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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] The Universe According To Pincho Paxton

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 21:56
And what causes that flow?

Oh yeah. Gravity. Attraction.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 21:56
Quote: "I'm fairly certain the program isn't even real. Watch the videos closely and it looks way too much like poorly done animation."


That's DBPro.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 21:57
Quote: "And what causes that flow?

Oh yeah. Gravity. Attraction."


Does a plughole attract a boat? The boat moves with the water.. no attraction required.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 21:57
Doesn't mean it's not an animated model.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 21:58
Quote: "The boat moves with the water.. no attraction required"


The boat moves with the water as the water is being pulled down by gravity...

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:00
Quote: "The boat moves with the water as the water is being pulled down by gravity..."


Nope, the water is also in a flow, the flow of gravity. The same as the boat.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:01
And where is this mighty "flow" coming from, O All-Knowing Pincho?

Libervurto
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:02 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 22:03
Quote: "No. The bodies move together because of a flow towards the Earth, like a boat in a sink when you pull out the plug."

That sounds exactly like what I said. I'm just substituting a flow for an incline, and there would need to be an incline to cause a flow; like how sinks are concave.

Shh... you're pretty.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:03
Quote: "I'm just substituting a flow for an incline"
But an incline requires gravity to create gravity, and that's a Paradox.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:08
Doesn't change the fact that you corrected him by repeating what he said, essentially.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:13
No I am only talking about the flow. In space there is no down to the Earth. You could be moved up to the Earth in Australia, it makes no difference. The flow in local to the asteroid. It has no direction except towards the area of least resistance.. the Earth.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:14
I have no idea what you said there.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:21 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 22:25
Attraction to the Earth locates the Earth as the Mass that attracts the asteroid due to the bending of spacetime. That's science version.


Flow to the Earth locates Gravity as a flow towards the Earth which is a hole in spacetime, so spacetime is Energy Moving towards lower energy. The asteroid is just caught up in the flow, and the flow bends to that area of least resistance. However, the bend is a secondary directional force. That's the Pincho version.

The bend in science creates Gravity.

The flow in my theory creates Gravity, and a bend.

Dar13
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:28 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 22:29
Quote: "I don't think you understand the simulator. The rules are to do with 2 particles. The rest of the universe that it builds have no programmed rules. For example no gravity formulas, but you get gravity. No periodic table, but you get the periodic table. No planets, but you get planets. No sun code but you get suns. And no Galaxy code, but you get Galaxies."

You do realize just how much memory that would require to properly retain that state? Assume that a particle has a simple datatype(not including energy frequency or other things):


Since integers and floats are 32 bits in size, that struct(excluding whatever overhead created by the programming language) is 160 bits. Just to let you know just how much data you would need, simulating a single mole of material(10^23 atoms) would take around 3725290298461914.0625 gigabytes ( 160 bits * 10^23 converted to gigabytes) of storage space. That's about equivalent to 55 grams of iron.

So your program can't be generating planets and galaxies down to even the atomic level, much less the subatomic particle level. Unless you have an ingenious way of storing data that you'd like to share with us.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:40
Quote: "Since integers and floats are 32 bits in size, that struct(excluding whatever overhead created by the programming language) is 160 bits. Just to let you know just how much data you would need, simulating a single mole of material(10^23 atoms) would take around 3725290298461914.0625 gigabytes ( 160 bits * 10^23 converted to gigabytes) of storage space. That's about equivalent to 55 grams of iron.

So your program can't be generating planets and galaxies down to even the atomic level, much less the subatomic particle level. Unless you have an ingenious way of storing data that you'd like to share with us."


I know.. that's a problem. I am making the program open to a particle limit that you can type in. It will be years before anyone can type in a really big particle limit.

But there is a slight fix to getting more out than you put in. When you boil water, the pressure on the water makes it boil faster. If I am right about spacetime, then it should do more than it is supposed to under pressure. So by putting a boundary around all of the particles, I think it will generate more than it is supposed to. It is like lowering the resolution.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:53
@Dar13:

Thank you! I knew there was something else bugging me about the supposed program of his, I just couldn't quite put my finger on it...

@Pincho:

I'm still failing to comprehend what this "flow" is and where it comes from. What creates it? Is it "pushing" down on us instead of gravity pulling?

I think a lot of this arguing has been due to misunderstanding. I'm sorry for being sort of a jerk earlier but you really aren't endearing yourself or your theory to us by not producing evidence, and your last few posts haven't been very clear, either....

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:55 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 22:57
Quote: "Is it "pushing" down on us instead of gravity pulling?
"


Pushing inside our atoms..Yes, all of my forces are push forces, I have no attractive forces. It comes from Spacetime, which in my theory is a scalar particle field of a grain structure.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 22:58
Ok, now I sort of see what you're saying, however there's something about that that bothers me.

If it's pushing, how come we aren't constantly being pushed into the ground, or feel like we're going to fall down? How come when I stand up I can distinctly feel that I'm being pulled to the ground and not pushed?

Blood flow also indicates that the force is, in fact, attractive, rather than a pushing force.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:06
I think what Pincho is trying to say is that the math to handle the evolution of the system is already present, and the miracle is that such a small data set is given at the start. I have yet to make anything like this, myself. I really want to see where this goes, once the math is perfect and the system is as simple, easy to understand, and fundamental as it can get.

So, it's two particles, and about 6 or 7 mathematical rules? If this small foundation can build a universe that looks exactly like ours, I would accept that as one form of proof.

The more tangible evidence would have to come from elsewhere if it is to be accepted by the scientific community, but in my opinion scientists don't know how to get anything done. The scientific method requires too many inhibiting factors, and is a lot like religion in that it requires people to adhere to texts and documentation and rules. A wild gorilla understands physics better than modern man.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:06 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 23:07
Quote: "If it's pushing, how come we aren't constantly being pushed into the ground, or feel like we're going to fall down? How come when I stand up I can distinctly feel that I'm being pulled to the ground and not pushed?"


The force is G the same as before. All of your atoms are pushed, so it isn't on top of your head. It is a 3D push, that is heading into the Earth as its final destination. Well not quite 3D, it doesn't go up.

the_winch
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:07
Quote: "yes you can, that's the whole point of the program. I don't like ready made physics."


Why do scientists use super computers to run simulations with incredibly narrow scope when you can do that on your desktop pc?

I can't see how you can get from nothing to the most basic forms of matter on a desktop pc. Let alone planets.
How many calculations does you software have to preform to get a planet?

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:11
Quote: "in my opinion scientists don't know how to get anything done. The scientific method requires too many inhibiting factors, and is a lot like religion in that it requires people to adhere to texts and documentation and rules. A wild gorilla understands physics better than modern man."


Really? A wild gorilla knows and understand physics better than man?

I don't see how they could since they don't have particle accelerators...

Quote: "The force is G the same as before. All of your atoms are pushed, so it isn't on top of your head. It is a 3D push, that is heading into the Earth as its final destination. Well not quite 3D, it doesn't go up.
"


This just isn't a good enough explanation. I can still very distinctly feel myself being pulled. If it was any kind of push, it would feel similar to when a wave comes up in the ocean and pushes you back to shore. That right there already disproves your theory.

Quote: "Why do scientists use super computers to run simulations with incredibly narrow scope when you can do that on your desktop pc?

I can't see how you can get from nothing to the most basic forms of matter on a desktop pc. Let alone planets.
How many calculations does you software have to preform to get a planet?"


That's what I've been wondering too. Time for some sample code, Pincho.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:16
Sorry, I didn't see there was a second page.

I think a 4th dimension would magically make all of these "what-ifs" go away. In 3 dimensions, objects can be moving downward onto a deformed canvas or matrix at a constant speed, and the results would line up with Pincho's theory. All that needs to be done is the same thing in 4 dimensions, so you see the results 3 dimensionally.

That's why you only feel the force of the Earth's gravity, and not this universal constant.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:18
Quote: "I can't see how you can get from nothing to the most basic forms of matter on a desktop pc. Let alone planets.
How many calculations does you software have to preform to get a planet?"


I have so far only seen green blobs circling white blobs, it looked like a far away orbit. It was interesting, and only had 3 rules. But the full program is still in production.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:20
When can I expect a basic, unoptimized demo showcasing all of the rules in effect, no tricks?
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:20
Quote: "I have so far only seen green blobs circling white blobs, it looked like a far away orbit."


And how do you know those "green blobs" are planets and suns and galaxies?

Your program sounds so limited, I highly doubt it's produced anything beyond what you've shown in your videos (not much).

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:21
Quote: "This just isn't a good enough explanation. I can still very distinctly feel myself being pulled. If it was any kind of push, it would feel similar to when a wave comes up in the ocean and pushes you back to shore. That right there already disproves your theory. "


What is a pull? There is no such thing as a pull. Try to pull something.. it's not possible.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:23
Quote: "What is a pull? There is no such thing as a pull. Try to pull something.. it's not possible."




Are you effing kidding me? I can pull wagons. I can pull swords out of stones (despite the Kingdom's doubt), I can pull my pants up, I can pull them down, I can pull my dresser drawers out...

Now I know you're just trolling.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:25
A pull requires contact and friction, interlocking collisions, velocity. The spacetime river is like a constant 4th-dimensional pull, push, flow, whatever you want to call it.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:28
Quote: "Are you effing kidding me? I can pull wagons. I can pull swords out of stones (despite the Kingdom's doubt), I can pull my pants up, I can pull them down, I can pull my dresser drawers out..."


Are your fingers behind atoms on the wagon? Are your fingers behind atoms on the sword? Are your fingers behind atoms on your pants? Are your fingers behind the dresser drawer handles? If your fingers are behind something you are pushing.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:29
Quote: "Are your fingers behind atoms on the wagon? Are your fingers behind atoms on the sword? Are your fingers behind atoms on your pants? Are your fingers behind the dresser drawer handles? If your fingers are behind something you are pushing."




You really make no sense.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:33 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 23:34
Quote: "You really make no sense."


Take a look at the links on a chain closely....



Each link is actually behind another link, so each link is pushing the next link along. Study the atom placements.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:33
Quote: "If your fingers are behind something you are pushing."


True, but this would imply that in your theory, there is some kind of invisible, but physical and tangible flow, perhaps of matter, in a dimension that we cannot see, like the 4th dimension. Now the whole "river" thing is seeming more and more real. Maybe that would explain fluctuations in spacetime, like supernovas, shifting poles, and time travel? Honestly, if there is matter there would have to be variation. Sticks in the stream, dead frogs, fast water, slow water, sludgy water. It wouldn't be constant. Are you going to account for that?
WLGfx
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:34
Wow, you've got yourself some attention on this one Pincho and some bashings going on... All in all I found it quite interesting even if it was a long read... Some of these are too young to appreciate the older generations brain cells in action...



Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:36 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 23:37
Someone still has to pull the end of the chain though, don't they?

Pull exists. It is a force. I can pull things WITHOUT my hands being behind anything. My dresser drawer? I can pull it with my fingers on the top and bottom of the handle and not behind it at all. Thus, pull does indeed exist.

You really are just a troll.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:43
@Yodaman-

The microscopic imperfections in your hands and the wood, which are cumulatively known as friction, mean that there are atoms behind other atoms. It is push. It would be pull if it were 4th-dimensional gravity that's causing the friction. I'm not sure if either way can be proven without better instruments such as scanning electron microscopes. In a frictionless, magnetless world you'd need to push everything, right?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:49 Edited at: 8th Jul 2012 23:52
So I say that Newton said 'Attraction' for no good reason. There is no visible attraction, so he invented invisible attraction, and all of the maths ended up backwards. You end up with a two slit experiment with invisible water that can't be explained.

Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 23:53
@Pincho- Does it matter? One math is just an inverse of another math, to the same result.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:01 Edited at: 9th Jul 2012 00:05
Quote: "@Pincho- Does it matter? One math is just an inverse of another math, to the same result. "


Yes it matters, because it puts gravity behind the big bang, and not in front of it. If gravity is a push force it just keeps pushing outwards, and nothing joins together. You need to start with an infinite universe, and create black holes in the middle of Galaxies instead.

Ortu
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:11
You know general relativity theorizes gravity to be a push rather than a pull anyways, essentially the effect of space time resisting the displacement/distortion caused by mass. Think of inflating a balloon submerged in water. As balloon expands water is displaced if there is anywhere for it to go, if it's in a closed tank it can't displace and pushes back against the balloon. Anything between the water and the balloon gets pushed and held to the surface of the balloon. As far as 'feeling' a pull of gravity, it's somewhat misleading because of our typical contact with an obstructing surface (ground) gravity affects the entire body at once it doesnt pull your feet or push your head, but we feel the connection with whatever is under us. The feeling of gravity is quite different if you re floating under water or free falling through the air than when standing on the ground

jrowe
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:14 Edited at: 9th Jul 2012 00:16
Quote: "Each link is actually behind another link, so each link is pushing the next link along. Study the atom placements."


And how is the force transferred from one end of the link to the other without a force holding each atom together? Seems like a pull force to me...

For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:17
Quote: "
And how is the force transferred from one end of the link to the other without a force holding each atom together?"


The force that holds atoms together is a link with an electron in the middle... like a chain.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:22
Quote: "And how is the force transferred from one end of the link to the other without a force holding each atom together? Seems like a pull force to me..."


Precisely!

Pincho, show some evidence and stop citing your program as the be-all and end-all of your hypothesis. You can program whatever the hell you want into the computer so that's not an acceptable form of evidence.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:24 Edited at: 9th Jul 2012 00:25
Quote: "Pincho, show some evidence and stop citing your program as the be-all and end-all of your hypothesis. You can program whatever the hell you want into the computer so that's not an acceptable form of evidence."


It's not programmed, it's self building. The rules are for two particles. Just a small list of rules.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:26
Quote: "It's not programmed, it's self building."


......

You've stated MULTIPLE times that you've built up a program. You've had to have programmed the program, haven't you, at least to set up the parameters for your hypothesis?

Honestly I don't even believe you've so much as coded a thing. Still fairly certain it's an animation of some sort, and until I see code for it I won't believe it.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:28
Quote: "Honestly I don't even believe you've so much as coded a thing. Still fairly certain it's an animation of some sort, and until I see code for it I won't believe it."


This is a coding site that we are on. If I wasn't a coder what would I be doing here?

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:31 Edited at: 9th Jul 2012 00:32
This is 'The Game Of Life'....

http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/

I have created a version with different rules that relate to the two particles that I need to create a Universe. I use spacetime instead of a grid.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:32
There are plenty of people who don't code, actually. I don't code that much anymore and still log on from time to time to see what's up in the forums.

Code snippet or I call bull.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:32
The Game of Life is not adequate proof of your hypothesis!

Good lord!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jul 2012 00:34
Quote: "Wow, ya'll syins folk sure does get up tights about them syinsey thin's.

For what it's worth Pincho, though I may not agree with your theory*, I acknowledge that I cannot disprove it and will therefore respect your right to it. The responsibility to disprove something is equal as it is to prove it. For things that cannot be proved/disproved with absolute certainty with can but rationalize and speculate using the best of our logical abilities to draw conclusions given our limited evidence."


Nowt wrong with him having his hypothesis, he's doing his own tests, which is a good start and I encourage him to pursue it further. He definitely should, he can even find out for himself whether or not what he's saying is true or false. But the issue is that you can't pass off a hypothesis as known facts or state it as truth, or at least you don't if you wish to be taken seriously as a scientist.

Alternative views are great for science because they challenge current ideas and if they turn out to be more reliable, then that's great, it means progress. If anything, I would love the idea of the next great scientific mind being somebody I met on a forum, total bragging rights there . Unfortunately, Pincho's claiming his 'theory' (which is a hypothesis) is more reliable than the current model of physics used without the evidence or back up or without fully testing it. He is showing a lack of understanding with the scientific process, which will inevitably make it difficult for him to get people to take him seriously. If it turns out he's actually right, it'd be a damn shame that he went around the route of creating simulations and trying to convince people on the net with claims that it's fact and theory, instead of trying to win over the scientific community to say, "hey, can we test this hypothesis?"

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