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FPS Creator X10 / Extended License cost

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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 19:49
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Does burning the game to a CD and then sell it count as a boxed version?

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Snipesoul
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 20:02
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If it is sold through a publisher, then maybe you can consider it some kind of "boxed" version. Would you burn the game to a CD and let official stores sell it?

Upcoming computer: Vista Home Premium, AMD Athlon 64 x2 Dual-Core 5600+ 2.8ghz, Nvidia Geforce 8800 GTS 640 MB, and 2 gigs of RAM all at $1600... WOW
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fallen one
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 21:33 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2007 21:44
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Quote: "Does burning the game to a CD and then sell it count as a boxed version?"


They mean a hard copy, ie pysical medium, its just put in a vaugue way.


Ill cut through it for you, you want to sell it, get a license, Im sure this will be argued with again and again, Im telling you, get a license, you will not sell numbers on your own, you will not market it or have the distribution channel to do so by yourself.

Those who think otherwise, go leave these forums, stop reading posts by teenagers who got fpsc for their birthday and google indie developer, then go read indie game forums in the business section, If you want to sell by yourself you will need some serious marketing (thats not free or easy, you think you are going to do that for less than 1000 usd like a TGC DX10 license would cost and save money ). You are better off using third party services to sell your game if you seriously want to sell any copies at all.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Roger Wilco
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 01:00
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Seriously, think of how little you actually pay for all the stuff you get, especially in X10.

Now, does the extended license still sound expensive?

Well, let me put it this way. You save hours and hours of coding an engine from the base and coding tools to develop the game aspects with, such as the level editor. You don't have to go through coding the shaders, you can even save all time on creating custom content, because you've already got a bunch of neat stuff to build a complete game with. And you can sell it freely outside of third party publishers. Think of all of your friends that you could get to pay a few bucks for your neat X10 game. If you develop a somewhat serious project, you might earn in all the money you paid for FPSC.
And if you take time to develop a project big and impressive enough to have a third party company want to sell it, money probably won't be an issue to you. Maybe you could even milk a sponsor out for paying the extended license, it doesn't matter.

1000 bucks is NOT much for a game that gets published like that. It's a fart in the wind, and it'll be well worth paying if you've got a game good enough to end up on the shelves.

There, my two öres.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 02:05 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 02:49
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Quote: "You see this is what I mean by speculation, I want to see official items, gets rid of the I thought this or that."

I wasn't speculating. That is what they said.
I didn't mean the "I thought" to sound like speculation. It was meant as "if memory serves", not "I am guessing".
So, let me reword it for you fallen one.

YOU STATED EARLIER IN ANOTHER THREAD the deal was that if we sold less than 10,000 copies we were considered "indie" and didn't need a special license.

Is that better?

Quote: "your 20 USD out, $69.99, the prices listed are with the discount.
your also better off buying it in USD as well.
converted into USD
paying in GBP, USD would = 104 USD
paying in EUR, USD would = 87 USD"

WRONG
The $69.99 was in USD before the discount.
After the discount it was $48.99 USD, which is less than $50.
I should know what it was being that I have ordered it already.
Talk about speculation. Have you ordered yet, or is this your guess?


Quote: "No they dont cost that, go here "

YES, they do.
Try to get the CryEngine 2 for less than $250,000 US. Good Luck!
Maybe you know someone in the company that can get it for less but that is the price I have been told.
The Unreal Engine 3 costs $500,000 and up for a commercial license, not to mention the additional Royalties.
They do cost this much if you get quotes from the engine's creators, not some third party website that could have written by anyone.

Here is a quote from the Unreal Website
Quote: "Royalty-Bearing License - For retail console & PC products

A non-refundable, non-recoupable license fee is due on execution of the agreement. The cost is US $350,000 for one of the available Unreal Engine 2 platforms, plus US $50,000 for each additional platform. A royalty of 3% is due on all revenue from the game, calculated on the wholesale price of the product minus (for console SKUs) console manufacturer fees. In the case of massive-multiplayer online games, the royalty is also due on the additional forms of revenue including subscriptions and advertisements. "


That is $350,000 and more for the Unreal 2 engine.
If you still don't believe me then email them, and ask.


Quote: "so if you plan on selling your game in any numbers, you will need the extended license."

You could sell an unlimited number as downloads off your own website with the standard license the way I am reading it.

Quote: "gets rid of the I thought this or that"

Okay, lets all stop thinking, then maybe we can better relate to your points of view fallen one.
                       

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Trinity Pictures
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 04:08
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.........headache
jk

Artist/Modellor of Encrypto Studios
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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 05:10 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 05:10
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Quote: "The Unreal Engine 3 costs $500,000 and up for a commercial license, not to mention the additional Royalties. "


They dont give prices for UE3
you pass this first

Audience

We generally only do business with groups that have a registered corporation and physical business address. If you're not an industry heavyweight with a commercial development history, we will additionally ask you some questions prior to licensee discussions:

http://www.unrealtechnology.com/html/licensing/terms.shtml
Where is your business located?
What products has your company shipped in the past?
For startups, who comprises the core of your development team, and what products have they shipped in the past?
Do you have a publisher lined up for your project?
How is your project funded?

Blow me down, and I thought it cost 1.25 million USD when I was told personally by Mark Rein of Epic Games. I must of been dreaming when I lost a publishing deal for the dev fee and the UE3 License fee becuase posters at a 40 quid engine tell me so on the forums and they know much better than I would.

Quit trying to educucate me on what engine prices cost or are worth when you dont have any idea or any experiance in these matters.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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jonathan samson
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 05:24
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i don't mind paying $1000 for the license i don't see any problem in that fpsc x10 is new tecnology that is the the first 3d game maker for windows vista [sorry if im repeting the statement on the site] but let me say this have you seen a better 3D fps engine cheaper then this for vista?

j.samson
My beauty it is my sin.
Work in Progress...
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 05:31 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 05:53
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@Fallen One
Dude, you are funny.

One minute you say they don't cost that much, and now you say it costs more?

It is obvious that you just want to argue.

Quote: "Quit trying to educucate me on what engine prices cost or are worth when you dont have any idea or any experiance in these matters."

I'm not trying to educate you on anything.
I am simply saying what I was told, and that is those engines cost more than $250,000.
How the heck do you know what experience I have? You don't know!
Also I said $500,000 and up which is what 1.2 million is genius.
Or maybe 1.2m is less than 500k in your bizzaro world.

Quote: "Blow me down, and I thought it cost 1.25 million USD when I was told personally by Mark Rein of Epic Games. I must of been dreaming when I lost a publishing deal for the dev fee and the UE3 License fee becuase posters at a 40 quid engine tell me so on the forums and they know much better than I would."

Now we are supposed to believe that you are putting together deals involving those engines, yet you are crying about $1,000.
Let me say it again...Dude, you are funny.

Quote: "They dont give prices for UE3"

Didn't you say he personally told you 1.25 mil?
(Open mouth, insert foot)

Thanks for confirming my point though about the extremely high costs of other engines!!!


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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 06:22 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 06:25
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Quote: "yet you are crying about $1,000."

I've never brought up I think 500 pounds is too much for me, where the hell do you get that from, in fact if you catch my posts you will see I have posted to make a pro license to get rid of the adverts TGC want on all games made with it, I actually suggest it have another tier on top, so that's dead wrong there period, the 500 pounds entry level is also good as it stops the market being flooded with junk, so its a nice filter for that as well.

Comparing fpsc dx10 to top of the line engines is plain stupid, look it costs 50 pounds, you use it for fun as a hobby, if you want to compare it to these engines that's your problem, in fact if you want to do that go here.
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=271
There's a link for fpsc on Dev Master, which is the place for game engines, fpsc gets a bad review so perhaps you would like to take your argument to them and put them all straight.

Ill keep using fpsc for what it is, a fun engine for 50 pounds one can have some enertainment out of, perhaps something more if you have some skill and savy, but don't compare it to top of the line engines.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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TheDude
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 08:27 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 08:31
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Hey hey, fella's, got some alternatives here for those who do not have a site, excerpted from my TGC notepad:

Quote: "Online Game Publishers

DemoNews.com
DemoNews.com lists both freeware and shareware games. No registering, waiting in line or popups. Programs tested for spyware, viruses and unwanted 3rd party applications before posting.
Estimated Daily Visits: 6,000
Hosts files
http://www.demonews.com/

Mad Monkey
Massive selection of games, which are easily browsable. Accepts any game.
Estimated Daily Visits: Unknown, but I guess 200-500
Doesn't hosts files
http://www.madmonkey.net/

Game Xtazy
Nice professional design. This site provides reviews, ratings and number of downloads of your game. They list thousands of games. It looks like they accept almost any game. The site is actually all done in static HTML, which means they must have an impressive automated filing system, or possibly they've reprogrammed their server to think HTML pages are dynamic. It's also run by Alawar Entertainment, which is a large shareware game publisher based in Russia (and also means they list their own games first with 5 star ratings.)
Estimated Daily Visits: Unknown, but I guess 5,000 - 10,000
Doesn't hosts files

http://www.gamextazy.com/authorarea

-FROM: Candles Games

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED:

http://www.gametrove.net/ "


Online site to upload your games, and I believe you can sell as well! ( FYI, some sites may not be around, notes are a little old, sry. )

@Conjured Entertainment

Quote: "Dude, you are funny."


Thank you, I try,

Retired with FPSC, moved on to beyondvirtual.com, but still willing to help once in a while.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 08:02 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 08:21
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Quote: "I've never brought up I think 500 pounds is too much for me, where the hell do you get that from, in fact if you catch my posts you will see I have posted to make a pro license to get rid of the adverts TGC want on all games made with it"

Well look at the title of this thread...
Extended License cost
The topic of this thread is the cost of the extended license.

So, you are saying that you never mentioned anything about the cost?

All you have done is suggest other engines that cost less, and complain about having to give TGC their credits.
So, if you are not concerned with the cost, then you must be mentioning the other engines just to undermind the promotion of FPSC X10.
Or is the issue of giving them [TGC] the credit they deserve your only hangup?

I just do not see how anything you have said can be taken on a positive note.
If it is intended to be all negative, then its little more than bashing the product which no one here needs.

Why don't you go to your DEVMASTER.NET and bash it, since you insist that a four year old website is the authority on game development?

Quote: "Comparing fpsc dx10 to top of the line engines is plain stupid, look it costs 50 pounds, you use it for fun as a hobby, if you want to compare it to these engines that's your problem, in fact if you want to do that go here.
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=271
There's a link for fpsc on Dev Master, which is the place for game engines, fpsc gets a bad review so perhaps you would like to take your argument to them and put them all straight."

I wasn't comparing the engines.
I was comparing the cost of their licenses.
If your so called gaming experts gave this engine bad reviews, then why are you here using it?
You contradict yourself everytime you make a post.
I think anyone reading these posts knows what "is plain stupid", other than our bickering.
I'm done.

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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 09:13
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http://www.gametrove.net/
http://gamextazy.com
Thats a games portal, thats a third party, selling fpsc dx10 game there will need the extended license.

http://www.demonews.com
Will be an affiliate, it will recieve money percentage on each game that is downloaded and leads to a sale.
So third party again.

Like I say you need portals and affiliates to make sales, so you need an extended license.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 09:50 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 10:08
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Quote: "Like I say you need portals and affiliates to make sales"

And/Or just good advertising.
Downloads on your own website could pay off big if you reinvest the intial profits into advertising.
That is really all that those third party distributers are doing, giving your game more exposure.

I see the extended license as just that, an extension.
Starting off with the standard license should meet the needs of most of the users here.

I am convinced a person could sell enough games off their own website as downloads to cover the cost of the extended license.
What are we talking about here, $1000, thats only 50 sales at $20 each.
And if you plan on selling an X10 title for less than $20, then you aren't trying to make any money anyway.

It's all a matter of crawling before you walk, or trying to run right away.

This whole thing has given me a thought. (and I won't take offense if you disagree)
FPSC X10 Developers (us) who wish to sell of our own sites could have a webring.
Each of our sites could be advertising the others.
I know what you are thinking...."why advertise for the competition?"
But are we really competition for each other?
I mean, people with systems to run X10 games made with FPSC X10 all have the same system specs.
X10 users are crying now for more titles from the forums I have visited. (NVIDIA 8 series discussions)
I think that the developers here have a wide range of diversity whic is a good thing.
It will take us awhile to develop quality games, so none of use will be offering a long list of title to begin with.
In other words, if I am only selling one or two X10 titles, then I can see no harm in offering links to more titltes for my customers. (I think they would appreciate it)
If there is already a link/banner exchange for FPSC developers, then let me know now because I am unaware of it.

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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 10:06
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$20 is the cost of most online games, well it is in the online casual market, so they serve perhaps as a price point.
yes that needs 50 sales to make the license cost.
I think 50 sales may be tricky for a lot of fpsc users, looking at the downloads of fpsc games on the BOTB, I posted the figures some place of the downloads these got, figures in the hundreds, cant remember off hand, something like 200-400 something like that. Now those are free downloads, so they will come right down once you ask for 20 USD, plus the numbers of people that have a machine to play the game will hold it back as well. But yea you might make the 1000 USD with a push, then try portals etc to get more sales, though these tend to be casual game players, best bet is get something decent and get it in a store, perhaps get an advance on the royalty, well not perhaps, if a publisher isnt fronting cash, forget them period.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 10:09 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 10:31
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Quote: " 200-400 something like that"

lol
My demo had over 500 downloads in less than a week after I squeezed in a blurb about it at the Military.com forums. (those soldiers love all shooter games)
I had to take the demo down because of bandwidth restrictions.


Quote: "plus the numbers of people that have a machine to play the game will hold it back as well."

Exactly. (see my post above about exchanging links for our users.)
I think each of those people will buy more titles than any one of us will be able to develop rapidly.
So, if we X10 developers exchange links then we can share the customers and all make more money.
But that is getting a bit off topic, so I'll save the rest of that for another thread.

Quote: "if a publisher isnt fronting cash, forget them period"

Ditto

There is also the TGC store mentioned in the newsletter...
Quote: "FPSC Creator users will shortly benefit from TGC Store, a shopfront built into the game editor. From here, models, media and other resources will be easily accessible, and continually updated. The finer details are being developed right now, but ultimately the productive, skilled members of the community will be able to use this as an outlet for their own creations, opening up a huge new market place. TGC is interested in maintaining a healthy market for indie game developers, and Rick explained the different ways one can go to market with a product. The pros and cons of publishing deals, including the overwhelming expectations placed on developers is valuable knowledge, and puts the ability to self-publish through TGC Store, the Internet and commission-based independent outlets in perspective."

I can't wait to see what that is all about.

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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 10:44 Edited at: 4th Nov 2007 10:47
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Quote: "I squeezed in a blurb about it at the Military.com "


Excellent marketing ploy, direct marketing, that makes sense, who is going to want to play shooting games, why people that have a profession of shooting, didn't think of that, that one strategy marked you with more downloads than BOTB games that just had TGC as a market.

Yep the web ring is a good marketing strategy, it adds more value to the site through interest in the ring and also brings in more traffic. Indies should get creative in marketing, I really see the future for indies is though being truly independent, breaking into the industry for a new developer is very very hard, especially with the business statagies of acquisitions in publishers, they don't look for new games or new devs, its a case of looking out for their job, and its like this, if you do what you have always done, you get what you have always got, and for them its a nice salary in their job in acquisitions. Getting money out of them is like getting money out of a stone, so as a developer you really have to self fund to get your foot in, shipping a done game will give you a better bargaing strategy and a bigger stake in what you take from a deal, less risk + more certainty, this gives you value that can be used to warrant what you want, and avoids getting the run around.
So rather than pitching pubs, it does make sense to do a done game self fund real cheap and use fpsc for the cheapness of the engine and its assets/packs/community freebies.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 4th Nov 2007 21:14
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So we can sell games, however we cant sell them commercially through a publisher?
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fallen one
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Posted: 5th Nov 2007 00:32 Edited at: 5th Nov 2007 00:32
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you can, but you need the extended licence, which is $1000 USD.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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fallen one
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Posted: 5th Nov 2007 10:25 Edited at: 5th Nov 2007 10:28
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Quote: "Quote: "4. Exploitation of Games

You shall ensure that, in respect of any Game which incorporates any part of the Software and which is created by you or with your permission:

(a) each such Game is accompanied by an end-user licence which repeats the terms set out in the first line of section 5.5 below and which also contains the following term:

'This product was made with, and incorporates part of, FPS Creator X10. All intellectual property rights including copyright in every part of FPS Creator X10 (whether modified or not) are owned by and reserved to The Game Creators Limited.'"

I have made in bold the point in question here.
Is this saying, Game Creators Limited own your IP (intellectual copyright) of your game?

Id like an official answer from Game Creators Limited on this, not speculation from mods or fanboys."


still no answer on this, Ill put this around if I dont hear an answer and see what I get from this.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Black Terror
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Posted: 5th Nov 2007 12:09
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Try emailing TGC because they do not post on the forums, they make the software. I'm sure they will reply to you if you ask.


Custom graphics, textures, and segments
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fallen one
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 15:48
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I got an answer from TGC, they said its just for the program, not the stuff you put in it.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Dog
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 16:40
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Hello All,

I'm not sure if this will help anyone but this is the response I recieved from TGC today.

Hi XXXXXXXXXXX,

We are looking at changing this to make it more easier to understand. We'll announce more info in the forums in a few days.

Rick

> Hello,
>
> I am having a hard time understanding the new lisence for FPSC X10.
> Please provide a clear understanding of what is the difference between
> standard and commercial and costs associated. Thank you
>
> XXXXXXXXXXX


http://www.webzsphere.com
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 18:54 Edited at: 6th Nov 2007 18:55
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Hi Guys,

Just to give you a heads-up on the license issue. I first introduced the extended license conditions at the TGC convention, and had a few worried looks back then. I am currently chatting with Rick about making the license a little clearer and simpler before we set it in stone.

Fear not, as you know we are avid supporters of indie developers, and have been since we started seven years ago. The last thing we want to do is put obstacles in your way. It was our hope that we could benefit in a small way from products that use our X10 technology commercially. We spent 15 months developing a cool new DirectX 10 only engine, at a cost exceeding $100,000 and we felt it was worth applying a commercial license for this reason. The existence of a commercial license should in no way prevent you from distributing and selling your games as indie developers. You buy X10 so you can make and sell games, and you will have that right under the standard license you get when you buy the product. The commercial license is designed only for those who make thousands of dollars from their creations, and the current EULA conditions are a wordy way of describing who that might be. We are looking at the license Wednesday to attempt to simplify it, and we will have a response to this issue before the week is out. Watch this space!

Lee Bamber
TGC

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
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granada
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Posted: 6th Nov 2007 23:56
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Quote: "Fear not, as you know we are avid supporters of indie developers, and have been since we started seven years ago. "


I agree .

Dave

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Deathead
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 00:32
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Quote: "I agree "

agree on what?
Anyways
Quote: "$100,000 "

thats £50,000. Quite alot. But if it is going by X10 quality then I understand. But does this mean DBProX10 will be alot of money.

[center]
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pdidy
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Posted: 7th Nov 2007 07:40 Edited at: 7th Nov 2007 07:55
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i think the extended licence is a good and sure thing for the small developer.
this should give you some comfort in knowing that a commerciall licence is in place
to protect your interest, lets be honest not everyone has the skills right away to
build a commerciall quality game. lets say that some game developer takes onboard x10.
with its capabilities what chance would the small developer have if someone with
the skills and knoledge to produce a commercial game without paying a licence fee.
what chance would a small developer have in building and marketing a game,
yes there is other game engines out there and they have licences to go with them.
how many people would jump ship if there was no licence fee to pay.
i think the licence will keep x10 more in the hands and controll of the small developer
and encorage more people to take up game development.
rather than see it exploited by the big boys,

(Fear not, as you know we are avid supporters of indie developers, and have been since we started seven years ago. The last thing we want to do is put obstacles in your way.)
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Endless Fps Team
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 06:37
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Now i get it...So i make my game, put it on my site and start selling it like that? Meaning i can sell it online only but not at stores? Simply i do understand... But if i create a disc and give it to friends and sell them it can i? (just a question)

How bout if i go to Movie Gallery or Hollywood video and they can sell it there? or i need the license?


http://endlessfpsteam.tripod.com/
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fallen one
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 09:38 Edited at: 8th Nov 2007 12:22
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Quote: "(c) the packaging and media containing any such Game and any marketing or promotional text referring to such Game shall each include the following legend:

Made with FPS Creator X10. FPS Creator X10 is (c) The Game Creators Limited. All Rights Reserved. www.thegamecreators.com "


The license blocks sales at portals and affiliates.

So places like bigfish games, popcap, reflexive etc etc, are off bounds, why because you cannot have outside links or details on the product.

Ill make a little story as it may aplly to TGC from the other perspective as if they are the portal, say I want to sell a great product on TGC store, TGC agree and up it goes on their site, they take the money in from sales and you get a cut of that, all's great, many of you may already do this type of thing, selling on portals etc. But you wont be doing it with your fpsc product, why is that, ill tell you, because you cannot have outside links on them, now just imagine how TGC would feel if you sold your product in their store and it had details on of your website and where to buy it, hey that makes TGC store just an advert, they see the product go oh yea that's from such and such, I can see it in the product advert right there, Ill go get it straight from them and not this affiliate acting as an agent, wow, nice free advert, to hell with your sales, so TGC, you wouldn't like that would you, not very good for business, and neither does any other portal or affiliate service, that's why you are not allowed to put details of external websites.
So the part in the license that wants this

Quote: "(c) the packaging and media containing any such Game and any marketing or promotional text referring to such Game shall each include the following legend:

Made with FPS Creator X10. FPS Creator X10 is (c) The Game Creators Limited. All Rights Reserved. www.thegamecreators.com "


This means you will not be able to sell over portals, a major part of the market, these portals reach massive numbers of people, without them selling online is a joke, you just will not reach the numbers of people without them. If you don't alter this detail, this will go around like wild fire across developer news sites and really hit you hard, I can hear the headlines now, TGC shoot themselves in the foot by a license that prohibits indie sales by portals, it will make a stink and hurt you in the end, you are doing more harm than good. Why don't you drop that part of the license and why not form a mutual relationship with the developer and use good will to allow them to promote fpsc, rather than branding your name over it.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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KeithC
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 12:35 Edited at: 8th Nov 2007 12:47
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You could always include in the $1000 license something to the effect of "Mentioning FPSC and The Game Creators is optional". I know other Indy companies use this approach to their more expensive licensing (such as GG). Many developers will include a splash screen for TGC anyways; but if you're asking for that much money out of an Indy, I think it may be worth looking at.

It would be different if the final executable size of an FPSC-made game wasn't enormous (something else that needs looking at), therefore allowing someone to realistically allow downloads from their site....without having their site go down, due to bandwidth restrictions. Most casual/Indy games are within 20-50MB, with the occassional title reaching a bit over 100MB. A simple FPSC level goes well beyond that, let alone a whole game. This makes it more viable to go with a distributor, therefore making the purchase of the more expensive license necessary.

Another way to go about it, is to offer to host and distribute a member's game on the TGC site; once sales of the game reach a certain amount...TGC could then deduct or withhold a larger portion of the profit; or simply offer two profit schemes: pay $500 (less than $1,000 as an incentive to go with TGC as a distributor) up front to have it put in the store, or sign over more of a percentage throughout the life of the game's sales. That way people who just don't have that kind of cash, can still participate in the "Indy Dream".

-Keith



Ozark Games
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fallen one
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 15:22 Edited at: 8th Nov 2007 15:35
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At the end of the day, I think the extended license fee effects a tiny handful, yes I know its real easy to make games with fpsc as one only has to paint the levels in, but how much work is really needed, I mean for a full game, even though you can buy guns and model packs, and the community makes stuff to buy or for free, how much work time and money are needed, its a nice marketing tag about making games and getting to sell them, but lets be honest, people wont buy trash and it takes serious work to make a game.

How much did it cost Ertov to make the fpsc commercial game Anderson & The Legacy Of Cthulhu that he had published under JoWood the publisher he used to work for, a hell of a lot of money that people on these boards will not have, in fact he didn't have, he got the money from the publisher and it was even at that tiny dev cost, compared to games in the main, but still well beyond what people on these boards will have access to, was given by milestones.

It doesn't faze me as I have thousands of game assets from a project that was canned, so no problem for me, but in the main its a hell of a lot of work to create a game, even bad ones, now the reason I bring this up is that with the license agreements you are stepping on the toes of a tiny few developers, for the sake of what, TGC stamp blasted on my game, its a bit of an insult to developers, no other engine sticks it name all over your game, yea a tiny few have splash screens, but you can have a higher license to get rid of them if you want, you certainly don't have to put the engines name and web page over every mention of your game.

If you have to do this for a game it would leave me and others with very bad relationship with the engine creators, what this amounts to is lets annoy the tiny few who will make a commercial game for the sake of a few adverts, I can tell you now this will get panned by indie devs, they will already have the knives out as fpsc attracts non developers who may be quite young and got the product for their birthday and imagine they are going to make the next Gears Of War or Halo etc, and that just pushes the nose out of joint for people who are serious about making games, fpsc DX10 makes people take more notice, then we get that license deal with the adverts for TGC all over it and it blows it, I say thank god you stuck the 1000 USD price on it, that will stop the kids flooding the net and any poor publisher from being flooded with 'creations'.

When you are starting to ask a real price for the engine, you are not talking to kids having fun, you are pricing small studios, small indie teams, and they don't like having an advert over their game, indie devs will just pass this one over, you will lose the customer who will raise the standard of output, and be left with the hobbyists that got this from mum and dad for Christmas, now in the main that is your audience, but having a few indie developers pick it up creates better output, gives the bulk of your market something to look to, or imagine they may be able one day to do, but you will miss that market as they will just pass the engine due to the license issue on TGC adverts all over the thing, this is a deal breaker issue, you need to seriously drop that from the extended license, I wouldn't raise the license fee to do that either, you will get panned from every indie review site for sticking your neck out so far.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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KeithC
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 15:46
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Those are some good points, Fallen One.



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fallen one
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 17:53
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Id also say, its bad enough for the dev trying to get equal billing on the box with the publisher or on the box at all, never mind put adverts on it for the game engine, it would be funny if this wasn't for real.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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henry ham
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 18:16
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KeithC what a great idea !!!! everyone wins with that 1

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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 19:32
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I think mentioning TGC in the games credits, or even putting their logo as a partner on promotional material would be fine...

But mentioning on EVERY piece of promotional artwork> thats a bit to far in my opinion...that would mean that half of the FPSC'ers would have to change their signature that promotes there game to say "Made with FPSC x10"

Now, i don't mind advertising TGC products, especially if they made my games creation possible, but lets face it...if you tell someone your FPS game is made with "FPS Creator" they definatly wont take you seriously.

http://www.seqoiagames.com
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fallen one
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 19:41 Edited at: 8th Nov 2007 20:44
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Quote: "Another way to go about it, is to offer to host and distribute a member's game on the TGC site; once sales of the game reach a certain amount...TGC could then deduct or withhold a larger portion of the profit;"


The other way around, pay less the more you sell, got to give an incentive to sell well, or you don't pay the license if you distribute through TGC, as TGC will be taking a cut anyhow as they are acting as a portal. I think I heard them mention they was doing a shop for fpsc content, so they may do that, personally id rather they didn't, as if one uses some fpsc content for ones own project, like the guns for example, you have a load of so so games, all using them on the TGC shop, personally I think the file size may be too large for them to host them, or just too large for people to download. Also I think the numbers of people making full games will be very low, like I say people underestimate the amount of art assets and effort required to make a full game, I don't think many people will be up to making full games, demos, yes, full games no.

Quote: "Now, I don't mind advertising TGC products, especially if they made my games creation possible, but lets face it...if you tell someone your FPS game is made with "FPS Creator" they definatly wont take you seriously."


Exactly, even if they game was good, its a no no, Its Ok if its said like down the line after you have shipped, like by the way, that game that did well, guess what, it was made in fpsc, its kind of funny then, you can talk about it in the press, fpsc get some publicity, its OK, but while you are shipping it, and you have this massive advert all over it, wow that looks cheap, if that wont kill it I don't know what will, fpsc is a cheap price product, I think if you make a good game out of it its a laugh, its a poke in the eye at the industry, but when you play a prank you don't tell them what you are doing before hand, it kind of ruins the joke. fpsc dx10 looks OK, it looks like you may be able to make something with it that can sell, but don't ruin the mischief before it starts, ship the game, get good sales, then tell all and bang it all over the press, you get good publicity over that, I can see the angles to go with that, the industry needs a kick, it takes itself way too seriously, this would be a good way to do it. That's your story and your marketing angle.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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vorconan
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Posted: 8th Nov 2007 23:53
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Why is everyone so bothered about this license? We are getting a great direct X10 engine for virtually nothing compared to what it should be.

Not many people who use FPSC can actually say they have packaged a game up and sold it commercially, the ones that have probably have the money to buy a license to do so anyway.

Commercial games take time and a lot of effort, especially when you're only an indie developer, so by the time it's going to take to finish an X10 game, more people are going to have new graphics cards, so there is more potential for sales.

As for the copyright, TGC can do whatever they want with their product, this is marketing they're after, commercial games show the engine that they were created with, so why not FPSCX10? I don't see how it will affect anyone who makes a game anyway.

On the whole, I personally think we get too much from TGC for such low prices, here's a great X10 engine, and you guys are bashing it just because you think it will stop you selling your brilliant game. How many of us thought they were going to make a commercial game with X9 and get it on store shelves? Me for one, I'm sure there are many others, the point is that if you have the same attitude towards TGC products as most of us do, you won't get very far with them, you can't keep expecting to make an excellent game just by leaving TGC to do all the work.

I might of rambled on and made no sense in some parts so sorry if I did, I'm just trying to prove a point.



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fallen one
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 01:22 Edited at: 9th Nov 2007 01:47
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Quote: "here's a great X10 engine, and you guys are bashing it just because you think it will stop you selling your brilliant game"


How dare we have such thoughts

By the way, only the larger publishers will market, the small ones don't have the budget for it and will mainly act as distributors, so the TGC free adverts will only come from large publishers with the budget to market a product.

Im also sure that fpsc dx9 had the same thing in place with TGC branding, Ill have to check, then check if there have been violations, if there has and TGC didn't press it legally it will make it difficult to do so on violations on the agreement down the line.

I can only think of one game that had a third party publisher and looking at the publishers web site I cant see the game any more, looks like they may of dropped it, hell that was fast if they have. Ill check it out further.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 03:58 Edited at: 9th Nov 2007 04:09
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Hi Guys,

As promised, I have talked it over with Rick and our lawyer dude and have amended the license agreement in X10 to address some of your concerns and make the whole thing five times easier to understand. In a nutshell, you can sell anything you make with FPS Creator X10 using any method you like, royalty free. If you then find after selling your X10 based games you earn more than $5000 (US Dollars) in total (after sales tax) you must buy the extended license to continue selling your X10 based games. No per product, per platform nonsense, just purchase the license once and you can freely earn anything over $5000 for the life of your titles.

This means you can sell through portals, put your game on a CD and sell it, you can be a huge team or even a publisher. It means you can sell what you make right away without paying a penny for a license, and ONLY if your game is successful do you need to worry about the license. A good trick would be to sell your game for $10, and keep $2 back from each sale. When you have sold 500 copies of your game, you have made $4000 in profit and you can afford to buy the extended license with the $1000 you kept to one side.

Also, on the subject of the copyright notices, we only require a mention in the credits of the software somewhere, and if you do a CD/BOX a mention on there too. No need to plaster our copyright text everywhere Nice if it was prominant, but this is not a requirement. Black text on dark grey is a nice trick. If there is demand for it, we might amend the extended license to make this copyright text optional, and something we can discuss if you get into a position where it becomes a factor in being able to sell your game to a publisher or games portal. The bit about using the copyright text in promotional material should be tempered with a bit of common sense, and is down to your own judgement as to whether the text is appropriate for the material in question.

I know we are giving away a lot now with the new EULA, but I feel indie developers must come first, and if anyone is fortunate enough to earn a great deal of money from their stunning looking X10 game, then a free copy of the game would be nice We are perhaps best known for 'affordable' game making solutions, and I personally wish to continue this trend as something that distinguishes TGC in the world of game making.

New EULA text below:


FPS Creator X10
Standard End User Licence Agreement

Please read before installing or otherwise using
FPS Creator X10

By installing the software (the 'Software') on any computer, or otherwise using the Software, you agree that any use of the Software is subject to the terms of this End User Licence Agreement (this 'Agreement'). If you do not agree to these terms please do not install or otherwise use the Software and return the Software unused in its packaging, together with all of its documentation, to the place of purchase for a refund.

The copyright in the Software and its associated documentation is owned by The Game Creators Limited "the Owner". All Rights Reserved. By installing or otherwise using the Software, you (an individual or legal entity) agree with the Owner to be bound by the terms of this Agreement which will govern your use of the Software and your limited right to exploit a part of the Software.

1. Licence

1.1 You are permitted on a non exclusive basis to:

(a) load the Software into and use it on a single computer which is under your control;

(b) transfer the Software from one computer to another provided it is used on only one computer at any one time;

(c) use the Software on a computer network provided you have purchased such number of copies of the Software equal to the maximum number of copies of the Software in use on that network at any one time;

(d) create, in strict accordance with the associated documentation, unlimited Games (as defined below), and copy and issue copies of these Games to the public in object code format only, and subject always to the provisions of section 1.5 and section 4 below.

(e) make a copy of the Software for back-up purposes only in support of the permitted use. The copies must reproduce and include the Owner's copyright notice; and

(f) subject to section 1.2(d) below, transfer the Software (complete with all its associated documentation) and the benefit of this Agreement to another person provided he has agreed to accept the terms of this Agreement and you contemporaneously transfer all copies of the Software you have made to that person or destroy all copies not transferred. If any transferee does not accept such terms then this Agreement shall automatically terminate. The transferor does not retain any rights under this Agreement in respect of the transferred Software.


1.2 You are not permitted:

(a) to load the Software on to a network server for the purposes of distribution to one or more other computer(s) on that network or to effect such distribution (such use requiring a separate licence);

(b) except as expressly permitted by this Agreement and save to the extent and in the circumstances expressly required to be permitted by law, to rent, lease, sub-license, loan, copy, modify, adapt, merge, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or create derivative works based on the whole or any part of the Software or its associated documentation or use, reproduce, exploit or deal in the Software or any part of it in any way;

(c) to copy or distribute to the public or otherwise exploit (on either a commercial or a non-commercial basis) any part of the Software other than within and as an integral part of an object code format Game;

(d) to sub-license any right granted to you in this Agreement unless expressly permitted to do so by the Owner in writing; or

(e) to transfer the Software or the benefit of this Agreement to any person if you have already incorporated any part of this Software into any object code Game.

1.3 To the extent that local law gives you the right to decompile the Software in order to obtain information necessary to render the Software interoperable with other computer programs, the Owner undertakes to make that information readily available to you. The Owner shall have the right to impose reasonable conditions such as a reasonable fee for doing so. In order to ensure that you receive the appropriate information, you must first give the Owner sufficient details of your objectives and the other software concerned. Requests for the appropriate information should be made to support@thegamecreators.com.

1.4 For the purposes of this Agreement the term 'Game' means an interactive entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user without further modification and which is made using the Software in accordance with its associated documentation. The term Game expressly excludes:

(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;

(b) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated;
in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user.

1.5 Notwithstanding any term to the contrary, you shall not (and you shall not permit any person to) sell, distribute, license or otherwise commercially exploit any copy of any Game once your total income (net of sales taxes) from all Games incorporating the Software exceeds $5,000 (five thousand US Dollars), unless you have first purchased a separate Extended Commercial Licence from the Owner.

2. Term

This Agreement is effective until you terminate it by destroying the Software and its documentation together with all copies. It will also terminate if you fail to abide by its terms. Upon termination you agree to destroy all copies of the Software and its documentation including any Software stored on the hard disk of any computer under your control.

3. Ownership

You own only the media (or authorised replacement) on which the Software is recorded. You may retain that media on termination of this Agreement provided the Software has been erased. The Owner shall at all times retain ownership of the Software as recorded on the original CD-ROM and all subsequent copies of the same regardless of form. Accordingly, the owner continues to own copyright in the Software including any part of the Software (whether modified or not) which is comprised within an object code Game. This Agreement applies to the grant of the licence contained in this Agreement only and not to the contract of sale of the media.

4. Exploitation of Games

You shall ensure that, in respect of any Game which incorporates any part of the Software and which is created by you or with your permission:

(a) each such Game is accompanied by an end-user licence which repeats the terms set out in the first line of section 5.5 below and which also contains the following term:

'This product was made with, and incorporates part of, FPS Creator X10. All intellectual property rights including copyright in every part of FPS Creator X10 (whether modified or not) are owned by and reserved to The Game Creators Limited.'

(b) the terms on which any such Game is used or exploited by any person include terms binding on all persons using or exploiting the Software which confirm the Owner’s ownership of the Software and the restrictions on the use or exploitation thereof set out in this Agreement;

(c) the packaging and media containing any such Game and any marketing or promotional text referring to such Game shall each include the following legend:

Made with FPS Creator X10. FPS Creator X10 is (c) The Game Creators Limited. All Rights Reserved. www.thegamecreators.com

and

(d) is not unlawful or actionable and does not infringe the rights of any person or breach any law or regulation.

5. Warranties

5.1 The Owner warrants that the media on which the Software is supplied will be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of 90 days after the date on which the media is first purchased ("the Warranty Period"). If a defect in the media shall occur during the Warranty Period it may be returned with proof of purchase to the Owner who will replace it free of charge.

5.2 The Owner warrants that during the Warranty Period the Software will perform substantially in accordance with its accompanying documentation (including the Readme file contained on this CD-ROM) which may include documentation posted on the Owner’s Internet site at www.thegamecreators.com (provided always that the Software is properly used on the computer and with the operating system for which it was designed) and that the documentation correctly describes the operation of the Software in all material respects. If the Owner is notified of material failures of the Software to comply with the above warranty during the Warranty Period it will use its reasonable endeavours to correct the Software or its documentation within a reasonable time so that it complies with the above warranty or (at its option) to procure or authorise a refund (against return of the Software and its documentation).

5.3 The above represent your sole remedies for any breach of the Owner's warranties, which are given only to the original registered user.

5.4 The express terms of this Agreement are in lieu of all warranties, conditions, undertakings, terms and obligations implied by statute, common law, trade usage, course of dealing or otherwise all of which are hereby excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law.

5.5 The Owner does not warrant that the Software will meet your requirements or will be suitable for creating commercial products or that the operation of the Software will be uninterrupted or error free or that defects in the Software will be corrected. You shall load and use the Software at your own risk and in no event will the Owner be liable to you for any loss or damage of any kind (except personal injury or death resulting from the Owner's negligence or loss or damage resulting from any fraudulent misrepresentation made by the Owner) including lost profits or other economic loss or any consequential loss arising from your use of or inability to use the Software or from errors or deficiencies in it whether caused by negligence or otherwise except as expressly provided herein. Save in respect of personal injury or death resulting from the Owner's negligence or loss or damage resulting from any fraudulent misrepresentation made by the Owner, in no event shall the Owner's liability exceed the amount paid by you for the Software.

6. Support

The Owner's technical support staff will endeavour to answer by email any queries in English the original registered user may have regarding the use of the Software or its application for a period of 60 days after the first support service email, which must be made within the Warranty Period. For technical support please visit the support pages at www.thegamecreators.com. The Owner shall use its reasonable endeavours to respond within seven working days of receipt of your email.

7. Law

7.1 This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with English law.

7.2 Each of the parties irrevocably submits for all purposes in connection with this Agreement to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of England.

8. Exclusion of third party rights

No term of this Agreement is enforceable pursuant to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 by any person who is not a party to it.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
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Satchmo
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 04:35
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And the gods have spoken.

That us so much better than before, because you don't need to worry about wasting $1000 if your game is a failure, and because its not, it wouldn't even leave a dent in your profits if it sells very well. Thanks lee, that's so much better. I feel kinda bad, were kind of like greedy little children, we whine until we get what we want. I really hope someone goes commercial with an X10 game, I would love to see a fpsc game one day!

Quote: "our lawyer dude"


Professional as always! Jk

I used to be Fxgamer
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 04:58 Edited at: 9th Nov 2007 05:10
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Quote: "
In a nutshell, you can sell anything you make with FPS Creator X10 using any method you like, royalty free. If you then find after selling your X10 based games you earn more than $5000 (US Dollars) in total (after sales tax) you must buy the extended license to continue selling your X10 based games. No per product, per platform nonsense, just purchase the license once and you can freely earn anything over $5000 for the life of your titles."


Lovely

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment

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KeithC
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 12:14
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Thanks for clarifying things for everyone, Lee; and for amending the license a bit. $5,000 as a cap for buying the commercial license is fair (especially after making $4,000 worth of profit from an engine that costs less than $100).

The clarification on the advertising is also welcome; most games I see made with Indy engines (such as GG) will put up a splash screen as the game is loading. It looks nice, and fulfills the requirement.

-Keith



Ozark Games
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PocoRev
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 15:17
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Sounds like the perfect solution to me.

I'm very thankful for the vision/philosophy/generosity of this company.

Professional Atmospheric Skybox Textures
http://skymatter.thegamecreators.com
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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 18:30
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I am so impressed with Lee/TCG for making this step. I think indie developers are the future. Keeping it simple will really help us get going. This will also definitely help to make us brand loyal!

Thanks for being responsive!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Mickm
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 20:11
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Lee / TGC,

That new license sounds very good, nice work.

Keep it up

Intel® Core 2 E6420 Duo Processor | 2GB DDR2 | nVidia GeForce 8600 GTS | Sound Blaster® Audigy HD Software Edition
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shadow651
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 20:31 Edited at: 9th Nov 2007 21:36
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just checked the back of a few game cases and well they include things like this like DOLBY pro logic 2 ATI even BT in one so i'm fine with the box ads even though none of my games will make it that far lol or make 5000
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Orrion Carn
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 21:37
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Thanks, I thought all my projects we're screwed... Thanks Lee.


Click here to join my design team, EARTH PRODUCTIONS
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Slayer222
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 23:06
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Wow I am totally heartbroken, I just got a new comp yesterday that can't run X10 because I got a 7800GT and XP all because of the license and now this, its way to ironic. This licence is great and fine with me (Lee even helped us with some nasty little hints) This is to bad. What a twist, what a twist. Wow, just wow,
*Slayer_2

EOT
[img][/img]
Check it out here: http://eliteops.piczo.com/?cr=6&rfm=y
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game lover
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Posted: 9th Nov 2007 23:21
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@ Slayer
ouch

We all want to be awesome, but does awesome want to be us?
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Orrion Carn
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Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
Posted: 9th Nov 2007 23:23
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Ouch... Bring it back within 30 days and get you money back. NO EXTRA CHARGES!!! lol


Click here to join my design team, EARTH PRODUCTIONS
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