Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Author
Message
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 02:27 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 02:28
Quote: "the question is can dark basic provide enougn mesh infomation, and still run fast enough to simulate phyiscs inside its main loop."
yes, i am almost sure it can.

Quote: "
but your 1) reinventing the wheel which exists in free versions already"

newton is designed in a way that it takes many lines of code and a lot of effort to get it to work, dominating your project.
ODE is way too slow, although it is included with db.

those two are the two main ones, and the only good ones i know of.
we want to be able to control every aspect of the engine, including physics.
Quote: "
2) if you create your own physics engine, what comes of it then"

we could release it for free after the project is done...


forever loading...
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 03:55
Quote: "
we want to be able to control every aspect of the engine, including physics. "


no comment...but isnt darkbasic already an engine? because it handles everything really and you just tell it what to do. but none the less, explain more of the tech.

anyway how do you plan to go about it, will it support concave mesh's or just convex, please explain (i find this sort of thing facinating)

also, aswell will it use loads of globals (can you global arrays?) or will be be lots of subroutenes?

i'd guess subroutenes, because then the variables are "global" by default effectivly.

anyway do tell.

on more thought actually, i suppose each vertext has a moment, and you caculate that right?

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 09:33
Quote: "on more thought actually, i suppose each vertext has a moment, and you caculate that right?"


A good way that I was thinking about doing is to find out the forces on each side of the centre of mass (limb 0) of an object. This could be mass which would involve finding the x/z offsets of the vertices and finding the net force from that.

Quote: "anyway how do you plan to go about it, will it support concave mesh's or just convex, please explain (i find this sort of thing facinating)"

Ill do the collision first then work on the odder harder stuff like concave objects if you want. Could be easier to just not use them in the game,but if its a proper engine then this support could be added.

Quote: ""the question is can dark basic provide enougn mesh infomation, and still run fast enough to simulate phyiscs inside its main loop.""

Yes, unless I code really inefficiently.

Quote: "Collision and gravity are easy...it's calculating the resulting velocities that gets tricky."

I have a plan.

kaedroho,

increase velocity by 9.81*elapsedtime#
set y position to y+yvelocity*elapsedtime#
do collision
position object
set y velocity to (current y position - old y position)/elapsedtime#

itll be faster if you add on the velocity at the end and just do collision from position -> position + velocity That way you're only doing one addition.

Quote: "getting the collision can be done by position and object height, but what if it has a sharp point off center, how will the engine turn it to fall on its side."


Quote: "I thought this was only player collission.
That would require forces to be applied to the object, which is very complicated maths."


Quote: "no, this is the physics system... and yes the math is complicated. but monk is first going to program collision, and then the other stuff. and when he gets to that stuff i think he will be able to handle it."


The maths isn't that complicated but programming it quickly and realistically will be. I'm happy I can do it if given enough time.

Mobiius
Valued Member
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Feb 2003
Location: The Cold North
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 10:16
@Havok:

Quote: "can you global arrays?"

Arrays are global by default.

Quote: "isnt darkbasic already an engine? because it handles everything really and you just tell it what to do."

No it isn't, it's a programming language because you have to tell it how to do everything. A game engine already knows how to do everything, you just tell it how the world looks and how the controls work.

Picture the difference between Darkbasic, and the unreal engine and you'll see the difference. Unreal already has physics, networking, collisions, player controls, effects and everything. Darkbasic does not. (Unless you program it to)

Your signature has been erased by a mod because we're sadistic losers with nothing better to do. (joke)
kaedroho
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2007
Location: Oxford,UK
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 14:01
Dude... use my code for player movement. Use newton for physics.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 15:17 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 16:03
ok, can i see your code again? we can use newton for physics, or we could actually use ode. you said it was too slow, but i tested it, and it is quite efficient and easy to use. or we could both let monk handle all of that and not worry about it at all.


forever loading...
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 16:19
you should worrie

physics simulations are like proper maths, with countless books each with a countless number of pages, just use newton or something, from people who have forgotten more then the sum of what we know :/

really you wont regret it (once you put your chosen engine into function form)

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 16:22 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 16:26
ok, newton or ode, i would prefer ode, i looked at it, much easier. i hope monk didn't get too far, it would be unfortunate to have that wasted.

[edit] here is a little demo: ( if you have a recent upgrade it shouldn't need a dll)



forever loading...
BMacZero
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: E:/ NA / USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 16:57
If you do physics from scratch it would probably need to be C++. DarkBASIC would probably be too slow.



HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 16:58
there is some ODE physics i used once (and now cant find) that was okay...


also guys, would you have any use for my upcoming addon, DarkSQL ^_^

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 16:59 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 17:04
can you run this, and tell me what fps you get:

ignore the fact it runs too fast to be seen, if that is the case. all i want is the fps.

[edit]Havoc, i'll look at it right now.


forever loading...
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 17:02 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 17:04
1005 average. over 5 secods of do-loop

[edit i have not done selects yet, but they'll be done in the next hour tops, then you can add and view data, it'll be very easy to do, and as its functions and all "open source" you can change what you will, and no GNU means you dont have to post it eather ]

hope it helps, anyway, yes. i'd be an honner to have some sort of contribution, with school coming back up, sixth form now, i doubt ill have time for anything longer term

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
BMacZero
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: E:/ NA / USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 17:04
An unchanging 693.



thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 17:08
BMacZero and Havoc: great.

HavokDelta6:
it looks really good. we are using lua for scripting, but we could use that for saving/loading save points and options.


off-topic, but what do you think we should do for multiplayer?
if we do internet, with people joining games and chatting in between, that will be better, but much harder. or we could just stick to network multiplayer, simpler but less fun. I am not the internet expert though, whoever will be programming that should decide.


forever loading...
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 17:13
I could probably help there, also you should consider using my Explode command set for parsing of your own language, Lua costs, and may have license strings attached should you want to share

if you had a command in your syntax like so

size:10&num:1

you could explode that at the "&" to get

size:10

and

num:1

as chunks, then explode them at the ":"

then chunk 2 contains your data
so if chunk1 = "num" then chunk2 = ob_id

sort of thing. anyway its your call.
should you want me to do networking though i'd use multisync, which is still pretty good, and more then enough for this kind of project, espcecially since Ben disabled the Nagal Algorytham.

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 17:20
Quote: "you should worrie

physics simulations are like proper maths, with countless books each with a countless number of pages, just use newton or something, from people who have forgotten more then the sum of what we know :/

really you wont regret it (once you put your chosen engine into function form)"


What do you count as proper maths? I'd say its more proper physics, and as much physics as I have covered, to do a fair realisitic representation of physics, the maths is simple. The equations get a little more complicated but theyre still easy.

The countless books with countless pages... You don't need that to do normal physics from the real sized world, only if you're doing smaaall stuff do you get countless books trying to explain it to you. But we're not doing that.

You don't need to worry.

IMO, if we can't decide which physics to use, or who's movement to use, then we shouldn't be thinking about multiplayer. We haven't got anything to send over a network yet.

BMacZero, depends how much detail you use. I agree physics will possibly be one of the greater CPU eaters, but that depends how much stuff you add, which tricks you use and how realistic you try to make it.

I wouldn't know where to start with Newton and ODE, but its alright thenerd I hadn't got that far into programming it.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 18:00 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 18:01
Quote: "IMO, if we can't decide which physics to use, or who's movement to use, then we shouldn't be thinking about multiplayer. We haven't got anything to send over a network yet."
yea, it was just a random thought.

i can help with ode, there are a few tutorials out there that would help. i will give you some examples when i find them.


forever loading...
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 28th Aug 2009 18:06 Edited at: 28th Aug 2009 18:13
here is an ode command list, i will test them out to find out more what they do.



forever loading...
JRH
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Jul 2006
Location: Stirling, UK
Posted: 29th Aug 2009 14:27
Sorry, I might have to drop out. I'm just to busy working on Welkin Script.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 29th Aug 2009 15:02
ok, that is fine. the boat was great, though!


forever loading...
JRH
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Jul 2006
Location: Stirling, UK
Posted: 29th Aug 2009 18:13
Scrap that, Welkin can wait.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 29th Aug 2009 18:43
okay...


forever loading...
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 30th Aug 2009 00:01
sorry for double posting, i just wanted to say that i will be on vacation for a week, so i can't do any programming work. I CAN still do design stuff and i will still post, i just don't have db for a week.


forever loading...
Neuro Fuzzy
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Jun 2007
Location:
Posted: 30th Aug 2009 00:38 Edited at: 30th Aug 2009 01:27
Quote: "What do you count as proper maths? I'd say its more proper physics, and as much physics as I have covered, to do a fair realisitic representation of physics, the maths is simple. The equations get a little more complicated but theyre still easy.

The countless books with countless pages... You don't need that to do normal physics from the real sized world, only if you're doing smaaall stuff do you get countless books trying to explain it to you. But we're not doing that.

You don't need to worry.
"


What? Programming physics is far from easy! Just 2d physics would be hard.

Let's say you have a cube size 1 at point (12.5,15.12,434.1) that weighs 23 kilograms, with a directional force of (0,1,0) newtons acting on it from point (11,16,435). Can you find the rotational and directional speeds of the object after 6.5 seconds?

That's just doing the math, not counting fast collision detecting and the like.


Anyways, if you'll give me a while, i'll write up a program to compare ODE physics with Newton physics (as far as speed is concerned).

Newton physics has always been the fast and accurate method i've used. I get about 200 fps during the bulk of the collision in your ODE demo, which is slow for just physics.

Also, i'd be happy to chip in some. I think i'll go about updating the Wiki. It's hardly open source if it's really hard to find the source code.

[edit]
Quote: "Then all Media files should be encrypted, compressed zips with a different extension. And have the following files in it.
"

This is from a while ago but... Isn't this Open source and generally open? Shouldn't everything be unencrypted and open for everyone to use, edit, and learn from?

[edit2]
I think that some things need to be decided upon. There was alot of stuff that was discussed but not decided upon.

Is XML\lua being used?
What kind of file system is being used?
What kind of coding conventions will be followed?
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 30th Aug 2009 01:08
hey guys here's an image from my DarkSQL plug-in

@TheNerd.

Do you think it will be of use, the line with the %%%% and &&& is a debug line, as are the compare ones, I am referring to the field ones at the bottom.

enclosed

picture


GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 30th Aug 2009 13:16 Edited at: 30th Aug 2009 13:17
Quote: "Let's say you have a cube size 1 at point (12.5,15.12,434.1) that weighs 23 kilograms, with a directional force of (0,1,0) newtons acting on it from point (11,16,435). Can you find the rotational and directional speeds of the object after 6.5 seconds?

That's just doing the math, not counting fast collision detecting and the like."


F = MA (for the y-axis)
A = 1/23 m/s^2

V = U + AT
V = U + 13/46 m/s

Therefore its new velocity is 13/46 m/s faster in the y-axis than any previous velocity it had if it wasn't stationary.

That's ignoring the fact that the cube using our scale is 1.6cm^3 and has a near impossible density. And how can an object exert a force straight upwards on another object without it being directly above it. Rotational velocities will be harder to work out normally, but since this only has an upwards force, I'd imagine the object wouldn't rotate.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 30th Aug 2009 16:37 Edited at: 30th Aug 2009 16:58
Quote: "F = MA (for the y-axis)
A = 1/23 m/s^2

V = U + AT
V = U + 13/46 m/s"
and that is why i am not doing physics!

Quote: "Newton physics has always been the fast and accurate method i've used. I get about 200 fps during the bulk of the collision in your ODE demo, which is slow for just physics."
what hardware do you get? i get 400 fps on a geforce 6200!

Quote: "Also, i'd be happy to chip in some. I think i'll go about updating the Wiki. It's hardly open source if it's really hard to find the source code."
that would be great, i am getting too busy to edit that.

Quote: "Is XMLlua being used?"
lua all the way!

Quote: "What kind of file system is being used?"
we have talked about that, but not quite decided...
Quote: "What kind of coding conventions will be followed? "
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=154924&b=1&msg=1813308#m1813308


forever loading...
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 2nd Sep 2009 02:21 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2009 02:22
just a random question: do people think that lights and light placement is needed in the editor? shadows are automatic, but since the game is outside i am not sure this is necessary. if it is, i might buy darklights to do that.


forever loading...
BMacZero
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2005
Location: E:/ NA / USA
Posted: 2nd Sep 2009 02:29
Lighting is going to be necessary as long as any of the scenes will be indoors or at night. I suppose dynamic lights like flashlight can be covered with awesome, free shaders like EVOLVED's, but a lot of it could be lightmaps, and only one person would need DarkLIGHTs to generate the lightmaps.

@Havok: Could you size that pic down?



JRH
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Jul 2006
Location: Stirling, UK
Posted: 2nd Sep 2009 09:15
I own a copy of DarkLIGHTS and have found it quite useful so far. Maybe I could have a go at lightmapping?

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 2nd Sep 2009 16:17
i bought the DGS bonanza, so i have darklights and will be using it in the level editor.


forever loading...
HavokDelta6
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 2nd Sep 2009 16:27
@ The nerd

Can you add me on MSN please, alec[dot]teal[at]googlemail(dot)com

I've got something you may like

GCSE results:
2 a's 3 b's AND
5 (FIVE) a*'s ^_^
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 4th Sep 2009 02:45
can you email it to me? i am on vacation, and i don't want to set up msn on the computer i am currently using. when i get back home I might set it up, but i can't right now.


forever loading...
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 10th Sep 2009 23:07
I'm home! school has started, but i still have time to code. over on the blitzterrain forums, it looks like kaedroho is basically done blitzterrain 1.06, so soon i can resume work on the level editor...


forever loading...
kuljot
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jan 2009
Location: sacramneto, ca united states
Posted: 11th Sep 2009 08:07
Hey thenerd what grade are you in. I live in california and i am in 10th grade.

Gateway GT5628 Quad Core Desktop Intel Core 2 Q6600 2.4GHz Quad Core 3072MB RAM / 500GB 7200 SATA II Hard drive DVD RW 18X multi dual NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT ....
theghost
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2009
Location:
Posted: 11th Sep 2009 15:04
tanks for that
kaedroho
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2007
Location: Oxford,UK
Posted: 11th Sep 2009 19:03
Quote: "it looks like kaedroho is basically done blitzterrain 1.06, so soon i can resume work on the level editor..."


It was a very early release beta. No LOD. No frustum culling. And all the RTMS commands will produce a "command not recognised" error.

Give it a few more weeks.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 11th Sep 2009 21:42 Edited at: 11th Sep 2009 21:42
kaedroho, i looked at it, the demos great! i am in school now, so a few weeks will seem like nothing. and during that time i can work more on my entity system...


forever loading...
Dared1111
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 18:57
I'm studying AS levels Physics, Maths, IT, History and Welsh Baccalaureate.

When will people need the new version of the Document by?

Signature? There is no signature!
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 20:17
take as long as you like!
how about within the next two weeks?


forever loading...
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 20:52
Quote: "I'm studying AS levels Physics, Maths, IT, History and Welsh Baccalaureate."

IT or Computing?
If you meant IT then have fun =P I hated it and have dropped it for A2
Computing sounds so much more fun but I couldn't schedule it in.

My school free time is likely to drop as I'm trying to do 2 years of Further Maths in one =)

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 21:33 Edited at: 12th Sep 2009 21:40
Dared, you need to study game design.
actually, based on your design docs, you don't need to, you already rock at that.

Oh, monk, based on your blog it seems you are having trouble with physics? i got some more info on ode, if you are really stuck we could use that, its really easy once you figure out the commands. We could chat sometime when you are free, i could help explain it. I can't get a msn account though, do you have gmail?

Quote: "I’m spending too long playing and not long enough figuring out the physics for my game…"
I was supposed to be working on my level editor, instead i beat half-life. again.


forever loading...
kaedroho
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2007
Location: Oxford,UK
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 21:47 Edited at: 12th Sep 2009 21:48
Are you still making your own physics engine?? Good luck with that!

I really dont think that Dark basic is the program to do it in. If you really are desparate to make your own, use something with a little more power. Also, making your own physics engine is a bit of a waste of time. Especially when theres newton already made.

ODE is slow.

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:03 Edited at: 12th Sep 2009 22:04
i know that making our own is out of the question. although I would prefer ode, I will trust your opinion that newton is what we should use. Monk, do you know how to use newton?

kaedroho, was this the file system we agreed on using? if it was, everyone should download this so we all have the same structure.

I also have a bit of free time today, so i could quickly whip up a menu system...


forever loading...
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:46
Quote: "i know that making our own is out of the question. although I would prefer ode, I will trust your opinion that newton is what we should use. Monk, do you know how to use newton?
"


I agree, it is not gonna work, one of my plans was that I write something that works and then someone who knows Newton of ODE upgrade it to use a plugin and better commands.
Thats not the problem though, the problem seems to be my ideas behind the code, not my code. And a lack of free time to code my ideas...

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:47 Edited at: 12th Sep 2009 22:48
Quote: " and then someone who knows Newton of ODE upgrade it to use a plugin and better commands."

do you know enough about newton to start using it?


forever loading...
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:48
Nope

I had a look at the commands once and got lost

thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:49
so did I.
but ill look at it now...


forever loading...
thenerd
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:51
here is the latest version:
http://www.newtondynamics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=849


forever loading...
Monk
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2008
Location: Standing in the snow =D
Posted: 12th Sep 2009 22:51
Okey dokes,

Im gonna unistall all my pc games and will start doodling physics ideas on my notepad again. Im close to getting it to work I hope =)

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-08-08 16:03:24
Your offset time is: 2025-08-08 16:03:24