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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Dark Basic Elite - A Question

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Rich Dersheimer
AGK Developer
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Posted: 25th Sep 2012 01:00
I would buy it, if only to support TGC. But if it scraps the reliance on DX9c, I would actually USE it!

Duffer
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 22:33
Does FPSC 2 come first though...?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
The Weeping Corpse
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 23:36
I presume FPSC 2 would be written in Dark Basic Elite?

MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 27th Sep 2012 01:38
Quote: "I presume FPSC 2 would be written in Dark Basic Elite?"


The Weeping Corpse - AppGameKit by the looks of it... well AppGameKit / FDE

Rampage
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2012 00:33
FPSC 2 couldn't be written in AppGameKit haha.

I enjoy food quite a lot.
mistsnake
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2012 17:01
FPSC 2 - DBE or c++, it needs to be more powerful than the predessor not less
MrValentine
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2012 22:31
please go over here for that discussion...

Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2012 08:30
Would there be a new editor? One that's overall less buggy and more windows 7 friendly?

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
mistsnake
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2012 16:08
i don't have any issues with the synergy editor as i presume you mean the default one, once loaded it should be set as the default project one
jlahtinen
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Posted: 6th Oct 2012 01:46
Well, the F1 help is buggy (doesn't always open help on specific command).

Sometimes parts of the UI is black.


No big issues.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 10th Oct 2012 17:31
Any updates on this, Lee? Can we get word on whether this will happen or not? If DB Elite were made I would likely be one of the first buyers.

Mr909
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Posted: 10th Oct 2012 21:50
Under one condition:
The compiler must automatically associate my INCLUDEs without me having to do anything other than type INCLUDE. I have seen at least 5 newbies other than myself with this same problem, and word is that other Basic IDEs already do that.


If that fool-proofing system was added, certainly And I'm college-bound, so you know it means something to say I'd still spring the cash for it.
nonZero
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Posted: 11th Oct 2012 15:00
Quote: "The compiler must automatically associate my INCLUDEs without me having to do anything other than type INCLUDE. I have seen at least 5 newbies other than myself with this same problem, and word is that other Basic IDEs already do that."


So does DBPro....Or it's SUPPOSED to do that:

and then append myFunctionLib to the end of the file. There are several bugs that actually cause an error with this, the most common one being when it INCLUDEs twice. You can check the precompile source-dump and you'll find this. Some more exotic bugs seem to arise from file-path problems but I can't pin them down. As I have mentioned earlier in the thread, DB needs a more optimized compiler and especially a better editor.

Dar13
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Posted: 11th Oct 2012 16:36
The include command is rendered irrelevant because you can just add that file to the project and it's 'included' automatically. That causes the include twice error that you get.

As for a better editor goes, Indigo is a great editor by Balid. It's stable, feature-full, and under active development.

nonZero
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Posted: 12th Oct 2012 09:18
Quote: "The include command is rendered irrelevant because you can just add that file to the project and it's 'included' automatically. That causes the include twice error that you get."

When I got this error in the past, it was not the case. I'm old fashioned and will avoid a GUI like the plague. Consequently, I simply would type "#INCLUDE "etc" " and not do anything with the project explorer. Still got the error. So I went back to using the old editor again and simply updating the compiler/help. Well, it works a little now but I often get path errors (not found) with both relative and absolute paths. Anyway, I still prefer the old editor, even putting include aside. I shall have a look at that editor you mentioned and if it make life simple and loads fast and is stable, I shall be eternally grateful to you as I've actually considered home-brewing an editor lately because I'm desperate for a simple, coherent, stable, fast one. I actually even made a joke earlier in this thread about my old-fashioned-ness with editors (posted a pic of the old QB editor from DOS days and said I wished the DBE editor would look like that - part of me wasn't joking).
That segways me into the next thing: the include command is anything but irrelevent. For people like me who find typing easier than click, click, click and who do not like being dependant on graphical UIs, include is vital. Especially if one were to work with a library made of many small files (for creating smaller executables, say). So yeah, basically it's like if an OS stopped supporting the terminal and forced you to do certain things through the GUI *cough* Windows *cough*. Anyhow, I'm probably the only person here who has the minimalist philosophy on editors and OSes so I think I'll keep quiet before people start thinking I'm some kinda retro freak... ...Oh, alright, I admit it. And yes, Rockman on NES was the pinnacle of gaming for me lol.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 13th Oct 2012 21:02
@nonZero
I agree with you. For a while I only used the terminal on my laptop with absolutely no GUI environment. All of my web browsing was done in Lynx (a text mode web browser if anyone is curious), my music was played via terminal, etc. During this time I was working on a text mode utility anyway, so graphics weren't a concern at all.

Btw, Emacs for the win.

Clicking around to do things is pretty slow. For example, I have some videos on my desktop PC that I like to have streamed over to my laptop. I have a web server set up so that on my laptop I can just open VLC and start playing the videos. Once I've copied the link to a video from the web browser, I Alt + Tab over to VLC, hit Ctrl + V, Enter, F11, Ctrl + H. That really doesn't take long compared to navigating the menus. The video doesn't even begin playing by the time I've done that. (Though, that could partially be blamed on latency in the connection, but still!)

I have the belief that programming languages should make it easier to write whatever you intend to (specialized programming languages like DBP mean "games and game editors and other real-time graphical apps" to me) while reducing the amount of "silly" bugs you encounter. e.g., "Oh! My variable was called 'g_var' not 'g_Vari', oops!" I like the idea of a "strict" mode to reduce bugs like that for those that want a bit more structure but don't want to move their code over to C++.

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nonZero
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Posted: 14th Oct 2012 22:18
@Dar13: Had a look at Indigo. Looks quite decent but still bears a resemblance to the modern editors. Based on what I've seen though, I would probably favour it over others if ever forced to upgrade.

@Aaron:
Yay! I'm not the only one! That setup sounds as if it was pretty cool. Must have had a seriously low foot-print!

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Oct 2012 23:02
Oh yes. Everything except Emacs which was once dubbed "Eight megabytes and counting" lol! (Though I never actually checked how much memory was in use.) It was nice because I just switched between different terminals as necessary. Right now I would probably prefer a X11 tiled window setup that I could "Alt + Tab" between windows with. Alt + Arrow Keys to resize window in those dimensions and Alt + Shift + Arrow Keys to swap positions would be neat too.

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Dar13
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Posted: 14th Oct 2012 23:35
Quote: "Had a look at Indigo. Looks quite decent but still bears a resemblance to the modern editors. Based on what I've seen though, I would probably favour it over others if ever forced to upgrade."

If you really wanted to use an old Unix-style editor(vim/emacs) you might be able to create a make file to send a DBP project to the DBP compiler. For use on Windows, you can use Cygwin.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Oct 2012 00:38
Vim and Emacs are still updated and many people use them every day.

Also, I don't much care for Cygwin. I use Msys personally. And, Emacs has a Windows version with a GUI and everything.

DBP requires a "pre-compiler" though, which means you have to use an IDE currently, from my understanding.

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Dar13
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Posted: 15th Oct 2012 03:10 Edited at: 15th Oct 2012 03:12
Quote: "Vim and Emacs are still updated and many people use them every day."

I suppose 'old' was the wrong adjective to use.

Quote: "DBP requires a "pre-compiler" though, which means you have to use an IDE currently, from my understanding."

If it's a pre-processing step, then perhaps a quick Python or Perl script can take care of it. If it's an external program, that makes it even easier to take care of.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Oct 2012 19:27
I'm not sure, entirely, what all is pre-processed. From my understanding files need to be merged and certain statements need to be resolved. Also, the script would become out of date if DBP were to add new things to be pre-processed. One of the things pre-processing does take care of is "splitting lines."



Although if you knew everything that was pre-processed you could easily write such a script, I'm not sure it's documented anywhere. Of course, then again, that's where the community can help. IDE writers and the likes may have already whipped something together, or be able to simply offer advice.

Nonetheless, it could be easier.

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Stab in the Dark software
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 23:18
The DBPro compiler does not require the IDE to do any pre-compilation of the code.
If you look at the ".dbpro" file in notepad you need only specify the "fullsourcedump.dba" file.
You just assemble your ".dba" files into one file. You can either send just the ".dba" file to the compiler or
send the ".dbpro" file which specifies the file that is your full source dump file and specifies the extra settings for the compiler.

[img][/img]


WindowsXP SP3,Vista,Windows 7 SP1, DBpro v7.7RC7
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nonZero
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Posted: 21st Oct 2012 20:17
@Stab in the Dark:
Could you maybe clear this up for me. I have tried (both with the command prompt and by dragging and dropping) sending a .dba file to the compiler and it does nothing. I tried a .dbpro file too (after making sure to edit it correctly) and still get a failure. Then I "intercepted" the data sent to the compiler by the classic editor and it was literally the contents of my current project's dbpro file.

So what am I missing?

Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 26th Oct 2012 07:38
I can't recall if it's been mentioned in this thread, but I'd really like to see the ability to nest arrays in user defined types, such as the following;

If Mouse(1).Single.Click = 1
Mouse(1).Object.Pos.X(2) = Mouse(1).Object.Pos.X(1)
Mouse(1).Object.Pos.X(1) = Object Position X(1)
endif

etc...

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basjak
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Posted: 27th Oct 2012 05:07
until now I don't see any hint whether the guys want to make DB elite or not.

Duffer
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Posted: 27th Oct 2012 09:18 Edited at: 1st Nov 2012 00:53
@ LeeBamber & TGC,

Thought I'd update the list of the sorts of things people would expect in the DBE package:-

- Core and System Commands
- Multi Core
- Also compression and optimising code
- DirectX and OpenGL??? when compiled
- Compile to CDec etc dll plugins - usable by DBElite and DBPro? - maybe identifying a particular type of Procedure(s) as flagged to compile to dll? Creation of basic supporting ini/help files for dlls created from DB Elite?
- All the trimmings with things like Arrays and Types including the loading and saving of multi dimensional / multi type arrays and arrays within types, loading and saving of all array types, encryption
- V flexible Linked List commands, saving and loading thereof, encryption
- V flexible sorting commands for arrays, linked lists
- if not covered elsewhere, the IanM Matrix1 style plugin commands and functions
- Memory Bank / Memblock Commands
- Enhanced / extended Input commands covering all the latest, multi touch, gampads and joysticks, various sensors as well as all the usual on input, buffers, scancodes and keystates...
- Enhanced / extended Maths commands
- Enhanced / extended String commands including Field and Token commands, comprehensive (this is what I'd mean by enhanced/extended) including things like RTrim$, Insert$, Encrypt$
- Enhanced / extended File i/o etc commands including file encryption and zip/packing stuff
- Enhanced / extended CSV, Excel, Database, SQLLite, INI and XML commands, encryption of the same
- Enhanced / extended LUA commands - saving changes to data and tables back to fresh lua files, seamlessly in to and out of compressed/compiled lua files
- Enhanced / extended 2D commands (inc things like Fill, and ImageKit type commands)
- 2D particles
- Enhanced / extended font commands covering also shadow, underline,emboss, etc
- Blisteringly fast directx 2d, direct text, d3d commands, including batching commands for optimal speed, covering in AA 2d text, boxed and rounded box text, dots, lines, triangles, squares, in 3d all the primitives, 3dtext, again batch commands
- if not covered above all the A2D and D3D type commands, again with batch commands
- Full Windows GUI (everything in BlueGUI and BBBGui), Table and Dialog selections commands, including load, save, folder, font, colour, input, messages and options dialogues
- Comprehensive 'console' commands
- Enhanced / extended bitmap font commands
- Custom HiGraphics GUI commands - rather like TopGUI
- Direct 3D draw commands or equivalent (if OpenGL)
- Sounds and 3D Sound commands, Music commands - compatability with things like OGG etc
- DarkVoice and DarkEar commands
- Voice Sync / DarkVoice easque
- Fast Sprite and Animated Sprite commands, general and pixel collision / support for spriter style commands etc, batch commands
- 2D Physics
- 2D/3D AI Commands, batch commands
- Simplified but also then extended internet / multiplayer command set
- Multi Camera and Lighting Commands
- Shaders - and simplified commands for effective common style shaders inc water, sky, clouds, bloom, glow, spark, metal, glass, reflective water etc - envisaging easier commands to deploy bodies of realistic looking water on terrains etc.
- Advanced Terrain commands including real time modification, paint, spherical, streaming, application of shaders and physics etc
- Enhanced / extended texture / layers / materials commands /TextureMAX style commands too
- Enhanced / extended 3d Object commands, limb commands, 3dmaths
- Environmental / Sky (A DarkCLOUDS series of commands but integrated with the rest) / World type commands
- Enhanced 3d Object animation
- batch 3d commands etc with cloning etc
- 3d Physics commands, inc cloth, smoke, fluid, ragdoll etc etc
- Enhanced / fast 3d Object collision / limb collision and raytracing commands inc pick of object, limb, vertices
- Simplified / easy 3d object / limb/ poly modification/vert paint commands
- With 3d, billboards, occlusion, imposters, etc etc optimisations as standard
- I've probably missed loads!

Just another thought - some dedicated webspace - people can post in the best for a number of categories in terms of dll, ini and help - the best are then integrated in the pack? may assist in developing?

Again, as with PureBASIC, wouldn't it be fantastic if you could designate functions within DBE code and it could also turn those in to a dll plugin(s) with auto generated ini, dll, help files for editing....? THAT would save loads of time. It would also encourage a wealth of libraries of run-on useful commands plugins...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 28th Oct 2012 10:28
Awesome list Duffer!

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Jambo B
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Posted: 31st Oct 2012 00:42
I would love the option to *require* variables to be declared before they are used... for me, it'd save some head-scratching moments when a simple typo (which if I were using C++, say, would have been caught by the compiler) causes weird behaviour that sends me tracing back for 15 mins through my code.

Cheers

James
Duffer
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Posted: 1st Nov 2012 00:54 Edited at: 1st Nov 2012 00:57
@ Burning Feet Man,

Thanks, now added to it...

@ Jambo B,

Perhaps. But I think nice to also have the other types of variables too. I take your point, but good practice to set up descriptively eg. "as string" etc...

[edit]

Although, to be fair to TGC, if they got most of the way down that list of mine, I'd pay double...!

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Sasuke
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Posted: 5th Nov 2012 11:54 Edited at: 5th Nov 2012 11:55
What's peoples take on crowd funding? The advantage being Lee/TGC will know exactly if there's a market for DBPE if a target is reached.

The Star Citizen crowd funding structure comes to mind.
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 08:42
Hey Jambo B,

Using User Defined Types will reduce the problem of typo's, as the IDE will flag an error during compile, showing you the typo.

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Poshu
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 10:59
I would buy it... If it was to get a linux (debian at least) support, since I moved from Windows quite some time ago.
basjak
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 13:37
it will not. as it relies on dx. however, i think it's just an idea which I think they will not be busy with.

Cybermind
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 15:43
Sounds good, I'm in

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Mobiius
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 18:02
I think they've moved onto the next shiny object in this FPSC: Reloaded thing, rather than actually making DBE.

I'd prefer DBE to FPSC:R, but would love a bundle pack where you get both.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
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Sasuke
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 18:46
Quote: "I'd prefer DBE to FPSC:R, but would love a bundle pack where you get both."


But definitely an option to just buy DBE for those like me that don't want FPSC:R.
Olby
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 22:40 Edited at: 7th Nov 2012 22:42
Quote: "But definitely an option to just buy DBE for those like me
that don't want FPSC:R."


Like it or not, this is a way to support TGC and any future developments. If developed DBE will be an enhanced version of DBP so please pledge for brighter future with TGC as FPSCR is based on DBPro anyway.

basjak
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Posted: 7th Nov 2012 23:50
Am sure u will pledge for fpsc later next week but I wish the move was to go to DBE then I could ha be pledged more.

I still wish the pledge for fpsc goes successful.

Sasuke
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Posted: 8th Nov 2012 20:07 Edited at: 8th Nov 2012 20:10
Out of interest:

Quote: "207 backers
£11,918 pledged of £60,000 goal
22 days to go"


£60,000 is... well a lot. Is there even enough forum traffic for so many pledges. Unless the next few pledgers pledge £5K each, this is a pretty high target to beat. And considering a lot FPSC users are young, you've lost quite a lot of your pledgers.

Though I only know of FPSC on TGC and once on pcgamer about a Slender Recreation. So my logic might be slightly off.
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 9th Nov 2012 00:49
I backed FPSC:R in the hope to see some DB Elite movement. But now I think about it, I wouldn't mind making an FPS, as I have one particular idea I've always wanted to try.

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Sasuke
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Posted: 9th Nov 2012 13:25
I'm gonna back FPSC:R in 2 days when I get paid. Even though it's not for me, I want the rest of the community that want it to get it. The FPSC guys produce some amazing content. I do like browsing there boards from time to time.
JoeOh
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Posted: 11th Nov 2012 06:01
Lee, shut up and take my money!

But seriously, for $99 for all the new features and continued software support, count me in!

Home is where my souped-up computer is...
Darkhog
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Posted: 1st Dec 2012 20:32
While I wouldn't be probably able to pay $99 (or even €99) due to my bad financial condition, I'd certainly back it up if any preorder/kickstarter thing would pop up (up to $15 though).

Here are my few cents about what I'd like to see in it. Some are minor changes to the language, while others are quite extreme, but would make DBPro better in the long run.

1. Ability to declare FUNCTION anywhere in program
2. ByRef parameter declaration so function can return more than one parameter
3. GOTO/GOSUB accepting line numbers along labels. That may help out with quick debugging where you think specific line is causing trouble.

4. Support of the OpenGL rendering and usage of SDL as media backend.

Here, here, calm down - I'm not saying to drop DX altogether as it would be very bold move, to bold maybe for some people, but to offer alternative. Since OpenGL is on par with DX when it comes to rendering things, it'd be good if we support it as it may help adding further support for operating systems other than Windows or at least make DBE apps (Dar)Wine-compatible.
Paronamixxe
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2012 13:57
I would probably back this Sounds great, exactly what I've been wanting really, some newer DX and more commands would be nice!! Awesome, I think the price is ok, worth paying
MikeL737
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Posted: 10th Dec 2012 16:04
I would back this 100%! Count me in for sure.

Lee, thread is somewhat old and i was wondering if this is something your still considering? Hope so!

Mike L
Concept Games
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 12:29
Is TGC still considering this? I would gladly pay an arm and a leg for such an upgrade (metaphorically, of course.) Would love to hear some recent news on such an upgrade!

Hmm...
Quel
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 12:40
Gotta say i'm shocked to see your flagship software finally gets some kind of revisit...

i mean... Who from this forum came here back then for FPSC in the first place?

Or AGK... that's better than creating mediocre to bad FPS projects, but still, it's built on the gimmick of "mobile development WHU-HUUU!!!!"

You, TGC, have left real creativity and quality abandoned for quite some time now, so i would be happy if you gave us something to work with, in the case if our ideas may move beyond tetris clones, or 'boom, you are dead!' stuff with the graphics quality of the early 2000's.
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 01:37
@LeeBamber

if "Dark Basic Elite" had all the bell that windows can do now
and I can still use the plugins that I have pay and free

then I am all for it

I know some of the plugin's of either could stop working
but if the equivalent was there then it would be worth the price

i would rather see people use this instead of the other one's out
there which are far more complicated and more expensive
even to put a game using the other there are prices most people could never afford

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Sph!nx
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Posted: 18th Apr 2013 15:49 Edited at: 18th Apr 2013 15:49
I'm a DBP addict. If DB Elite would become a reality, I simply must buy it!

Regards Sph!nx
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