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Work in Progress / Doubt - Screens & Video

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bergice
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:27
GREAT!
This looks like a really quality graphic game!
It really does!

But, you must tell me...
HOW DO YOU MAKE THOSE AMAZING REALTIME SHADOWS WITH SUCH HIGH FPS!?!?!


Programming Recorder: 3,0 months of dark basic
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:44
looks sweet
i know wath you mean i dont even have 10% of the time i want for my pet project that is on ice right now an rts game.
as it was hard as iam not that good coder with the hard core coding.
let me know if you nead some help with textures?
cheers
Math89
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:47
I'm just using one of the evolved shadow shader. I think it's just because my Geforce 7600 is good.
And the fps isn't that high. Actually I don't think 30-40 fps is really acceptable...

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:54
your right as you well have planned alot of action going on.
there must be an way to not update the shadows in every cycle to improve fps?
Deathead
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 13:11
Quote: "Actually I don't think 30-40 fps is really acceptable...
"

I wouldn't really care. As great as this game looks I'd be happy watching it freeze when I walk.lol But actually, 30fps can run quite smoothly. So I would worry if it goes below 30. Then your in some trouble.lol


Darktib
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 19:09
Wow!

Very impressive...

Ca a bien évolué depuis la news du forum fr...


RTS game project : |||%
Plougot
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 19:58 Edited at: 27th Jun 2008 16:06
Sooooooooooooo...
As math89 said, we're getting back to work...
The AI is slowly evolving...
For now, bots can get to cover when they're attacked, and they still try to reach their destination, going from cover to cover, and sometimes getting a little bit killed...
The fps is quite low, but we're working on some improvments, and graphical effects can be disabled one by one in order to have a smooth game
The AI will soon (well i mean ... i hope ) be functional, and I think I will post a video to show you.







bergice
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 22:22
Probably the best game i have ever seen


Programming Recorder: 3,0 months of dark basic
Anonymous User
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 10:47
So how exactly do you get the shadows working; shadow mapping, stencil shadows or deferred shading?

???
Math89
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 12:33
It's quite simple : I put a camera on the light source and then render a depth map. And during the final render, this depthmap is projected onto the scene. The shader compares the distance stored in the depthmap with the actual distance of the pixel to find out if it is on the shadow.


I'd like to have deferred shading, but the Evolved's one is sometimes inaccurate and very slow (I think it's because of dbpro)

Inspire
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 05:30
This looks stunning, although the weapons don't look nearly as good as everything else.

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Anonymous User
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 09:50
So your using multiple depth maps. I might take a look at that.

???
Math89
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 12:07
I actually use only one depthmap, because there is only one shadow (multiple shadows would be too slow).

Emphasoft
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 17:41
this looks amazing. I noticed in the video that you had a nice explosion effect. How did you simulate that with Newton? this is something that has stumped me, so if you could share your method, it would be appreciated

My WIP:
Math89
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 18:01
Well, you just have to add a force to your dynamic objects (finding its direction using atanfull, and power depending on the distance).

Homey the Clown
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 23:47
im curious about the AI... what is the concept behind it? pathfinding i could figure out but what about taking cover? do they act as a team? ...hopefully your not using dark ai and can explain. im sure there is some priority system somewhere in there...

Homey

"I don't think so... Homey don't play that."
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Homey the Clown
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 00:37
oh ya, you could probably deal without the animation plugin. im sure you could code you own in your game engine. what file formats are you using for your models? i know that .X files (non-binary) have animation data like keyframes in them... i want to say that they are located more towards the end of the file but i forgot. there is a book i have called "Advanced Animation with DirectX".the example code is in c++ but im sure you could translate it to dbp or whatever because the concept and the algorithms are pretty straight forward. all you really need is a function that can extract the keyframe data(.X files arent too hard to read from) and then just interpolate between you keyframes hopefully with some time-based movement and...voila! you got some morphing animation. You can blend animations too but im not aware of how to do that currently.

just thought i would let ya know,
Homey

"I don't think so... Homey don't play that."
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Deathead
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 12:20
Homey maybe you forgot but there is a edit button? Nice work Math89, looks very polished.


Plougot
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 13:31
Indeed, we don't use Dark AI. First I have coded my own pathfinding algorithm. Well infact, i got 2 pathfinding algorithm. Let me explain : Bots belong to groups (we can make as many groups as we wish). Groups move via waypoint, called "waypointpath" or "wpp" that we put on the map. It uses more or less the A* Algorithm. When groups have found their way, bots starts to move (with a different latency for each one) from a wpp to another. To move, they use my other pathfinder, wich is "3D" : i use the sparky dll to determine a path in the level. It is very efficient on short distances, but could be slow on large ones, that's why i got the "wpp" pathfinder.
We've also another sort of waypoints, so called "waypointdef", or "wpd", that are used to point covers, and to describe the kind of the cover. Those wpd are linked to "wpp-fathers", so that when bots are attacked, they just check which wpp are close and then choose in the list of wpd that they provide, following some criterions.
that's more or less the principle.

For the animation, we use the advanced animation plug in, because dbpro is very slow, and pretty inaccurate with animations. We (or, more precisely, math89) could use the method you describe, but I am not sure it would be faster, and it is still pretty complicated. He's not particularly good at mathematics, neither am I...
But it is always nice to share ideas and advices, and if you really think we're missing something there, tell me

Plougot
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 13:35
I forgot to add. For now, bots don't really act as a team, but all the system is planned that way, and when i will have crushed the little bugs i got, it will be pretty easy to handle a team play, inside a group, and even between multiple groups

Homey the Clown
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 16:31
@deathead: ...good call. i think that was a first.

@plougot: alright so basically your group waypoints and cover waypoints are predefined in some editor? thats pretty neat. ya i didnt know you had the advanced animation plugin im at work and kinda skimmed through this...dont want to spend too much time... lol

Homey

"I don't think so... Homey don't play that."
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Plougot
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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 20:53
I finished debugging the IA, so it doesn't crash anymore (whaouh !). We still have some framerates problems, but we will find some solutions ...
It will probably become playable soon. We could even say it is playable already.
We'll be able to show you something soon !

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 22:19
sounds awesome
i hope you guys finish this project as to many yust vanishes that is this good.
cheers
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 6th Jul 2008 16:33
iam yust wondering as iam not shure that this have bin mentioned?
do you guys have an working version of evolveds shadowmapping with multiple lights?
as iam currently working on this as an learning experience
currently only 2 lights but are struggeling with merging the 2 depthmaps and 2 separate projection matrixes.
as creating 2 or more separate depthmaps is simple but getting them to work together is the hard part.
if you have some pointers for me to get in the right direction.
as i planned to make this an public shader with dbp sample.
programing maniac
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Posted: 6th Jul 2008 17:16
Quote: "I noticed in the video that you had a nice explosion effect. How did you simulate that with Newton?"

Quote: "Well, you just have to add a force to your dynamic objects (finding its direction using atanfull, and power depending on the distance)."


I have tried to use newton, and i got really confused. Is there some sort of tutorial, or something to explain it all? I mean, it looks like both of you know how to use newtons physics.

That looks like an awesome game!!!! I really am impressed by the graphics, also the physics. Can't wait to play!

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Math89
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Posted: 6th Jul 2008 23:48
Quote: "do you guys have an working version of evolveds shadowmapping with multiple lights?"

We have multiple lights, but only one shadow at once. It's already slow enough...

Quote: "Is there some sort of tutorial, or something to explain it all?"

The only tutorials are the ones provided with the Newton wrapper. You really need to know how to use Newton before trying to make some advanced effects with it.

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 6th Jul 2008 23:57 Edited at: 7th Jul 2008 00:05
hmm where affraid of that as i currently get 240 fps but havent got the second shadow to work correctly still.
are you guys using an modified version of evolveds old shader or the latest from his site?
as the differrence is huge in fps when you compare the one from ultimate shaders pack and the one from his site.
http://evolveduk.googlepages.com/Index.html
he have done some magic to it as the speed is alot differrent when you compare?
as all the shaders on the site.
cheers
ps.....
one of the differences he have made is using only one camera for both the prjection matrix and the depthmap.
the old used camera 0 for projection matrix and camera 1 for depthmap.
and have an separate matrix for the light angle.
the new on uses the camera angle as light angle.
only some of the few changes i found.
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 00:09
We're going to need a playable tech demo of this, stat. Just two rooms would be fine. Those screenshots are showing extremely low FPS, and I don't want to get too hyped if the game can't be played on anything but the best computers

programing maniac
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 03:22
Quote: "The only tutorials are the ones provided with the Newton wrapper."


which tutorials? And what wrapper, the one for DBPro by walaber?

Thanks.


www.globalwarfare.tk
flashing snall
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 03:35
Woa. This looks nice man


This is my WIP, not even ready for a WIP thread yet though.http://smallgroupproductions.com/
JoelJ
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 05:54
are you using the DBP built in text/print commands for the 2d text on the screen? That will slow you down. There's a dll out there somewhere that uses D3D to render all your text, and it's a LOT faster.

[center]
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 11:26
I know that math 89 and his friend are really experienced with dbp so they probably know this already.
the text command is better then the print command but its not the problem in there case.
its the complexity of light shadows and their ai together that makes the drawbacks.
as i noticed with the shadowmapping so if you get fps around 30-40 so does this code sadly enough pull down the fps more to only half of that.
something i noticed while testing differrent sync rates on the shadowmapping.
but as long you set the sync rate above this to 40> so is everything great.
and yust to mention it so does dbps 2d commands get ridiculessly slow with vista as i had to scrapp some of my projects that used text and draw box command alot when i got vista.
cheers
Math89
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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 22:10
Quote: "Those screenshots are showing extremely low FPS"

Actually, the framerate may be a little higher (the version that Plougot used was bugged) but don't expect a miracle... DBpro is slow and sometimes reacts strangely : there is almost no speed difference between a low and high screen resolution even with full screen shaders, excluding unnecessary objects is inefficient, reducing textures with the extra flag on the load image command doesn't change the performances...
Nevertheless, keep in mind that every effect can be disabled, and the game can run on a geforce 5700 with the lowest settings.


Quote: "which tutorials? And what wrapper, the one for DBPro by walaber?"

Yes, the Walaber's wrapper. There are some examples of use but unfortunately, the first one is too simple and then, the second one is really hard for a beginner.

Quote: "are you using the DBP built in text/print commands for the 2d text on the screen?"

Yes, I'm using the dbpro commands. I know Cloggy's dll is far better, but since the text is only for debugging purpose it doesn't really matter.

Airslide
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Posted: 8th Jul 2008 00:14
Quote: "Yes, I'm using the dbpro commands. I know Cloggy's dll is far better, but since the text is only for debugging purpose it doesn't really matter."


You might want to try cloggy's for the debug text anyways - I found that with the default text you'll loose a few precious frames just displaying debug info sometimes.

Anonymous User
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 11:16
If dbpro gets too slow you can always convert your project to to DarkGDK. My last project had it's fps nearly doubled by using the GDK instead of DBPro.

???
Math89
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 12:49
I don't really want to change 12k lines of code... Especially because GDK isn't up to date.
But if it's the only solution...

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 17:38 Edited at: 16th Jul 2008 17:39
math you dont think the path finding could be an solution to optimize as i have found it to be demanding to?
i experimented alot with not doing search paths in every loop with my rts and was an fps saver.
using dims to store it in betwen searches.
will probably be alot of boring work as it was for me
cheers

ps
i made an test with only an fixed nr of searches per loop and an counter so that not only the first ones found there path.
Math89
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 19:23
Actually, the pathfinding is really fast : waypoints are stored in an array and each bot has a list of waypoints to follow. The only moment where you can notice a slow down is when a whole team of bots is spawned (and we are not completely sure it is due to the pathfinding ).

The main problem is that Object In Screen uses to give wrong values (almost always 1) and all my optimizations belong to this command, for example, checking lights and particles emitters visibility.

kaedroho
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 22:09 Edited at: 16th Jul 2008 22:15
Quote: "The main problem is that Object In Screen uses to give wrong values (almost always 1) and all my optimizations belong to this command"


Most of my optimisations are to do with other things. Like LOD, less trig, etc.

Math89
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 23:39
Well, for LOD, we have found out that even excluding bots objects doesn't make any difference... Even the level itself has got some kind of zone-based culling.

And I can guarantee you that lights are the first thing to optimize : using normal mapping multiply the polygons count by the number of lights.

Homey the Clown
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Posted: 18th Jul 2008 22:03
so do you know what part of the code is slowing the game down? if not perhaps you could write a function that measures how much time it takes to complete a section of code....or better yet the framerate of that section of code.

"I don't think so... Homey don't play that."
-Homey D. Clown
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Lukas W
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Posted: 19th Jul 2008 03:26
The game looks very good!

Quote: "The main problem is that Object In Screen uses to give wrong values (almost always 1) and all my optimizations belong to this command, for example, checking lights and particles emitters visibility."

Maybe this would work:
Get the object x/z position and the player x/z position stored.
Call atanful or something to get the angle between the four points.
Say with the camera, you can see everything in front of you up til 80degrees left or right.
If the angle difference of current camera y angle and the y angle you recieved from atanfull is over 80degrees then it is outside the screen.

I don't know if it will work faster though, or if it would even work. Just a thought.


Anyway, good luck with the project. I haven't read the whole thread yet but images looks amazing!

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
Mr Kohlenstoff
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Posted: 19th Jul 2008 23:34
@Lukas: This method would just care about each objects center, so if a walls center for example would be outside screen but you should actually be able to see its border, your method would hide the object though. I don't know how exactly DBP handles the problem, but it would be possible to be done by using simple Bounding boxes or spheres (of course invisible ones just to check if they are "colliding" with the Field of View).
I didn't read the whole thread, so I probably don't tell you anything new when mentioning things like Portal culling etc. Level of Detail might be senseless due to the way of leveldesign you are using.
However, the game looks great, I hope you'll find a way to speed it up.

Math89
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Posted: 19th Jul 2008 23:48
I've speeded up the game a bit by fixing a bug with the shadows, but it's a minor improvement. We already have a culling system but on such little levels, it's not the most useful thing.

Lukas, your method could work great for 2D, but in 3D, it's a bit more complex. I don't need anything more than a sphereInScreen(x,y,z, size) function to exclude unnecessary lights.

Homey, the slowest part is the rendering so there is not a lot I can do about that (except lowering the graphics...). By the way, the update 7.0 has a new option for Set Camera To Image that can improve the shadow processing (better accuracy with a faster execution).
I just need to wait for the bug fix about the disappearing objects...

kaedroho
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 22:33 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 22:34
Ive done what Lukas W said but in 3D. and please dont ask how i did it. im just telling you that its possible.

Plougot
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 22:24
hoo, thank you so much, this is a really useful piece of information
Did you know that i made in one week my own remake of the last Unreal Tournament, with better graphics and a better game play, 126 maps and more than 87 vehicles ? Please, don't ask how i did it. I am just telling you that it's possible.
Seriously, did you think you were going to be credible ?

-----

So, we didn't give up, and are still working on some major improvments. Math89 is working on the multiplayer system, and i am currently working on facial animation (plus a randomized dialog system).
We'll have some stuffs to show you soon !

kaedroho
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Posted: 4th Sep 2008 18:06 Edited at: 4th Sep 2008 18:07
Math89,

do you still need the 'sphereinscreen(x,y,z, size)' function? As im currently remaking it for my engine and i will be happy to let you use it in your project.

Plougot,

Quote: "Did you know that i made in one week my own remake of the last Unreal Tournament, with better graphics and a better game play, 126 maps and more than 87 vehicles ? Please, don't ask how i did it. I am just telling you that it's possible."


Can i see it?

Math89
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Posted: 4th Sep 2008 18:28
Well, why not ? But I think there is already this kind of function in the forum, it's a set of frustum culling commands.
And I think Plougot was just joking about your last message.


Our project is getting better and better, the multiplayer system allows players to move and shoot each other. It's far smoother than I expected, and I think it's going to be fun.

Math89
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 15:21 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 15:21
The multiplayer system is almost finished, now. We will release a beta version of the game during the week. This beta will have a single player level (with AI) and a multi player one. The gameplay isn't really advanced so it's not as funny as it should but it's just the beginning.



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nackidno
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 16:40
Very wow wow!

- Elias, Damezean, Nackidno, Wonderboy

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