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Geek Culture / A poem I wrote, comments appreciated.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 21:42
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evolution... theres a debate thing... as i said im religeous, but i didnt mention i'm a firm believer in science, the religion i chose is a very science/philosophical based religeon rather than all this miracle stuff and the world being created in 7 days stuff...

my view on evolution: survival of the fittest means the over a range between a millenia and just a yr, a whole species would change, like with the bison/buffalo/whatever beginning with b... they put the slowest [creature name] at the back, where they are most likely to be hunted by lions etc, meaning that over time, the species gets faster, as only the fastest survive, however i dont see how a creature can say "right, for my species to survive, we need to learn to fly" or even earlier "our species will need to see; ok i'll reproduce into a few different types of cells, that will form the eyeball"

payleys watch: a philosipher hu found a watch on the beach, and opened it and amazed by the clockwork inside, it was too complex to hav been formed naturally, but must hav had a maker.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 21:48 Edited at: 11th Feb 2004 21:49
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Quote: "If god didnt ask/tell someone to write the bible then that person did it by his own free will, and so means the bible may be totally fictional due to the writer being drunk/stoned/very creative or the writer may have actually seen/heard everything in the bible. For this to be true then the writer would have to have traveled loads and probably had to be in more than one place at once, thus the writer was probably a god. "


lol think of the bible/quoran/etc (no offense, but i don't know any other names) as a collectaction of books, if you ever studied it you would find it doesn't hav "a writer" but lots of em, like those 4 people who followed Jesus around, each giving there own version of the story, saying one person wrote the story is wrong... and breaking that quote down even more... it's just wrong sorry. Saying God broke mankinds freewill, theres been many cases in the Bible etc where God asked someone to do something and they didnt, God got a bit peeved, but never forced someone to do it, or roboticised them to do it... if you understand what I mean by that made up word

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 00:54
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first off, Grismald: Evoution is stupid, i've studed this in curch and in science class it has little evidence
Froogle: Catholicism is a part of Christianity, so if they're being made fun of the most, then Christianity is

Take a look to the sky just before you die

---For Whom The Bell Tolls, Metallica
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 11:00
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yeh k then, but i still think it's wrong to let religeon get in the way of science, example: galilleo.

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 17:43
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Quote: "How can you say that? Have you ever studied it at school? "


I smell another brainwashing... yes, I've studied evolution I'm sure a heck of al ot more than you have.

Quote: "but i still think it's wrong to let religeon get in the way of science, example: galilleo."


That was an example of the Church trying to control what everyone believed, not of some vague entity called 'religion' oppresing some vague entity called 'science'.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 17:53
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it is

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MiRRoRMaN 64
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 18:11
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I believe in Cthulhu! And he will swallow us all whole when we die! Including all you other coders here! Have a nice day!


x2sys.hatesit.com
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 18:41
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While I could quote from different books that punch a few holes here and there in the evolution theory (remember, it's just a theory), there is a great book that, when read, would make *anyone* suspicious as to why it's taugh in school at all. That book is called Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.

You can pick it up used at amazon for like $8. It is perhaps the most amazing book I have ever read, and my father is making a video on the book which he will be distributing to different churches.

The cool thing about this book's author, is that he is not even a creationist. He doesn't argue religious dogma--- he is a scientist who has looked into all things small, things that man could not have studied back in Darwin's time, and how truly impossible life could have begun without an original design. Very cool book indeed, and I recommend it to anyone There are many scientists who have written papers about this book after reading it, and who have stopped believing that life could have originally just happened out of the blue.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684834936/qid=1076603620//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-5827018-3336054?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


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Ancient Chinese proverb: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 18:51
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hmm... maybe i'll read it... sometime... speaking of books on evolution, anyone remember the babel fish in hitch hikers guide to the galaxy

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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 19:25
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Now that's more like it.

Of course I remember the Babel fish. Lovely ear fish that one.

Shame he died so young really.

Reminds me of those cute quotes he did. Like the one about how there is no sentient life in the universe. Basically the mass of sentient life in the universe compared to the mass of the universe is so stupidely small that with simple rounding it has to be 0. Nice.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Grismald
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 20:19
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Mr X:
Quote: "Evoution is stupid, i've studed this in curch and in science class it has little evidence"
LOL I guess you're joking right?
Anyway how can you be so affirmative without any argument?

Mouse:
Quote: "yes, I've studied evolution I'm sure a heck of al ot more than you have"

I didn't mean any offence ,calm down!!
Then what have learnt and what makes you think it has little evidence? (BTW when,where and how did you study evolution?)
We can discuss this without any anger, i'm just trying to understand why so much people here seem to dislike this theory.
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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 03:49 Edited at: 13th Feb 2004 03:53
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JeKu: Fantastic! Someone else who's read that awesome book. My mom made me read it for school this year (alongside a pro-evolution book and The Origin of Species, so I could get a balanced view of the subject).

Grismald: Read Darwin's Black Box . Pure science told from a balanced perseptive that, through biochemistry, highlights several problems in the evolution theory.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 03:52
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By the way, I just found part of a review on Amazon that compeltely sums up how I feel on the matter:

The truly amazing thing about Behe's book is not just the thorough documentation and careful argumentation, but also the ways it stirs up such disparate passions. After reading the negative reviews, there is no doubt left in my mind that believers in naturalistic evolution regard the theory with the same reverence that Christians view doctrines like the Virgin Birth and the Atonement. Naturalism has become a quasi-religious worldview to these people that they feel they must defend against "heretics."

How very, very true!

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 05:04
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X2SYS: You like Lovecraft, too?
Grismald: It's me, GhostFacedKillah, and no, I was not kidding, evoultion has little evidence: give me some and I will be able to prove MOST of it wrong
Mouse: Keep fighting the good fight

Take a look to the sky just before you die

---For Whom The Bell Tolls, Metallica
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 05:07
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I just finished studying it in science class and i did a couple of months ago in church

Take a look to the sky just before you die

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 05:49
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Mouse, glad to see somebody else who liked it as much as me


http://www.jeku.com/audio/
Ancient Chinese proverb: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 06:41
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@Mr X

"I've decided to do a Neohpyte-type post "

Sweet! I have followers!

"Neophyte, if you want to correct anything, go right ahead!"

Thanks, but no thanks. I have a little rule I try to keep about not wondering into Religous debate so you'll have to count be out of most of this discussion unfortunately. However, I have no problem debating in favor of evolution.

@Jeku

"(remember, it's just a theory), "

This is a slight pet peeve of mine actually. Evolution is both fact and theory.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

"how truly impossible life could have begun without an original design."

This is a misconception of what evolution is. Evolution doesn't talk at all about the origin of life. Abiogenisis does.

As for Behe, this guy's work has been debunked so many times it is ridiculous.
Here take a look at this and tell me if you still believe this guy afterward:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

FYI Today is Charles Darwin's birthday. Coincedence?
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 06:45
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Evolution never happened! I'm not growing wings, a tail, horns, or a flamethrower. Sorry, but i must DISAGREE

Take a look to the sky just before you die

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HZence
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 06:47
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Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Neophyte
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@Mr X

"Evolution never happened! I'm not growing wings, a tail, horns, or a flamethrower. Sorry, but i must DISAGREE"

Where does evolution suggest that you would grow any of those things? I'm truly don't understand what you are trying to get at here.
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Lord Ozzum
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evolving into something better: me with wings to fly, a horn to shove up someone @$$, a tail to wrap around someone's neck and hang them with, and a flamethrower to burn LinuxUser

Take a look to the sky just before you die

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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 06:55
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@Mr X

I take you mean that since you don't randomly mutate these attributes(I'll ignore the flamethrower one becuase I know you're joking) this somehow disproves evolution? Uhhh...no. I think you misunderstand what evolution is really all about. Read this faq:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
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Lord Ozzum
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i still don't believe it: I still don't hevt that dammed bitch LinuxUser scorched yet!
Sorry, Neophyte: I'll just never believe it

Take a look to the sky just before you die

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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:05
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@Mr X

"Sorry, Neophyte: I'll just never believe it"

Why?
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:08
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do you believe in tesseracts?

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Neophyte
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@Mr X

"do you believe in tesseracts?"

What are those?
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Toilet Freak
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:11
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is that a proper word?

http://www.toiletfreak.dbspot.com/
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Lord Ozzum
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yes, a tesseract is a hypercube

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Lord Ozzum
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the 4th dimension: time and alternate universes!

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Toilet Freak
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i don't see it in my dictionary...

my definition of 4th dimension is diferent to others...

http://www.toiletfreak.dbspot.com/
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Neophyte
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I don't follow. What does this have to do with you not believing in evolution?
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Lord Ozzum
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it's improbable math!
NOTHING!!!
Improbable Math still means it has a chance of being true

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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:18
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Mr X

"it's improbable math!
NOTHING!!!"

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you mean since you believe that evolution can't be proven, like "improbable" math, you don't believe in it. Correct?
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Lord Ozzum
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correct!
Look up hypercube -or- 4th dimension on the web. i got it from a few books i have on it and a mmvie i watched about it

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Lord Ozzum
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though i used to have a great webasite bookmarked on my old computer

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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:22
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Evolution has been proved though. Its even been observed. Read this FAQ and see for yourself.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
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Lord Ozzum
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it's also been disproved. just because someone says it's proved doesn't mean it is! Neophyte, you're a nice person, bt you will NEVER convince me. Did you even look up hypercube?

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Neophyte
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@Mr X

"it's also been disproved."

No it hasn't. If you've got proof that its false post it.

"just because someone says it's proved doesn't mean it is!"

True, but if you'll read the FAQ you'll see that they aren't just saying that it is proven, they are suppling facts to support their arguments.

" Neophyte, you're a nice person,"

Thank you.

"bt you will NEVER convince me."

Why? What's so bad about evolution?

"Did you even look up hypercube?"

No. It really isn't germane to the discussion that we are having. I could later if you like.
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Lord Ozzum
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ok, Neophyte: ever since i heard about it when i was 3 i hated the thought of it! a decade later you ain't gonna convince me otherwise! Hypercubes are cool though. It clearly states that there are many yous out there

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Lord Ozzum
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besides, i have heard so many good points against it! Besides, i didn't have time to read every article!

Take a look to the sky just before you die

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Lord Ozzum
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hey, neophyte, you got MSN or Yahoo? I would much rather debate this there then here! If you want mine first
MSN: in_for_the_kill_@hotmail.com
yahoo: krystexthedestroyer

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Neophyte
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Posted: 13th Feb 2004 07:35 Edited at: 13th Feb 2004 07:36
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@Mr X

"ok, Neophyte: ever since i heard about it when i was 3 i hated the thought of it! a decade later you ain't gonna convince me otherwise!"

Fine. I see there is no point in trying to reason with you. Your mind is clearly made up. Evidence or no evidence.

"besides, i have heard so many good points against it!"

Like?

"Besides, i didn't have time to read every article!"

If you did, would it even matter? Is there anything anyone could do or say to change your mind about evolution?

[edit]
"hey, neophyte, you got MSN or Yahoo?"

'Fraid not, no.
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Lord Ozzum
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good! now we can ague about something more relevant: did dragons ever exist?

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Neophyte
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@Mr X

"did dragons ever exist?"

No. There is no evidence that they ever did so I don't think so.
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Lord Ozzum
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I disagree: they escaped through ad back into the places the hypercube overlaps!

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Neophyte
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@Mr X

"I disagree: they escaped through ad back into the places the hypercube overlaps!"



I'd love to joke around some more, but I've got to go now. We can pick this up tomorrow if you want.

See ya.
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Lord Ozzum
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cya

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HZence
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Quote: "i heard about it when i was 3 i hated the thought of it"


That's spiffy.

I'm assuming things here, but I think the only reason you "hate" evolution is because it's potentially "against your religion". The thing is, it's *not* necessarily going against Christianity. I don't have time to go into detail into that.

Also, consider that maybe the reason you "hate" it is because a Christian adult told you it was "the devil" or something to that degree.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Flashing Blade
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My tuppence:

Concerning the Bible:
Now I'm 34 so school was a long time ago so appologies for my errors.
The Jews had many stories - creating of Earth, Noah etc,etc,etc. And none of these stories were written down, they were just told from one generation to the next. They were passed down the generations for about 5000 years.
Now Israel was conquered by a race of people (can't remember what they were called but I think it began with 'B'). The Jews were told they were no longer to speak Hebrew but this new language 'B'. Worried that they were going to loose there history some decided to write these stories.
So The Old Testiment is a collection of stories passed down from one generation to the next and some of them had been passed down for 5000.
This is what I vaguely remember from school. Many of the stories in the Old Testiment are probably very far removed from what actualy happened.
This is my understanding.

Concerning evolution.
Religion is based on faith.
Science is based on proof and watertight theories.
You can't say prove God exists the same as you can't use faith for scientific theories.
Evolution is based on theory, but that theory is not watertight. Example:
The Bat makes a high pitched squeel which bounces off objects and it hears with its great big ears. Both of these are needed - one is useless without the other. I don't see it as possible that both of these things developed simutanesly(spelling?)



I don't know what to believe but I am leaning more towards a God or a higher inteligence making us.
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Lord Ozzum
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HZence, no one ever told me it was the devil. We reviewed it in church and he was able to counter most of the evidence. Of course, nearly everything has SOME evidence that could upport it: The sun is really a fiery god, it's HOT!
But, no, no one ever told me it was satanic.
@ Flashingblade: There is more evidence to support God put us here instead of us being magically created: most evolution theories have it where the just the right stuff comes together at just the right moment. First off, there is LESS then a 1/6000000000

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