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Geek Culture / Any Bitcoiners Here?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 01:46
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I've spent the last week reading and watching everything bitcoin related I can find and now I want to give it a try for myself.
Who uses bitcoin here? Could we do some minor transactions so I can see what happens?
Thanks.


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Dar13
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 14:40
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I mine bitcoin and have a little bit of bitcoins. Unfortunately I don't have all that much(less than 1), so if I did do a transaction I need it back lol.

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BatVink
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Posted: 24th Oct 2013 23:07
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BitCoins are now linked with various criminal activities, including the worst ransomware for a decade, Crypto Locker...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/18/cryptolocker_ransmware/

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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 04:39 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 04:40
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Also, cash and credit cards have been linked with various criminal activities.

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Seditious
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 06:42
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Quote: "BitCoins are now linked with various criminal activities, including the worst ransomware for a decade, Crypto Locker..."


Sounds like someone's bitter they didn't jump on the bandwagon early enough.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 08:31
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I hope bitcoin dies

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 08:57
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I have some bitcoins that I bought off a guy in my city. It's pretty neat, but I'm not sure what to do with them They nearly doubled in price in just a week but then went back to their original values.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 09:09 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 09:10
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Quote: " BitCoins are now linked with various criminal activities, including the worst ransomware for a decade, Crypto Locker..."

At least they don't leave traces of cocaine on bitcoin like they do with paper money.

Quote: "I hope bitcoin dies"

Why on Earth would you say that? It's the first ever truly global currency (you can do business with people in countries your bank wont transfer to, and donate to overseas charities), and it's decentralised so there are no banks to charge extortionate fees and print money when they feel like it. It's a currency that is fair for everyone, it's a great innovation.

I didn't expect hostility towards bitcoin here of all places.


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Quik
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 10:09
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Quote: "It's a currency that is fair for everyone, it's a great innovation."


Problem is that I trust currencies that come out of nowhere, just as much as I trust them banks.



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BatVink
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 10:30
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Quote: "Also, cash and credit cards have been linked with various criminal activities"


Quote: "Sounds like someone's bitter they didn't jump on the bandwagon early enough"


It's far more complex than that
If you pay the ransom by bitcoin, you are implicated in money laundering. You have committed a crime in order to resolve a criminal activity.

If you sell a bitcoin to someone who uses it to pay the ransom, then you could also be implicated in money laundering.

You risk having personal bank accounts frozen as a matter of course while any investigation is completed.

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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 14:04
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Bitcoin is seen as a threat by certain establishments.

Can you imagine if people started trading on mass outside of the banking system with a currency which is not the dollar?

For better or for worse this would be a major change and an upset to the established banking system.


If you are like me and see the current monetary system as a massive Ponzi scheme then you would welcome something like this. That said, mining for any currency seems like a massive waste simply because you can't trust anyone to not abuse a fiat money system, but that's just the way it is.

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Dar13
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 14:31
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Quote: "If you pay the ransom by bitcoin, you are implicated in money laundering. You have committed a crime in order to resolve a criminal activity."

As you are when you pay by cash. I fail to see where using bitcoin is inherently illegal as long as you use it intelligently, like you would any other currency.

Quote: "I hope bitcoin dies"

Hmm, may I ask why?

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Seditious
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 17:48
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Quote: "If you pay the ransom by bitcoin, you are implicated in money laundering."


Seems completely irrelevant since most of us won't be paying ransoms.

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Quik
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 17:55
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ahh, I wish I could earn real money by just leaving the computer on, what a wonderful and great world that'd be.



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Mobiius
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Posted: 25th Oct 2013 22:07 Edited at: 25th Oct 2013 22:11
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WTF is bitcoin?? (Goes off to Google it..)

[Edit] So Mario had it right back in the 80s, chasing after all those coins...


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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 06:02
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Quote: "It's a currency that is fair for everyone"


How is it fair? Those with the specialized hardware dedicated to generating bitcoins can make themselves a fortune. While an average PC user could spend a year making a single coin, which likely doesn't even out the cost of the extra power your system will be using that entire time.

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Quik
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 11:58
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not to mention virus spreaders will be able to mine a buttload x) (aka CS:GO I believe had somehting like that going)



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Matty H
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Posted: 26th Oct 2013 14:58
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@Phaelax

Bitcoin could be considered to be more fair if you consider that once in circulation the bitcoin is not owed back to anyone, there is no equivalent interest bearing debt that comes with the currency. They can circulate freely forever.

Of course, time and money is spent mining the bitcoin and miners are rewarded for that, I don't see how that is unfair.

Contrast that with the credit in your bank account, this is just an accounting entry of a loan contract which someone else entered into, it needs to be paid back with interest, and disappears when it is paid back. This effectively means that in a non growing economy more and more debt/money needs to be created to cover the burden of interest and to replace money which is being distinguished from the repayments of existing loans.

Like gold was in the past, bitcoin could be bought up by the banks and then lent out to people at interest with a fractional reserve system, effectively returning us to their credit system, but for now, bitcoin is an interest free and freely circulating currency, which I think is fairer.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Oct 2013 21:40 Edited at: 27th Oct 2013 21:43
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Quote: "How is it fair? Those with the specialized hardware dedicated to generating bitcoins can make themselves a fortune. While an average PC user could spend a year making a single coin, which likely doesn't even out the cost of the extra power your system will be using that entire time."

Bitcoin miners are also the ones verifying transactions, they are the analogue of a bank's mainframe but no data is stored in one centralised location, the entire system relies on the miners and they are rewarded with bitcoin for their services. The amount of bitcoin awarded halves every four years until their creation fizzles out at around 21 million bitcoins, there is not an infinite supply of money. Yes, those who adopted bitcoin early are already rich from it but that is the reward for helping to build the network and having the guts and foresight to invest in bitcoin when it was still just an idea.

Quote: "Like gold was in the past, bitcoin could be bought up by the banks and then lent out to people at interest with a fractional reserve system, effectively returning us to their credit system, but for now, bitcoin is an interest free and freely circulating currency, which I think is fairer."

True, but there are already other crypto-currencies available so if that happened people could switch to another one.


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Code Dragon
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Posted: 28th Oct 2013 04:24
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Quote: "So Mario had it right back in the 80s, chasing after all those coins..."

Has anyone heard of litecoin? At least bitcoin can't be inflated but as there's no physical form backing it I'd be afraid it could be usurped by something else.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Oct 2013 04:58 Edited at: 28th Oct 2013 05:00
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Considering the main goal of litecoin is done completely ineffectually I don't think it'll usurp bitcoin. As for a competitor rising up, you could say the same for the USD.

Since bitcoin is a representative currency, those issues do not affect it. One issue that affects a representative currency is that it could be devalued. For example, if the bitcoin protocol is discovered to have a flaw. It would be like a giant golden meteorite arriving on the planet and making gold worthless. It would ruin a whole lot of people who collect gold lol.

Also, we have fiat currencies for a few reasons, including that it helps stabilize the economy:

http://economics.about.com/cs/money/a/gold_standard.htm

That great for America, or Greece. But that sucks for the world. I'm not sure yet if bitcoin is a perfect global currency or not, but it sure is cool!

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 28th Oct 2013 06:52 Edited at: 28th Oct 2013 06:53
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Quote: "I'm not sure yet if bitcoin is a perfect global currency or not"
There is no such thing as a perfect global currency. It is crucial to have a variety of independent currencies in the world.

A standard currency under a single unified legal jurisdiction, i.e. a country currency is fine, but when the same currency is used by many different countries as their main currency, it is not ideal.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Oct 2013 13:00
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Quote: "A standard currency under a single unified legal jurisdiction, i.e. a country currency is fine, but when the same currency is used by many different countries as their main currency, it is not ideal."


Why?

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Quik
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Posted: 28th Oct 2013 17:21
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fairly sure Europe is doing fine with €Euro..

well, most of Europe that is.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 00:43
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I mean I'm no economist, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but from what I have heard, the EU would probably be doing better and more stable overall had they not have a single currency over all of them.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 01:57
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The way I see it, there are great benefits to a unified currency, it greatly simplifies international trade within the EU, it encourages mutual prosperity, as the value of the Euro is tied to everyone, but therein lies a problem because weak economies damage the entire region. Then people call for greater regulations and power for the EU so that they have the authority to intervene in these failing states, and before you know it we're living under one giant oppressive super-government.


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easter bunny
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 07:49
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IMHO, the problem with a 1 world currency is that it leads to a 1 world government. And the problem with that is that they aren't answerable to anyone.
This (IMHO again) is why communism doesn't work, because they aren't accountable, this is why democracy [in theory] works.
Regular communism doesn't work, but it's 'regulated' (they are answerable to other nations, sort of). Imagine if they weren't even accountable in that small way!



***Note: I realise that this post is political. Please remember this is only my opinion, disagree if you like, don't flame***
**If any mods think this post should be removed, please do**
*Wow, look how off-topic this has gotten!*


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Quik
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 11:12
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Quote: "IMHO, the problem with a 1 world currency is that it leads to a 1 world government"


ehhh... not necessarily no.



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Seditious
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 14:56
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Quote: "This (IMHO again) is why communism doesn't work, because they aren't accountable, "


Who is 'they'? A true communist society (ie. not China) has no government.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 17:24
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That's the beauty of bitcoin. It's not owned by anyone.

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Quik
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 17:56
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So I dont own my own bitcoins? >:



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BatVink
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Posted: 29th Oct 2013 18:43
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For anyone that got in early, it's probably more fun than watching shares on the stock exchange. But investing now is probably a very high risk.

The value has been known to change (up and down) by up to 1500% in a six month period.

In relation to it being linked to crime...the value went from $145 to $109 in just one day this month when a guy related to drug trafficking was arrested. The FBI own 1.5% of the worldwide available stock through seizing the assets of criminals.

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Dar13
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Posted: 30th Oct 2013 12:48
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Quote: " In relation to it being linked to crime...the value went from $145 to $109 in just one day this month when a guy related to drug trafficking was arrested. The FBI own 1.5% of the worldwide available stock through seizing the assets of criminals."

And after the drop to $109, it went right back up to $200 per bitcoin. Silk Road wasn't all that important to the bitcoin environment, though it sure made the FBI rich.

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RedFlames
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2013 02:20 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2013 02:22
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Speaking of rich, just saw this article:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/oct/29/bitcoin-forgotten-currency-norway-oslo-home
Quote: "Man buys $27 of bitcoin, forgets about them, finds they're now worth $886k
Bought in 2009, currency's rise in value saw small investment turn into enough to buy an apartment in a wealthy area of Oslo
[...]
"


That takes some luck to kinda stumble across bitcoin when they just got started, invest a small sum and then forget about it, until one day you're accidentally rich.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 07:06
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Assuming a bitcoin is worth $200 now, that means he purchased 4430 bitcoins for $27.

ASRock just released a motherboard designed towards bitcoin mining.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/asrock-bitcoing-mining-motherboards,25092.html

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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 14:50 Edited at: 20th Nov 2013 14:53
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They're worth over 500 dollars each right now. Dude would be a multimillionaire if he didn't sell em off. Also, you'd be way better off buying custom ASICs than motherboards and graphics cards.

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 15:05
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The concern is the fluctuation, yesterday they peaked at $833 and today they dropped to $470. Yesterday they lost 12% of their value in just one hour. Two hours later they gained it again and a whole lot more.

If you have money to play with and want some excitement then it's like packing 3 months of the stock exchange into 1 day. But if you're looking to make guaranteed money then it's not the best way to do it anymore.

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Dar13
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 17:39
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Ehh I'm just holding at the moment. Mining Litecoin because it's easier and the exchange rate isn't all that terrible. If Bitcoin becomes fully accepted, which if the Senate hearings are any indication it just might become accepted, the future value of a full bitcoin will be well above $2000 as there will be only 21 million of them compared to the billions or trillions of USD in circulation.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 18:59
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Quote: "The concern is the fluctuation, yesterday they peaked at $833 and today they dropped to $470. Yesterday they lost 12% of their value in just one hour. Two hours later they gained it again and a whole lot more."

It was becoming more stable (still rising but at a regular rate) but the recent media hype has sent the prices crazy. This is not good for the currency, stability is essential for it to be viable.


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Dar13
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 19:22
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Quote: " It was becoming more stable (still rising but at a regular rate) but the recent media hype has sent the prices crazy. This is not good for the currency, stability is essential for it to be viable."

It's not going to be as stable as the USD for a while yet. If it becomes more and more accepted then the base price will continue to rise. I read that the estimated value of a single full bitcoin will be approximately equal to anywheres between $5000 to $1 million USD as it's a much more limited currency and you can do transactions with as little as 10^-6 of a full bitcoin(unless transaction fees don't go down).

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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 22:46
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What exactly justifies the price of a bitcoin?

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 22:51
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Quote: "What exactly justifies the price of a bitcoin?"


The price that someone is willing to pay. Just like shares in Twitter, there is no value at the moment as the company has never made money, yet people paid big money and within a day made even bigger money.

Capitalism...I'll never understand it. When Adam Smith proposed the concept of the Invisible Hand, I'll bet he never envisaged it trading in Invisible Goods

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Matty H
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Posted: 20th Nov 2013 23:57
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What justifies the price of gold? It's almost exactly the same concept. It's limited and can't be forged, people accept it as payment partly because of this, so it has value.

I believe that the price of Bitcoin will skyrocket at some point. The dollar relies on acceptance around the world to hold its value and the more they print the less accepting people will be. I really can't see any way out of that and the dollar will not last forever imo.

If that happens then gold and bitcoin will go up in value, probably a lot.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 01:56 Edited at: 21st Nov 2013 02:01
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It makes me laugh when people call bitcoin a ponzi scheme. I see where they are coming from but it's the same with every currency, don't they see that? The founders have made a load of money off of something with no intrinsic value, so effectively yes, it's a ponzi scheme, but then so is every other currency ever created. But these people totally miss the point of a currency, it doesn't need an intrinsic value, in fact it's best if it has none at all.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 07:36
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Quote: "What justifies the price of gold? It's almost exactly the same concept. It's limited and can't be forged"

Gold is limited with a finite amount. Bitcoins are simply generated and created out of thin air. Governments control how much currency is printed. If people could print as much money as they wanted, costs of goods become inflated and the worth of a single dollar effectively goes down. What controls bitcoin?

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Dar13
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 07:46
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Quote: " Gold is limited with a finite amount. Bitcoins are simply generated and created out of thin air. Governments control how much currency is printed. If people could print as much money as they wanted, costs of goods become inflated and the worth of a single dollar effectively goes down. What controls bitcoin?"

Bitcoin is limited like gold is. There will only ever be 21 million full bitcoins in the wild and unknown thousands are lost due to early adopters losing passphrases or entire wallets due to time or neglect. This is mandated by the cryptographic algorithm used to generate bitcoins and the blockchain.

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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 09:52
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Quote: "Bitcoin is limited like gold is. There will only ever be 21 million full bitcoins in the wild"


For Bitcoin this is true. But then you also have Litecoin now and who knows how many more will spring up. When a currency is based on nothing other than time, you have a big problem. Although the mainstream currencies now have no basis, they were founded on Gold reserves. They were well established before being untethered. Now, when a government uses quantitative easing, it devalues the currency and it is apparent through the changes in the economic markets.

With Bitcoin, what you have is a nugget of purest Green. And anyone can make nuggets of purest Blue and Purple with enough marketing power.



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Matty H
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 11:41
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A currency based on time is no problem imo. People who mine gold need to put time into mining the gold, so it's the same principle, but not as dangerous.

Money can be anything, and has been throughout history. It just needs to be physically small, non forgeable and be accepted. Bitcoin has two of these and has the third more and more.

Before quantitative easing governments did not create money, the banks create credit, they are almost completely unrestrained to do this and it does devalue the currency. Every time someone take out a loan the money in your pocket is devalued, people who realise this are crying out for something like Bitcoin which can't be devalued in this way.

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Dar13
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 16:43
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Litecoin can only have 85 million in the wild. All the cryptocurrencies have similar limits or else they'd eventually be worthless because of the ability to essentially print money.

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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Nov 2013 17:26 Edited at: 21st Nov 2013 17:28
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But 85 million at what ultimate value? It's currently $8.36. By the time all Litecoins are in circulation they could be valued at $500, thats $42.5 billion created from nothing.

In theory this is all fine, you could argue that I could make physical SludgeCoin from the fallen leaves in my garden, and it would amount to the same thing.

The problem will come when government want their cut. If everyone starts buying goods and services using my SludgeCoin then the government don't get their bit every time it changes hands.

The first step in taxing my SludgeCoin transactions would be for a major government to state that it was a legitimate financial service. Wait...the US Senate already did with BitCoin! How uncanny! This is the first step in taking control back over a rogue currency that has made a legitimate move on your money markets and hence ability to tax anything that happens within your borders.

So why would the price soar after this news? The uninitiated will suddenly see an opportunity join the bandwagon of something new and trending..."I have BitCoin, friend!" So the savvy investor knows they can buy quick, sell in the not too distant future for a handsome profit and get out before the authorities kill the value by fully sanctioning it and bringing it in line with all other currencies.

If you can't stop the juggernaut, make sure you're at the wheel and not in it's path.

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