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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / - DBPro Coding Challenges -

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 5th May 2005 19:02 Edited at: 5th May 2005 19:28
I dont think its counter productive to publicly release the algorithm, take MD5 and AES for example, they're all open source (I think... How else would loads of people have made their own?)

I've just realised that, not being a cracker myself, this is gonna be hard tp judge in terms of security!

Remember people - we have till Saturday

I'm gonna start work on the database side of my new site today. I'm not feeling great, so i've taken the day off work.

I suppose the biggest challenge for this.. challenge.. is to be able to turn data from a -> b -> a. Going from a -> b is easy, you just scramble the data.. Its that b -> a that seems to be the hardest part.

I also think that maybe a slight variation on this theme could be for error correction - like if you have a source file, you output another file that you can ever so slightly change but it will still "decrypt" to the origional form..


EDIT:
I found this link - might be usefull for people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES

My Website:
RiiDii
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Posted: 6th May 2005 02:44 Edited at: 6th May 2005 03:40
Okay - here's a little more serious entry - although I was looking for a way to pull a file out of the recycle bin

Since this is a no-media challenge, I had to be a little clever in some work-arounds to that rule - asking for some lienience here. I also probably broke the rule about not having a million data statements to replace media. But I wanted a fair amount of text to encrypt - so there it is. It doesn't need to be there. Any text will do.

I also worked around the no-media by pulling a common bmp file from most Windows environments (bliss.bmp). If the file is in a different location or not on your pc, any fairly large bmp file will do. The point isn't around the media used, the point is that media is used to encrypt the data.

When running the code, the program will load the .bmp file. Press any key. Then it will encode the text from the million data statements into the image one bit at a time. The old image will be deleted and the new encoded image will replace the old image. You will not notice any difference in the picture.
Press any key. The program will then decode the text from the image and copy it to the clipboard. After a moment or two, press any key and the program should end. If not, wait another moment and repeat. Switch over to a text program like Wordpad or Word and Paste the encrypted/decrypted text.

This is not only useful for encryption of text, but you can also "watermark" an image to prevent copywrite infringement.

As I understand it, this method can be used to encrypt entire books into a single image.

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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KimoSabi
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Posted: 6th May 2005 03:33
very nice RiiDii (which i still pronounce "Ridee" lol)

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IBOL
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:31 Edited at: 6th May 2005 05:09
well, riidii,
that's seems quite serious.

i will encrypt my entry using my program,
and if you can't crack it, i win...ok?


seriously...here is my encryption entry. i will concede that it make files 2.16 times larger, but it does flawlessly encrypt and decrypt them, and 216 is a pretty cool number , right?

it works by using two encryption/decryption keys within the program,
which are stored in the header of the encrypted file, along with two misleading bytes. one key multiplies each piece of data by a number, the other key inserts nonsense data at specific rotating locations. it now also contains in the header the number of bytes in the original file, surrounded by more nonsense data. it's a type of 'checksum'.

this is mostly off the top of my head...someone familiar with these
topics know how much of this has been done, and how hard it is to crack?

the program will search whatever directory it ends up in (the DBP temp directory on my computer) and ask you to enter one of the files it finds there. do so, and include the extension.



bob

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
RiiDii
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Posted: 6th May 2005 11:17 Edited at: 6th May 2005 11:21
Quote: "and 216 is a pretty cool number , right?"

Not nearly as cool as 42.

216% of the original size? Ow! Actually, now that you mention it. Since I am encrypting the text data into a bmp file that already exists, the text file can be deleted completely (see my first entry on how to do this). Effectively: 100% Compression!!! And if you were to save the bmp file again, it should be exactly the same size (unless DBPro does something funky with it). I'm ignoring the degradation factor because, well... most people won't be able to tell anyway. Even rewriting another compression onto the bmp file won't degrade the picture much further (the worst it can get is 100% of the lsb's are rewritten to the opposite state).

As far as breakability; it looks fairly complex to crack. However - even compiled, someone could use a hex editor (I think that will work on a DBPro compiled .exe file) and read your encryption code. As tough as your encryption is to crack, that's half the battle right there.

Solution: You might be better off including a splash screen with the key's encrypted into the splash picture. Then decode the picture to retrieve the keys. Keeps it nice and safe from common hex editors.

Since my code is so great that you should use it to protect your encryption; I win!

Seriously though. Great code. Even looking at the code, I'd find it tough to be able to crack (but then again, I'm not a hacker... so...that's not saying much ).

Edit:


"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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IBOL
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Posted: 6th May 2005 12:25 Edited at: 6th May 2005 12:36
r2,
i have no idea if your program actually works,
but like everything else, it runs slow on my computer.
too slow to get the result before i get ridiculously impatient.
(i'm not saying you're lying, i'm complimenting your method (as long as it's legitimate)).
EDIT:
i took out the wait key's, hit F5 and went to the basement to get the laundry (down and up 4 flights of stairs). when i came back , it had finished, and it worked. it did seem to be all one string (which might be just a fact about 'write to clipboard'). i don't understand
how you did this, but it seems to have worked.

and i know you're kidding, but what's this about a splash screen?
do you just mean that i can't any media, or is it more devious?

i looked up a hex editor, but didn't quite see the relevance.
but i suppose that the rigth person could actually see my data statements?
i actually looked thru the compiled .exe in a text editor, just to see if i could find them, and i could not. it certainly doesn't mean they aren't there, of course...

would the hex-editor issue apply to any format you used to keep your keys in? it seems that it might...

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
RiiDii
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Posted: 6th May 2005 15:39 Edited at: 6th May 2005 15:45
I test most everything I post here on my pc at work, which is pretty darn slow. But I think it was maybe the wait keys. I had a ton of trouble getting print statements to play nicely with the sprites.

The one-string was due to the clipboard. I was going to write to a file, but I had a lot to debug and the writing to a file had to be done after the complete run (writing as it went along didn't work too well). So that's why I did the Write To Clipboard. Now that it works, the one string can be written to a file after decrypting.

These challenges are supposed to be No-Media challenges. Three reasons IMO. 1) Inspire creativity in finding ways to work-around using media. 2) Not let the media get in the way of the true coding challenges. 3) Last and least; reduce on space on this thread and download times as well as coding-time since models, images, music, and sound could end up taking a lot of time away from coding. It's not a media challenge after-all. Despite this, there is some very impressive media in this thread: i.e. Ric's no-media music was extremely good work.

No. A text editor won't see the data, but a hex editor probably will unless DBPro encrypts (even slightly). Here's a very basic hex-viewer code in DBPro. Replace the file with your code's .exe file name. Then run it. Press any key to view the next "page". I suspect on one of the first few pages, you will see the words "D,a,t,a". Those are your data statements. I don't know how DBPro stores the numbers that follow - maybe as DWords or DFloats or something, but a hacker would take the time to find out. A hex editor also comes with a ton of tools that make reading a file like these easy. Also, go through the rest of the file - you may find it very interesting how much extra stuff is jammed into an .exe from DB.



It's quite likely you will also see bits and pieces of the rest of your code. Again, every bit of info makes it that much easier to decipher.

But I was just messing with you anyway. Even the encyption process I wrote can be figured out by a semi-decent hacker looking through the .exe file. So - it's good code all the way around. The best bet would be to use the piture-encryption to hide the key (and maybe even a few other variables that would make reading the code tougher). Then, include the media in the compiled .exe file using DBPro's encrypt media option. So even after a hacker figures out the 1st layer picture encoding and maybe even the key-based encryption in your code, the hacker would also need to get the key, which won't happen until the encypted picture is cracked and the key is decrypted off of that. Not impossible, but damn tough.

Now - want to make it virtually impossible to crack? Add in a few dummy encrypting and decrypting codes that interact with, but never effect, the prime encrypting codes. Even the best hackers would have a time with that one. After all that hacking is done, you'd have to be able to figure out that some encryptions are dummies and then which ones to take out.

And good luck Nicholas on judging these things

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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IBOL
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Posted: 6th May 2005 18:34 Edited at: 6th May 2005 18:35
rii,
i did not mean to attack you in any way,
nor did i feel attacked by you in any way.
i just didn't get your joke, though i thought it was one.
i'm also not arguing with you,
and i never meant that your encryption *didn't work*,
just that i didn't understand it.

thanks for all that...

i used your program to look thru my .exe, but gave up after 15
minutes. i did modify your program to display more information per screen, and leave out the actual byte values. and look what it output at one point:


also i've just had the most ridiculously brilliant idea of where to hide the encryption key...

thanks rii,
bob

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 6th May 2005 18:44 Edited at: 6th May 2005 18:45
Quote: "also i've just had the most ridiculously brilliant idea of where to hide the encryption key..."


I'm on the edge of my seat!! *THUD* And now i'm on the floor.. What is your brilliant idea before I fall out the building? hehe.. Seriously - I am curious..

That is a brilliant idea - using an image as a key for the encryption! Very imaginative!

God this is gonna be hard to judge.. Maybe I should have thought about the judging a little more before I started this challenge..

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RiiDii
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Posted: 7th May 2005 00:32 Edited at: 7th May 2005 00:34
Bob, we're cool. I know we were both playing around - and it looks like you knew that too. Friendly compitition. I see you found the logo

I did get a little wordy - sorry about that. I must'a been more tired than I realized.

Edit: Can't wait to see where you hide it too!

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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Neofish
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Posted: 7th May 2005 02:55
Damn, I'm not even going to get runners up

IBOL
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Posted: 7th May 2005 05:21
my idea was to use the actual bytes of the .exe file of my encryption program as the key itself...then you could put
in misleading dummy keys all over the place, like riidii's message-in-a-picture, and seperate files, etc.

then i went to sleep and dreamed about data encryption all night long
(i'm not kidding...that actually happened)
and now i have an even better idea, that i'm simply not going to share at this time. (oops...just thought of a snag in my new process, though a small one.)

it is likely that i will leave my entry the way it is...though not 100% certain...then again, to me it's currently friday, 3pm. who knows when saturday will be to nick...

bob

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th May 2005 05:22
christ - there are some DAMNED good entries being turned out here!! This is gonna be Ãœber hard to judge!!

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IBOL
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Posted: 7th May 2005 07:16
i have a question about encryption in general...
i have been doing some web reading for the past few hours,
on different methods, an i have one question:

does someone always need either a private key ?
or maybe a copy of the program?
even to use sophisticated encryption somftware?

i can easily create a program that requires one or the other,
but not possibly without both.

two things i have not even employed are replacement and position shifting...though they would both be quite easy...
this has got me intriqued...

bob

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
RiiDii
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Posted: 7th May 2005 11:49
Not sure, but I suspect that either one or the other is needed. Using a copy of the program probably entails that the key is embedded as part of the program, even if it's a coded key instead of an actual key-sequence. I also suspect that most commonly, a password is used as the encryption key (or part of a key). So even if someone figures out the decryption process, the "key" is safely locked away in someone's head instead of in the code somewhere.

But if you are trying to proctect software from being copied, for example, the key is usually seperate from the program: on the disk jacket/case, emailed after registration or full purchase, and other similar methods. Hackers often crack those by by-passing the program lock(s) and convincing the program that the key has been supplied.

A few notes about any type of security:
1) No security is ever full proof; at it's best, it's just more work than what someone else is willing to do to get around it.
2) Security is more psychological than physical. Security is the attempt to convince the would-be thief that what is being sought is not worth the effort.
3) Security is a matter of inconvenience. In securing anything, the trick is to make security as convenient as possible to those with permission, and as inconvenient as possible to those without permission. Think about how much more convenient life would be if we didn't have to lock our houses and our cars and keep 2 dozen passwords stored in our brains.

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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IBOL
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Posted: 7th May 2005 16:28
well, here's my keymaker.
it is designed to make 2 keys, just as my program uses 2 keys.
one is a set of multipliers to each byte, the other is the number
of bytes written until a nonsense byte is written.

each key is unique, and generated based entirely on the name of the file. it is purely computational, using no data statements.

i still must concede that my encryption doubles file size.
but with all the nonsense added, it would be considerably harder to
crack, because you wouldn't know what was nonsense, or even that any existed, and nonsense is written as one byte, whereas data is written as 2 bytes, further throwing off any attempt to make sense of it or analyze it linearly.



http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
PowerSoft
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Posted: 7th May 2005 20:11
I think this is calling for a thing to happen to it like jess did for DBHELP. If i ge a few minutes i might make a webpage to store previous entires.

If thats ok with people?


Regards,
Rich

[b]PowerScript: Currently Working on Expression Evaluating, thanks alot DavidT for the help
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th May 2005 20:38
I'm already on it.. Hehe..

Its gonna be part of my new site. I have already developed a DBP Parser using PHP.

I was gonna spend a lot of time on it recently, but what with our servers at work decided to fail, me being ill and me needed sleep, I haven't had time!

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 7th May 2005 21:01
Hehe, great minds think alike.

I leave it for you.

[b]PowerScript: Currently Working on Expression Evaluating, thanks alot DavidT for the help
Neofish
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Posted: 7th May 2005 21:04
No, stupid minds think alike (Nick didn't realise object position y(ob) = 1 wont set it to one!!!)

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th May 2005 21:25
Lol - I was tired!! It was fridat and I'd just had a long and hard 3 day week finishing off by listening to music for a hour and a half.. Lol..

The parser is coming on well. Its a shame HTML has to pad the code so much to color it in

http://www.thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/index.php?page=projects

Thats an example.

Btw: Dont register on the site yet - its still very much WIP.

I am gonna work on it this afternoon, but I am going out in a bit as my old school is havign a mini-reunion... It'll be nice to see some people, and it'll be nice to have the oppertunity to point and laugh at others

Nick

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Neofish
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Posted: 7th May 2005 21:31 Edited at: 7th May 2005 21:32
Quote: "Lol - I was tired!! It was fridat and I'd just had a long and hard 3 day week finishing off by listening to music for a hour and a half.. Lol.."

I'm always like that, don't see me making mistakes

EDIT: The point in floats is black! Meant to be green

RiiDii
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Posted: 8th May 2005 01:27
Good work Nicholas!

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th May 2005 03:10
Is it me or is Nick 5 hours late?

Pi = 8
Phaelax
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Posted: 8th May 2005 04:43
I don't have time for this stuff anymore! Between work and school, I've got 60-70 hour days now. It sucks!

PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals
Neofish
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Posted: 8th May 2005 04:45
If I had days that long I wouldn't have the trouble of fitting things in...stop complaining

Pi = 8
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th May 2005 08:31
Sorry peeps - spent the day away from my PC (SHOCK!!!)

Currenlty, its too late for me to be thinking about encryption so I'm gonna take a good look through it tomorrow morning. This means you have another night (see, I'm so kind!)

@Phalaex:
Quote: "I've got 60-70 hour days now"


Now THAT sucks - especially as there is only 24 hours in 1 day

@Neofish - good point, I told it to check for numbers.. Hmm.. I'll need to make it check for "." too.. More accurately, a "." that has a number to the left of it,

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Neofish
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Posted: 8th May 2005 08:58
no, just to the right...you can have .5

Pi = 8
Phaelax
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Posted: 9th May 2005 04:36 Edited at: 9th May 2005 04:36
I meant week, not day!

whens the next challenge?

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 04:43
When I have decided a winner.. And its proving VERY hard.. Spent a large part of the afternoon looking at them - still going.. I ended up getting dragged out for a family meal..

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Neofish
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Posted: 9th May 2005 04:44 Edited at: 9th May 2005 04:44
2 DAYS LATE, EDIT: Hurry up already!

I think I should judge...I vote for myself!

Pi = 8
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 05:41
Lol - sorry for the delay.. Ok, I have tested and looked through all the entries.. Shame there were not so many this time! :-(

Anywho, for those that did enter (IBOL, RiiDii, NeoFish and Tomu) - thank you.. Your code entries were all excelent, even when no finished (Tomu )

Here is my "judging" comments (done in reverse date entry order.. Ie the order I found them when looking back from last post ):
IBOL Review:
+ Encryption of Bliss.BMP sucessfull with no errors.
+ Took approx 6 seconds to encrypt, 4 seconds to decrypt.
+ Output readable.
+ encoded file not obviously the same.
- Encoded file size was factor of over 2.1 times bigger.
- no code commenting and very little indenting.

RiiDii review:
+ Output file readable as a BMP, cunningly disguised!
+ Encryption and decyrption seems pretty fast, although its only doing a small amount of text. Couldn't try Bliss.BMP
+ Encryption algorithm short and simple.
- Lots of data comments used, no option for encrypting own file..
- Encoded file size was factor of 1.3333 times bigger.
- no code commenting...

Neofish:
+ Very well commented and written code
+ Comes with its own key generator
+ Output is precisely the same size as the input.. No bigger!
+ Everything done using functions so its easily implemented in another program
- Output looks pretty similar. Characters are different, but layout is preserved
- Security is low. Although you have added the key to the ASCII, it is still possible this is crackable by trial and error.. Although I suppose all of these are given time...
- Output is SLIGHTLY different (ie there is an extra carrage return on the last line )
- Only works for ASCII... Bliss.BMP Failed to encode (produced emtpy file)
- VERY slow...

Tomu:
Unfortunately unfinished, would have liked to have seen where that was going!


An the result are in (In the style of Eurovision Song Contest)..


THAT WAS TOUGH!!

Final comments (done in a code box to avoid a spoiler )


Onto the next challenge peeps!!!

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Ric
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Posted: 9th May 2005 06:50 Edited at: 9th May 2005 06:51
Nice reviews Nick, and congratulations Ibol. That challenge produced some good stuff. Way over my head, though. What's next, then?

By the way - post 1000 is coming up, and I intend to get it!!!

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 07:37
Hey - I've got my eye on post 1000

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Neofish
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Posted: 9th May 2005 07:38
I've got my eye on 999

Pi = 8
Tomu
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Posted: 9th May 2005 11:32
sorry nicholas, i did not get to finish my entry due to lack of time and too many exams i will try and enter the next one. this time of year is busy busy busy

lots of nice entries this week!

well done bob for winning and very nice entries from Mr riddee and Mr neofish!

Tomu



- 3.4Ghz - 2048MB RAM - RADEON X800SE -
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 11:33 Edited at: 9th May 2005 11:39
Ok people - I have got a basic version of the database up and running.

I THINK I have got everyones (last) entries for the first challenge..

http://www.thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/index.php

Take a browse around the DB Challenge Database (at the bottom left panel).

The site is still in its alpha stages, but if you find any bugs I'd appreciate a message, probably best to send them to postmaster@thingy-ma-jig.co.uk to stop this thread getting hijacked.

I'd also advise that you dont sign up for the site QUITE yet - I'll probably end up clearing the table a few times before its ready

My aim is that when people have signed up, the site is going to be partially content managed by the "public" when it comes to the database. I'm gonna make user levels. All people here get their own username and privilege to do somethings that normal users dont.

Ric - I might need a hand here, could you maybe help me get all the posted code?

Also - does ANYONE know if a way to make lines wrap in HTML if there are no spaces? Some peoples coding style makes it look like they're afraid of the space bar and this means my parser wont wrap the lines right..

Nick

EDIT:
Ok, here is the parser. For those that are any good at PHP (or even a little good, or maybe even fancy a sub-challenge ) this is the code. ANY improvements are welcome. This is open-source!




EDIT 2:
Attached the list of DBP Commands...

My Website:

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IBOL
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Posted: 9th May 2005 15:01
thanks for the confidence nicholas. i really got into this one,
and i don't see how i could have used my current scheme and made
the files much shorter...it did get me to study encryption and compression though, and that was interesting.

well...i will actually take suggestions about a next challenge...
what do you guys want to see? and something that a lot of people will
have a try at. i had a hard enough time coming up
with the last one i did... i'm immersed in the puzzle game compo right now...

give me a few hours (like about 20)...

of course, the challenge could be to code me a puzzle game...

bob

http://astrumgames.com
completed games: Astrum Erus, Centipoid, Hero Of Garaven, WarpFlight, Higher Ground , Circular Breakout
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 18:51
Thats not a half bad idea - a no-media puzzle challenge.. you could put Ãœber restrictions on it, like cubes and <100 lines only (I know I'm a masochist )

I think i've noticed that the best challenges are the most simple (as most people can do them). I found with that last one that as most people couldn't do encryption or compression and they didn't have time to learn for this, not that many entered.

oo..oo.. how about maze generation?
or.. umm... a pretty pattern generator?

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Tomu
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Posted: 9th May 2005 18:59
oooh lets do physics, car physics, boucy ball physics... other physics...

or a maze generator.... or... ummmm... a pretty pattern generator...?

or a pirate game!!!! everyone loves pirate games!!!!

hmmmm....

ah well. whatever the challenge ill try and join in this week

Tomu



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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th May 2005 19:32
Quote: "or a maze generator.... or... ummmm... a pretty pattern generator...?"


Those were my idea's you copy-cat!

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Tomu
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Posted: 9th May 2005 20:29
hmmmm... i wondered where i got such a LAME idea from

Tomu.



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Nicholas Thompson
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Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 9th May 2005 21:29
lmao - such quick wit!

Hmm.. only 7 posts to go till 1000.. Its almost worth repeatedly double posting Hehe..

Has anyone had a chance to check out the system I have made on my (new) site for this? I would appreciate some feedback.

Nick

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RiiDii
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Location: Inatincan
Posted: 10th May 2005 01:39
Post #994.
I think peeps are waiting for the 999 and/or 1000 posts before they post

That's a great site Nicholas!! It's going to make going through the codes a lot easier than trying to guess which page they were on in the thread.

@Ric. You definately should put a link to Nic's website on the first post.

"Droids don't rip your arms off when they lose." -H. Solo
REALITY II
Neofish
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Joined: 7th Apr 2004
Location: A swimming pool of coke
Posted: 10th May 2005 02:24
Quote: " lmao - such quick wit!"

Not really, it took him an hour...

Quote: "I think peeps are waiting for the 999 and/or 1000 posts before they post"

Yes yes I am *muaha*

#995

Pi = 8
Ric
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Posted: 10th May 2005 03:52
Good work on the database Nick. I'll give you a hand gathering the source code - I'll start at the most recent and work backwards, so if you or anyone wants to speed up the process, they can go from the beginning and work forwards until we meet.

Shall I email them to you as text files? If so, I'll name each file according to the following format: "challenge number_author.txt", and I'll compile a list of challenge titles corresponding to the numbers.

And if the link you gave above is going to stay the same, I'll add it to post number 1.

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 10th May 2005 04:34 Edited at: 10th May 2005 04:35
the link will temporarily stay the same - when the site nears completion, it'll lose the "new/" part.

That format is fine - thanx

EDIT: 997

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mm0zct
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Location: scotland-uk
Posted: 10th May 2005 05:18
998 just to help neofish

http://www.larinar.tk
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Neofish
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Location: A swimming pool of coke
Posted: 10th May 2005 05:19
999th!!

Pi = 8
Neofish
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Posted: 10th May 2005 05:19 Edited at: 10th May 2005 05:19
1000th!!!

har har you lot suck


I need to get a life

Pi = 8

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