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Hi,

In most cases, Indie developers who want to make and sell games made in FPSC X10 can do it with the normal standard version. In more commercial situations you will need an extended license for each title you sell.

The extended license cost for FPS Creator X10 is as follows:

Net £424.68 € 594.89 $999.00
Vat £74.32 € 104.11 $0.00
Gross £499.00 € 699.00 $999.00

Here's the full EULA too:


FPS Creator X10 - Extended End User Licence Agreement

Please read before installing or otherwise using FPS Creator X10

By installing the software (the 'Software') on any computer, or otherwise using the Software, you agree that any use of the Software is subject to the terms of this End User Licence Agreement (this 'Agreement'). If you do not agree to these terms please do not install or otherwise use the Software and return the Software unused in its packaging, together with all of its documentation, to the place of purchase for a refund.

The copyright in the Software and its associated documentation is owned by The Game Creators Limited "the Owner". All Rights Reserved. By installing or otherwise using the Software, you (an individual or legal entity) agree with the Owner to be bound by the terms of this Agreement which will govern your use of the Software and your limited right to exploit a part of the Software.

1. Licence

1.1 You are permitted on a non exclusive basis to:

(a) load the Software into and use it on a single computer which is under your control;

(b) transfer the Software from one computer to another provided it is used on only one computer at any one time;

(c) use the Software on a computer network provided you have purchased such number of copies of the Software equal to the maximum number of copies of the Software in use on that network at any one time;

(d) create, in strict accordance with the associated documentation, unlimited Games (as defined below), and copy and issue copies of these Games to the public in object code format only, and subject always to the provisions of section 4 below.

(e) make a copy of the Software for back-up purposes only in support of the permitted use. The copies must reproduce and include the Owner's copyright notice; and

(f) subject to section 1.2(d) below, transfer the Software (complete with all its associated documentation) and the benefit of this Agreement to another person provided he has agreed to accept the terms of this Agreement and you contemporaneously transfer all copies of the Software you have made to that person or destroy all copies not transferred. If any transferee does not accept such terms then this Agreement shall automatically terminate. The transferor does not retain any rights under this Agreement in respect of the transferred Software.


1.2 You are not permitted:

(a) to load the Software on to a network server for the purposes of distribution to one or more other computer(s) on that network or to effect such distribution (such use requiring a separate licence);

(b) except as expressly permitted by this Agreement and save to the extent and in the circumstances expressly required to be permitted by law, to rent, lease, sub-license, loan, copy, modify, adapt, merge, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or create derivative works based on the whole or any part of the Software or its associated documentation or use, reproduce, exploit or deal in the Software or any part of it in any way;

(c) to copy or distribute to the public or otherwise exploit (on either a commercial or a non-commercial basis) any part of the Software other than within and as an integral part of an object code format Game;

(d) to sub-license any right granted to you in this Agreement unless expressly permitted to do so by the Owner in writing; or

(e) to transfer the Software or the benefit of this Agreement to any person if you have already incorporated any part of this Software into any object code Game.

1.3 To the extent that local law gives you the right to decompile the Software in order to obtain information necessary to render the Software interoperable with other computer programs, the Owner undertakes to make that information readily available to you. The Owner shall have the right to impose reasonable conditions such as a reasonable fee for doing so. In order to ensure that you receive the appropriate information, you must first give the Owner sufficient details of your objectives and the other software concerned. Requests for the appropriate information should be made to support@thegamecreators.com.

1.4 For the purposes of this Agreement the term 'Game' means an interactive entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user without further modification and which is made using the Software in accordance with its associated documentation. The term Game expressly excludes:

(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;

(b) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated;
in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user.

2. Term

This Agreement is effective until you terminate it by destroying the Software and its documentation together with all copies. It will also terminate if you fail to abide by its terms. Upon termination you agree to destroy all copies of the Software and its documentation including any Software stored on the hard disk of any computer under your control.

3. Ownership

You own only the media (or authorised replacement) on which the Software is recorded. You may retain that media on termination of this Agreement provided the Software has been erased. The Owner shall at all times retain ownership of the Software as recorded on the original DVD-ROM and all subsequent copies of the same regardless of form. Accordingly, the Owner continues to own copyright in the Software including any part of the Software (whether modified or not) which is comprised within an object code Game. This Agreement applies to the grant of the licence contained in this Agreement only and not to the contract of sale of the media.

4. Exploitation of Games

You shall ensure that, in respect of any Game which incorporates any part of the Software and which is created by you or with your permission:

(a) each such Game is accompanied by an end-user licence which repeats the terms set out in the first line of section 5.5 below and which also contains the following term:

'This product was made with, and incorporates part of, FPS Creator X10. All intellectual property rights including copyright in every part of FPS Creator X10 (whether modified or not) are owned by and reserved to The Game Creators Limited.'

(b) the terms on which any such Game is used or exploited by any person include terms binding on all persons using or exploiting the Software which confirm the Owner’s ownership of the Software and the restrictions on the use or exploitation thereof set out in this Agreement; and

(c) the packaging and media containing any such Game and any marketing or promotional text referring to such Game shall each include the following legend:

Made with FPS Creator X10. FPS Creator X10 is (c) The Game Creators Limited. All Rights Reserved. www.thegamecreators.com

and

(d) is not unlawful or actionable and does not infringe the rights of any person or breach any law or regulation.

5. Warranties

5.1 The Owner warrants that the media on which the Software is supplied will be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of 90 days after the date on which the media is first purchased ("the Warranty Period"). If a defect in the media shall occur during the Warranty Period it may be returned with proof of purchase to the Owner who will replace it free of charge.

5.2 The Owner warrants that during the Warranty Period the Software will perform substantially in accordance with its accompanying documentation (including the Readme file contained on this CD-ROM) which may include documentation posted on the Owner’s Internet site at www.thegamecreators.com (provided always that the Software is properly used on the computer and with the operating system for which it was designed) and that the documentation correctly describes the operation of the Software in all material respects. If the Owner is notified of material failures of the Software to comply with the above warranty during the Warranty Period it will use its reasonable endeavours to correct the Software or its documentation within a reasonable time so that it complies with the above warranty or (at its option) to procure or authorise a refund (against return of the Software and its documentation).

5.3 The above represent your sole remedies for any breach of the Owner's warranties, which are given only to the original registered user.

5.4 The express terms of this Agreement are in lieu of all warranties, conditions, undertakings, terms and obligations implied by statute, common law, trade usage, course of dealing or otherwise all of which are hereby excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law.

5.5 The Owner does not warrant that the Software will meet your requirements or will be suitable for creating commercial products or that the operation of the Software will be uninterrupted or error free or that defects in the Software will be corrected. You shall load and use the Software at your own risk and in no event will the Owner be liable to you for any loss or damage of any kind (except personal injury or death resulting from the Owner's negligence or loss or damage resulting from any fraudulent misrepresentation made by the Owner) including lost profits or other economic loss or any consequential loss arising from your use of or inability to use the Software or from errors or deficiencies in it whether caused by negligence or otherwise except as expressly provided herein. Save in respect of personal injury or death resulting from the Owner's negligence or loss or damage resulting from any fraudulent misrepresentation made by the Owner, in no event shall the Owner's liability exceed the amount paid by you for the Software.

6. Support

The Owner's technical support staff will endeavour to answer by email any queries in English the original registered user may have regarding the use of the Software or its application for a period of 60 days after the first support service email, which must be made within the Warranty Period. For technical support please visit the support pages at www.thegamecreators.com. The Owner shall use its reasonable endeavours to respond within seven working days of receipt of your email.

7. Law

7.1 This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with English law.

7.2 Each of the parties irrevocably submits for all purposes in connection with this Agreement to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of England.

8. Exclusion of third party rights

No term of this Agreement is enforceable pursuant to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 by any person who is not a party to it.

so we can't sell our games anymore?

oh wait re read it what classifies us as commercial

Rick,

Can you sum up what the differences are between someone using the standard version to sell their games...and someone who needs the commercial/extended version to sell their games? I know the Torque licensing allows you to buy the Indy license and sell your games up to $250,000, after which you must purchase the commercial license (which at that point should be a trivial matter to the developer...and more of a thankyou to the engine creators).

-Keith

"Note: You can directly sell games you make with this [standard] version, except if you sell via a 3rd party (publisher) or create a boxed product. In these instances you will require an extended commercial license."

From the pre-ordering page. Sounds good to me.

It all looks pretty standard for a software license. As for selling your games:

You can sell any games you make, as long as you include an "End User License" which repeats the terms set out in the first line of section 5.5 above and which also contains the following term:

'This product was made with, and incorporates part of, FPS Creator X10. All intellectual property rights including copyright in every part of FPS Creator X10 (whether modified or not) are owned by and reserved to The Game Creators Limited.'

If you decide to sell your game as a boxed product, or through a "publisher", you must purchase the "extended Commercial License".

Best.

Yea, I haven't met anyone yet who has made $1000.00 selling an FPSC game and other than some nicer graphics I expect the same of X-10. Don't get me wrong, I love the software and the company, but I am just being realistic. (maybe there has, if you have let me know)

Who knows someone with X-10 might create a real commercial game that goes on to glory, but honestly I have to look at the market.

How many people a year from now will have Vista
Of those how many will have a direct-x10 card

What games will be out in the market?
What will our game be missing that other commercial games have?


Its alot of fun to create our own little games, but without extensive work to the engines source and creating some really great custom media, shaders.. than there is no way for one of these games to compete.

Now don't start attacking me, we all know this is true. I like playing around with fpsc and creating levels and loading up maya and creating new models for my floors, but even with the advancements of "water" to x-10 I don't see how someone without a team is going to produce the next great thing, and if you have a team of really talented people then you are probably better off spending more money on a normal commercial engine and doing some programming.

This makes a fun hobby and its relaxing, but the crytech, halo, engine this is not.

While I know I never plan on worrying about selling game, I am not so sure I am even going to get x-10 now. My personal opinion is, that this is shady, be I right, wrong, or different. I will just stick with fpsc for something fun to do when I am bored.

I just wish Rick would have posted this information yesterday, instead of waiting until alot of people had preordered.

I am just glad I sent an email off to Rick yesterday telling him he needed to release this information about the license costs.

Peace and Love,
Jeremiah

To me, the verbiage is very standard and what you would expect from a normal agreement.

If you do make a commercial game with this, and decide to release it through a publishing company, I would think that the 1000.00 fee would be the least of your worries, but then perhaps it's just that I'm used to doing business in the real world.

Also, if you don't intend to distribute a game, you should have no issue with it. To call it shady seems a little irresponsible.

Best.

Your welcome to your opinion.

It isn't to bad no, but, I am going to back up what I see about the commercial viability of games created with x-10

If anyone on here can create a commercially viable game that exceeds $1000.00 in sales by August of 08 I will personally buy 20 copies of your game and give them away free on this site.

The only requirements

1) Must be legitimate sales to people who are not your friends or family

2) Must be created with X10 Standard (no modifications to the source of X10)

So surprise me and prove me wrong.

So if I buy 20 copies of a game I make (I am not the friends or family you specified) does that mean you match it and give it away for free?
If you want to c&c FPSC x10 do it elsewhere.This is not the place.This thread in particular is going to be havily moderated and moderation will be swift.
If you want to discuss pre-ordering then fine.Anything else needs to be posted elsewhere.
Please at least to wait to bash x10 until after you have a copy...

This makes no sense at all, and I don't think you understand the License. You can sell all the games you want at no fee. You only pay the fee if you use a publisher. Why would anyone, or how could anyone for that matter, get a publisher involved with a game that may not sell 1000.00? worth.

I have no idea what you're on about here.


EDIT. Sorry, all. Fred, delete at will.

Best.

Defy me, Defy yourselves. And Fred, you don't like yourself? I consider myself to be a good friend to me.

I am done. But yea, if anyone is interested in taking me up in this offer I will create a new thread.

I understand the license. I know you can sell your games, but for some reason putting them in a box and a cd and selling them on my site that way, costs $1000.00

Hey, I think you are all missing the fact that I do love the software, its this line here that bothers me -- It is to ambiguous

OK I hate to agree with Jeremiah here but this is ridiculous, I have to pay 1400 bucks to RUN X10 and so will some of my customers if I make a game I want to sell, next I pay 50 bucks for X10, then I have to pay Then if I want to box my game for sale at my local EB Games an make a sort of deal with them so they sell it for me and take a cut or maybe I sell it on an E-store made by one of the forum members now I have to pay another 1000 bucks! So total I have to pay around 2500 bucks to get, run and sell my X10 games. That is ridiculous, you are going to scare everyone with brains away. My 2 dollars,
*Slayer_2

Arent we aviable to sell our games anymore?

Barely, you need a license if you box it or sell it through an Internet site, thats the main way to sell your games!

Not good for my buisness

yes rick please make a list of what you are aloud to do with the standard version and with the extended version

unless you are the one who owns the site in which case it wouldn't be third party and so could sell it

mod edit

mod edit

This is just like the 3dgm license, worthless.

Please just sell this for $150 dollars and let our brains stop throbbing.

Yeah, we like you X10, but there no [mod edit] way that we're paying that much. That's why we love TGC: its "cheap easy gamemaking."

it not that much, if you made a good game that would be sold commercialy and published you would only need to sell 25 copys at £20 each to pay this off then on its all profit. and if the game isnt worth £20 then it probably isnt worth publishing or selling in mass quantity. even so at £10 its still only 50 copyes, no worries,

If you have a site (I do) and you sell the game through your site you don't have to pay the fee.Now before you all go out there fitting and moaning about the license ask yourself...
Is Epic or Bungie or any third party publisher really interested in my game?
My guess would be no.Publishers even pass up great games.The chance of someone who is not doing top notch work of getting any legitmate publisher to notice is not good.
Another good question is:
Am I going to sell my game in a box?
Chances are that no...you probably won't.
Did you ever think of this?Why not host your games that you sell and post a link to your site?You can do that.

As far as comparing this to the 3D Gamemaker license they are nothing alike.You cannot sell a game at all that you make with T3DGM unless you buy the license.You can make as many to give away as you want.
The extended license cost is intended for serious developers that have intentions on making a professional game.
A lot of us won't ever require it.

I am aware that there are those that have the talent and the skill to make the games required to get published but I bet I can count them on two hands.

*** ATTENTION ***

I have alread banned 2 people and slapped one.Let's keep it on topic and free of foul language.I don't like moderating people any more than they enjoy being moderated.Please let us all take steps to make sure I don't have to do any more.

I didn't read all of this, but basicly, if we sell our game by our self or publish it ourself (not 3rd party) an extended license isn't needed?

I think this could actualy hurt the copies of FPSC X10 sold...

I know I will never need it but I'm just saying, nobody else will either, there's just to slim of a chance of a serious developer willing to pay $1000 just to sell a game made in X10, because X10 is not a tool serious developers would use.

Yes, but I am thinking that many young hopeful developers will think that they can make a great game for 70 bucks and sell it, just to find out that they can't really sell many copies without a publisher and an extended license.

I understand them charging a lot of money, but 1000? How about rising the price of FPSC itself?

X10 may not be like the unreal engine (an engine a ton of game devs use), but maybe with some more flexibility in scriping and some terrain features might lead to people paying $1000 to sell games in boxes, in stores, etc.

I love x10 but this is kind of dumb. It seems as if TGC is just creating another product with the intentions of forcing people to pay more. This sounds ridiculous.

you have to understand that this is buisiness even if you don't like it to a serious developer this is small change but face we are not serious developers you might think you are but your not we are all indie developers here only one person i can re call actually sold a box FPSC game.

be glad you don't develop for the wii you have to be an approved developer thats means have lots of money and being famous(then they charge 2,000+ for the kit)

I wouldent mind them selling it for $500 if they dropped the license.

Banned another one...

FredP is on a roll tonight.

...even though he banned the guy I work for.

Who are these people that you are banning?

I think that this license cost is way too high. That is almost as much as the Unity engine, which is used in some commercial PC games I've heard of. FPSC's market is mainly for indie game developers who want an easy, simple way of creating and distributing a game, but that requires quite a lot of money just to be able to sell it. I'm rambling...must get sleep...



Wait till the next Butter fingers comes along...then everybody will be fine...

Jeremiah, Slayer222, and somebody else.

You wouldn't have to ban people if you would just be supportive and listen to what they have to say.

Instead of saying what amounts to "Shut up, you don't matter" How about when people ask questions regarding needing more information; you be a good moderator and say that you will contact rick and try to get more information.

Instead of posting message such as
"Please at least to wait to bash x10 until after you have a copy..."
"Banned another one..."
"I have alread banned 2 people and slapped one."

Perhaps you could try to get along and play the adult role instead of just banishing desenting voices.

There have been alot of great points made, and I have noticed that Rick nor the rest of TGC has been in to set the record straight, you appear to be left to the role that leave you in a villianous situation.

I know you are to scared to speak out, afraid that you will lose your position of authority, but a good leader knows when to listen to the troops and when to listen to command.

What time do you really think this is?

You can ban me, but I have to ask: Where will it stop? And does this make you proud of yourself?

Alot of people feel very passionate about this, and I can't really blame them.

I can see it both ways really. It almost seems like a punishment for those who do well, But If you are doing that well then it's possible that you could be able to work that into your budget. As for Quality compared to commercial games out there now, Well this may be a poor example , may not, but I played a bit of Clive Barker's Jericho and the quality (not mechanics) was on par with it. That is a game sold on the latest console systems and PC as well. X10 has potential for current commercial quality. As Fred pointed out not everyone is is going to have third party release. But if you do an extended liscense fee isn't really too out of the question. It could however drop in price a bit. $500.00 seems a bit more reasonable, otherwise it is kinda punishing the ones who do well. I say cross that bridge when you come to it rather than worrying about something that may or may not happen. It may accually not be that big of a problem if things are going that well.

I have made in bold the point in question here.
Is this saying, Game Creators Limited own your IP (intellectual copyright) of your game?

Id like an official answer from Game Creators Limited on this, not speculation from mods or fanboys.

Please list official definition of a commercial situation.
Again I don't want speculation or guesses from those that are not warranted or authorized to do so, I want an official answer making it clear.

Right Ive found official description on the page for proccessing the order.

Note: You can directly sell games you make with this version, except if you sell via a 3rd party (publisher) or create a boxed product. In these instances you will require an extended commercial license.

I thought the deal was that if we sold less than 10,000 copies we were considered "indie" and didn't need a special license.

What happened to that scenerio ?? (I think that idea was better, even if it were reduced to less copies)

Lets' face it though guys, if you are doing a boxed version through a third party vendor, then it is likely that your deal is worth way more than $1000 bucks.

You know, when I told my friend that FPSC X10 cost less than $50 with the discount, she said "how are they making any money off that?"

Now, we know the answer to her question.
Be glad that it is like this.
Otherwise, the people who want to use it for fun would have to pay through the nose if they raise the base price.

I think this is somewhat fair if you think about it, but I did like the earlier idea of the 10,000 copies thing.
Of course, we all would like it to cost less, but TGC is a business, and most businesses are in business to make money.
However, if this applies to any commercial release regarless of the copies sold then I have to rethink my release.
Although, when you consider than most commercial engines cost between $250,000 to $500,000 or more, FPSC X10's $1000 is a bargain.
Lets face it. Your ESRB rating will cost you nearly as much, and your system to run FPSC X10 probably cost you more.
And don't forget, X10 is the latest technology! Not to mention the hard work that Lee and the guys put into this thing.
I do hope that TGC will reconsider the copy limit though, since most of us are indie developers who work with limited budgets.
That way we have a chance to earn the money off a small release to go big time, and everyone gets paid off the profits.
I really think that this license is going to restrict FPSC X10 from getting the exposure it deserves if it applies to all commercial releases.

Maybe more than two classifications could suit every class of developer, ie...

Hobby = Standard License (cost of program for non-commercial releases)
Indie = Less than X copies distributed ( Less than $1000 )
Commercial = More than X copies distributed ($1000 or more )

That way we can grow with the program as our skills with FPSC X10 (and our budgets) get better.
Just a thought.

Does this mean that company who made those great shaders for FPSC were to create those same shaders for x10 would be forced to hand those shaders over to TGC? (they had a really great looking game with cartoonish type characters)

You see this is what I mean by speculation, I want to see official items, gets rid of the I thought this or that.




your 20 USD out, $69.99, the prices listed are with the discount.
your also better off buying it in USD as well.
converted into USD
paying in GBP, USD would = 104 USD
paying in EUR, USD would = 87 USD



No they dont cost that, go here
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

from the order page.
Note: You can directly sell games you make with this version, except if you sell via a 3rd party (publisher) or create a boxed product. In these instances you will require an extended commercial license.

So this will rule out any portals as well, any third party pub in any way or any affiliate deal or party of any sort, just so people know and it is clear.

force master,jeremiah,annoying little...whatever you choose to call yourself...quit being a giblet.I know about your dual account and it has been banned as well.
Alex 1337,
Say goodbye.I am sick of moderating you.
The only thing I asked is that you please keep it on topic and keep the bashing out of this thread.
And Alex...
Stop sending me spam.

Just off the top of my head.
get the unity engine, it will port to wii, or is doing soon, its the cheapest engine ive see for wii dev.
you can do the C4 engine for 200 usd, that will do ps3 but you need a dev kit to compile it.
Blade3d can do xbox360

what they need to do is drop this here.



Its too vaugue, and who wants that on everything you ever produce of your game, just makes the product look bad, your trying to market a game and you have a big branding over every thing, plus will there really be space for this on all the game adds, can you imagine what a publisher will say to this, you would have to put it in the contract to enforce it, so you need lawyers to draw that into the contract, thats not free, then what if the publisher ignores it or forgets or there is an oversight, TGC sue you, then you sue the publisher, again not free using lawyers, that will go down well with your publisher relations, lots of agro all around, they should just either bin that, or have a pro license, no mention of TGC adverts and you pay a pro license, and thats that.
If TGC did sue over the advert they want on the product it would make very bad publicity for them as well, its not worth putting this in, id scrap that if I was them, just looks too cheap and will cause big problems down the line.



Its not just retail publishing, its all third party, so any other third party online distribution falls within this, so any web sites that sell your game count as third party, basically, if you are selling a game you use third parties, you will have a hard time selling from sales just from your site, you need portals, affiliates or retail, any indie will tell you that, so if you plan on selling your game in any numbers, you will need the extended license. Only in retail, boxed sales will you see money up front, otherwise if you are seriously thinking of selling this, then you need third parties and the extended license.

What is the issue with including the following:



You do believe in including credits in your games don't you?TGC is just telling you to do something you should be doing anyways?Giving credit where it is due should be automatic whenever possible.

I agree with fallen one. If you are paying 1000 dollars for the license, I don't know why we need a copyright on it for FPS Creator X10.

This is also saying that instead of a simple copyright for our game, we also need to include this which is too big (if readable) to put on promotional pictures, and ads.

I think it would be fine if they made us do this without the license, but with the license?

I am now questioning if FPSC X10 is really worth it.

freds right you had to do that last time if you forget you had to include somewhere something along the line sof this was created using Fps creator or something like that


yes but to be allowed you have to be Finacial stable and a well establised developer thats what they even say on their site that means rich and having a company as well known as Retro Studios(makers of Metroid Prime)its makes it impossible for indie developers to get into the console scene(well that is if your bent on makeing a Wii game)

ha now i see why he was defending his other account for

Owie! I hate slaps (if it wuz even me)
Anyways, could you (RickV) change the liscense thingy to make it like $300 dollars for a commercial game? I'm lazy and I don't have a job yet.