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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / The Ultimate Shader Thread 2.0

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Zealous
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 11:46 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2006 12:55
Well I think I have discovered why were banging our heads against the wall. Unless im mistaken, the problem is, given JUST a normal, we are in a situation like this...



There are a infinte number of possible tangents, all of which will produce a different binormal, all of which will screw up our normal lighting. It just seems like you need more information about the surrounding vertices in order to calculate a accurate tangent.

BUT, all is not lost! I think that this still might work if you can assume that all your polygons are axially alligned (as they are in the case of my terrain). The key is getting a tangent that is PARALLEL to the x axis, then we will get a binormal that is PARALLEL to the z axis. Something more like this...



How exactly you would go about making sure a tangent is parallel to the x axis is beyond me im afraid . Im sure somebody can figure it out! Hopefully before friday, I have to get this damn video made before the weekend

*edit wait... is that even possible? Now that I think about it, some normals would 'break' the tangent... it cant ALWAYS stay parallel to the x axis can it?... TANGENTS ARE THE DEVIL! time for bed

All you need is zeal
Catalyst
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 18:33
Interesting article...love it when terms get confused. So we are looking for a bitangent, not binormal. That's fun, can I blame that for not having it perfect yet?

Anyway, the whole issue of an infinite number of tangents was something that had already occured to me. The thing that I was thinking was that since this is a defined set of axes the tangent would always be facing exactly one direction that could be calculated by a simple 90 degree rotation. You couldn't calculated the other infinity-1 possible tangents this way, only the one we need. Sounds good, right? And I think it will work, I had it working where using a tangent generated in shader would look like bumps from all angles...it did screw with some other things like the light being off, but I think as long as it's bumps on all sides we can transform the light to work properly with this.

One thing I think might be confusing you on getting aligned to the X axis, I think that you're thinking X axis in world space, while that is not the same X axis that we are defining. All of this stuff should just be relative to the vertex normal, so a proper transformation should work regardless of that normal relative to anything else. At least....I think so...

Anyway, back to work, I'll deal with this when I get home.
JulesD
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 20:59
Zealous, will you be posting the shaders up for download. I've been looking for a cloud shader for a long time.
Zealous
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 23:46 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2006 00:06
@Catalyst

Yeah I think youre right again. What im imagining is a fixed axis that follows the normal as it moves (in my mind im thinking an orange with three pencils sticking out, y up, x right, z away). At the start (with a staright up 0,1,0 normal), the 'axis orange' would be alligned perfectly with the normal. So for a flat plain, this would give us a tangent to the right (along the 'u' of the image) and a binormal (aka bitangent) to the 'out' (along the 'v' of the image). THEN, when the normal rotates, you rotate the 'axis orange' (being careful never to TWIST the y axis) along the normal. This should work.

@JulesD

Yeah I should be able to post the cloud shader at least (soon as I clean it up). The terrain shader is a real monster, but ill try and pick apart some of the more important points (like how I was able to FADE the effect out in a radius around the camera). The water shader is just Evolveds water shader modified slightly to 'scroll' with my terrain.

In the meantime if youre curious about my clouds, I suggest you read up on perlin noise. I made a dbpro program that simulates my clouds. You should be able to figure out how to convert it to hlsl (as you can see it runs wayyy to slow in dbpro). Heres the link...

*scroll down aways, I DID eventually get it working ehe
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=66615&b=1

*Edit

I reworked the project so it uses a custom mesh (exactly like my terrain). I really could care less if we can get this to work on all objects (I dont mind using the precalculated tangent when available), just so long as it works on my terrain/quads I would be happy (which will hopefully be easier since all the polys are alligned the same way).

Hit W to view wireframe. The lighting still isnt right, but its getting close...

All you need is zeal

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Catalyst
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 02:15
Okay, so I'm still at work and can't test this, but I just had a bit of a crazy idea. Why even bother calculating a tangent? Can we just swizzle the values? Like, mov r1.yxzw, v3.xyzw...something like that, just flip which axis the value is on. Seems like that would rotate the normal into a tangent without even needing to do additional maths. Too crazy?
Zealous
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 02:40 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2006 03:28
testing that now

*Edit

Well, while it SEEMS to work on the flat quad, I cant get it to work on my curved terrain. nor does it work on the cube (some sides still pop in and out). Ive tryed tangent = normal.yzx and tangent = normal.yxz, no go.

All you need is zeal
Catalyst
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 05:58
Okay, I didn't spend much time on this tonight, nor will I for a have much time over the next few day because of work and trying to get a bit of stuff done on the AI for my game. But, I did play with a different way of calculating the bitangent instead of doing cross product tangent and normal...even though if the tangent was working properly that would be the way to do it. Didn't fix the bump/dent issue, but it did fix the problem with the top and bottom of the cube not being lit properly. They used to be either fully lit or fully dark, now they respond smoothly to light.

One thing I started thinking about. The bumps aren't really becoming dents. They're just not reacting to moving light, they stay bumped as if the light source was always in the same place. Maybe the problem is that it should react to the camera...or something. I don't know, my head hurts, had too many other things going on and my AI has been being mean to me.

This weekend maybe I put some time in on this.
Zealous
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 06:19
Wait.. wait.. I think maybe I got it. The whole swizzle thing seems to be working after all.. maybe it was an error on my terrain... confirmation to come shortly...

All you need is zeal
Zealous
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 06:27


CATALYST YOURE A FRICKN GENIUS! Swizzles ftw! Heres the final formula...

float3 normal = IN.normal;

float3 tangent = normal.yzx;

float3 binormal = normalize( cross(tangent, normal) );

All you need is zeal
Catalyst
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 07:48
Wow, I guess I picked the perfect time to take a break from it. Are we completely certain that it works this time? Looks great...crate terrain looks pretty neat.

Are we ready to see the full terrain in action with sky?
Zealous
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 08:41
Yes were sure. The screen was taken with a directional light (sun), and I even got a point light working too. Works perfect with one or the other, but im trying to figure out how to combine them, I dont have much experience with multiple lights, shouldnt be too hard.

Video should be ready by late tomorrow.

All you need is zeal
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 13:58
Nice to see you got it working this well! Sorry I didn't offer much help - the whole binormal/tangent thing had me lost.

I've finally got around to installing FX Composer on my new machine, so I'll be sure to try my hand at sometime soon, although probably not as complex as a terrain shader!
Catalyst
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 18:23
I figured out a way to do something that had Ninja Matt lost? Wow, that's going straight to my head....until I remember that I can't write any shader like the ones he's done. Which I've already remembered.

@Zealous
Multiple lights shouldn't present you with much trouble, I'm sure you'll get it quickly. A little thing that *might* make the performance better, since swizzling doesn't really need to perform any math you might want to try swizzling to get the binormal rather than calculating a normalized cross product. Same way we got the tangent to work from the normal, only swizzled a bit differently. Doubt it would make much difference performance-wise, but since this is a terrain shader and applied to a very big area, those little things might add up. Or they might just be like the cel shader that's been confusing me, where getting the same thing done in less math results in worse performance...
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 23:47
Has anyone yet come up with a powerful shadow/lighing plugin with DBP command code and the same for normal maps, thats all I need


"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Zeal
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 02:23 Edited at: 4th Feb 2006 03:26
Uploading now...

*Edit

Here she is. Thanks again to everyone for all your help!

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=70938&b=1&p=0

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Catalyst
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 06:43
@Seppuku Arts
Quote: "Has anyone yet come up with a powerful shadow/lighing plugin"


How do you mean? Like a shader for "powerful" lighting? What would you need it to do differently from other lighting?

Quote: "and the same for normal maps"


Normal map shaders are in this thread, look near the beginning and you'll find several versions of Ninja Matt's normal map shaders. Zeal is also finishing up on a terrain shader using normal mapping and all sorts of fun stuff, so you might want to ask him for more info and permission to use it.

@Zeal
Downloading the video now....saw in the other thread you are looking for some mirroring. Let me know if you still need that, I'll host it for you.
Olby
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 13:00
Hey guys what is the difference between the Ninja Matt's simple Normal Map shader and Zeal's Terrain Normal Mapping Shader? Does the speed only differs or there are many other changes made to the core of the shader it self?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 13:11
Quote: "
How do you mean? Like a shader for "powerful" lighting? What would you need it to do differently from other lighting?"

I'm really refering to the shadow shader, something better than the one that comes with DBP, the same sort of shadow shader you would find in Age of Empires 3.

Quote: "Normal map shaders are in this thread, look near the beginning and you'll find several versions of Ninja Matt's normal map shaders. Zeal is also finishing up on a terrain shader using normal mapping and all sorts of fun stuff, so you might want to ask him for more info and permission to use it."

K kewl, I tend to 3D model my terrians, so for me a normal mapped terrian is not something I'd use, but looks kewl from what Zeal is showing


"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 14:38
I have another question dudes.

I've been using evolved's HDR shader, plus the water and grass shaders, but found everything to bright, when I put the brightness down, the blur goes away (as you can see in the main screen) the image in the top left hand corner is the look I want to use, how would I go about using that image as a full screen, I've tried make the image the size of the screen (didn't like it) tried applying the image to the HDRCamnum camera (No HDR effects) tried setting the HDRcamnum+1 as the main camera (No HDR effects) I can't think of anything else that will work.




"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 01:29
@Seppuku .
is this the sort of thing that u want? . download >>

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 01:52
Sweet dude, tested it, looks kewl, but will look at it properly tomorrow, its almost 1am lol yawn ...


"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Math89
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 13:32 Edited at: 5th Feb 2006 13:34
the Screen.fx shader doesn't work, I can't see the the bloom object. I've got a GeForce FX 5700 LE. Without this shader, it's just... great .
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 20:29 Edited at: 5th Feb 2006 20:30
@Math89
duno whats causing this but Screen.fx dose not use any pixel shader so try this (Seppuku you may also want to try, the blur effect is a bit better) - downlaod >>>>

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 21:29
sweet, but I'm gonna have to try later, I kinda half lied with what I said last night, I haven't looked at it, spent today tidying up code and making media and tutorial lol


"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Math89
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Posted: 5th Feb 2006 21:49 Edited at: 5th Feb 2006 21:49
It works now, it's really good.
abe
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 23:17
hi,
concerning about:
- Cartoon w/Outline Shader - A Cartoon Shading Shader
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=28992&b=1&p=6

how i do to change the outline color and thickness?

opening the file fx in fxcomposer,ok!
but I don't know in which parameter I change the values for both!

thanks!
abe
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 23:34
hi,
concerning about

- Cartoon w/Outline Shader - A Cartoon Shading Shader
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=28992&b=1&p=6

how and where I do to change the values for outline color and thickness?
dark coder
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 07:56 Edited at: 7th Feb 2006 13:41
hey evolved, ive been trying to implement your water shader into my game but it doesnt allways work from different positions, so if its not to difficult could you possibly make a shader that distorts anything behind it? cause i have a duplicated scene under my water but its really needs to me distorted like water so it can pass as a reflection, thanks anyways.

Halowed are the ori.
Catalyst
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 08:11 Edited at: 7th Feb 2006 08:13
@adr


I've added a float constant to that shader, now just use set shader constant float to whatever value you feel like. That will control the thickness of the stroke, but not the colour. As for colour, I don't know. I looked at that shader and all the values refferring to the diffuse colour of the stroke had no effect. I'll look again at some point, but at least you can control thickness for now.

EDIT: I guess it might be useful if I actually pointed out which constant it was....maybe. Anyway, it's S. Just say set shader constant float "S", or however the that command works...don't remember the exact syntax off hand. Try around 2 or 3 at first, but depending on your model that might be too high/low.
abe
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 13:43
first apologize by the double post

second Catalyst thanks!
I don't understand anything of shader
and everything that I do is based in the tutorials

I would like to study this shader
you or someone knows some book or tutorial that teaches
this shader parameters?
EVOLVED0
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 15:28
@dark coder
To get a decent water effect (say hl2) we`ll need to do clipping planes and I dont think dbp can do this , untill we can the water effects will be pretty primitive . Then its just a case of doing Fresnel reflections and refractions (btw this sort of effect will most likey run like crap in dbp ). Ati has a grate water demo which I think is useing clipping planes check it out > http://www2.ati.com/misc/demos/ATI-8500-Nature-Demo-v1.1.exe
abe
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Posted: 8th Feb 2006 04:09
Catalyst

and this:
it is possible to include just the outline and thickness adjustment code that you explained me,
in this shader:

Neophyte's Second Tutorial
THE FX FILE FORMAT - PART TWO - CARTOON SHADING IN DBPRO
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=49137&b=1

edge.bmp effect is interesting but it isn't an outline
I would like to mix outline with edge.bmp and shade.bmp

thanks!
Catalyst
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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 17:44
@Abe

What's the point? The edge.bmp is trying to do an outline, just does it badly and it does it by texturing areas that are at extreme angles. So it cuts in on your model. It's only really good on high poly very rounded objects.

This shader of PrestonC's that I added the adjustment code to uses the shade.bmp the exact same way...in fact, the two shaders are pretty much step for step identical (One in HLSL and one in ASM of course). The only difference is the DBPro cel shader chose to do the edge.bmp texture to give an outline and PrestonC extrudeds the vertices along their normals and flips geometry to make an outline. If you mix them you're just going to get the nice stroke with a bad blockyness on the inside.
SirFire
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Posted: 15th Feb 2006 22:49
I can't get any of these shaders to work. It looks to me like they are all written for ps2.0 and vs2.0, most people don't have advanced cards like that, can someone post a reflection water shader that works with ATI Raydeon 9000?

My cards supports shaders, yet I have not been able to get a single one to work

Chris K
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Posted: 16th Feb 2006 12:34
Hmm... I'd say most people probably do have PS 2.0 by now.

Grandma
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Posted: 16th Feb 2006 17:44
I bought my over three years ago. It has PS 2.0.
But then again....i sold my family to evil slavers.

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I have no money, I have no skills. All of the hot hot elvin women are dancing with the big warrior guys. It's college all over again."
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2006 09:44 Edited at: 6th Mar 2006 22:45
I'm having 2 problems with the water and cloud shaders.

I doubt zeal is going to share ALL his secrets about combining the sky and water shaders...so I'm going to try to figure them out on my own...with help



1. The sky shader is rendered onto a dome, and for some reason it acts like the zdepth is disabled and draws itself over SOME objects, but not all. See how the sky draws itself over the box but not over the level in the top picture? How do I draw my sky behind everything? Do I need to fiddle with these lines in the shader: ?

I tried changing them and it didn't seem to work.

2. In the bottom pic you can see that the gun is reflected into the water. Because it's locked on the second reflecting camera draws it too. Any ideas on how to fix this? I probably can't pass the object into the shader...

QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 6th Mar 2006 22:47
Page 3!? This thread can't die! It's so wonderful!

david w
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 03:36
@quoththeraven I had that same problem with that shader. I noticed that It always wanted to draw over alot of objects, the only way that I can see to use that shader is to have no non-shaded objects, so If you wish to use that, then it appears you must have all 3d objects shader, in some form or another.
greenlig
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 07:17
I've just started using some of the shaders on this thread and they are amazing! Are any of the developers still churning out shaders or is this thread dead?

Greenlig

Aust. Convention...get there!! http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=38799&b=2&p=1
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 07:25
AHA!

I figured out how to make the shader draw itself correctly, as in behind all objects!

Updated Dynamic Cloud Shader:


I messed around with most of the variables with "Z" in their name, since obviously this is a ZBuffer issue. Turns out all you have to do is change ZENABLE to true, and remove the line ZFUNC = ALWAYS;

Violin! It works.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 21:49
Evolved, can I use that water shader?


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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 10th Mar 2006 22:30
Can anyone make me a water shader please that's ps 1.3 my ati won't support 2.0

Classic Evil
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I can think of a perfectly good excuse

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 13th Mar 2006 22:03
Well unless I find a way to make the water shader exclude certain objects in the reflection then sadly I cannot use it.

Unless the next DBP update brings commands which allow me to lock an object on to only a certain camera...

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 18:24
The current glow shader is great, but is there any way of only glowing certain objects?


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Morcilla
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:00 Edited at: 16th Mar 2006 18:02
I've read that even FarCry HDR shader works full-screen. So it affects all objects in the scene not only for us, but for the very gurus with their own engine and shaders.

There is a theorical approach, but it can be sometimes hard to achieve:

1 - position ONLY the object desired to have the HDR/glow and the camera,with a black (or white) background, and hide other objects.

2 - Apply the effect (calculate hdr at that time, with nothing else on the screen).

3 - Position and show the rest of the objects and sync.

I haven't tested it, but good luck. Please post any results.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 14:04
I've been looking at the water shader by EVOLVED and came up with a theory on how to get a refraction effect, but haven't been able to get it to work with my current knowledge with DBP, so I am going to post my theory to see if other people can get it to work, if no one can, then my theory is wrong.

Firstly; Anyone who has looked at the code, you will know that the reflection is a texture made from a camera that is distorted by the shader and is semi transparent giving the water like effect.

For refraction, I thought maybe if the camera faces the opposite direction recording the data of the underwater part and textures the object what it sees on top, it would has 100% opacity and would be beneath the original water object.

I almost got it to work by making the camera point 'x' and 90 degrees, it appeared to show the bottom, but it didn't work with the camera movement too well

Essence
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 14:07
Thats almost true.. But there's a BUT

If you rotate the camera in a wrong direction (e.g. move directly down and y-rotate 180) then the reflection isnt good anymore.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 14:15
nah figures, no wonder I couldn't get it to work, too bad guess we'll have to wait to a shader that is fully compatible that does all the works...

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