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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / The Ultimate Shader Thread 2.0

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Morcilla
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Posted: 9th Mar 2005 07:53 Edited at: 9th Mar 2005 07:54
@Evolved,
now I understand what you said. In order to affect only one object, the trick is to have it off-screen and then overlay the HDR image with the current camera view, right?

@Ninja Matt,
Great Work! Maybe you should try to mix some kind of edge-detection with the bloom shader, so that "center" colors are not "washed-out", but contour still brights (even a lot). Perhaps just using a fine tunning of the angle of surfaces with the camera would be enough for a simple discrimination.

I'm still revising your code, but I already suppose that it is also a whole-scene shader. Maybe the above trick for only one object could work also. In any case I think it's great, and it seems kind of fast!
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 9th Mar 2005 08:22 Edited at: 9th Mar 2005 08:22
@Morcilla:
Edge-detection? That's not such a bad idea - I might have to look into that!

Unfortunately, yes, my previous shader is another whole-scene system. I think the only way to effect certain objects while doing something like this is to render the scene twice - first the actual scene, the again for the glow/fog/ripple/whatever. It might sound bad, but you can usually make a few sacrifices for the 'special' render, like reducing the view distance of the camera, lowering the geometric detail and rendering into a small image.

They're quite fun to make, so I think I'll try my hand at a few more scene-based shaders!
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 9th Mar 2005 10:09
@Morcilla

sorry for the mix up it was ment to be this :
"its cus its done through the set camera to image command and `NOT` the shader it self."
i tryed to edit my post but i get error - have to abort, etc.

@Ninja Matt
im thinking off looking in to ASM instead of HLSL is there any advantages to ASM over HLSL , as it seems bit more complex??
Morcilla
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Posted: 9th Mar 2005 19:38 Edited at: 9th Mar 2005 19:42
@Evolved,
I see. Your cubemap shader is very good looking also. I was not able to load the image from DBPro, either. I tried everything I know. I think this could be a bug.
This is your shader working with a nice cube texture (loaded from the shader ):


@Ninja Matt,
Quote: "I'll try my hand at a few more scene-based shaders!"

jipijipijOOoU!
Maybe edge-detection brings us also side benefits for that "one-object-only" thing (just thinking loud).

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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 9th Mar 2005 21:32 Edited at: 9th Mar 2005 21:34
@Evolved:
As far as I can tell, there isn't any difference in functionality or speed between ASM and HLSL (at this level anyway - not sure about shader model 3.0). In fact, HLSL is compiled into ASM before it's used, so your code ends up like that whatever you do. The advantage of HLSL is that different accelerators can compile it in different ways, so you get faster and more consistent results between computers. ASM, on the other hand, gives you lower-level control, so it's easier to write efficient shaders and more obvious where your performance bottlenecks are.

I personally think that HLSL is more complex, since I'm used to ASM!
AlexI
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 00:52 Edited at: 12th Mar 2005 00:53
how can i use these awsome shaders in dark basic classic or do they even work atall with it???????????????
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 06:13
@Morcilla
if its a bug i hope the dbp team fix it, thay`ll probably have make new commands too. like "LOAD CUBEIMAGE fi$,imgnum" or "make
CUBEIMAGE imgnum,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5,f6".. so iv given up on shaders for now .

@!hi!
DBC dose not support shaders or even PS/VS, its like a 8 year old engine..

@Ninja Matt
thx for the info, HLSL it is for me then
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 14th Mar 2005 04:43
Hello there,
i would like to ask if it is possible that anyone of you smart guys can compile a normalmap fx which will use the objects texture or mutiple textures?
Like
load effect "normal.fx",1,0
it would be perfect if it used multiple textures
Thanks
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 15th Mar 2005 22:00 Edited at: 15th Mar 2005 22:01
@Cucumber:
Well, it'd be a bit tricky to use multiple textures on my previous normalmapping shader, since it's already hit the maximum texture count for PS 1.1. Although, with a couple of quick changes, it shouldn't be too hard to get it to work with textures already applied to the object, as you mentioned above. The problem at the moment comes from a texture stage 'conflict' between the base and specular passes, but that can be sorted out easily!

Speaking of PS 1.1, I've now changed my thermal shader so it'll work under the earlier models! Here's the new version, which should run fine for people with older hardware:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~moonrise/matt/Thermal11.zip
Required
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Posted: 16th Mar 2005 00:11
Why not use a Multiple-Pass Shader for extra textures?
That is how I would get a Blur working in Pixel Shader 1.1.

It would be easier to use HLSL for it, let the graphics card drivers worry about optimisation.

CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 16th Mar 2005 05:13
i just want an easy shader that work like in doom3 or riddick chronicles.
Game pro
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Posted: 16th Mar 2005 05:13
isnt there a way you can also create shadows without using shaders?

I mean sure it will be harder but my crappy *** machine doesnt support shaders so i need an alternative for creating some shadows...

possibly i could make a .x file that follows underneath the character...

Finally not a newb anymore at programming... now im just a rook.
Ian T
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Posted: 16th Mar 2005 09:17
This isn't a shadowing thread, this is a shaders thread.

Cucumber, that level of quality is not compatible with 'easy'. You're going to have to do a good deal of work to get something to work like that in your game. Do not expect it to be easy.

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 16th Mar 2005 09:21
Quote: "ATI Radeon 9500 - VS 1.1, 2.0 PS 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2.0
Notes:
Added VS 2.0 and PS 2.0 to the Radeon series. This card and all other Radeons after it should be able to run any shader out there currently."

Figures. I have a 9200.

My name is Underhill...commit it to memory.
"Vee vill drive zhem from zee peer-to-peer sites, vee vill beat zhem vith a stick!" ~Leo Laporte, mocking the RIAA
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 17th Mar 2005 00:52
i mean easy like using the same complicated getnormals.fx on every other objects that i have on screen.
to be able to use this, i have to be able to use the fx file on objects which are texture independant.

in order to manage the above, i use dds texture mapped (with alpha channel) objects, i did it with objects using one texture only but couldnt manage using the texture stage and the normals.fx file found in this forum.

somehow there has to be a way to tweak it and i believe ninjaguy is the only one who can do that.
Required
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Posted: 17th Mar 2005 00:53


That will tell you if you can play Shader games or not.

Ninja Matt
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Posted: 17th Mar 2005 11:40
@Cucumber:
I'm sure I'm not the only one who can! Getting the shader to use textures specified by DB rather than the .fx file is usually really simple, but I messed up the code a bit! In the first pass, texture stage 0 corresponds to the base/diffuse map, while it corresponds to the normal map in subsequent passes. Whoops!

Anyway, that's fixed now. It wasn't anything more complicated than changing a couple of numbers around. Grab the new version here, the example should show you how to set your objects textures up properly:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~moonrise/matt/NormalMap22.zip
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 17th Mar 2005 20:42
what if the model use 2 or more base/diffuse maps as well as several specular maps for several faces?
Vlasov Alexey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 21:06
Hello, everyone
I'm experiencing a problem rendering lightmap mesh. I've taken fps.dba as a source. There are 2 meshes with one and the same geometry but different texture coordinates. Shader offsetmapping.fx is assigned to the 1st mesh. The second mesh uses lightmap texture and ghost object on 1000,1. I saw this method of rendering lightmaps in one of the old demos. There were no z-fighting there - but I do have it in my scene. When I replaced shader offsetmapping.fx with shader Terrain10.fx. everything worked just fine. I believe there is a problem in rendering texture stages or in the very architecture of darkbasic - I may be wrong, of course. If anybody knows what the problem is (shaders, texture stages etc.) please help me with that. The project with textures and max files can be downloaded from here.[href]http://all.skyfallen.com\pub\fps_bug.zip
p.s. used panda for export - you can find it in folder "exporter" in zip file.
Thanks for lot!

Life is beast. Beast must die
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 23:32 Edited at: 29th Mar 2005 18:57
yo...

ok iv taken a brake from shaders for a few days now . so yesterday i was realy bord so i started workin on volume shadowing....

but i have come to a prob cus i need to do the same sort of white object ghosting effect that dbp dose through the shader, so all of it can be done with the shader. if any one knows how to do white object ghosting in the shader this will be a grate help !! . o i have tryd using the alphblending thing but the volume will over lap evey other volume in the seen... if we cant do this ill have to make a shadow function or someing.

ok heres how it works at the mo(just for testing).

step one.
make object 1 , this is the object that cast the shadow volume and gets ghosted with dbp.the volume shder has two passes, one for the back clip that has an rgb of 0.0,0.25,0.25,1 and the other pass renders the front clip at an rgb of 0.25,0.0,0.0,1 , so where the front and back over lap the rgb is at 0.25,0.25,0.25,1 , any other place ( where the shadow will be) is at 0.25,0.0,0.0,1 . got it ?
make objec 2 , object that is the above object for selfe shadowing.
make objec 3 , object that will reserve the shadow.
(position the above at like 0,-5000000,0 or someing )

step two.
whack a camere to the position of the above objects and then set it to a high res image of 1023x1024 (we can lower it to 256x256 and blur the images later on to do >SOFT< volume shaows ). now we need to filter out the camera image whith a shader, so where its red (im.x < im.y), or where colours are diffrent it`ll be filld in black , where the colours are at the same RGB(img.xyz) fill it in white.

step three.
same as step one but with object textured how u normally would have it. and slap a plan with the filted fx image to the camera.



ok heres how i want it to work.

step one.
make your seen objects and set the bumpy+vol shader to it. and do the above step two with the camera image set to 512x512 or 256x256 and blur it for soft volume shadowing. and thats it.



ok here is how the shader will work(hopefully)....

pass one.
same way used in the refraction shader we`ll texture the object with the final blured camera soft shadow image(we can also parallax this if your useing parallax mapping).. now we can do our bumpampping or what ever lighting your doing(or im doing)so it`ll over laps the shadow image makeing it look realy good?.

pass two.
render the new vertexes at -50000,-50000,-50000 , colour it black.(selfe shdowing + for other volumes to receive)

pass three.
we can now do multiple volume shadows naffing the fps, this has a cull of CW (so it renders the back faces). vertexes gets renderd at -50000,-50000,-50000 and we`ll some how have white object ghosting on it too.

pass four.
same as pass three but with the cull mode set to CCW for the front faces.

this is the only way i can think of that we can do a realy good doom 3 lighting clone (or unreal3 with soft volume shadowing and parallax mapping). rember that this is just an ideia. for now . and if it dose work it`ll be grate for a 4x4 box room (with no roof or floor ) cus it`ll run pretty dam slow .
AlexI
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 08:13
just discovered when i was making a texture in 3ds max you can save your textures as fx files also i have one question i have DBC currently but am planning on upgrading to DBP as loads of cool new fetures but can you select wich object you would like to have what shader or dose everything have to have the same shader???
Try
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 16:34
@Evolved:
I was playing with your wonderful bump map shader.
I don't know if you've noticed or not, if you turn your object n degree(s) then lights vectores won't act correctly.(wrong lighting )
Can I ask you to fix that, please?

Oh and how can I have 1 directional light in that shader? for example the first light be directional and others be omni lights with range(it already does this one )

I know my English is awful, so... SORRY for that!

Thanks.

GOOD LUCK!
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 19:14 Edited at: 29th Mar 2005 19:30
@Try

i sugest useing Ninja Matt`s ace normalmap shader du to haveing probs with codeing in ps < 2 .. but ill rework on it when iv done what im currently doing.(look on page 1 for Ninja Matt`s normal map shader)

done great progrss today, found out a way of morphing in to the volume so it dose not mess up. demo soon but need to rewrite the code that dose to volume casting...

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EVOLVED0
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Posted: 31st Mar 2005 07:48 Edited at: 1st Apr 2005 05:48
got the shadows going and that , but now i need to find a way of overlapping the shadows where the lighting is..

@Ninja Matt.
i have a stencil volume from the ati shadow demo and its in asm(think its in shader format) it seems to be better than nvidas one im useing (cant figger out how to make my own), and is there any chance of you getting it going in dbp?, just to see if it works better. if your still around that is. thx



screenshot - with 2 light sources


also.
any one konw how to stop dbp from automatically hideing the objects when its out of the screen (volume will hide when the sphere is not in the screen).

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Try
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Posted: 31st Mar 2005 19:04
@Evolved:
Phew! Nice work...

I've got a few effect files from NVidia(I think!) but I couldn't run them in dbp! But I put them here anyway, hope it helps!
I just could show the shadow volume(which shader extrudes) Hope you get it to work...
I think I had a stencil one too. do you need it?(I must find it!)

HLSL_SoftShadows:


HardwareShadowMap:


GOOD LUCK!
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2005 02:40 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2005 02:40
wohoo nearly finished Per Pixel Lighting i`ll slap it in to a quick tut as well if u want...



aslo stoped work on shadow volumes atm cus i need to add in a load ploygones to the object that will cast the stencil(have to use dbp memblocks and it`s gunna be a bit coeding) and put it in as a function. but im getting like 250x the fps of the hardware shadows that dbp uses("set shadow shading on" command)on multiple stencil volumes .

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Maleck
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2005 06:42
I would be interested in a tutorial on that if oy uget the time. I am really interested in the lighting stuff for the project I am working on.

Thanks and great work.
Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 08:22
Thank goodness they fixed that last shader glitch before releasing the 5.8 final. For a bit many of the shaders here didn't work .

Has anyone considered, or started on, making a collection of these in a tech demo format? They'd make a really awesome showcase of what DBP+shaders are capable of

<maddox> yeah, most help channels tend to be elitist.. "HOLY ---- YOU ------- IDIOT, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT ALREADY. NEVERMIND THE PURPOSE OF THIS CHANNEL!
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EVOLVED0
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Posted: 4th Apr 2005 00:35
quick lighting demo , only has one light atm ill add in some more l8er on, also looks like you can load cubemaps in U5.8 so ill add in cube lighting when thats out aslo cubemap normalization.

PS1.4 min

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MikeS
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Posted: 4th Apr 2005 01:25
Very very nice Evolved.

I as well would love to see some kind of shader tool or showcase for DBP.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Baggers
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Posted: 4th Apr 2005 06:50
A showcase would be a brilliant way to show off what can be done with the right tools !
And evolved.....stunning work !
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 4th Apr 2005 23:19 Edited at: 4th Apr 2005 23:19
Sorry I haven't been around much guys - I'm trying to get my Uni dissertation done in the next couple of weeks, so I'm pretty busy right now!

I'll take a look at the ATI shadow example when I can, and I still owe you all an example of an orthographic shader, right? Give me a few days and I'll see what I can do!

Oh, and good work, Evolved! That's a lot further than I thought anyone could get with a shadow volume shader!
Gen
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Posted: 5th Apr 2005 14:56
Damn, DBP... able to do way more that I had thought

That is very nice! Me like...

Soon to come... Dark IDE, New IDE for DarkBASIC Pro!
Van B
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Posted: 5th Apr 2005 19:05
Awesome work guys, nice to see this topic still going strong (albeit in a fresh thread).

I just love that paralax shader, esp' the way it just worked on any old mesh I threw at it - I've never had that sort of luck with shaders before .


Van-B

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 5th Apr 2005 23:33
Nice one Ninja Matt, glad to see the Normal shader is fixed. I'll get round to using it as soon as possible .

Evolved - That lighting looks really nice, though in DBPro, is it possible to apply two shader effects on the same object at once? Because if that was to be used for a torch or something, it'd be handy if it didn't screw up when you used it on a bump mapped, or shiny surface.

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 7th Apr 2005 00:06
fantastic stuff you guys... my hat goes off to Ninja Matt (as usual) and Evolved for the great work they've generously shared with the rest of us...

--Mike
Try
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Posted: 7th Apr 2005 04:48 Edited at: 7th Apr 2005 04:53
@Evolved:
Very nice progress. Thanks for taking care about that rotating problem.

It would be great if you add an ambient light option in your per pixel lighting shader (It's really dark in some points!)

@Ninja Matt:
Can't wait to see some great stuff from you.(As usual )


How do you guys create height maps for Parallax Map shader, is there a way to convert normal maps to height maps?!!! (I mean having one hight res model and one low res, etc., you know!)

GOOD LUCK!
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 7th Apr 2005 07:11 Edited at: 7th Apr 2005 08:12
@try
normal maps are made from height maps .. but im sure there are tools on the net to make height maps from normal maps .

iv also got U5.8 so im adding in cube light maps to the point lighting, but i can only do 2-3 lights per pass because i can only output 6 textcords for ps 1.4 (each light needs point light in 3d space and cubemap in 3d space) and also on top off that i need vertex lighting and light fall off , so your going to have too make 2 objects that are the same and ghost the object with the pixel lighting (like when u load cshop .x light maps) too keep the number of passes down and have bumpmapping or what ever under that , when i get 6-8 lights going at once ill work on a new bumpmap shader and add in ambient light .





@Ninja Matt:
you can get the ait shadow demo here :
http://www.ati.com/developer/sdk/RADEONSDK/Samples/Downloads/RADEONShadowShader.zip
im hopeing the built in stencil buffer have been fixed in dbp 5.8 , so i can scrap what im currently doing and just let the stencil buffer with in the shader sort the shadowing out...

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Try
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Posted: 7th Apr 2005 13:44
Quote: "im hopeing the built in stencil buffer have been fixed in dbp 5.8 , so i can scrap what im currently doing and just let the stencil buffer with in the shader sort the shadowing out... "


It seems that it must work now, but it's way too slow yet!
I hope you continue your shadow shader...(What if Nuclear Glory wouldn't write his collision dll because of DBPro's built in collision detection system?!!!)
Freddix
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 08:22
Evolved, I've downloaded your shader HDR I've found in the forums, and adapted it to use in X-Quad Editor.
You can see result in that post if you want :
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=51979&b=8
Your SHADERS are too good !!! Great job man !

EVOLVED0
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 09:44 Edited at: 8th Apr 2005 09:44
im currently working on a new bump map/parrallx shader but i could do with a normalized cube map .dds texture to get a realy good result, any one know where i can find one ?(looked for ages on the net) there basicly cube maps with vertex colouring on each face and a cross texture looks someing like this.




looks very very nice Freddix hope to see a demo soon ....

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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 10:56
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 11:15
@Ninja Matt
wahoo thx a lot ninja
Try
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 20:29
@Evolved:
There is tool that comes with DirectX SDK, I think you're looking for it!

You can make cube maps very easy

It's name is: DirectX Texture Tool(Look at the image)

Hope this helps!

GOOD LUCK!

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Try
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 20:50 Edited at: 8th Apr 2005 21:26
forgot to say this one(really had to compress them in one .zip, sorry!)

If you are looking at number 5(Actualy your front) then:
You will see number 1 on your right,
Number 2 = your left,
Number 3 = up,
Number 4 = down,
Number 5 = front; didn't I say this one ,
Number 6 = back,


GOOD LUCK!

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Apr 2005 23:45
With regards to combining two shader effects, I seem to be able to combine DBPro's shadows (which now use a shader) with other shader commands. However, I haven't successfully combined any other shader effects. Is this dependent on how the shader is written? Does a shader have to be purposely written to be combined, or is it just the technique that shadow shading uses that allows it to be combined?

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Gedo831
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Posted: 11th Apr 2005 02:53
Ninja Matt's NormalMap22 is cool! And I wanna thank all great shader programers for providing such nice effect files.
When I apply Ninja Matt's NormalMap22 to my object, I noticed that the speculared surface of the model is renderd a bit strange.
As we see in the picture I attached, the highlighted area is rendered in cross strips. I think this is because of that specular map for this shader only has 8 bits for each pixel and it doesn't have enough accuracy for its calculation.
But I know nothing about shader programing (since I started learning DBP in last December..), so I think there must be some way to avoid this problem. So if anyone have any suggestion for this matter, please let me know.
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 11th Apr 2005 03:55 Edited at: 11th Apr 2005 03:58
@Gedo:
Hmm, that does look a bit odd...

I'm not quite sure what's going wrong, since I've never had a problem like that myself. You wouldn't mind sending me the model and textures would you, so I can take a look?

If you'd rather not post here directly, just send me an email or something, and I'll do my best to work out a solution. Hopefully, it's nothing too serious!

Incidentally, do you know if your 3D card works with floating point values when using shaders? Most of the recent ones do, and that should pretty much negate any quantisation or accuracy errors, almost regardless of the colour depth of the input textures.

If I find time tonight, I'll hopefully have a chance to work on another shader that I've been planning for a while. How's an ocean shader (and a long-expected ortho shader)sound?
Cian Rice
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Posted: 11th Apr 2005 05:16
Hi, Evolved when I try to run your Shader It doesn't work, would this be because I only have 5.7 and not 5.8?

EVOLVED0
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Posted: 13th Apr 2005 06:22 Edited at: 13th Apr 2005 06:29
@Anime Blood
what one ?(shader) and dose you GFX card support the shader module that the shader is useing.

quick bumpmap fix for my old bumpmap shader now works for ps1.1 this is still vertex based. but my other shader useing Ninjas cubemap normalizer works great , having issues with specular atm tho.

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