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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Dark Basic Elite - A Question

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Juggernaut
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Posted: 31st Jul 2012 22:05
Quote: "Lead programmer ULIDIA"
What is your website ?
SamKM
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 01:37
I would definately back this move all the way
To be honest, I've been really worried recently that the language is slipping behind, and I've felt that an announcement might be coming up that the language was going to be dropped altogether! I'm pleased to hear that this is not so!
Good luck with the overhaul!
Arnold Archibald
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 10:18
Dark Basic was a genius concept for its time, a fun and exciting way in for a n00bie at the turn of the century.
Dark Basic Pro was a giant leap forward, mere promise, but failed where it was most important, in its documentation system.
The broad concept we should agree on is that Dark Basic, as a programming environment, is both a language and set of tools to produce 3D entertainment, a task which it has struggled to fully achieve.

(Please excuse this segway into semi-competitor territory)
Last year I bought PureBasic (it too suffers from imperfect documentation), it can compile its code for use on PC, Mac & Linux as it uses a 3D engine called OGRE, an object orientated environment.
If you've ever read OGREs documentation, its an extraordinary leap forward in platform independant rendering, I'd nigh on say its conceiver is a visionary.
As the PureBasic help file says 'why reinvent the wheel'.
PureBasic already handles 2D, partial 2D & 3D, and fully 3D windows, has support for a wide range of variable types, is multi-thread capable and (I love this bit) it allows inline assembly.

So why bring up what others are doing?
You've already crossed paths with the PureBasic developement team and you're both trying to achieve a very similar thing.
It's time you collaborated with the PureBasic team to:
A) cut down rewriting time.
B) redevelope and standardize the BASIC language into the object orientated future.
C) diversify to open DarkBASIC up to other operating systems.
D) support multiple 3D APIs abstractly, the DarkBASIC programmer types the same DB commands and selects which API to use.
E) include the tools to create the media (3D files, materials, shaders, BSPs, prerendered lighting, networking, etc).
F) include complete physics, as it's expected of modern gaming.
G) open DarkBASIC up to PCs without dedicated 3D hardware.
H) allow creation and use of standard dialog boxes, menus, etc.

...and so much more.
Feel like you'll lose out financially by integrating all the plugins?
If the core software 'Studio' is all inclusive you can charge that higher amount of $150 maybe more.
And most of all, this makes the TGC family bigger and future proof.

Has anyone seen where I left my other signature?
I've already checked under the sofa.
Maybe the dog ate it...
Duffer
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 12:02 Edited at: 1st Aug 2012 12:26
Some more thoughts / reasons for me saying yes / ideas:-

- coming at it with the skillset gained over the last decade+;
- future proofing (and future support!), better documentation, far more comprehensive command set encompassing most of the essential type plugins of DBPro;
- Direct X 11, up to Windows 8;
- compression and compiling - real gains when compiling to .exe in terms of speed / compression / optimisation;
- full physics and AI command set;
- comprehensive databases support command set;
- proper 2d and 3d command set incl raytracing to object & limb, full terrain (as object) commands, shaders, easy water shaders implementation, 2d sprites with full and pixel collision, full string command set incl tokens and fields etc etc;
- environmental 3d commands - not just fog and lights - but proper cloud, etc command set dovetailing nicely with terrain commands and water shaders etc;
- perhaps a basic 3d object skeleton for male/female - dovetailing with animation commands?;
- full dialogs (all of them) and gui commands - perhaps also a more flexible graphics gui a bit like TopGUI;
- proper documentation (I say it again, it's so important); and
- [BIG IDEA] as with purebasic, how about having an easy way to from DBProElite code compile to .dll plugin then usable in DBProElite (creating .dll, ini and even help file draft) from particular procedure/function code within DBProElite....? imagine how far that would take user development.

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Final Epsilon
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 12:27
Been away from the community for 4 years, saw the newsletter, and knew I had to find the relevant thread on the board in a heartbeat (amazing by the way that you guys have a product that can do that)

Price point is excellent. At $99 you can sign me up to be a day one purchaser.

I honestly don't even care too much for some of the fancier graphical features / compiler optimizations... a solid update to the core language would make me a very happy customer.

Forgive me for this mini-rant, but I've always believed that the true strength of DBP was not in state of the art graphics, but in the ability to dream up and prototype _any_ 3D game almost effortlessly. A few additions like a true object model, first class functions, additional syntactical sugar like function overloading etc. could really make the proposed elite product a joy to rapid prototype in. (honestly I'd pay $150+ for such a product).

I understand the nod towards procedural BASIC, but I also envision this amazing scenario where elite becomes the go-to language of choice for the code-based prototyping of any sort of game idea -- you guys probably know better than I, but it's a niche that I feel no other product on the marketplace really covers.

Anyways, regardless of the decision, you have my vote Trusting the TGC team to pull something amazing here.

And speaking as someone who really first cut their teeth on this language... thanks by the way for the past decade of awesome. Posting on these forums strangely feels like coming home.
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 12:42 Edited at: 1st Aug 2012 12:46
Wow, it seems most of us have their wish-lists pre-prepared! I would love to see an evolved version of DB, though I just bought AGK. I'm quite impressed by the elegance of the latter, even though it is still maturing.

For me, it depends what TGC's plans are for AGK. If they want to keep on improving it and position it as their main flagship, they are probably better of investing their resources soley into that. At the moment, it looks like AppGameKit doesn't offer the broad spectrum of functionality needed to code full-fledged Windows-programs. So:

- [IF] TGC doesn't plan to bring AppGameKit up to this level [AND] you want to develop stuff solely for Windows, DBPro is more powerful. DB Elite will be very welcome in this scenario, since it allows you keep up with progressing technology and users' expectations.

- [IF] TGC *does* plan to advance AppGameKit into the direction of DBPro's / DB Elite's functionality, the latter products will become essentially redundant. And, though the need for this advancement might seem far-fetched now, mobile technology is evolving very rapidly. It won't be before long that we'll see (and want to code) advanced console/PC-like stuff across a multitude of platforms. Stuff that will work on our PC's, but also on our smartphones and tablets. In this scenario, it will be better for TGC to focus development on AppGameKit alone.

So, will I put down $99 for DB Elite? *Probably* if TGC plans to 'split' their focus (AGK for mobile platforms and simple Windows-applications and DB Elite for advanced Windows stuff) and *No* if AppGameKit will mature like DBC/DBPro once did.
BatVink
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 16:16 Edited at: 1st Aug 2012 16:16
I have created the poll that Lee suggested, you can respond in under 30 seconds (or take a little longer to add a comment)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?pli=1&formkey=dC1RY3duOFJEc0xOR1Yzd29xd0pfZXc6MQ#gid=0

Gooney
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Posted: 1st Aug 2012 17:04
Now I really want it!

I'm in if you decide to go for it.

-Gooney

Uboats in space...hmmmm. Aces of the Vaccuum?
C0wbox
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 23:05 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2012 23:05
I basically moved to Java because the native multiplayer commands in DBP have ridiculous memory leaks. - Just watch PLANit in task manager and you'll see the memory usage steadily increase.

I don't like having to use plugins in a language advertised as offering me everything I'd need. I eventually found myself plugging everything in (multiplayer, physics, shaders) and using very little of the original language's intended features. (Even to the point where I used only 1 sprite and pasted it everywhere changing the picture and size each time instead of using multiple sprites.)

Actually now I see those 3 in brackets up there, I will stress theses topics and see who else agrees:

Dark BASIC Elite needs, for the average user, better native multiplayer commands, physics support (not an expensive, poorly supported plugin which just got replaced by DarkDynamiX anyway) and proper shader commands (I was disappointed by how pooly the shading commands under the 3D section worked).

Maybe if these kinds of things are actually addressed (and the obvious DirectX11 requirement) I might come back from Java. ... and finish World Off Road >DDDDD ... or some other similarly awesome project that failed due to DBP being useless in the longrun.

Le Verdier
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 00:49
The improvement I really wish about the compiler is a reasonable linker system,
to gain speed by avoiding recompiling the whole program! and code reusability
My TrackEditor project measured about 12000 lines @ 80% achieved
and 4900 for my current one (currently paused in fact) so it would be very welcomed for long projects!
As a result of, I now try a 20liner...
(should be ready in a couple of weeks)

wilindron
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 15:09
would be great an upgrade or a new engine compatible with new versions of Windows and DirectX. It would also be great compatibly with the current plugins (which are purchased), to keep the monetary investment.

I buy it.
basjak
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 17:40
worth paying for. bring it on.

Miguel Lobo
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 19:43
I don't know if this is a little bit off-topic, but better than having a more developed and fresh dark basic (call it elite), I believe that TGC will be better developing a visual game creator tool in the likes of game maker, scirra construct and even better clickteam MMF. Make it visual, and then empower it with a DBasic Lingo for the logic, put some exporters on it and BAM! Killer product!
Don't get me wrong, I love Dark Basic Professional, and I think bringing it to next level sure will have my support, but I guess I would love to see some major product from you guys that would boost game development from start to finish.

Windows 7 | Intel i7 | 6Gb Ram | ATI 4870X2
Arbrakan
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 20:24
I'am here, nice news ! Count me in !

c64 Maddddd
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 21:52
I use BlueGUI a lot in my apps. If DBElite have Windows GUI commands? I will definitely be buying it.

I'm not brilliant in programming, but out of all Basic tools out there, DBP is the only one I can understand well.

DarkBasic is grate on the PC, but..
the Commodore 64 is the BEST!!
C2H2
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 00:53
Yes, this seems great!
But I'm working on a game in DBPro and I need a better system to manage objects, like c# or c++ with names instead of numbers.
I'd like to see a syntax more like AppGameKit (or even more advanced)
MrValentine
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 07:00
@ C2H2 - Dark Resource

Kezzla
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 07:08
yeah, I would like to see some native gui commands, with all the bells and whistles bbb gui has.

also I would like native bitmap font support
and an improved input command - perhaps with the bitmap font input option. and control over draw order, allow the option of continuing 3d sync while input function is active.

commands for transparency draw order would be nice.

native folder and file encryption for media protection would be nice too.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
TheGrayOne
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 17:05
I would also consider it. Having the all the addons as part of the core library is a real plus.

I do hope the $99 price is correct and it's not £99 as that is more costly for us folks in the US.
MrValentine
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 18:17
Quote: " I do hope the $99 price is correct and it's not £99 as that is more costly for us folks in the US."


Not about you TheGrayOne... But I find that hilarious and was wondering how long it would take for someone to say it...



GreenDixy
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 19:00
£99 there is around 120-130$ here in canada

======================================
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
MrValentine
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 19:25
Have a look at the Adobe website, look at the US price for Adobe CS Master Collection [any of them] then switch to Pound Sterling... then see why I found the above hilarious...



Daniel wright 2311
User Banned
Posted: 5th Aug 2012 02:08 Edited at: 5th Aug 2012 02:31
If this post gets read, I would like to say, this about the new upgrade

materials, I want materials to show up on all models, this would get my buy if so.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
WLGfx
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 02:45
I've got some notes I'm working on that I'll post when I'm ready. They do need re-wording and also re-thinking...

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 05:20
Definitely consider DBE, but please reflect on all of the add ons that the community have created for DBPro over the years, and use that as a guide for steering DBE in the right direction.

My favorite add ons;

Matrix1 Utilities
Indigo IDE
Advanced 2D
XBox 360 Controller Library
Spark Wrapper
Particle Editor

I think the help & tutorial files should definitely be revamped too so that new comers feel more welcomed and become more productive quicker.

Help build an online DarkBASIC Professional help archive.
DarkBasic Help Wikia
Dar13
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 05:24
Quote: "If this post gets read, I would like to say, this about the new upgrade

materials, I want materials to show up on all models, this would get my buy if so."

What do you mean by materials? Textures? Shaders? Both of those are already possible in DBPro.

Daniel wright 2311
User Banned
Posted: 5th Aug 2012 07:44
Quote: "Both of those are already possible in DBPro."


When you create a model, you can apply materials to the model, then you can color them any color you want,but, in dark basic, pro, it does not read the materials,it only reads the textures.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
C2H2
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 18:19
Quote: "[quote]Both of those are already possible in DBPro."

When you create a model, you can apply materials to the model, then you can color them any color you want,but, in dark basic, pro, it does not read the materials,it only reads the textures.[/quote]

Yes, you mean like unity3d's materials
Dar13
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 21:04
Quote: "Yes, you mean like unity3d's materials"

Which is implemented by using a simple shader. All Unity does is remove the step of having the user create a shader to display the material they want shown.

Daniel wright 2311
User Banned
Posted: 5th Aug 2012 21:28 Edited at: 5th Aug 2012 21:29
Quote: "Yes, you mean like unity3d's materials "


I dont know how they aplly shaders, but, all models created will save the material info in the model, and the colors of the shaders at that.In milkshap and 3ds max they open your models with full materials aplied.

If we had this, we would not have to worry so much on shaders and or specular maps.

It would also help with saving on textures in alot of the models.

This is something I realy want,trully.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
Scraggle
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Posted: 5th Aug 2012 22:41 Edited at: 5th Aug 2012 22:43
Quote: "I do hope the $99 price is correct and it's not £99 as that is more costly for us folks in the US."


Not just you 'folks in the US', it would be more costly for everyone regardless of where in the world they are.

Features that I would love to see:
1) The use of Indigo IDE as standard, it is infinitely superior to any other IDE out there!
2) XBox 360 support - by that I mean creating an exe that can be uploaded to the XBox marketplace.
3) XBox 720 support - OK, it's early days but if TGC can get hold of a 720 dev kit and add support for it then all the better.
4) The resolution independent features that are found in AGK.
5) The combined command words that are found in AppGameKit (LoadObject instead of Load Object)

That's a 'top of my head' feature request list but even with none of them included - I would still buy!
basjak
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 06:26
Remember kinect commands..

feiting shadow
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 23:52 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 23:54
Back from the ashes of school and working on major iPad and iPhone titles, I would love to use DBP Elite given these things:

Hard coded types.
Methods on those types.

I've learned the value of #defines instead of random numbers appearing and enumerations instead of just integers when solid types are returned.

The ability to use node graphs and classes are way easier to manage than global integers, especially when a program reaches a certain size.

I do realize you guys made Tier 2 for that, but after showing some simple commands to show my roommate, I'm like "ugh, where's an ADT I can do stuff easily with?"

That aside, if DBP remained with the same syntax, as previously suggested, become more versatile. Leadwoerks, Unity3D, Torque3D all have the entire pipeline. DBP relies on, well them sometimes, to provide that.

If I were you guys, I'd try to give the total solution. Eg: Blender tutorial + DarkBasic + sounds.

I have WeatherCaster out in the app store now. I'm not the "only" coder, but I am the User Interface guy. I did the hourly, almanac, daily modules, all of the navigation and windows that pop up, but not the glossary nor the map (but I did the UI on that). My main problem is speed. I'm fast. But I am useless without an artist.

I'm fast because of you guys. I had to plan out games ahead of time because DBP is missing types. I'm going to bet everyone here is fast because DBP is awesome, we don't have to code the rendering system. You guys made an awesome product, but now we have tons of gaping holes where artists should be, yet art is nothing more than creation or mimicry, something an autistic fellow like me can do once I get a grasp on it (which I've done...)

Anyway I'll stop ranting. Basically, I'm interested, but I've got my feet wet into the hardcore stuff, and don't see why I'd step back at this point. You've probably realized similar, which is why you've moved to the portable code kits

edit: changed "probably" -> "problem", correction

Signed
------
Mobiius
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 20:52
I'd rather AppGameKit becomes what is planned for Dark Basic Elite. Put all this new cool commands / functions into AppGameKit as I like the ability to deploy to many platforms, but like the power of DBP.

I loved DBP when it came out right up until AppGameKit came out. Now, I program exclusively in AppGameKit and haven't even loaded the DBP editor at all. Rather than put this effort into a DBP we should already have, you should make AppGameKit have these features as it's what most people have asked for. (Multi-platform support being one of them) I know that if AppGameKit has all these features whilst having multiplatform support it would be a market leader. (In it's 'class')

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
McLaine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2012 11:59
Yes Lee, I would be interested at that price.

Before I parted with my money though, I'd need to see proper comprehensive documentation, a 99% bug free core command set, and assurance of regular continued development until 100% bug free.

Your company ought to be big enough to achieve that by now.

It's not my fault!
nick newbie
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 18:55
I think it is time for an upgrade and I wouldn't mind paying for it. All that I would ask for is maybe some sort up upgrade special. But, I'll leave that part to the accountants.

A higher tier product would be good for a number of reasons: For one you guys now have GameMaker to contend with and I think you guys could come up with a thing or two to make DB stand out from the pack in that regard maybe adding a few features to DB STD, Pro, and lots of features to Elite. I also think you could take some time to add new functions to the language or even templates that would make starting different game types easier. Say an RTS template, an FPS template, an arcade template etc. The reason I say this is that DB is as much a prototype tool as it is a full IDE.

I work in DB because I don't want to invest the time it would take to make the same project in C++ with Direct X etc. So, when I work on a project in DB I don't want to have to spend a lot of time coding the basics of the game structure. If the basics for each genre are already there then I can spend my time customizing the templates to suit my game and getting the many assets in place. Don't take away the blank slate, as that would back fire. But, offering more tools to get people up and running faster would be a great thing!

Thanks for giving us a chance to comment.

</Nicolas>
mnemonic
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 01:05
The idea of doing this elite version is brilliant, I like DBpro and FPSC. Yes, I agree,, sometimes they can be a bit buggy,,, but afterall,,, we´re talking about hi-tech stuff, and I belive in the power of TGC products, this would be another sucess! Count me in!!!

www.memblockgames.com
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 14:37
Quote: "Say an RTS template, an FPS template, an arcade template etc. The reason I say this is that DB is as much a prototype tool as it is a full IDE."


I think this is a good idea. I mean even if TGC don't do it, it's a nice idea for a member of the community to do.

Alkerak
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 14:43
For my point of view, I would only pay for the update if it has a good tutorial base.
And when I mean tutorial, I do mean tutorial in the fullest sense of the word.
What DB Pro has now cannot be named a tutorial. Not even the "Hands on" serios can be named a tutorial. "DarkBasic Diablo in 10 steps" is not a tutorial. Let's not kid ourselves here.
A tutorial is a piece of information that lets you achieve something. Look at the DarkPrinciples videos (well, you can't look at them, they are all gone). But look at those left. Teaching syntax and commands is not a tutorial. But how to achieve a destructable 2d terrain is. How to make a forest with random terrain is. How to make a game in ten steps is not. Because if I know the syntax but have no ideea of basic principles ... i just know the syntax and cannot apply it at all.

I would recommend a solid set of tutorials, like those that are done with darkprinciples. Why are they gone, i dont know ...
Balid
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 19:23
Should Lee and team be interested in Indigo as the IDE for Elite. I would be more than willing to bring Indigo out of mere hobby and into full production. To include documentation (of Indigo's features), putting in a more proper syntax error checking routine, and if TGC wanted make it compatible with both Pro and Elite. As well as make it exclusive to TGC.

All the best,

MrValentine
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 21:30
The tutorials are completely available... On youtube...

Juggernaut
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 23:31
Can you please point us there ?
Marvey
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 01:00
Balid thats something woule be very nice for db elite
Alkerak
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 05:23
Really? Where on youtube?
Dar13
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Alkerak
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 09:17
I knew that tutorial. But it only deals with syntax.
The guy had TONS of good tutorials like how to build a forest, etc.
Sadly they are deleted.
MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 09:24
YouTube username. DcForemanUK

Marco A G Pinto
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 10:25
I think it is a must for it to compile for Mac and Linux, since BlitzMax does that.

I want to release my software to Windows, Linux and Mac.

Kind regards,
>Marco A.G.Pinto
---------------
WLGfx
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 13:51
Okay, so openGL isn't as fast as DirectX on some machines due to my recently playing around with the DarkIrrlicht project, but, and a big but, I would be interested in buying the multi-platform version of Dark Basic Elite. And I'm a hard sell.

OpenGL runs perfect on all platforms and at a later date the DirectX renderer can be added for the Windows platform. On older machines, openGL is faster on certain graphics cards. And I'm sure there's a multitude of people out there, once this takes off, will be able to convert GLSL shaders to HLSL because that's really all there is to it.

Multi-platform and OO (similar to Blitz) will be the biggest upgrade and the biggest selling point.

Yep, I'd buy it...

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Aaron Miller
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Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 13th Aug 2012 22:28
Quote: "openGL isn't as fast as DirectX on some machines due to my recently playing around with the DarkIrrlicht project"

That's not true (or rather, is not a good method of evaluating that). The underlying issue is that there are separate drivers involved for both OpenGL and Direct3D. Additionally, Irrlicht (or any other API) may not be the best for judging that sort of thing since they might not be using optimal OpenGL paths. (There are many extensions to the GL API, and several of them provide access to the hardware Direct3D doesn't even have. e.g., GL_AMD_sparse_textures, WGL_EXT_swap_tear_control, etc.) Although Direct3D has an API that would allow for extensions, it's simply not there.

That said, your best bet in most Windows-based situations, performance wise, will be Direct3D 11. The API is cleaner. The drivers are more optimized for it (in general). It has some things OpenGL still doesn't have. (Such as a single shader bytecode format. Come on Khronos, step up your game and provide standards for that sort of thing.) Anyway, one of the banes of graphics developers is driver overhead. On consoles you can get away with directly accessing memory and interacting directly with the hardware if you need to. You don't really have that luxury on PCs, except for GL_AMD_pinned_memory (useful for integrated chips where system memory is shared). The difference though is that on PCs you have more powerful hardware exposed (in general).

Quote: "2) XBox 360 support - by that I mean creating an exe that can be uploaded to the XBox marketplace."

That's sort of a big thing. XNA is only supported for C# on XB360, right? DBP is written in C++. A lot of code will likely be re-used. And even if it were written entirely from scratch, a .NET language is really not the way to go. Period. The biggest reason for that is C and C++ get you a great balance of "level of hardware access" and "level of high level features." Plus, there are a ton of third-party libraries available for C and C++ to help with just about anything you can imagine. And it's easily cross platform. (.NET requires a bunch of frameworks. C and C++ don't if you know what you're doing.)

It would be better if TGC were granted a XB360 development kit. That way they could use C++ to access the hardware. But, they would only be working on an engine, not a game. And you wouldn't actually be able to target the platform with it either unless they did something like RPG Maker (PlayStation 2 title). (That'd be kind of cool, actually. FPS Creator for PC/PS3/XB360.) Will this happen? Probably not. It doesn't make much business sense to even try to target these platforms right now anyway. It'd be better to plan for the new consoles. (They should be coming around soon...)

Cheers,
Aaron

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