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Geek Culture / 19 year old kid locked up in jail for sarcastic joke.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:58 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:59
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if you are 19 years old, you should be treated like a 19 years old.. I can't say this is that. Just out of the "adult door" - and well.. he has lost the last half year of his teens, for, essentially nothing.. but i guess... "sucks to be him" eh?



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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 23:06 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 23:09
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Quote: "If someone Muslim or not directly threatens to kill you, it's a criminal offense, why cant I get that across?"


I wish that were true.

Quote: "I think at this point some people have too much invested to hear or admit that an actual crime was committed. It kind of ruins the whole.... "for no reason" defense."


Thanks for that nonsense reply that adds nothing to the debate.

Quote: "Same as above. I am having a hard time understanding how some arrive at certainty after saying themselves there is nothing to go on in coming to that conclusion."


You're right, its' just a personal hunch that some of us have I guess. Some of us believe in the innocent-until-proven-guilty thing.

Quote: "But if somebody feels threatened, doesn't mean a threat was given."


Absolutely. And just because someone said something that hurt someone's feelings, doesn't mean they should be punished for it. Where I come from "hurting someone's feelings" isn't a crime.

Quote: "So you're basically saying people with completely innocent intentions are still committing crimes by jokingly making threats?"


It sounds a lot like that to me, although I'm hoping I'm mistaken.

I think you all have to remember here that this kid's life may have been ruined all because of a silly joke* that he didn't realise was so offensive to make. I can't make any guess as to what kind of person he is, but it's very possible that half a year in prison may scar him for life. Meanwhile, where's the evidence of a motive that the counter-terror organisations are doubtless researching? Perhaps it's inevitable given what's going on in the world right now, but it's really not fair. I guess if that's how it's got to be, then what I'm saying is "life isn't fair", but I'm not sure if that has to be the case.

* Note that I'm not really sure I think it was a 'joke' in the sense of humour, but it seems he was angry at the person he was talking to and wanted to shock them by saying something like that. I agree with others that say it's completely unacceptable to say things like that, and he certainly should be made aware (punished, if need be), but not to the extent that might damage his psyche. It's even possible he's now been desensitized to violence, and may be more likely to do it in the future.

EDIT

Quote: "Maybe a more fitting punishment would be to sit them down with some folks who lost family and friends and explain to them what was so funny about your joke. (This goes for you too Wolf)"


If it were possible, that would be a great idea. Every person should know just how much of an emotional impact these silly comments can make on people (not to mention the security implications of impersonating a would-be terrorist), and while I'm not sure people should be punished by the law for doing it, I think they should certainly be made to understand what they did was wrong, and why.

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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 23:33
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Quote: "Maybe you find my argument semi-mature and a little bland whilst your own is so obviously fully mature and super interesting, you are obviously a well balanced personality who sees the world for what it is and should be placed in charge forthwith...just playing with you..."


Indeed! Matter of fact! I am a god among men.
(that was sarcasm! I better state that in future posts. You never know who browses this )

Quote: ".but seriously my opinion may be 'old dad' to you but at least I don't contradict myself and pretend it never happened as seen here with some in this thread."


Oh! I agree with your opinion. I was merely joking. Except the melodramatic "explain it to the victims" part.

Quote: " so why compare it? other than to agree the law is an ass and use your own experience as example...we all know it can be sometimes...but what makes you think they are wrong in this case?. "


I compare it because in both cases someone who remained anonymous reported it (they didnt tell me who reported it) and the police overreacted. (in my case they advised to storm the house).
My point still is that there has to be a better way to deal with this. As I mentioned somewhere above. Secure psychological watch. Not prison. Prison can shatter a sensitive young teenagers mind for years. It can be truely scaring to a point where you lose your faith in humanity. I do see an offense! I do think the police should react! I just disagree with how it has happened.

Quote: "Maybe the lack of maturity isn't mine. But my perception of some others may be, you admit it was stupid and you admit you were immature, you need to read my posts properly before deciding I am coming down hard, I actually agree this should be handled better"


Ah! I see. You misunderstood. I fully agree with your statements and was merely refering to explaining yourself to the victims of some tragedy for an offensive joke part. I agree with everything else really.

Quote: "but I don't see anyone proving either way, just making a bunch of outraged defensive statements based on meaningless BS they said or did themselves and for which they had no issues come their way. So that means its all ok then even though they dont have a clue what actually happened. Which to be honest say's a lot about their own immaturity and inability to reason properly."


This proves you already won the argument, right? You dont need to get so worked up about it.

Quote: "and while I'm not sure people should be punished by the law for doing it, I think they should certainly be made to understand what they did was wrong, and why."


Exactly.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 00:10
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Did the boy's lawyer waive his right to a quick and speedy trial?

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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 00:42 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 00:54
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Quote: "Except the melodramatic "explain it to the victims" part.

I fully agree with your statements and was merely refering to explaining yourself to the victims of some tragedy for an offensive joke part."
This does already happen and has more success in bringing offenders to an understanding of what they did was wrong, you might think its a melodramatic way to come across but it works in the real world.

Quote: "I compare it because in both cases someone who remained anonymous reported it"
Concerning the topic in hand where did you get this information from?

Quote: "Did the boy's lawyer waive his right to a quick and speedy trial?"
This is where things get out of hand for me, the terrorist act actually strips all rights away, however I dont think it works that simply, there are time limits (although far longer extended than simple criminal charges)and they have to prove intent to hold for longer periods without trial. It goes without saying there is more to this than a simple comment posted online, its also a security 'right to know' thing which if he were even remotely innocent a judge would have to release information publicly. But getting this info from Homeland Security or whatever is not easy and without it he will continue to have no rights....catch 22.
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 00:49 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 00:50
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Quote: "Concerning the topic in hand where did you get this information from?"


It has been mentioned in the video I saw as this first has been made public.

Quote: "This does already happen"


Really? Where? This seems highly tasteless for both parties. Confronting a kid with its stupidity is one thing, doing so by tearing open scars and bringing back memories of already damaged individuals to teach someone a lesson is another.

Quote: "but it works in the real world."


As opposed to...?

I think we all agree more or less on this dont we?

Quote: "And yet again we get this passed off as fact quoting something the parents said, "it went along the lines of"."


Yes! I merely implied that it was very close to a real threat.

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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 00:57 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 01:27
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Quote: "Really? Where? This seems highly tasteless for both parties. Confronting a kid with its stupidity is one thing, doing so by tearing open scars and bringing back memories of already damaged individuals to teach someone a lesson is another."

We certainly have different opinions on what constitutes tasteless considering your previous posts

I know this has taken place in the UK at least and believe it or not the victims are usually quite willing to confront the offender in person, neither party is forced to accept a meeting and it's not always acceptable to both. But for those who do it seems to help them to come to terms with what happened, particularly if actual remorse is displayed and in most cases it is, being confronted with the repercussions on not only victims but family etc brings it 'home' to an offender and they see the results of their actions up close and personal.
Although you may consider it a 'lesson', it is, but not a punishment. Consider it an 'education'.
As many around here are quick to point out even criminal offenders are only human. Repeat offences are reduced using this method.

Of course your going to have failures as well with some offenders who will never accept what they do is hurting anyone or just don't care. But it seems to be quite successful on the whole.

Quote: "It has been mentioned in the video I saw as this first has been made public."
So who said it? Are we back to the parents again?
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Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:02 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 01:24
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Quote: "what is right or wrong is not set in stone. Everyone believes differently as to what is right and what is wrong, and many people - often tends to agree that the law is right. while others - see it differently."

That's not how it comes across. I can accept if people agree with the law, but it deeply troubles me when people think it's right BECAUSE it's the law.

Quote: "The threat was the crime."

But no one was threatened. If he'd threatened the guy he was talking to or a specific school or "the local school" then that would be a threat. The kids in his stupid remark are purely hypothetical, if he'd given them any basis in reality then I would support the police's action, because that would indicate that he posed a threat to specific individuals or members of a certain group.

Quote: "I am actually coming round to thinking how offensive and hurtful such remarks must seem to those who have lost people to such incidents and I think they should definitely hold him for another six months just for good measure."

You think someone should be locked up for 12 months for saying something offensive? That boggles my mind.

And now I will click "post" and find out how behind I am...

[edit]

Quote: "If somebody feels threatened, doesn't mean a threat was given. A person could feel threatened for a whole number of reasons where somebody has had no intention of threatening anybody at all. You suggested if somebody doesn't get the joke and feels threatened, then you get charged, not if you threaten somebody you get charged. "

Bingo, and as far as I can see he did not threaten anyone. Who is he threatening? Hypothetical children?

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED SO FAR?
* The intent of the message (whether it was a joke or not) is irrelevant to whether it can reasonably be perceived as a threat.
* He made no direct threat to any specific individual or group.
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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:22
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Quote: "but it deeply troubles me when people think it's right BECAUSE it's the law."


That is however, how we are raised - isnt it?

In school they will teach you not to to certain things - because it's agains the law, not because the other person is offended, and.. sadly - many parents aswell.

Quote: "And now I will click "post" and find out how behind I am..."



somewhat x)



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:23
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There's a lot of things out there I consider significantly offensive, I won't go into detail because there's some AUP breakers in there and possibly could offend others in return. Within that list of things there are things I find very sickening, but things I sincerely doubt I could get somebody jailed for...nor would I wish to. Though ideally I would like to see a number of attitude changes, but I wouldn't see it brought about by force.

Even to some degree, things I would consider worse than joking about school shootings, heck, things I feel perhaps worse than condoning school shootings.

The problem when people are free to express themselves people aren't necessarily going to like what they hear. For me, I draw the line when people are hurt and I don't mean offended or even upset, because there's so much diversity in the world there's so much to be offended or upset by. Yes, someone can be extremely insensitive, but I don't think insensitivity should be a crime, nor should it enhance a person's prison sentence. Yes, it's not necessarily nice, but the anger or the sense of feeling offended doesn't take long to disappear and yes, you may end up hating somebody. If you are grieving, the grief would be the much stronger emotion. By all means, such things are socially unacceptable, but not a crime.

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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:27 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 01:28
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Quote: "neither party is forced to accept a meeting."


Thats different of course.
If something like my child being killed in school would happen to me, I would not desire to talk to some stupid teenager who joked about it.

Quote: "victims are quite willing to confront the offender in person,"


Whoa! Easy there, Judge Dreed, if the victims where not already around the offender when he told the joke, they arent victims, nor is there an offender. If its on the internet where people tend to forget that a third party might read their conversation its a grey area. Offenders in this case are the kids that actually pulled the trigger.

Quote: "So who said it? Are we back to the parents again? "


No! It was mentioned like this on youtube. I searched but did no find that video again as there is a lot of new content on this on the webs. However, here are some claims from other sources:

"Somebody saw this" uproxx.com

"a canadian woman" Fox news

Now that I read more about it, the stories seem to vary. Some claim it was on facebook, others in a videogame. The exact quote of what he wrote differs too from article to article.

Quote: "You think someone should be locked up for 12 months for saying something offensive?"


Sigh! It is awful to intentionally hurt someones feelings. Some people can say monstrous things out of ignorance, carelessness, detachment or just plain malevolence...however, locking them up in prison (I recommend watching the National Geographic series "lockout" if you are unfamiliar with prisons) is extreme, inhumane and kind of orvelian. It is not an offense to hurt someones feelings, it is offensive. Being offensive is legal.



-Wolf

Quote: "* He made no direct threat to any specific individual or group. "


He mentioned a school! And after what happened in the states and germany recently, I get the hows and whys of the overreaction to this.

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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:28
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problem is though, if offending people were not a crime.. I believe racism and such - would be quite a lot bigger problem than it already is.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:45 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 01:46
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I agree pretty much with what Wolf is saying.

Quote: "There's a lot of things out there I consider significantly offensive, I won't go into detail because there's some AUP breakers in there and possibly could offend others in return."


E-mail me please. I think there's a lot we could discuss (and that we can agree on).

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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:47 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 02:11
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Quote: ""If somebody feels threatened, doesn't mean a threat was given. A person could feel threatened for a whole number of reasons where somebody has had no intention of threatening anybody at all. You suggested if somebody doesn't get the joke and feels threatened, then you get charged, not if you threaten somebody you get charged. "

Bingo, and as far as I can see he did not threaten anyone. Who is he threatening? Hypothetical children?"


Sigh! I stated its an offense to threaten someone, it is....right? Feel free to correct me on this point. If someone presses charges for threatening behavior there is a thing called an investigation.
I didn't mean to suggest you would be charged without investigation, and trial if it goes that far.You decide to take what I say literally while on the other hand you defend your argument by saying the offender shouldn't be taken literally and this is going on a lot in this thread.

At which point did you decide I was saying outright it was a joke taken the wrong way? My point is that YOU might claim you were joking , in that case...'Tell it to the judge'. I am not speaking hypotheticaly about hypothetical responses in an argument about a hypothetical situation which no one seems to have the real facts on around here, but keep throwing out the same scenario over and over again, which in all honestly is tiring me out as no one therefore knows what they are talking about.


Quote: "Offenders in this case are the kids that actually pulled the trigger."

I don't know but maybe I am being obtuse since people are unable to distinguish I will explain further. The example I gave above of meeting face to face has actually been between offenders and victims, nothing to do with someone making jokes. Somewhere down the line this has got lost in the interpretation after I suggested something like it for a case like this as it seems more appropriate, to me at least, than giving a sentence and criminal record. If this kid is as you all claim completely innocent then it might have been handled better. I am still out on whether he is completely innocent given the lack of real facts and second hand 'evidence' around it all.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:48 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 01:50
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A companion discussion this raises is "How should we behave on the internet?"

I was expecting there to be a rapid creation of all kinds of weird etiquette and different ways of expressing meaning, but as we can see from this kid's case we haven't even agreed on a way to indicate sarcasm yet! It disappoints me that people communicate more and more using memes and references, I suppose this is to ensure that their meaning is understood by using memes that have pre-agreed meanings without ambiguity. It's almost like newspeak if you think about it! A really dumb version of newspeak... actually, it's almost like we've gone back to using pictograms... ← (like that one)

A difficulty with knowing how to behave on the internet is that you don't know who is watching. Facebook is particularly bad at this, I can never tell if the conversation I'm having is private or not. Should we censor ourselves at all times? How does the atmosphere are "culture" differ between websites? I'm sure if he posted that on 4chan he'd have people complaining that he wasn't graphic enough.

[edit]

Quote: "problem is though, if offending people were not a crime.. I believe racism and such - would be quite a lot bigger problem than it already is."

This has the opposite effect, it discourages people from interacting with those from different cultures because they have different customs and might unintentionally offend them. Lack of interaction breeds ignorance, breeds racism.
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:52
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Quote: "actually, it's almost like we've gone back to using pictograms... ← (like that one)"


Yes! But memes are only used in nonserious posts and are ...fun. Just like a lingo, slang or teenager-babble.

Quote: "A difficulty with knowing how to behave on the internet is that you don't know who is watching. Facebook is particularly bad at this, I can never tell if the conversation I'm having is private or not. Should we censor ourselves at all times? How does the atmosphere are "culture" differ between websites? I'm sure if he posted that on 4chan he'd have people complaining that he wasn't graphic enough. "


I behave on the internet like I behave with real people. since I do that I never had any problems.

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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:52
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Quote: "This has the opposite effect, it discourages people from interacting with those from different cultures because they have different customs and might unintentionally offend them. Lack of interaction breeds ignorance, breeds racism."


Absolutly - I do quite much believe that everything should be taken in perspective. But we do need laws against intentionally offending people



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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:55
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Quote: "I behave on the internet like I behave with real people. since I do that I never had any problems."
Not according to your previous posts
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 01:57
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Quote: "Not according to your previous posts"


I was an offensive teenager.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:13
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Quote: "I behave on the internet like I behave with real people. since I do that I never had any problems."

So you don't adjust your behaviour to suit different social situations?
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:16
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Quote: "So you don't adjust your behaviour to suit different social situations? "


You make it sound like I'm offensive around here

Of course I do, everybody does. I do this on the internet aswell.



-Wolf

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Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:23
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Quote: "Of course I do, everybody does. I do this on the internet as well. "

Now I am confused what you originally meant.
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:26
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You quoted me saying "I behave on the internet like I behave with real people" and replied "So you don't adjust your behaviour to suit different social situations? "

Which implies that I dont adjust my behaviour here to the community

At least thats how I got it.

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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:38 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 02:46
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Quote: "So you don't adjust your behaviour to suit different social situations?"


well, I do that on the internet aswell?
and I do act somewhat like IRL on the internet aswell, just.. less easily angered - well.. not angered - but you know when you argue and your voice gets louder and louder, but you are not actually angry? and uncounsously(iknowispelledthatwrong) so aswell? no?... well I do that..
but not on the internets, of course - which does make it quite a lot easier to keep a civilised discussion for me here. Not because I can change my arguments or be "more offensive", but because I don't get heated in arguments.



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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:39 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 02:40
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This has to be the most confused thread on the forum....ever

I am beginning to wonder if this whole thing isn't some social internet experiment.
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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:40
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Why? The conversation progresses rather naturally.

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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:41
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Well it kinnda is indeed.. the Mods rigged this, DIDNT THEY!?



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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:41
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Quote: "Why? The conversation progresses rather naturally."

I missed that part.
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:42 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 02:42
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Quote: "Why? The conversation progresses rather naturally."


It does, the conversation has kinnda cooled off though, or cooled down - which, arguably is a good thing


edit: aaaaaand I almost double posted there...



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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:44
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Quote: "I missed that part. "


And what is the part you find so bewildering?

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:51
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We complain when our children are brats to adults and complain when our kids are disciplined for it. there is nothing wrong with scaring the blank out of your child so they will know there are rules to our own society.

With that said some things are very wrong, like "tazering" and or forcing a child on the ground as any adult would be.

I am for discipline and also not for it all the same, I am indifferent to this story. I think this kid should not be in jail, this is for sure, the city should be sued.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:54
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Quote: " I am indifferent to this story. I think this kid should not be in jail, this is for sure, the city should be sued."


this doesnt really make any sense Daniel, you are indifferent to it - meaning you don't really care, yet you do voice an opinion about it?



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Wolf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:54
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Quote: " meaning you don't really care, yet you do voice an opinion about it?"


You are on the internet!

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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 02:57
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Quote: "You are on the internet!
"


I am...? Wow, i really thought this was real life for a second there! Thanks for snapping me out of it!



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MrValentine
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 03:19
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Signing off this thread as is appears to have run its course... You girls kiss and make up now you hear!

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KeithC
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 05:32
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I'm getting some popcorn....

-Keith

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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 05:37
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I know I said I was leaving... But mmmm Pop Corn... Butter sweet? Caramel? Classic?

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KeithC
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 05:40
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Butter sweet, of course.

-Keith

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Quik
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Location: Equestria!
Posted: 11th Jul 2013 05:40
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Normal salty popcorn is the way to go! ^^



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:21 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 06:26
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Here's the answer, don't lock him up....send the little wally the bill for investigation and wasting police time, or even better, send it to his parents who might just change their view of their little precious, leaving him to stew in his own juice

Did someone offer to get the popcorn?
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Quik
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:22
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Quote: "Here's the answer, don't lock him up....send the little wally the bill for investigation, or even better, send it to his parents who might just change their view of their little precious, leaving him to stew in his own juice"


this ^
So we did come to an agreement?
... did I loose it somewhere up there? XD

KeithC is getting us popcorn! :3



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:26
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We agreed to popcorn I believe that's good as it's going to get.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:33
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i dont like popcorn
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Libervurto
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Joined: 30th Jun 2006
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:39
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WHAT HAVE WE AGREED UPON SO FAR?
* The intent of the message (whether it was a joke or not) is irrelevant to whether it should reasonably be perceived as a threat.
* He made no direct threat to any specific individual or group.
* He should not be jailed or treated as a terror suspect.
* He should be forced to cover the cost of the investigation.
* Popcorn.
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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 06:42 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 06:53
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Quote: "i dont like popcorn "

You just like to be awkward dont you? You gotta be contrary alla time and never satisfied...you'll eat the darn popcorn and smile while ya do, or early bed. What's it to be?

Your other alternatives are six months in jail or adoption
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Seppuku Arts
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 11th Jul 2013 10:06
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Toffee Popcorn!

Quote: "Your other alternatives are six months in jail or adoption"


I dunno man, not liking popcorn? I'm pretty sure that's the death penalty, it's like treason or something.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 10:24 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 10:27
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Quote: "You just like to be awkward dont you? You gotta be contrary alla time and never satisfied..."
Sure! I just figured it'd be useful to ensure that we still didn't all agree on something.

For the record, I actually do like popcorn, preferably just not homemade.
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TheComet
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Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 11th Jul 2013 10:34
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This thread...


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 10:50
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Quote: "Sure! I just figured it'd be useful to ensure that we still didn't all agree on something"


I disagree.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2013 11:10
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Well then I think you didn't see the sarcasm in it.
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