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Program Announcements / [DBPro] TERSCULPT

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Van B
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 09:40
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Pagan, It can work in 2 ways depending on what engine code you use, the editor uses 1 single terrain object with several limbs, which are 16x16 tile sections of terrain. The limbs are positioned and moulded to the terrain to suit the camera position, uses a heightmap array to store the heights so it's not necessary to load terrain meshes. There is a method that uses 1 big terrain mesh with a simple LOD (detail deminishes with distance), the limb system is more robust though I think.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 11:26
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Van,

Are you experiencing a major slowdown when editing the terrain? I wasn't to sure if this was fixed or planned on being fixed. Great program overall. I'll definitely find use for this app.


Cheers,
Dave


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 16:36
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Yes, we all do (read above ). I'm going to try and inject a culling system into his... not very confident about it but I'll give it a try. Hopefully this will help a bit of the slowdown since more computational power can be geared towards that.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Van B
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 16:58
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Yeah, the vertex adjustments can be slow, but speeding things up is very tricky. One thing that might be an option is to have an overlay mesh to represent the area being edited - then only update the terrain when the mouse button is unclicked. There's already a 32x32 terrain mesh, so I'll see if I can add this then upload new source code if it improves matters.

Sid,
Good to know your seeing ways to develop this, but I would suggest doing your culling experiments with the tiled engine code rather than the editor. The same goes to anyone really, I mean I have an idea for a foliage system that would only be in the engine itself, relies on the texture masks so it can be automatic. Hope you get it working.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Van B
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 19:11
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Replacement source and bin's attached (1mb).

Added that 32x32 patch idea and it seems to have made a big improvement on my PC at least, had to restrict the terrain texture updating as that was causing a slowdown, but it's about 2.5 times faster. There are a couple of niggles with the patch though... the patch terrain part has to have zdepth disabled, so it is visible when lowering terrain. I've set it to update the terrain properly when you release the mouse, so it only ever gets ugly when editing terrain, it will update if you edit a big area though. I think the performance improvements are worth these niggles though.

One major tweak this time is the smoothness of editing, I've changed the heightmap to a float array and tied all the editing to the system speed - all in all it should be a lot smoother now.

Also, fixed a silly bug that stopped the contour display working, so press SHIFT to view the terrain contours in nice red bands, quite handy as it can be difficult to guage the depth of things at that RTS camera angle.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 20:06
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Quote: "Good to know your seeing ways to develop this, but I would suggest doing your culling experiments with the tiled engine code rather than the editor."


What negative side effects do you have in mind if culling is done with the editor? For my needs, I need to squeeze more FPS out of it before I start adding in objects in the editor, otherwise it will bog down more. The FPS while NOT editing the terrain or painting it is perfect, beyond perfect even. But as FPS is already down to ~8-13 when editing (molding or painting), I'm afraid that with objects scattered across the level such as trees, buildings and npc's, that the FPS while editing will drop even furthur, causing the editing/painting to become so choppy it can't be used anymore.

I played with the idea of doing the editor in one program, and doing objects in another, but it defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do; provide a all in one development package for making the terrain, texturing it, placing objects, adjusting the terrain to better blend the objects into and it then wrapping it up in one file type for my game engine to load. And actually, I'll be modding the terrain part of my engine to your engine, seeing as it's running beautifully at the moment

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 02:53
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VanB,

Much better after the update I was receiving about 65 fps while editing the terrain that was alot better than the 6 fps I was receiving before

Cheers,
Dave


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 07:31
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What are computer specs RF? Just wondering. The editor runs well, as you said, on my new dell laptop. But this desktop I'm still experiencing around 9FPS while editing.

Desktop - X1300, Pentium D 2.8Ghz, 1GB RAM.

Laptop - Core 2 Duo 2.2Ghz, 2GB RAM, Nvidia Geforce 8600M DX10 card

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 08:15
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Gah! - take that X1300 and kick it down the street!, no wonder your only getting 9fps .

It's probably the shader dragging the frame rate down in your case Sid, perhaps running it without the shader would improve matters, like disable the shader when editing the terrain, and just use it when you need to paint.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 18:34
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VanB,

You could add a MMB control that would change the radius of the editing cursor, this would be very valuable.


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Van B
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 18:47 Edited at: 13th Feb 2008 18:48
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Hmmm, middle mouse rotates the view already, BUT I really don't like it that way, it feels clunky as hell. What if I made it so that if the mouse is far from the screen centre MMB will rotate the screen, but if it's close to the centre MMB will change the cursor size. I'm thinking that a drag would be pretty cool, as I think everyone uses the drag to move around the terrain anyway instead of the cursor keys.

Will give it a shot and see how it is. There are a couple of things that I could do to it before uploading a new version properly though, so if it works out I'll simply upload replacement code and exe like I did with that last version.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 19:13
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Quote: "You could add a MMB control that would change the radius of the editing cursor, this would be very valuable."


You can change the size of the editing radius, use the numpad. 1-9. Unless you meant something else...

And yea, the camera control is odd, don't worry, I have some nice camera code I'll inject also.

and LOL yea... it probably is the X1300. Hehehe

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 21:36 Edited at: 13th Feb 2008 23:00
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Made a little video of me making little terrain then running around it, bound to appeal to Bob Ross fans .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rndPdaTClJ8

New update attached, now if you click in the middle of the screen and drag you change the cursor radius, otherwise you rotate the terrain, but the rotation is so much better now .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 05:49 Edited at: 14th Feb 2008 05:49
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WOW, that was an amazing update. My FPS on my desktop went from 9FPS to 23FPS while editing, and from 4FPS to 14FPS while painting. Those are some very acceptable numbers there. Very nice!

What rotates the camera now? You changed it around and now I'm lost lol. And, where the heck in your code is all of your camera code? I went hunting and it seems it's scattered out many different funtions/subs. I wanted to inject some code in so I could fly around the editor instead of being stuck in one angle and I can't seem to find one area in your camera code to do so. I'm rem'd out lots of lines, but the part of your camera code still seems to break through and beat out mine.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 08:17
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Actually I have to make a little adjustment to the loading code in the editor as it's broken right now (previously saved terrains will still work), but while I'm doing that I'll highlight the camera control code. Will have it uploaded in about 30 mins.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 08:36 Edited at: 14th Feb 2008 08:48
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Ok, new DBA file attached.

I think the most confusing thing is how camy# is used as a zoom, so everything camera related affects the camx# and camz#, the cursor keys change these variables and so does clicking and dragging with the right mouse button. Camy# is changed using the scroll wheel, but my camera system is like...

position camera camx#,0,camz#
rotate camera 60,yang,0
move camera -camy#

The actual movement variables are quite fiddly, especially the cursor key part:

xmv#=0
ymv#=0
if upkey()=1 then xmv#=25.0
if downkey()=1 then xmv#=-25.0
if leftkey()=1 then ymv#=25.0
if rightkey()=1 then ymv#=-25.0
camx#=newxvalue(camx#,yang,xmv#*elapsed#)
camz#=newzvalue(camz#,yang,xmv#*elapsed#)
camx#=newxvalue(camx#,yang-90,ymv#*elapsed#)
camz#=newzvalue(camz#,yang-90,ymv#*elapsed#)

This is so complex because it has to take the camera Y angle into account, if you press forward on the cursor keys it needs to work out X and Z movements for that, so it will be able to move forward in relation to the camera.

The camera is rotated by pressing the middle/both button around the edges of the screen, it's more like your dragging the terrain around to rotate it, I really like that compared to how it was before.

If you upload your camera control stuff, I'll include it in the next real build - plan to add a couple of things, like expanding the tool section so people have space to add their own buttons, but a camera mode menu where we can select RTS, FPS etc modes would be cool. If anyone has an idea for a camera mode they'd like to see then speak up now .

EDIT: Forgot to say, search for *** to find the bits of code relating to camera control.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?

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tschwarz
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 09:59
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TERSCULPT looks very good, been wanting to start to play around with terrains and this caught my eye. Your utube video shows that it's pretty easy to use and has a nice looking interface.

Thank you will download and take a look.

Terry
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 20:02
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Van, thanks for the updated source with some more comments. I was able to successfully get my camera code working after a lot of trial and error of 'rem'ing out certain things.

Please take a look at what I've done and make sure I haven't commented out anything vital to the rest of the program. There was a lot of dependencies here and there on some of the variables and I'm not 100% if everything is working together the way it suppose to still.

Different camera modes and custom tools would be cool indeed I'm going to definitely need an area in the menu for placing objects.

Also, with the camera being able to fly around now, there are a few glitches here and there with the water. I noticed that when lowering the terrain below sea level, you can't see the water until you either let go of the mouse button or mouse the cursor away from the area you lowered. It looks like this is due to the cursor texture becoming that of the texture around it (grass) while editing, thus blocking out the water. I dunno, take a look at it. I'll post a screenie if you want.

This editor is looking good!

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Feb 2008 21:25
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Will get a look at that as soon as Sid, but the disappearing water problem is kinda deliberate. The problem is that now the bulk of the editing is done on a patch of terrain which moves around with the cursor, that's what is blocking out the water - but the this is due to the patch being zdepth disabled. I had to do this, otherwise you wouldn't see the results of lowering the terrain as it would be underneath the existing terrain. Note that now the cursor will change colour, which might help a little - if the cursor centre is under water it will be red instead of yellow.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 15th Feb 2008 05:19
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Ah ok, that clears that problem up then lol.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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trogdor
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Posted: 15th Feb 2008 06:14
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@Van B, Just unpacked TERSCULPT and took a quick look.

Unsurprisingly great job

I'll play with it some more tomorrow.
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 13:51
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Holly crapp van this is great alot of buggs here and there but you have yust saved me a whole year of learning to do mesh terrains and paint textures straight on.
wait a second are yust going to delete my own editor and converting myself to an van b worshiper
i have always wanting to do terrains like this but are to crappy so was stuck on using the ordinary matrix.
its the latest releases on the front page?
cheers
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Van B
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 16:25
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The front page version is quite a bit slower than the update, which is only a few posts up. I plan to upload the new version tonight.

Added a heightmap export and improved the import (can specify height ranges, much better control. Gonna add support for advanced terrain export. Also changed the terrain generators, they're much more useful now, the current ones don't really produce terrains that I think people could use for much, the new ones should fare much better.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Roxas
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 16:49
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There is one proplem that most terrain editors buggs me.. Can you do caves?


Click For Details!
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 17:08
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hi van again i was wondering over why you dont use windows own file dialog to load and save files?
i have an very good function that calls windows native file dialog box with only dark basics own native commands.
that works really well i got it from an person on the forum.
i could be wrong but think it was kelebbs codecorner or something.
have lost the name of the nice guy when i recently bought my new laptop.
by the way i get great fps in the editor 60-80 and 38-50 while using tools.
cheers
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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 17:45
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Don't know if you still have speed issues but I resolved mine. I converted my data array to memblocks. My FPS went from 16 to 106! That is when I am editing the vertices every cycle.
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 16th Feb 2008 18:05
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that sounds great batvink
you couldt post the code and maybe give us dummys a bit about memblocks.
memblocks are a bit in the dark for me but iam not that goood with programming either.
cheers
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 17th Feb 2008 03:56 Edited at: 17th Feb 2008 04:06
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Quote: "There is one proplem that most terrain editors buggs me.. Can you do caves?"


That's called subtractive editing, and I believe the Unreal Ed does that. I haven't seen any examples of it around here, but I'm sure it's entirely possible with DBP. Might be pretty slow though

Quote: "you couldt post the code and maybe give us dummys a bit about memblocks."


Poor van has done enough, try researching about using memblock meshes. Here's a list to get you started

Required Reading for Memblock Mesh's/Terrain


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=87105&b=7
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=118418&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=120618&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=121427&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=100645&b=1
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=codebase_view&i=ff622260deaf05fa7890237516f9147f
(Don't forget to download the media with the above link)
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=108704&b=1

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BatVink
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Posted: 17th Feb 2008 18:00
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Just to clarify...my memblock reference was to saving data regarding my objects, but not the actual mesh itself. So I have, for example, a complex object and I store it's X/Z vertex positions in an array, along with some other relevant data. From that I go on to manipulate my object.

Putting this data in a memblock and using some simple offset mathematics to get it back out gives me the speed boost. Prior to this, I was furiously generating and deleting array elements, and it wasn't too happy.

Memblock meshes are an extension of this, but using the commands to convert them to and from mesh data.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 02:10
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Van, have you gotten a chance to review that .dba file yet? Just wondering.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Mugen Wizardry
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 05:13
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Yo Van, I have taken it upon myself to edit your source code a little bit, so that it automatically creates a readme file that the user can choose to read either now or later, using Aaron's Windows GUI plugin for the alert boxes & such. I am having a bit of a problem with it so I shall submit an example of the source code & exe tomorrow morning.

Thanks again!

~M.W~
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 08:04
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Sid, not yet, but I will get that done tonight, everything else is done, left the new camera modes to last to give people time to request a specific mode.

Mugen, sounds cool - I couldn't get a windows file selector working, maybe it's something I'm doing that stops windows GUI's from working. Anyhoo will see when you upload your source - perhaps it could be implemented into this build.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 16:51 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 16:51
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Hey Van B, is the update that'll let you export .bmp heightmaps ready yet? If not, any idea when it WILL be done?

...but I am the ferret king!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! tremble before my ferret minions!

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 17:00
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Yeah that's in, should be uploaded tonight unless I get hit by a bus or something .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 17:32 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 22:19
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hi van i have fixed your sprite markers on the gui to work correctly if intrested as they worked right when moving side ways.
but where reversed up and down compared to how the camera moved.
and have implented an loading bar that shows exactly the time of loading maps and saving them.
and have working code with the windows own file dialog for both saving and loading.
let me know as an simple wannabe coder could probably not help that much as you probably already have solved it
cheers
edited................
OK added wath i mean in the rar check it if you want and use wath you think is good enough.
i cant take credit for the file dialog dba file as it was made by another one that i dont remember but i have used it for an while and it is really simple and easy to use.
wath i have done and want you to check is
camera markers works correctly
load and save dialog that user can both cancel and skip writing .TER as it detects this in that case and fills that in.
and loading bar when loading and saving maps as it helps alot to know how much is left.
cheers

emailed you the files instead beacuse of the uploading errors
te

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 18:16
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Cool, upload a DBA and I'll get as much as I can transferred onto the new version - cheers for your contributions . I think I fixed the map cursor thing already but had no luck with API dialogs.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 18:33 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 19:36
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how the loading bar looks.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 21:12
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Thanks, am looking at this now, got it all download, now just to shift your changes over, loading bar looks cool .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 21:35 Edited at: 18th Feb 2008 22:58
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thanks van
i dont understand why i cant upload zip and arj files to the forum?
they show up ok on my computer but when trying to upload them they get screwed?
iam thinking about my wireless router if it somehow decrypts them as its brand new and i have heard about some routers that is locked in some way when trying to upload compressed files.
i have a lot of small trouble these days.
i bought an new computer and started to use vista home premium for the first time a short while ago.
and an wireless router as its an laptop
cheers
edit-----------------------------------------------------
Van could you help me out as i belive that i have bin an fool?
attachments can max be 10 mb and if bigger you have to use the file uploader right?
yust wondering as before wath i can recall so havent i uploaded files larger then 10 mb as iam mostly coding for my own pleasure.
cheers
all the files is in the attachement now and yust belowe 10 mb

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 23:59 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 00:13
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i have always heard here on the forum that dds images are best for performance so i experimented a bit and made this little function for the textures.


and replace the old loading lines with

i made it mostly yust for fun as i aint that hardcore with specs and so on but have heard alot on the forum that dds are the best?
cheers

if iam not wrong so is dds best for lod terrains?
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jason p sage
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:21
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@Cliff M. - Whether your hardcore or not - the fact that you READ FIRST - and help based on what you've learned - that's Great.

DDS I've heard are top notch -

Whether Van B will look at this adds it to the app or not - he gets executive priviledge - but I commend your efforts either way!

...steps off soap box... was just overwhelmed with grats seeing everyone pitch into this project!

You started a revolution Van B! Good Man! Cheers!


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
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Van B
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:30
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Here's that update, lots of changes.

I decided to turn Cliff's code into functions, like to draw a progress bar you just call the 'lbar' function with the desired text and a float (0.0 - 1.0) for the amount of bar to show. Did something similar with the file selector too. There's also a menu for the camera mode, slots for user tools, AT and heightmap export... Best just to have a play and re-adapt the code for the bits I've most likely missed!

Thanks Sid and Cliff for contributing.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 00:38 Edited at: 19th Feb 2008 00:42
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I often use DDS, but really I find them a bit inconvenient when at WIP stages, it's quite an obtuse format. I'd suggest converting your textures when your finished with them, not only does it provide a little security but the file size savings are amazing. Maybe not so much of a saving with DBPro's built in export, there's a nice plugin for PSP and PhotoShop by nVidia that lets you specify mip levels and stuff.

Thing with terrains is that default mip mapping is not really intended for them, so if you can get a good DDS format for them, with more mip levels, perhaps even fading out the mip levels to alpha, there's a few tricks you can do. DDS files can even store multiple images, like DDS can store lots of images at a time, and it's used for cube maps as well as mip maps. Also, if you have DDS format files already they load faster than loading a standard bitmap then creating mipmaps for it through when applying an image to an object then setting the mipmap mode.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 19:30
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looks good van
only one thing you have missed
the code that puts in the .ter extension after the file if the user forgets to and only writes the file name without extension.
cheers

if you check my code so is ther simple code that checks for this

ps...
i have an idea for an floating and movable tools selection if intrested.
that the user can move around like an window.
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Van B
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 21:09
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Hehe, I knew I'd forget something!.

Here's a replacement fsel$ function:



I don't really have the time right now to maintain this properly, so please feel free to upload your own variations here, I'd love to see people take this and totally change it to suit themselves.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 21:33
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i will probably try to first finish my old rts engine using an ordinary matrix and the get back to this after that.
and use the old engine as an learning exploration to se wath to improve for the next one using this terrain editor.
as the old rts is anyway an cartoon rts.
so dosent nead that fancy terrain for that.
cheers
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 22:38
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Quote: "I don't really have the time right now to maintain this properly, so please feel free to upload your own variations here, I'd love to see people take this and totally change it to suit themselves."


Thanks Van for all your hard work. I think this is the most beneficial, free, thing the forum has ever seen, hands down.

@All: It would be cool to see some variations and additions of this editor! I myself plan on adding in the ability to place objects in addition to what features the editor already has. That will mean all editing and level development work can be done all at once.

If anyone else is heading in my direction with the object placement stuff, I'd love to work together on it. You could post here or email me if you'd like to team up. Remember, two heads are better than one, and the faster this feature gets done, the faster you all can use it

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 09:11
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Sid, that would be a very useful version of this tool.

Van, Thanks again for this great product!

Cheers,
Dave


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Van B
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 09:47
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No worries guys, I enjoyed developing it.

I just got a new A4 graphics tablet yesterday, just sitting with it on my lap doodling terrains, now I wonder if anyone has a way to guage the pen pressure in DBPro!.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Feb 2008 20:32
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Time to make a .dll van

I'll start looking into the object placement stuff this weekend guys.

I was thinking about if I wanted to be able to place an object, and then place an object on top of it. Would any of you use that? I'm trying to figure out how to do that and how to read the height since it needs to be dropped on the highest point where there is an object/terrain. The closest thing I came up with was using a raycast on the spot where the user clicks to drop the object, and the object would drop down until it hit the point of intersection.

One thing at time though. I'm just going to concentrate on placing objects, and nothing fancy =]

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
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