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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPS Creator Version 2

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spudnick
15
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Joined: 30th Nov 2010
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2012 18:35 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2012 18:55
Hi guys & girls, a long time not on here cus of reasons but am now back and feel good, so i shall give my support to the community again, i also feel that in this day and age this software should move forward and not stay in a time warp,
there are other game engines that are not progressing furthing with hardware advancements, but many are and infact people want to see all the glory of their hardware outcome, meaning the effects of graphics and new shaders, as it gives more realisem and depth.

i would gladly pay towards a newer version, and hence the ones that pay or contribute to the newer version should buy it at a discount, and so existing users would have to buy as a new product and no discount, as the new version would be new and not an upgrade, for that i support as if one is still using the old directX9 should pay for the newer version suporting DirectX 11 wich is a totally new rebuild and should be supported to the developer.

Anyway i have bought many types of software that are or was stuck in a version, but progressed into a newer concept of their product, meaning it has been rewriten and leased as a new product and not a upgrade and have bought it again cus it does what i need, so im in vavour to support a new product if it give me better development of my games.
Norion
15
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Joined: 14th Jun 2010
Location: The Netherlands.
Posted: 23rd Oct 2012 21:40
@ Spudnick

Welcome back


- Martin.

PC specs: CPU: Intel core i5-2400 3.1 Ghz 6Mb. GPU: Radeon HD 6850 2Gb. RAM: 24 Gb DDR 3. Case: CM Stormtrooper.
Red Eye
17
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Joined: 15th Oct 2008
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Posted: 24th Oct 2012 14:35 Edited at: 16th Oct 2013 02:22
@Clonkex: I am very interested in your FPSCPro Project, mind sharing your progress through email? Maybe we can help each other out.

EDIT: Haven't updated the 'LightStorm Engine'-thread in months, but alot has been going on. TEASE! Just hope I can compete with TGC and their new ideas.
Kuryle
13
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Joined: 4th Sep 2012
Location: darkness
Posted: 5th Nov 2012 00:59
The real problem is, what we want to have and get. Easy to use FPS Creator , or something like a development kit . I think better than FPSC is to create a DK, with simple scripts system. Maybe this DK will be using c++ language (best performance and capabilities) or delphi (easier to learn) ? Dark BASIC (Professional) is not bad at all, but for now FPSC is for indie developers with small budget, or for students where they start journey in the game creators world .
If the FPSC is to be forward-looking, FPS Creator must be written in the forward-looking language. Or we need to wait for better computers. Otherwise, we need to create very slow and nice looking games, or half nice or bad-looking games graphically (in an era of high-quality graphics) with good performance game engine. I know, that is possible to combine the best two options of them, but it requires many hours of work , if not years (independent and original idea)...
unfamillia
15
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Joined: 26th Jul 2010
Location: Preston, Lancashire
Posted: 11th Nov 2012 21:59
Its actually quite sad to see ALL of the people in this thread demanding things for the new version , otherwise, they won't back it.

Now the new version is being actioned and most of the requests from us have been listened to and the majority of the important features we all wanted are being included, yet, not everyone is yet backing it!

I love this community, but, come on guys! Dig deep and back it. We can't sit back and expect everyone else to throw their money at it, then just buy a copy when its finished!

It's actually better to pledge now as you are guaranteed a copy if/when it is released! for probably a lot cheaper than they will be selling it for! Why wait, get it now!

Anyway, i hope to see more people helping towards the target that everyone wants.

Unfamillia

Hamburger
16
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 11th Nov 2012 22:06
Quote: "Its actually quite sad to see ALL of the people in this thread demanding things for the new version , otherwise, they won't back it.

Now the new version is being actioned and most of the requests from us have been listened to and the majority of the important features we all wanted are being included, yet, not everyone is yet backing it!

I love this community, but, come on guys! Dig deep and back it. We can't sit back and expect everyone else to throw their money at it, then just buy a copy when its finished!
"



I really, REALLY agree with unfamilia here.

I also definitely hope that none of us are not pledging because they are not getting features they requested. If you are one of these people, go get off your ass and pledge.

Honestly, FPSC will be improved so much... why hold back because "you aren't getting what you want". You get what you get and you will be happy with it.

You would be ruining it for everyone else who wants to see it happen, and to just let everyone else throw their money at it and wait and see if it gets funded is low and lazy, and immature.

Grow up and pledge, and if your not pledging, promote. And like unfamilia said, you will probably get good payback in the end.

[/href]

BACK FPSC:R! http://kck.st/Tmi93T
BlackFox
FPSC Master
18
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Joined: 5th May 2008
Location: Knight to Queens Bishop 3
Posted: 11th Nov 2012 22:32 Edited at: 11th Nov 2012 23:00
Quote: "
I also definitely hope that none of us are not pledging because they are not getting features they requested. If you are one of these people, go get off your ass and pledge.

Honestly, FPSC will be improved so much... why hold back because "you aren't getting what you want". You get what you get and you will be happy with it.

You would be ruining it for everyone else who wants to see it happen, and to just let everyone else throw their money at it and wait and see if it gets funded is low and lazy, and immature.


Grow up and pledge, and if your not pledging, promote.
"


In another thread we have someone offering to help only if the OP of the thread makes a pledge. Here we have yourself stating how it ruins it for you and those like you that have pledged, or that those not doing so need to "grow up". What makes you feel some are not pledging because they are not getting the features they want? How will it ruin it for you and the others?

Let me be the first of the non-pledgers to openly say we are not pledging. Not because we are lazy, immature, or need to grow up. We have our reasons. Just like others that have not or will not be pledging. They have their reasons, and it should not have to cause a divided line in the community because of it.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Hamburger
16
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 11th Nov 2012 23:03
Okay your right, I kinda got a little carried away with what I said there... sorry...

I should have worded that better as well...

I had forgotten of those who have not pledged because of reasons other than that. In that case, I take back my statement. Not trying to offend anyone here.

[/href]

BACK FPSC:R! http://kck.st/Tmi93T
unfamillia
15
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Joined: 26th Jul 2010
Location: Preston, Lancashire
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 00:25
@Black Fox

I wasn't being slanderous to anyone not pledging. I am just saddened by all the comments in the numerous threads, stating that people will back it if it happens; then some of those have not pledged yet.

I understand that some people won't be backing this for various reasons - I completely understand and i am in no way trying to force people to pledge.

I, like many, am very excited to see FPSC-R come to fruition, but, only a few can't help it reach the massive total needed.

I guess what i am saying is:

If you are going to pledge, please do so sooner rather than later (if possible)
If you don't want to pledge as you have no interest in the new project, fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinions and preferences.

Unfamillia

BlackFox
FPSC Master
18
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Joined: 5th May 2008
Location: Knight to Queens Bishop 3
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 00:35 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 00:36
@ unfamillia,

My post was not directed to anything you said. I can understand your position (and Hamburger's) as far as how you view it. I was attempting to point out that by "drawing a line in the sand" (so-to-speak) between those that "have" and those that "have not" is not going to serve any purpose. There are a variety of reasons- some just may not be able to pledge in the time allotted; some may need parental permission and getting that can be a chore at times; some may have other obligations that are of higher importance. For the "non-pledgers", they may back off completely if they are in no position to help and they feel cornered by others to do so.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Stagg
13
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Joined: 11th Nov 2012
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 01:24
I sort of skimmed through this thread so I apologise in advance if this is in the wrong place or the points have been covered, but this seemed like the place for this.

I have just watched “FPS Creator Reloaded - Technology Demo”, here’s what I have to say, die hard FPSC fans may wish to look away now, but I hope the people behind the product would take note:

It looks exactly like the old version with slightly better shaders. The email read, "cool tech video". Where was the tech? Unless tech is now short for something other than technology I fail to see where the tech is. What this video actually shows is a someone walking around a badly rendered alley way with a pop culture reference thrown in, at no point was there any mention of what language the new version of FPSC will be built on, shader support, sound support, nothing. I can do what was done in that video with the version of FPSC I have now with some user created mods, which to my mind are probably the best aspect of the creator.

The only surprising thing in the video was that the game or demo or whatever you want to call it didn’t crash half way through.

Suffice to say I won’t be pledging anything until I see some actual improvement. For Christ’s sake there are plenty of user made weapons you could have picked that would have looked better than some shiny sausage fingers clasping a plastic gun.

That said; I did spend many hours in FPSC during my teen years which provided a fair amount of entertainment, and would really like to see a more solid creator being built. But that video totally failed to impress me.
rolfy
19
Years of Service
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2006
Location:
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 01:33
Those that can and want to will.
If the kickstarter project doesn't meet the goal I for one would be happy to pay TGC directly for an advance copy and they are sure to meet the costs involved with sales after its completed if they want to go down that road.
What I have noticed is how many users there are that never posted at all in the past are now surfacing to back this project and that's something I always suspected, that there are more active users than seen on the forums.

I myself have pledged and hope the goal is met but I wont be separating the haves and have nots in any way, its ok to push for more backers but bad mouthing users who dont or seeing them as in some way disloyal is really what's immature.

Hamburger
16
Years of Service
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 02:40
Guys I apologize for what I said, looking back at that post it was immature.

saying "get off your ass and pledge" was immature.

saying you would be "ruining it for everyone else" was immature too.

But really I was just talking about those who would not pledge for no reason other than the fact that fps creator reloaded was not up to snuff to them, because of how long it took to actually get a new version of fps creator and turn it down because it was only 95 percent of what they wanted...

I guess thats what I was trying to say...

Sorry guys.

[/href]

BACK FPSC:R! http://kck.st/Tmi93T
rolfy
19
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 03:11 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 03:44
Not going to judge you any more than I would those who dont pledge, I can understand your frustration but look at the bigger picture, many would wait till nearer the end of the month as thats when they got bills, rent, car payments you name it and maybe need to ensure their cards not going into the red as this incurs penalties.
Some may even feel this is going to be another x10 or that any new versions will still suffer the same problems as the old version and want to seefirst if any promises are lived up to, some may not even have a need for a new version and their needs are met with the version they use.

I also believe many pledge and dont automatically receive a badge for it, was a few days before I saw my own and only when someone else asked for it, many dont want or even care for a badge and its only another means of showing support.. This is all beside the point as its not compulsory to pledge anyhow.

Ever been on the receiving end of a hard sell salesman?, puts you right off, now imagine him demanding you take the offer or he'll tell everyone his family starved cos you didnt buy from him. This project needs support, no question of it, but its got to be a carrot without a stick.

I understand your enthusiasm, in fact I wish more were as enthusiastic but remember there could be any number of reasons why someone couldn't jump up and join in, not least of which is they simply cant afford it.

Those who demand certain features or they wont pledge are entitled to it, they may even come across as being petted lipped but they are the ones who will be paying full price if that's the only reason for not getting in on it now and its pretty much a minority, besides the features requested may be implemented before completion and its too early to make promises so they miss out on a good deal, just dont sweat it so much.

Olby
22
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 03:50
Quote: "Some may even feel this is going to be another x10 or that any new versions will still suffer the same problems as the old version"


It has been said numerous times that FPSCR will be backwards compatible with FPSC. And since it's built on top of classic FPSC most of issues are solved already, unless they bring in new ones.

rolfy
19
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 04:02 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 04:03
I completely agree and only giving examples of why some may regard a new version as not worth promoting.

TGC need to keep up the momentum they have now showing screenshots and video's of what they expect to implement in FPSCR, they also need to ensure that levels created in the current version can drop seamlessly without errors into the newer version otherwise all the hard work done on the current version is wasted and folks waiting for new version feel any work they do now is not viable a year from now.
Personally I feel they should have waited till after completion and release of V.1.20 before starting this but thats just me.

2Beastmode4u
15
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Joined: 14th Feb 2011
Location: Loading...
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 04:27
I don't know about you guys but I'm so sick and tired of having FPSC crash when I open another program as administrator. I don't know if this is just me but it really just bugs me.

Cheers.

God help me, Please.
rolfy
19
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2006
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 05:14 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 05:37
For me FPSC runs fine (I can easily run MAX,Photoshop,Firefox and FPSC all at the same time,it may slow things down if its a heavy workload but never crashes). It may be that 3d game creation is very pernickity and demanding so maybe thats part of the reason some systems set ups dont run smoothly for everyone.

If FPSCR is created then tested using 64bit OS it would probably run far better as opposed to a program originally designed only for 32bit.

BlackFox
FPSC Master
18
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Joined: 5th May 2008
Location: Knight to Queens Bishop 3
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 05:32 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 05:34
Quote: "It has been said numerous times that FPSCR will be backwards compatible with FPSC."


Actually, to quote Lee from here:

Quote: "
The good news is that RELOADED is entirely backwards compatible with FPSC V120 which means you can simply load your project into the new product and instantly get the benefit of faster build times, quicker game loading and if you so desired, additional game features which you can simply drop in.
"


The bad news is for those not using v1.20 will either have to remain with the version they have or start all over again with their developments using the minimum v1.20. Anything less will either not work or simply produce the same errors many have come to love and endure.

Quote: "I don't know about you guys but I'm so sick and tired of having FPSC crash when I open another program as administrator. I don't know if this is just me but it really just bugs me."


I noticed that too on our new Win 7 system. On Vista, we had the same issue due to UAC turned on. I checked with the Win 7 system and set ours to "Notify me only when programs try to make changes to my computer (do not dim my desktop)". The only issue with our FPSC is when I lock the system and return to the desktop with FPSC open, it has an error and closes. I assumed it may have something to do with the monitor dimming/focus procedure call.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Marc Steene
FPSC Master
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 27th Mar 2006
Location: Bahrain
Posted: 12th Nov 2012 10:00
Quote: "Suffice to say I won’t be pledging anything until I see some actual improvement."


But that's the thing, there won't be any improvement until the pledge amount is reached - they won't start dedicating any serious resources to this until they get the money.


Slenderman's Shadow - Sanatorium
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=199408&b=35
Olby
22
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Posted: 12th Nov 2012 14:00 Edited at: 12th Nov 2012 14:01
Quote: "The bad news is for those not using v1.20 will either have to remain with the version they have or start all over again with their developments using the minimum v1.20. Anything less will either not work or simply produce the same errors many have come to love and endure."


Well what do you expect to transfer your Unreal 1 games to Unreal 3 without minor modifications? It's pretty much the same. Good point is that all of your existing media will work just fine. Here's a quote from Lee (Kickstarter comments section):

Quote: "Thanks everyone for your support in this! Some answers. Legacy FPM files will load into Reloaded no problems, and backward compatibility is key for this project, and one of the reasons we are not writing it completely from scratch. It will be compatible with Windows 8 desktop mode and tested thoroughly on this platform. so your new gaming rigs will make Reloaded fly. I am determined to see our Kickstarter project succeed, and thinking of ways to post about it every day. If there is ONE feature you need before you will pledge, email me or post it here. My ears are WIDE open "


So as long as we can get most of our media into FPSCR seamlessly it's more than satisfactory (in terms of compatibility).

science boy
17
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Posted: 13th Nov 2012 13:45
im almost sure there will be slight modifications if you want to implement the new shaders, not 100% sure though, with x10 you use diffuse normal and specular maps at the moment in x9 version you use d,n,i? a form of spec i presume. anyway it is one of those things i have already got used to converting. so to get your media in the new reloaded surely be a joy to work on.

an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!
GreenDixy
17
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Joined: 24th Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Posted: 15th Nov 2012 03:18
I am not able to plege, Because i have 2 kids i make almost no money, And i got xmas coming up with both of my kids birthday almost right after that. For some people its hard, And If this was posted at a better time i would be able to help out. For some we just cant, As it is hard times and people need to see that. It took me 3 months to save up the 20$ just for the unity plugin so what does that tell you. I love fpsc i do and i hope to see it go further.

======================================
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
Burger
13
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Joined: 22nd Jun 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posted: 15th Nov 2012 04:23
Quote: "I don't know about you guys but I'm so sick and tired of having FPSC crash when I open another program as administrator. I don't know if this is just me but it really just bugs me."


I ran into this issue several times when I began using FPSC, but soon learnt to either close FPSC or open other things first. While its not too much of an issue it's not the best.

"I'm inspired by my own wise quotes, thank you." - Burger, 6/7/12
electric chihuahua
21
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Joined: 7th Apr 2005
Location:
Posted: 15th Nov 2012 21:09
In refererence to the Windows 7 comments, My new computer with Win 7 handles FPSC fine. I haven't had any glitches yet (crosses fingers).

I hope that everyone who is interested in the Reloaded project will help if possible. I know a lot of people are burdened with bills and other commitments and I sympathize. Don't feel pressured to pay for something you cannot afford.

I join the others in offering my pledge to TGC if Kickstarter fails. In fact, if it fails and they take direct donations, Paypal would no longer be an issue and may actually help them reach their true goal anyway.

As I suggested in the other thread, if you are interested in the project and have limited funds, consider this weekend forgoing a movie, pizza, or other treat and commit the amount to Kickstarter instead.
Clonkex
Forum Vice President
16
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 18th Nov 2012 09:08 Edited at: 18th Nov 2012 09:10
I really wish I could pledge, but I genuinely have no money whatsoever.

Either way I think TGC's goal of 60,000 pounds is totally ridiculous! I mean, that's $92,000!! That's simply waaaay to much for FPSCR. It might be ok if they were making FPSC2, but...$92,000!!! I'm not saying there's anything wrong with only "reloading" FPSC; on the contrary, it sounds great! But...

NINETY-TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! Friggin heck that's a lot of money!

Clonkex

Hamburger
16
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 18th Nov 2012 14:28
It may sound like a lot but sometimes that is just what it takes.

[/href]

BACK FPSC:R! http://kck.st/Tmi93T
Olby
22
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
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Posted: 18th Nov 2012 14:45 Edited at: 18th Nov 2012 14:48
@Clonkex : Don't know about you guys down under, but here in the UK it's pretty average sum for running a dev sutdio for six months with at least 2 developers + someone who manages. Remember that it probably includes packaging, DVD production, taxes as well as any other relevant business expenditures. I agree, it is a bit steep especially if we consider average age of FPSC user, but then again like Hamburger said, it takes what it takes.

Meows
14
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Joined: 12th Oct 2011
Location: Totally over the Rainbow
Posted: 21st Nov 2012 13:52
Quote: "I really wish I could pledge, but I genuinely have no money whatsoever.

Either way I think TGC's goal of 60,000 pounds is totally ridiculous! I mean, that's $92,000!! That's simply waaaay to much for FPSCR. It might be ok if they were making FPSC2, but...$92,000!!! I'm not saying there's anything wrong with only "reloading" FPSC; on the contrary, it sounds great! But...

NINETY-TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! Friggin heck that's a lot of money!

Clonkex"


Well Well some one just had to get the greed card in play.
I think and I am so sorry. (NOT) that once you graduate from pre school you will be able to read and write and see life without rose colored glasses.

FACTS::
Here is the breakdown of pricing for a LOW END High Quality gaming software program

Months
Involvement
Salary/yr
Salary/mo


Programmer 1
16
100%
$90,000
$7,500
$120,000

Programmer 2
16
100%
$70,000
$5,833
$93,333

Programmer 3
12
50%
$50,000
$4,167
$25,000

Programmer 4
5
100%
$50,000
$4,167
$20,833

Artist 1
5
100%
$50,000
$4,167
$20,833

Artist 2
4
75%
$30,000
$2,500
$7,500

Artist 3
3
75%
$45,000
$3,750
$8,438

Artist 4
3
50%
$40,000
$3,333
$5,000

Sound engineer
1
75%
$50,000
$4,167
$3,125

Game designer 1
4
100%
$50,000
$4,167
$16,667

Game designer 1
6
50%
$50,000
$4,167
$12,500

Level designer
9
100%
$35,000
$2,917
$26,250

Line Producer
16
50%
$85,000
$7,083
$56,667

Total personnel costs




$416,146

Overhead




20%

Profit




20%

Total




$582,604

Rounded - final bid

$580,000


So here you have it. And truth be known The Kickstarter *in my opinion* and i do not count. Should have been 3 times the 60 they set, and the time frame 6 months.

http://games.greggman.com/game/how_much_does_it_cost_to_make_a_game_/


would you happen to know how much it costs a company to produce an original video game – thank ya greggman!

It depends on the game. I can tell you that a certain team I worked on which had about 15 people for a year cost 2.5 million and that’s development costs only. That does not include advertising, duplication, distribution, returns etc. I can also tell you that the next title from that same team is going to cost 4 times that, twice as many people working twice as long. It all depends on the game.


For example Warcraft 2 (I think it was 2) cost only like $750K but Diablo cost like 3 mill and Diablo 2 cost like 6 or 9 mill. A game like Tetris could be done for like $20K or less, especially like "Next Tetris" for Playstation which if you take a look at as no art. It’s as though it was done completely by one programmer (plus some music)

Basically the more people it requires the more it costs. A game like Warcraft2 had fairly simple graphics so it probably only took 3 artists to make all the art. Diablo 2 on the other hand has not only much more detailed graphics, probably required 10 or more artists but it also has CG video sequences also requiring several artists. It took more than 3 years so lets say each artist made $40K (which may or may not be a low figure) Assume 16 artists, that’s 40K * 3years * 16, that’s almost 2 million right there and that’s NOT including overhead (ie, desk, computer, health ins, 401k, heat, electricity) That stuff can add up to 30% more and that’s only the artists. Add 5 to 10 programmers., music people, game designers, producers.

DOOM, remember DOOM, what’s it now 6 years old?. That cost probably like 200K and only took 3 people but it was designed to only take 3 people. There are only 10 monsters each with only about 10 frames of animation total if that. The levels are basically laid out in 2D which makes them much much much quicker to build than a Quake level which must be layed out in 3D. And there are only about 15 items. 7 weapons (or was it 5), health, armor, keys, doors and moving platforms. (vs say a character action game like Mario, Gex or Crash where there are hundreds of individually programmed things)

PS here is the final agreement on the project listed above as the Developers agreed to reduce fees for a 10% royality on all sales for 5 years,
payment commensurately.




Fee milestone
Minus
Royalty milestone

Signing $60,000
20%
$48,000

Tech spec
$40,000
20%
$32,000

Engine integration
$40,000
20%
$32,000

First playable
$60,000
20%
$48,000

One complete level
$60,000
20%
$48,000

Alpha
$60,000
20%
$48,000

Demo CD
$50,000
20%
$40,000

Beta
$60,000
20%
$48,000

Release
$60,000
20%
$48,000

European SKUs
$30,000
20%
$24,000

Japanese SKU
$30,000
20%
$24,000

OEM
$30,000
20%
$24,000

Total
$580,000
20%
$464,000




Table 3. Developers slash milestone payments by 20% in order to get a 10% royalty.

The attempted lesson is look and learn before spreading nasty things about people and .........

OK Flame on.
This really ticked me off as this project is a great one and will help many thousands of people learn and create.


Meows
14
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Joined: 12th Oct 2011
Location: Totally over the Rainbow
Posted: 21st Nov 2012 13:58
PS YES that $464,000 was paid for a GAME MAKING PROGRAM like FPSC


knxrb
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 14:23 Edited at: 21st Nov 2012 19:57
In my opinion £60,000 is quite a lot of money for an update to FPS Creator when you take into consideration the money they've made from selling FPS Creator.

On their IGN article Lee says that they've sold more than 30,000 copies of FPS Creator, at a price of around £25 to £31 that means they've gotten between £750,000 ($1,193,850) and £930,000 ($1,480,374) over the past six years from the sale of FPS Creator alone, excluding model packs sales.

If we then take into consideration the sales and discounts over the years and go with the lower £750,000 amount, you can then add sales of FPSC model packs, FPS Creator X10, App Game Kit, Dark Basic, Dark Basic Pro, Dark GDK, and more products.

I run my own business and so I understand that businesses also spend money and even after taking some money off for that, and then some more to cover taxes, I wouldn't have thought that their business would need a kickstarter for funds of this amount, or expect the community to pay again after having already purchased FPSC (and in most cases model packs as well).

If I'm wrong then please let me know, but that's my view from the information I have currently
xplosys
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 14:31
While $92,000.00 is certainly a bargain for what TGC intends to do, let's not forget where we are. I don't know the full extent of TGC's advertising campaign and how much was done outside this forum, but what do you expect from this forum? Someone made a comment in another reloaded thread that he was surprised by the lack of support from the community for this project. I think you might be surprised to know the average age of members, and those who are older, more experienced, and have money wanted this to go in - or start from - a different direction. Most of the push from TGC on this forum seemed to be aimed at the "I want this" crowd who had little concern for the inner workings of the engine, but rather wanted the promise of pretty pictures, shadows and sun beams. That was my impression, anyway.

The bottom line is, if you put all your pledge eggs in this basket, don't expect a lot of return. If you want bigger pocketbooks, you need to promise more in the way of a modern, stable engine, and I just haven't seen any evidence of that. Of course, rebuilding an engine that runs on old tech (DX9) doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm in anyway just to see the end results.

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

MrValentine
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 16:18
Meows

I agree

Also... Yes there are other costs associated with running a software business...

There is Taxes... There is Marketing costs... There is other expenses... Legal costs... Lee taking First Class while Rick takes Economy Class... Etc...

So I think many negative comments often come from none-business aware individuals... This is to be expected...

But I hope TGC bats the remainder costings for the Kickstarter... I want those model packs

Ldewitt
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 16:27 Edited at: 21st Nov 2012 18:44
Well, i have to agree with earlier statements, 60k, while alot, is NOTHING compared to other software, assuming this software, when and IF out will cost at most about 50£ if not less for those who didnt pldege, whereas if we take unity, costs 1500$ + eventual upgrades for the full version. Take 1500*X
X being the amount of devs using unity
Assuming the minimum is 500 people if not ALOT more
1500*500 = 750 000$
So if a base of a VERY underestimated number of people bought Unity, it would already be over ten times as much to work on Unity then on FPSCR!

Just some food for thought.

BlackFox
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 16:49
Quote: "Most of the push from TGC on this forum seemed to be aimed at the "I want this" crowd who had little concern for the inner workings of the engine, but rather wanted the promise of pretty pictures, shadows and sun beams. "


You forgot the particle-generated rainbows.

We understand the costs ourselves, but there just was nothing that appealed to us so far to convince us to pledge (or invest). The video of an alley and some character did little to demonstrate to us the investment would benefit us and our work. Plus the fact that twice there was mention that there was legacy support for older levels, and yet a thread points out that one needs to be at v1.20 in order to have the legacy support. Three pages with that feature info and only one says you need v1.20. Inconsistency does not do well.

If people are disappointed that this endeavor may not make the goal, then perhaps some thought should be given to the target audience. You want bigger backers? That would be us businesses. Convince us that this software will be able to do what it says it will. Don't forget some of us are not hobbyists and have pipeline contacts that also use the software. If all we have to work with is a feature page and one video, how are we to convince our pipeline it is a worthwhile investment? Brian summed it up best-

Quote: "The bottom line is, if you put all your pledge eggs in this basket, don't expect a lot of return. If you want bigger pocketbooks, you need to promise more in the way of a modern, stable engine, and I just haven't seen any evidence of that."



There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Meows
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 18:49
Agree Blackfox. Once again you hit the nail on the head.


uman
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 18:59
Seems to me FPSC is a little in between a rock and a hard place.

Apparently there is to be no FPSC Version 2 the subject of this thread.

There is perhaps the possibility of an FPSC R which may provide some level of additional improvements and or features beyond the scope of the current Version 1.20 which seems to be in the doldrums.

These improvements or updating may be envisaged to be suitable for some current users game making endeavours or even an additional number of new users and though some of these envisaged or listed enhancements would certainly be most welcome over the current product one would need to get to the end of the Kickstarter Stretch goals even to see third person inclusion. Even if this was attainable it may well fall far short of what is required to sustain FPSC into the future with the product not meeting the aspirations of indie game makers in the wider field outside of the current user base who may see the limited range of features restrictive in their consideration of using it for development of a wider range of games deliverable to a wider range of game players via multiple deployment methods and platforms.

Developing and maintaining any modern game making tool or engine is very expensive. One needs lots of users and lots of sales - ongoing. A continuous stream of funding so one needs to encourage users and keep them and keep them spending or find more users continually. Effectively you need a lot of supporters spending little or a fewer spending a lot depending upon the costs of your products. TGC products are not expensive so they need a lot of sales continuously. They need to eat. The more staff the more future development and improved product and the more food needed to feed them. Its endless.

Currently even considering FPSC R will move forward the funds available for development are likely to be very limited - everyone that contributes will get a copy of the new product and in some instances perhaps a lot of model packs which reduces the funds available in sales in the near future unless new users are found or new products sold as ad ons. User purchasers are the lifeblood of FPSC and any engine/product. If you dont have enough of them to sustain the product whether FPSC/FPSC R which it seems it may not then you have to take a long hard look at why not? If you cant reverse that then you dont have a viable commercial product thats the reality of business. If you cant sell enough of your product to make the profit needed to sustain the business and move it forward then you dont have a business. A product that makes a loss is unsustainable unless its a loss leader and the loss can be sustained elsewhere by the business.

Notwithstanding the history of FPSC, I am not sure that FPSC R as is currently envisaged from what is known publicly convinces enough potential backers or potential future users as to what will be its suitability for their possible use in what they may see as areas of their needs for making and deploying successfully games they may wish to make. It is of course is very difficult to convince people who may be sceptical (not those who are not) who may be needed as additional users from which to draw future support particularly in the short term.

I would agree that the level of actual promotional material given out does not do justice in my opinion to the need to convince more people to support FPSC R even if that was possible. The Alley Video shows some decent features but falls far short I would think of whats ideally needed to promote a product of this nature, understanding of course that there may be little more available to display at this stage which in and of itself is perhaps because of the hurried nature of the FPSC R Kickstarter campaign. But that does not change the fact that it is not convincing enough for many perhaps. The list of features if ever attained at this stage are not enough perhaps. Something more concrete might have been helpful in practical help in showing what may be potentially included.

Given that this is a shooter at the very least something shooting at the player might have been a good idea if there was any AI available at this time attached to any character at all rather than a statuesque slenderman.

There has been very little comment or feedback to the community here or at kickstarter from TGC to keep them informed of anything at all happening or to any development even if to say there is none, so not much additional to convince more to chip in with support. Giving model packs away is is one thing but there may be an unknown number of potential supporters of FPSC R that have an interest mainly or only in one thing and thats the engine and what it will provide to them as a game making tool itself. Clearly the more functionality you can show them of that the better given that of course the Kickstarter campaign started from a standstill for FPSC R with no prior development of it as far as I am aware.

I guess TGC have actually done little with it as V1.20 is getting in the way and thats bad timing itself for the Kickstarter campaign.

We all have different ideas, aspirations and opinions. I am sure that TGC will be doing the very best they can in the background to make sure that FPSC R is a success. I hope that TGC will keep users here and potential users in the wider indie game making community informed of FPSC R development and provide more feedback and interaction with them in its life cycle in an effort to generate continued and onging support, finacial and otherwise from a wider user base so that it can be funded ongoing as an aid to further enhancement following the close of the Kickstarter campaign.

Anyway I dont have a clue what I'm talking about as I have no idea what anyone else thinks or any influence on what they do so its make the best of what we have I guess as always

Hopefully FPSC R will get done and can be progressed over some time to meet the aspirations of TGC and all its supporters and users now and into the future. I do hope so.

Keep your chin up and happy game making.
Marc Steene
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 19:12 Edited at: 21st Nov 2012 19:16
Quote: "Well, i have to agree with earlier statements, 60k, while alot, is NOTHING compared to other software, assuming this software, when and IF out will cost at most about 50£ if not less for those who didnt pldege, whereas if we take unity, costs 1500$ + eventual upgrades for the full version. Take 1500*X
X being the amount of devs using unity
Assuming the minimum is 500 people if not ALOT more
1500*500 = 750 000$
So if a base of a VERY underestimated number of people bought Unity, it would already be over ten times as much to work on Unity then on FPSCR!"


Unity Indie is completely free, but lacks some of the more advanced features of the Pro version, such as dynamic shadows, the more advanced animation features etc. so it's a good way to find out if the engine is for you. The Pro version costs $1500 for the full version, and an extra $500 for a team license. Also, if a game dev studio has a team that large, they'd probably create their own in-house engine instead of Unity.


Slenderman's Shadow - Sanatorium
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=199408&b=35
Ldewitt
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Posted: 21st Nov 2012 21:12
Quote: "Quote: "Well, i have to agree with earlier statements, 60k, while alot, is NOTHING compared to other software, assuming this software, when and IF out will cost at most about 50£ if not less for those who didnt pldege, whereas if we take unity, costs 1500$ + eventual upgrades for the full version. Take 1500*X
X being the amount of devs using unity
Assuming the minimum is 500 people if not ALOT more
1500*500 = 750 000$
So if a base of a VERY underestimated number of people bought Unity, it would already be over ten times as much to work on Unity then on FPSCR!"

Unity Indie is completely free, but lacks some of the more advanced features of the Pro version, such as dynamic shadows, the more advanced animation features etc. so it's a good way to find out if the engine is for you. The Pro version costs $1500 for the full version, and an extra $500 for a team license. Also, if a game dev studio has a team that large, they'd probably create their own in-house engine instead of Unity.
"


Exactly
Now that is still above what fpsc costs, so my point is, even though fpsc certainly is awesome, and fpscr seems like it might resemble source engine, it still isnt going to (at least not in the near future) going to look like cod or bf, graphics-wise or other, so 60k - 150k is a REALLY good amount for an engine similiar to source in graphics.

ChrisCross
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Posted: 27th Nov 2012 22:32
I'm gonna pledge over 100 dollars, as it seems they need all the help they can get (and I can't ACTUALLY help, as I'm not TGC) and it's really just going to be a gift to them, because by the time it's out, I'll probably be 24. I hope it works out, and if it does, I'll use it like heck.

Art challenges technology, and technology inspires art. -John Lasseter
CyberGamer
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Posted: 28th Nov 2012 12:17
Is it part of this?
http://www.kickstarter.com/

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