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Work in Progress / StarScape One

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 20th Jan 2009 17:26
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@HK 48 Well i had a similar idea before where there is four classes, Scout, which is the smallest and weakest, Fighter, which is the "normal" size for a starfighter, Frigate, which is like those frigates in star wars and Capital Ship, which is the best class and their size resembles a star destroyer. Also all of these classes are customisable so you can add weapons and all that.

@tha_rami Thanks! I agree with the lack of space games around though .

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HK 48
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Posted: 20th Jan 2009 22:07
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i meant for the character so he has to be a certain rank to pilot certain things

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 20th Jan 2009 22:15
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Ohh you mean like for example if you advance 10 levels you goto the next class of ship? That is a good idea thanks

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 21st Jan 2009 12:58
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Overall, I find this very impressive!

The one thing that strikes me about this is how badly out of proportion the planets seem. Either that, or the ship is insanely huge. Planets are tens of thousands of kilometers in diameter, after all.

Someone also talked about space physics and I agree. Proper three-dimensional vector movement would be a lot more interesting than Star Wars airplane dynamics, in my opinion.
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Robert The Robot
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Posted: 21st Jan 2009 13:15
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Maybe you could make the proper space physics an option, so the player can select "Realistic Mode" or "Cinema Mode". The 3d vector movement might be a little unsettling for a novice pilot - imagine spinning round 180 degrees and finding yourself moving "backwards", when in normal aircraft physics you would expect to find yourself moving forwards!

And by the way - this is looking far better than the first demo you posted (how soon to the next one? )

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jan 2009 16:30
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Starwraith 3D Games offers an option between proper physics and 'arcade physics'. I personally prefer that system anyway, so I would recommend you go the same way. Either that or only proper physics.


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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 21st Jan 2009 16:49
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@entomophobiac Yeah i noticed how small the planets seemed to be, the reason it was like this is because when they are larger the ghosted atmosphere effect would be "overlapped" by the planet texture so it ends up with a really unrealistic effect, however i have rewritten the planet system and now they are a more realistic size. Also when i posted the first demo i was experimenting on how to simulate the "drifting in space" effects but i never implented it but now its finished and it will be featured in the next demo

@Robert The Robot & tha_rami Thats quite a good idea, i'll probably add that, thanks

Oh and i cant really tell how long its gunna take because i tried last time and got it an entire month off what i expected but expect it coming within 2-3 weeks or maybe quicker if i have more free time.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 16:02
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I think the interesting challenge in any space game -- and I'm working on such a concept myself when I have the time -- is to make proper physics and still make it interesting.

A lot of factors need consideration, howevever.

Distance --> Encounters should be at vast distances. Not WWII bomb raid distances.

Sensors --> There's no stealth in space. For some hard facts, refer to the excellent Atomic Rockets website, here: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/.

Cover --> Space is a huge void of nothing, really. The word "space" is there for a reason. Asteroid fields are huge open areas with an occasional rock and not a place you can hide in. Because of this, the actual setting needs to be made interesting. Space stations, moons -- all of it.

Scope --> It takes seven days to go to the moon with existing technology, today. Not to mention how long it takes to go to the nearest other planet, Mars. With sci-fi engines, it would be a lot faster, but it's still a sense of scope that is extremely important.
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 17:20
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Wow thanks for all that info, that will help alot with the realism and scale of the game. Thanks

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tha_rami
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 23:18
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The balance between realism and fun is important though, methods like fictional warp devices and time compression are oftenly seen, and artistic license is oftenly taken in regards to environments. Unless you're making Orbiter, there's no reason why a space game can't take a lot of artistic license in regard to combat distance (its no fun getting a message "COMPUTER LOCK ON", then press fire to destroy an object far beyond where you can see).

A realistic mercenary sim probably won't be interesting to most people or fans of the genre.


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entomophobiac
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2009 08:45 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2009 08:49
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Thing here is to determine what aspects should be gameplay in the first place. If movement and positioning are important, you focus on those aspects and make thruster control or similar aspects your focus -- such as in Evochron. Where you also have the choice to vector-fly or not in a very smart way, I think. It's presented as an in-game option that you can alter on-the-fly.

If targeting and combat is the most important, there are many ways to make it interesting. What are the primary weapons? Missiles and lasers? How does a ship defend from them? Electronic countermeasures? Sandcasters or other particle obstacles? Counter-missiles?

You can always choose what aspects to make realistic. Orbiter has a million parameters that make it what it is, but a combat game can disregard much of it merely by saying "future" and forgetting the question. You can call it "artistic license" as much as you want, but in the end, mercenary and trading games have been done to death. Semi-realistic space simulators have not. So if nothing else, it's fairly unexplored territory. But you don't have to turn it into vast-distance four-day Honerverse broadside duels because of it.

Design, iterate, re-design and find a few main foci that you know work.

A good title that I think tried to have proper vector movement while still sticking to mercenary combat concepts was the game Independence War. Not sure how it plays, though. Only ever tried the second installation.

Either way, there are tons of options to explore in making it more or less simulation.

Oh, and the last thought: is space combat supposed to play like an airplane dogfight or like a submarine duel?

In my thinking, it should be far more of the latter and virtually none of the first. Unfortunately, the staples of modern Sci-Fi have tipped the scales more in the Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica directions. The second of those two is essentially the story of an airplane carrier in space.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 25th Jan 2009 01:30
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Batttlestar Galactica is pretty epic, if you ask me.

Heh, basically, what this boils down to is that you'll need to decide whether to go for cinematic sci-fi like BG or realistic scifi.


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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 25th Jan 2009 13:07
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Well my main plans are to make SSO fun, epic, with big battles, and fairly realistic in a good balance.

And also the demo is around two weeks away, be patient .

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 25th Jan 2009 14:05
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This is looking very good. I've been following it since you first posted it.

I'm a sci-fi nut, and have played all space adventure games to ever grace the gaming shelf's. Notably Eve Online and Earth and Beyond for several years each...and the one thing I always wanted was seem less planet decent.

Can't wait to tryout a demo. Keep up the work!
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 25th Jan 2009 14:52
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Quote: "the one thing I always wanted was seem less planet decent. "

Same here! Im trying to implent it into SSO at the moment but i removed the old decent to be replaced with a shader made one which i will eventually finish. There is already a demo posted in September if you go to the main post and look for "Old Demos"

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tha_rami
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Posted: 25th Jan 2009 22:10
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Quote: "I'm a sci-fi nut, and have played all space adventure games to ever grace the gaming shelf's. "

Tachyon and stuff? You should meet a guy at the Starwraith series, he really has all of the space-simulations .


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 13:39 Edited at: 26th Jan 2009 13:41
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You can actually play Tachyon on gametap now! And I have played almost every Star Wraith game to come out, I've actually been with the gamecreators since DBC was the only one.

Serial Velocity:
I saw the clip, but haven't downloaded the demo yet. Right now it looks like your entering a very small planet's atmo...I think the one thing that is going to make or break this effect is scale and perspective.

I'm just talking out of theory; but it feels like when you enter an atmo, or exit, there's almost a fish-bowl effect on the viewers perspective. It may just be me, or the countless movies I've seen, but I think to get it realistic enough, your going to have to really bend the characters view...hmm, not sure if I made sense or not
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 19:19 Edited at: 26th Jan 2009 19:20
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Quote: "but haven't downloaded the demo yet"

The demo is about 5 months old now so it doesnt really reflect how the game is at the moment. The newer demo is comming out real soon tho .

Quote: "I think the one thing that is going to make or break this effect is scale and perspective."

Yeah i noticed, the scale of the planet seemed too small but ive change the scale of the universe in SSO a little so the planets are more of a realistic size.

Quote: "there's almost a fish-bowl effect on the viewers perspective."

There is? I never noticed .

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 20:29
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Fish-bowl is probably not the best way to describe it I'm really not sure how to explain it without showing you..and there's now way I can show yah...hmm *sends telepathic image*..that work?
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 20:32
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Quote: "*sends telepathic image*..that work? "

Nope lol

Maybe you can find a youtube video about it?

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 21:22
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Heh, basically, what this boils down to is that you'll need to decide whether to go for cinematic sci-fi like BG or realistic scifi.

Oh, I like BSG very much! All I'm saying is that there are ways to simulate most realistic things without making them dull. It's all about the game design. The setting. Things like that.

There is a whole spectrum you can use, after all. Not just "either BSG or realistic."
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KISTech
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Posted: 26th Jan 2009 22:31
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I think Josh means "fish eye". Although that look may be a bit much, as it affects the entire image. I suspect a view where the ground just in view at the bottom of the screen would look fairly normal, but on the horizon you would see the curvature of the planet. The curvature would decrease as you go down towards the surface.

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Grandma
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Posted: 27th Jan 2009 09:42
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Quote: "Heh, basically, what this boils down to is that you'll need to decide whether to go for cinematic sci-fi like BG or realistic scifi."

BSG is filmed in documentary mode and made to appear as realistic as possible. At least that's what the people behind the show have stated and I believe they pulled it off more or less. What do you consider realistic when in terms of sci-fi then?

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
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tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Jan 2009 23:23
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Realistic sci-fi is you floating around in space, and at the splitsecond the system announcing you've been locked on, instantly being dead due to a laser being shot from half a lightyear away. Not, in any way, dogfight-like scenes with close-quarter combat. There's no use, nor place for that if there are laser-weapons available. Actually, it really would be pretty dull.


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draknir_
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Posted: 28th Jan 2009 02:32
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Quote: "Realistic sci-fi is you floating around in space, and at the splitsecond the system announcing you've been locked on, instantly being dead due to a laser being shot from half a lightyear away. Not, in any way, dogfight-like scenes with close-quarter combat. There's no use, nor place for that if there are laser-weapons available. Actually, it really would be pretty dull."


Really, the system wouldn't be able to tell you you're locked on. But for the rest yes. Realistic space combat would be incredibly dull to model as a simulation.

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KISTech
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Posted: 28th Jan 2009 03:17
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Quote: "Realistic sci-fi is you floating around in space, and at the splitsecond the system announcing you've been locked on, instantly being dead due to a laser being shot from half a lightyear away. Not, in any way, dogfight-like scenes with close-quarter combat. There's no use, nor place for that if there are laser-weapons available. Actually, it really would be pretty dull."


That's assuming the ability would exist to lock on to a target from very far away, and that the target doesn't have the ability to detect you before you lock on and deploy countermeasures.

Dogfights in space can be realistic. While the key problem with most sci-fi ships is they ignore momentum, (engines firing all the time) I could see maneuvering thrusters being used to point in the direction of travel desired, and then use the main engines to go that way. The new BSG does a fair job of that in most of their dogfight scenes. There's always someone that cuts their main engine, flips over and shoots. (usually Starbuck) It's certainly better done then the old BSG was.

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 28th Jan 2009 09:24
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Ender's Game anyone? I always thought their space combat accurately depicted how real life space combat will eventually be. It wasn't dull in the book imo.
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 29th Jan 2009 17:33
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Really, the system wouldn't be able to tell you you're locked on. But for the rest yes. Realistic space combat would be incredibly dull to model as a simulation.

It's all about focus. Rami misses an important point in his "half a light-year away" statement: it's half a light-year away. It'll take half a year for the laser to reach where you used to be.

The thing is that most space flight games focus on targeting, shooting and the kind of mechanics that would be expected from a World War 2 flight game. Or the more slow-paced "majestic" mode of aircraft carriers meeting each other at sea.

I think writing "realistic" space combat off as dull is a sign of lacking imagination.

Of course, I don't pretend to have the solutions to all of it, either. But I don't rule it out. In fact, I'd very much like to see it.

Proper vector movement. Intelligent sensor use. Decoy probes and tracking devices. Missiles exploding into shrapnel, for relativistic impact damage. Lasers versus sandcasters or other particle countermeasures. It would be all about intelligent use of countermeasures and placement (probably near asteroid rocks or space stations) rather than the instant gratification of the swooshing kind of space combat.

Personally, I think it sounds very interesting.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 29th Jan 2009 20:40
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What entomophobiac says is true, but I think that too, is the exact reason why it will be boring. Basically, it is sort of a tactical dogfight in permanent bullet time times 500.

On the other hand, the way he brings it it sounds like some sort of tactical simulation similar to DEFCON. That might be interesting in its own way, too.


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entomophobiac
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Posted: 30th Jan 2009 10:05
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It would require you more to interface with your instrumentats and onboard tools than aiming and clicking. Just like naval combat works in our time.

Identifying beacon signals, using signature identifications and applying long-range sensors to different areas of space. I think DefCon is a good way of looking at it!

Definitely interesting...
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draknir_
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Posted: 30th Jan 2009 10:12
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@entomophobiac: I agree with you that a space war game focused on strategy and tactics might not be utterly boring. I should have clarified that I meant the more standard 'flying ace - in space' games.

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 28th Feb 2009 19:14
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UPDATE

The battle demo is nearly completion, the reason its taking me so long is mainly because most of my freetime is being taken up with school work and such but i should be able to have it done very soon.

I also have a screenshot of the lovely new lazer effect that will be replacing the "energy ball" you shoot in the older demo.



To finish off, i also now have msn for any of you who want to talk with me. Find it below my sig.

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 15th Mar 2009 18:13 Edited at: 18th Mar 2009 20:03
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ANOTHER UPDATE

For the past week I have been completely rewriting how the game handles the planets and solar systems, before it was all hard coded into the game and it was hard to work with but i have finished a script based solar system model which basically reads an .ssf file (Solar System Format) and created a solar system based on that. Here is how an .ssf file looks:



The number right at the top is the version number of the script, so the game doesnt throw out errors if i use a dated script that doesnt have all the parameters of the newer version. In this script it creates a star called "My Star" and make its radius 1329000 km (roughly the suns size). the 1 after is how many planets there will be, in our example, theres only one planet so that will be 1. The following 0 is to tell the game whether to add a nebula background or not. 0 means no nebula, 1-3 is any of the nebula backgrounds in the game.

Right after we create a planet called "My Planet" which has a radius of 14880. We have set it so that it tilts 12.0 degrees on its axis. The 0 after tells the game whether to give the planet rings. if its a 0, the game wont add any rings, if its a 1, then the game will create rings. Our planet will orbit "My Star" at 58000000km away. The last 1 is how many moons our planet will have. In our example, our planet has 1 moon but the game supports up to 20 moons.

Next we create our moon called "My Moon", it has a radius of 3400km and orbits "My Planet" from 192200km away.

Finally all our textures will be stored in a folder called "My Star" in the .png format and the planet textures will be named by order of distance from the sun. So in our example our planet texture will be "My Star\1.png". The moon texture is named by the planet it orbits and after, the order of distance from the parent planet, written like: "My Star\1-1.png"

This scripting system makes making new solar systems easy and painless and also give people the opportunity to make their own solar systems.

Im currently writing an editor to create these files using a visual editor which shows what your solar system will be in the game itself.

To finish off, here is what i use to create our solar system using my new scripting system:



and some random screenshots:

Jupiter and Io


The Earth and the Moon


Saturn and its rings, can you find titan?


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KISTech
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Posted: 15th Mar 2009 20:41
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That's some nice work there.

I'm curious how you set your planet lighting. My planets look like crap because I can never get the lighting straightened out. Once I get it set to where the side facing the sun looks good, the back side is to light. Darken that and the front is to dark.

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Serial Velocity
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Well your problem there is your light range, i once had that problem way back when i first started making this and to correct it you need to set the light range to a VERY high number, in SSO i did:

Set Ambient Light 0
Set Light Range 1 , 100000000000

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KISTech
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Hmm.. Current zone size is 400,000 and light range is set to 500,000. Since it has a linear falloff, that does make sense. That would explain also why some of the settings never seemsed to really make a difference.

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 15th Mar 2009 20:52
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No problem

Have you got msn?

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KISTech
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Nope. No MSN, but my email is available. Just remove "NOSPAM" from the address.

Changing the light range didn't work. I'm still having the same problem.

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 16th Mar 2009 18:51
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Ok i'll email you

Can you send a screenshot to me of whats happening on your planets?

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DyVo
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Posted: 16th Mar 2009 21:19
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hey serial velocity, I'm trying to get my earth to work, its 14 000 000 units now, how large is your earth/jupiter (DBPro units) and do you do something with camera FOV

best,
--DyVo--

There are some wo think they can rule the galaxy....
coming soon....
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 16th Mar 2009 21:24 Edited at: 16th Mar 2009 21:28
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Hey DyVo

Well in SSO 1 unit = 1 mile so my Earth is about 12800 units in size and my Jupiter is about 100000 units in size.

EDIT Also my camera FOV is set to 60 instead of the default 90 because at 90, the planets seem to "stretch" nearer the edge of the screen.

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DyVo
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Posted: 16th Mar 2009 21:38
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ok thanks for that, waht I'm doing is use 1 unit for 1 meter, that also works, but you get very big numbers, and also a lot of framedrop
but if your earth is 12800 units, your ship isnt even close to 1 unit and the camera is pretty zoomed in on thes hip isnt it?

--thx--
--DyVo--

There are some wo think they can rule the galaxy....
coming soon....
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 16th Mar 2009 21:42
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Well my ship is roughly 0.6 units which comes out fine really. For such large numbers you will get lots of float innacuracy in your objects (When and object wobbles when its in contact with another object when their both far away)

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DyVo
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yes I noticed that, and thanks for the help again
looking forward to seeing the combat demo

Best
--DyVo--

There are some wo think they can rule the galaxy....
coming soon....
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lucifer 1101
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ok i have a couple of questions..

How did you make youre bg stars with different brighness settings?

How did you get those clouds in, are they 3d or textured to a plain?

Can you trabel to the Sun?

If yes how did you get it to shine like that?
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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 20th Mar 2009 17:52
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Quote: "How did you make youre bg stars with different brighness settings?"

Quote: "Can you trabel to the Sun?"

Yes you can travel to the sun and the planets are at different distances away from the sun so it will appear smaller.

Quote: "How did you get those clouds in, are they 3d or textured to a plain?"

They are currently part of the texture but im thinking of changing it to a seperate texture layer once i find out how to get them working

Quote: "If yes how did you get it to shine like that? "

That is a billboarded plain with a sun glow texture on it.

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Serial Velocity
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 18:08 Edited at: 7th Apr 2009 18:17
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Loads of new screenshots of rings today!

A Desert planet with an axial tilt of 87° with a low albedo ring system.


A random Gas Giant with 2 of its moons. I personally dont like the rings on this one too much so I may redo them.


Saturn and its moon Titan.

[img]

Uranus on its side, the north pole is in darkness and the south is towards the sun. However i think i need to tone down the rings of Uranus a little because they look too bright, correct me if im wrong.


All the planets you see here are all gunna be included in the combat demo

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KISTech
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Location: Aloha, Oregon
Posted: 7th Apr 2009 18:35
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Nice stuff. Can't wait to see what you've got in store for combat.

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Serial Velocity
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Joined: 24th Aug 2008
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 20:52
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Quote: "Can't wait to see what you've got in store for combat."


Thanks, I should finally manage to finish the combat demo after nearly 8 months now since the previous demo

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Serial Velocity
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Joined: 24th Aug 2008
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 01:13
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Planets rings now recieve shadows from the parent planet!

Heres Saturn and its huge ring system


Thanks to dark coder for creating the shader which I used for the shadow.

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