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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Your 3 Most Annoying Bugs

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:52
@Santman

since am running DBP 7.61

I'll test and see what happens

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Brendy boy
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:57
@Santman
Can't you make the whole project with the example that demonstrates the problem and not provide only the text file with function. I'm to lazy to play with those function and Lee has quite less time than me.
Create a proper example

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:03
or not at this point

but from what I can tell

between the math for creating clouds and updating
there is a lot of things for the computer to work out

3d is part of this whole thing , the more 3d it has to work with
even on a single object that can slow things down , what may appear to be random is not

after a time the computer will need to clean up space to deal with the new
activity and that's ware the slow down happens

even with the best sytems out there this takes place

I've played many games that say the spec's must be this at max
and I've found this has never happen , you need what dose not exits yet

I loaded your 3d clouds into several 3d program and they all came out flat
looking

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Santman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:04
@Resourceful, thanks, will be interesting to see. For all I know, it's nothing to do with DBPro - could even be an nVidia driver issue.

@Brendy Boy, eh.....no, it's 5186 lines long.
Santman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:11
Yeah, the clouds are flat plains. They are never displayed, only used to cast shadows down onto the landscape. There are two problems though - the slowdown is nothing to do with the clouds, it runs at over 70fps on my system with the clouds as they are, the slow down is something totally different that I know won't be looked at. But the clouds are the odd problem. A simple program that loads them as objects 9000-9004, then create a plain/matrix as ground, and run the procedures, calling the updateclouds function at the end of every code cycle should demonstrate the issue, assuming it's not related to the other media which would normally already be loaded (they are not textured or anything). If I get time in the next day or two I'll look into that, but for now I have to get on with my day job as I have a VB application launching next week that still doesn't debug!!!

Any help you could offer Resourceful, or anyone else, greatly appreciated...but unless it's a driver issue it appears to be a problem with the alpha mapping shader.
Brendy boy
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:12
Quote: "@Brendy Boy, eh.....no, it's 5186 lines long."

make an example that demonstrates the problem, i'm sure that can be done within 100 lines. How do you expect from Lee to fix the bug if he can't even see it?

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:14
@Santman

I need a bit more code but from what I can tell

the two functions are

cloning an object and position it

the second one is moving the item around

not so much for changing the shape

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Santman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:18
I don't want to fill this thread with idle chatter now, so I've created this topic and answered you resourceful:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=193942&b=1
Lee or whomever, please feel free to delete the last few entries after my code.
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:23
@Santman

check out what I have so far



to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:33
@Santman

ok I understand

as for deleting my entry I do not know how to
other than declaring them spam

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Santman
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:07
Actually, Resourceful just reminded me - this last YouTube video shows the problem in action perfectly....skip firwards to 3:10 and you'll see I think 2 lovely, black solid clouds floating around - the rest alpha map correctly.
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:37
I consider Boolean data type to be broken, and would like to see it wrap between 0 and 1, not 255 as it does at the moment.

An example;



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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:46
@Burning Feet Man

I ran your code in DBP 7.61

The top 2 sopped at 255 and the next 2 just kept going

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:50
In theory, the Boolean data type should only hit 1 not 255. The other two will eventually stop if you let them go long enough.

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:55
@Burning Feet Man

what number should the other 2 stop at ?
how long would it be for them to come stop ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 03:38
Here you go Resourceful, I found this;

http://files.thegamecreators.com/darkbasicprofessional/darkbasic_help_variables.pdf

Have a read and hopefully it'll answer all of your questions on DBPro data types.

Note that I understand there are plenty of workarounds to this Boolean problem, but since TGC team are asking for things to be fixed, well... If I never ask it'll never get fixed.

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 03:55
@Burning Feet Man

thanks

yep the BOOLEAN is broken
when it hit's one it should stop not continue to 255

which means it been broken for some time since it's happening in DBP 7.61

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Dar13
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 02:11
The boolean type in DBPro is just a renamed byte type. If you're using it like a proper boolean, then you'll encounter no problems with it.

Why would you increase a boolean anyways?

Chris Tate
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 02:33 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 03:03
Hi Lee

I'm not sure why, but when you turn your camera using the Turn Camera commands, the Y angles do not span from 0-360. The following code demonstrates this.

The second camera on the right returns an angle in degrees, the one on the left does not. I did not use wrapvalue on purpose to demonstrate what is being done.

Both cameras rotate fine, but this causes a problem if you want to use the returned angles.



gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 02:51
@Chris Tate

I ran your example only 1/2 of the screen showed any thing
forward and back words and mouse to turn

the other side was completely black
with numbers that were known to change
but nothing else showed up on the screen

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Chris Tate
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 03:04
Something happened with my copy and paste; I've edited it.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 03:45
@Chris Tate

ok thats better

here is what showed up when I started it

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast

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Mistrel
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 08:33
Although this may be by-design, I still consider this to be a bug because it makes instanced objects completely useless:

Ambient, diffuse, specular not affecting instanced objects
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=145249&b=15

Set Shadow Shading On is completely broken:

"Set Shadow Shading On" causes crash when shader flag is used
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=187876&b=15

Also:

* Shadow range has no effect on software shadows (even at 0)
* Shadows look completely different between using software or the shader
* Shadows disappear when animating the model while using the shadow shader
* DBP will crash silently on a mesh value other than 0 if no other mesh exists

And:

Crash when deleting a cloned object w/shared data if it has animation
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=111301&b=15

JackDawson
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:13 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 10:17
I forgot about this thread.. but I posted a link about the memory not reporting right or if I try to report video memory, it will crash the program.

here is the link.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=193997&b=1



SYSTEM DMEM AVAILABLE is the command that crashes the program.

The other two commands do not report anything higher then 4096.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
=PRoF=
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:19
@JackDawson:

I'd already reported the video ram command earlier in the thread. The 4Gb limit is due to a 32Bit issue.

MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:24
Is there no way to circumvent this though¿ like I dunno maybe a dll call to access windows record instead or manually checking¿

JackDawson
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:24 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 10:30
oh I missed that somehow. my bad.. I read this whole thread.. but its 4:30 AM in the morning my time.. not fully awake yet.. Sorry about that.

Thanks though.

EDIT 1 : MrValantine.. you posted same time I did.. haha.. I think it really is a 32Bit issue. He would need to rewrite the code to work in a 64Bit environment. Calling an external DLL would work to "get the info" but then you still cannot do anything with that info since the DBP is a 32 Bit only compiler. Meaning, you are still stuck within the 4096 limits. So if DBP was rewritten to work in a 64 Bit OS that would solve the problems.


EDIT 2 : This also explains why certain 3D worlds I was working on is not working. I am going past the 32 Bit limits. Uhggg.. Bottom line, I'll have to do my extensive 3D worlds with C++ and OpenGL and use DBP for my simple stuff.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:34 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 10:40
@MrValentine:
I spent a long which trying to work out alternate ways to find the Display Ram, and I have managed it in XP by checking a registry value. In vista and 7 however, it groups your display ram together with a load of virtual ram and reports someth like 1.2Gb on my 512mb 8800. (Oddly enough, this is the same amount as Windows now reports my GFX ram to be as well)

I use this command in my debugging/reporting software to give me an idea about what spec's people pc's are when they run it.

>edit<

I thought I'd share this as I mentioned it here...



I'm not sure if this is the most recent version of it, I seem to have gotten all my DBP projects muddled up :$ lol

MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 10:43
Hmm... I hope you are mentioning your data collection

umm can you share that method or did it take you a lot of work to get to it¿ if so I am ok with getting the base 32-bit values...

Your EDIT 2... umm so if one creates a large world in DBP it could cause issues?

Also umm so about the video memory crash I believe I encountered this last year too... is there a workaround for this?

JackDawson
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 15:30 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 15:58
@ MrValantine The problem I have seen is not creating worlds per say. I mean if you look all over this forum you can see they can create games just fine. But none of them are trying to create whole planets and a universe and shown that they have successfully done it. In fact, from what I am seeing, the folks who posted any type of success has had to go through a lot of work arounds just to come close.

What I have been trying to do is write it all inside of DBPro. But the 32 Bit limits cause the problems. With a max of 4096 Gigs ram total you will run out of memory ( RAM / Video Ram ) really fast if your trying to do what I'm trying to do. I have pulled in WGLfx into my idea and even he has agreed to do this with C++ / OpenGL with me because there is no way to do this in DBPro. Its too limited of an IDE. Once it ever gets to be a 64Bit compiler, then we in Windows 7 can use it.


So again, if you want to do lower math type games, like most all do on this forum, then the current version of DBPro will work just fine. But dont try to make a universe out of it, you'll run out of ram or heck even hit the 32 Bit barrier.

Now some I have heard reports of using a math that once it hits a number send the info to another variable and start the first variable again.

Example :

If t > 998 then t2 = t2 +1..

With this type of idea it works. But.. What I soon found out is, I run out of memory for the compiler. So in essence, it crashes or slows WAAAAY down. I have 8 gigs ram on my system and about to upgrade to 32 Gigs on my computer. I need to be able to read all this since I am working on creating a server. And it needs the higher 64 Bit OS to run.

The client itself can be a 32 Bit client.

So because of these issues I have ran into, its how I ended up here with checking the video ram verses the regular ram, and that's what started my needing this fixed.

If I get told that this will never be a 64 Bit compiler, so be it. I'll keep this for small apps. But as I learn C++ more and more, I am seeing less and less need to use DBP since its becoming more and more useless in Windows 7 64 Bit OS.

EDIT 1 : For those who say "but it can use more then 4 gigs ram". Ok.. the problem is.. not gaining access to the upper memory. Its gaining access to it in Windows 7 under a 64 Bit OS. Please read this article. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366796%28v=vs.85%29.aspx ( NOTE : This website is not recognizing it as a link. ) In this article it explains whats happening slowly as we migrate to 64 Bit and what is happening to future windows versions. This is also why some who use DBP are still using XP. They blame windows, but in reality, its the Compiler that has the limits.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 16:08 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 16:10
@JackDawson

umm please look over the latest News Letter

The Game Creators Newsletter - Issue 109

the "Starwraith series" - written in DarkBASIC Pro
so it is possible it's how thing things are built that affect things

I've seen and heard about 2 space games they had 30,000 lines of code
with new additions of now in place for DBP that can be cut down
as they are mostly dll's but one of them is purer DBP code

"Real-time Occlusion Culling"

the other member to family and it dose permit a lot of options is
Dark Imposters plugin DBPro/GDK

SPARK 3D Particle Engine wrapper 1.2.3 for DBPro
cuts down on extra lines of code and it's free

a lot of things are possible , I'm by no means saying it's easy to do
with all the example I've found in the forum , I've seen what is possible

I've collected a lot of code over time and I still waiting and hope for a
just a couple of more peaces to be created or I eventuality figure out how to do

there has been a lot of games created even in dos that did some amazing things
people did not think possible

@JackDawson

you just have to come up with a method that shows what your after
even if you have the best system in the world poorly written code
will make it chug dirt

the answers are there

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Dar13
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 18:59
@JackDawson
If you run out of RAM to hold your universe's data, why not commit the data to the hard drive? That way you can have a persistent world and reliable look-up as well as freeing up some memory.

JackDawson
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 19:05 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 19:05
@ Dar13, not for a server. The problem was the bottleneck of having to wait on the hard drive to respond. I am trying to load this all into memory and have only minimal hard drive contact. With two redundant hard drives, and a backup power supply, I wont loose my data that is in memory. Its faster and lag free for gaming when you have a lot of people logged in at once.

@ MrValantine.. I am not disputing any of that. There have been many games that are cool, but they have to use a work around for the problem. And in any case, they are not doing what I'm trying to do, so its no comparison.

Thanks for the responses guys. But as I said, I'll do this with C++ as far as the server is concerned. The client I can make with DBP and be just fine as I can use "tricks" to get around the 4 gig barrier.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
Santman
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 19:46
I'm confused - why is everyone saying they will run out of RAM if they are loading a whole wolrd into RAM? Of course you will - that's just plain common sense, unless your world is barren and your textures so small they would look rubbish. That's why worlds are loaded in chunks and then manipulated that way. You think that GTA4 managed to load it;s entire city into RAM on a PS3 or 360? Or that Skyrim's entire game world appears? Or spore? Lol.

If you want an example check out the original Morrowind - that's cell based world construction with early streaming - you can see the pause everytime you cross a cell border as the game freezes while the data is loaded and compressed. Obviously it's come along way....but the basic principle remains the same.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 20:15
@Chris Tate

I agree that the returned camera angles are confusing. The one on the right is the one that makes sense to me. Looks like a bug somewhere.
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 21:55
that explains a lot

no game ever loads every thing into memory

based on whats being said you would need 50 to 80 gb of ram
to do what your wanting to do which is currently not an option

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
JackDawson
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 22:02 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 22:06
@ Santman, you got it exactly. Of course you will run out of memory. However, if I get the 32Gigs ram for my server and run the clients I can get away with it. However, 32 Bit compilers, even though the games created can go beyond the 4 gig limits, will not run on a 32 Bit system because a 32 Bit system is limited to 4 gigs total by its OS as a 32 Bit OS. A 32 Bit compiled game, no matter what you do, if its on a 32 Bit OS, will never reach beyond the 4 gig limit. AND this includes the video ram as well. ( In other words, both are combined ) But.. if a 32 Bit software is ran on 64 Bit OS it can go beyond the 4 Gig limit. This means though that it will run inefficiently and slow down on a 64 Bit machine. Why ? because of the overhead it needs to accommodate the translation in the CPU to go from 32 Bit to 64 Bit. So, if the compiler is 64Bit, it will increase performance on a 64 Bit OS. ( In other words, better frame rates or performance. ) And keep in mind, a 64 Bit OS can hold up too 192 GigBytes. But the Hardware MUST be 64 Bit CPU as well if you are going to run a 64 Bit OS.

So yea.. as you can see, DBP is not going to cut it for what I'm trying to do. Its limited to 4 gigs.

EDIT 1 : @ Resourceful, it has been proven on youtube already as well as press releases that servers can and will hold everything in memory if you program it to do so. There are people all over the net who are proving that you CAN make a whole universe procedurally that are doing this very thing. Procedural planet making is huge in the indie C++ / OpenGL websites. Again, I found out you cannot do this in DBP as its too limited or slow for this kind of math.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 22:18
From Lee's first post:

Quote: "I invite you to list your top three DBP bugs in this thread (from U77 release candidate) and we can have a good chat about which ones should make it to the top twenty, and in which order. I will maintain the top twenty at the top of this thread and keep updating it until we're 85% in agreement about the list. I can then commission our highly prized super coder to tackle them for you."


Why fill this thread with all this other stuff? Please stay on topic - and do what Chris Tate did a few posts back.
Lost Dragon
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 23:18
The set text command is slow. Text commands in general are very slow.

There are 3rd party ways to fix it. Those shouldn't be necessary. There's no good reason for native text commands to be slow.
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 01:40
@Lost Dragon

how are the text commands slow ?

they are the simple to use and the response I get from when in use
has dun what I ask of it

as for 3rd party ways to fix
I would be interested in being pointed to such

please post some code and provide links to such 3rd party examples

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Santman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 02:08
@Resourceful

Lost Dragon is correct - my project can toggle large quantities of debugging text on or off, and when on the framerate hit for around 30 sentence is about 7-8%.

Not a bug though......
Santman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 02:38
OK....my random extreme slow down returned, and it;s accompanied by some serious screen corruption. I've attached a shot - the corruption appears to scramble the shadow shader, and drops the framerate from 60+ to 21.

NOTE: no changes were made to this world, but the earlier, far simpler one still runs perfectly well. Is this a memory issue? According to task manager the progam is using approx 260 meg running, I have 3gb with plenty free, so I shouldn't think so, but...

It's actually almost as though anti-aliasing is being forced on for this one world....

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 02:48
ok I just woke up on the 3rd party text commands ;OP

comes back to the math .. so much happening at the same time

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Mage
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Posted: 7th Feb 2012 05:30 Edited at: 8th Feb 2012 03:20
When you try to create a memblock from an image created from a camera with "Set Camera To Image" command.
You get this error, even if the camera in question is already deleted.



"Runtime Error 507 - Cannot read an image currently locked by system at line xx"


Edit:
I ADDED THE ZIP FILE WITH EXAMPLE OF THE BUG THANKS!

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Wyldhunt
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Posted: 7th Feb 2012 05:54
@Mage
Quote: "Lee Bamber said:

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback so far. Just to steer you in the right direction, put yourself in my shoes when writing your suggested bugs. One liner throw away statements about something that does not work means I have to first figure out what the issue actually is, then write a program in the hopes of reproducing it, and only then do I see what the problem is. That can easily take 1 hour per bug, and I only have a few hours each day. Now that does not include the actual fixing, testing and uploading part

Lets set some simple guidelines (rules). I will only add an item to the list that has a zip file containing a project that runs and shows me the issue (cannot use third party commands). It must not be an IDE or compiler issue at this stage. It must clearly show a bug, not be an elaborately disguised feature request

All your feedback is relevant, and we'll get to them for sure, I just want to filter the items so we get a clear list of reproducible issues that can be fixed quickly and released to you."


Am I missing the zip file containing a project that runs and shows Lee the issue?
Seems like something worth fixing.
It'd be a shame to have it thrown out because of a technicality.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Feb 2012 23:16
Lee

Here is a zip file containing seven different bugs each in a separate subfolder. Details of each bug are given in the corresponding dba files.

The bugs included concern:

1. Cube map stages - DBPro behaves erratically or crashes when extra texture stages are used with the set cube mapping on command with shaders.

2. get/save image bugs - DBPro handles image scaling inconsistently when get image/save image/sprite etc are used (may be more than one bug here). Symptoms seem to vary a bit on different OS - but inconsistencies have emerged in each case.

3. limb texture problems - set object texture doesn't always affect all limbs

4. load image/image exist problem - DBPro doesn't correctly detect certain image file types when they don't exist.

5. rendercolortarget shader problems - when rendercolortarget is used DBPro doesn't correctly handle shaders which have multiple techniques with varying numbers of passes.

6. set object specular problem - doesn't work with directional lights.

7. sound volume problems - set sound volume behaves strangely on XP computers.

Some of these have been around a long time. I've tried to give a reference to the original bug report (where there is one). I've tested all these on U7.7RC7 on both XP and Vista today.

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Mage
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 03:22 Edited at: 8th Feb 2012 03:24
@Wyldhunt
Quote: "Wyldhunt said:
Am I missing the zip file containing a project that runs and shows Lee the issue?
Seems like something worth fixing.
It'd be a shame to have it thrown out because of a technicality. "


I added the zip file to my post above.
I have also attached the zip file to this post. (2kb)

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 13:20 Edited at: 8th Feb 2012 19:08
Lee

Three more very annoying bugs to look at.

These are:

8. DDS file memblock bug - make memblock from image gives nonsense for compressed DDS files.

9. GameFX Help file example broken - the Help file code crashes when the media don't already exist (broken since U75, worked fine with U74).

10. Multiple camera bug - non-consecutive cameras need an additional (possibly unused) camera before they will work.


Edit

Quote: "Your 3 Most Annoying Bugs"


Oops. Missed the "3".

I guess the most annoying among the 10 I've posted (including my previous post) are these:

1. Cube map stages

5. Rendercolortarget shader problems

9. GameFX Help file example broken

10. Multiple camera bug.

Choose any 3 from those (or better still all 10 ).

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Kezzla
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 11:41 Edited at: 10th Feb 2012 23:21
I only have one at the moment, I havnt used the lastest beta for a while now because of a bug centered specifically around the visibility of a textured backdrop when fog is turned on.

when there is a textured backdrop and fog is turned on the backdrop image is not visible.

this problem does not occur with colored backdrops.

i like a little fog and it messes with dark clouds.

heres some code that demonstrates the bug



edit: added zip file
I would call this a needed bug fix as it negatively effects dark clouds which is an official dark basic plugin.

/edit


Sometimes I like to use words out of contents

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 13:05 Edited at: 10th Feb 2012 13:11
Kezzla

I agree there's an inconsistency there which needs clarifying.

It's not obvious to me which is correct. If the backdrop is intended to represent a distant scene then the texture backdrop/fog combination is doing the right thing - i.e. fog will completely obscure it as in your demo. I think the color backdrop/fog combination does it wrong - i.e. the backdrop is unaffected by fog. But that's just my opinion so I think Lee should look at this and clarify this for us. My guess it that different users will want different things so perhaps an extra flag for both commands is the best way to go, i.e. something like:



Edit But I guess that would be dismissed as a feature request.

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