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AppGameKit Chat / AGK Studio

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 20:04 Edited at: 10th Feb 2019 20:06
I wouldnt say struggling - that is in a way putting TGC down.

I think a better phrase would be "Trying to find the right product that would work and indeed does work...."
psychoanima
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 20:59 Edited at: 10th Feb 2019 21:00
Marketing will be a crucial point for the next AppGameKit release. And it will depend on community as well. Type "AppGameKit tutorial" on YouTube then do the same for "Godot tutorial" and you will see what I mean.

AppGameKit script is so easy to learn and fun to use. I start using it because I got sick from drag and drop software where I had no idea what is happening in the background and I had to follow sometimes weird engineer's logic (Clickteam fusion is a good example of that). C++ and C# were no - no for me, same with Python, except GML maybe.

I think that coding is fun should be moto for the next installment of AGK. If experienced AppGameKit community confirms that with their own exciting projects and showcases, especially when Vulkan arrive, there is a bright future for all of us, including stable support and new features that TGC can fund and update without outsourcing them. Because honestly, it's not the company homepage that is selling the product, but good words and showcases from people who are already using that product.
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:16 Edited at: 10th Feb 2019 21:28
Quote: "I wouldnt say struggling - that is in a way putting TGC down.

I think a better phrase would be "Trying to find the right product that would work and indeed does work....""


Maybe it sound hard but it really looks like it.. 1001 ways trying to sell something. bundle this,bundle there, lets mix this with that, steam says it all. by no means am i trying to put them down, am just pointing out the obvious.
The right product\desicion was to go mobile or else it wouldnt have had a chance to survive, something others didnt do and are now living zombies. But to concentrate on only coders is exactly why AppGameKit dosnt grow and exactly why unity\unreal are so strong.
we all get it, TGC dosnt have the man power but lets face it,you have to be atractive for both sides, hardcore coders and also artists. The sooner they realize that,the better or they will keep going from product y to x and none of them will bring them the success they deserve.

Quote: "I think that coding is fun should be moto for the next installment of AGK. If experienced AppGameKit community confirms that with their own exciting projects and showcases, especially when Vulkan arrive, there is a bright future for all of us, including stable support and new features that TGC can fund and update without outsourcing them. Because honestly, it's not the company homepage that is selling the product, but good words and showcases from people who are already using that product.
"


What i like about unity\unreal\godot is that i, as a non-coder and a no-coder wannabe, can go into unity and start making levels and even buy scripts and things to easy play my levels. So i get to dive in what i want to dive and later,depending on my need, i can look for a coder to make a game.
AGK dosnt give you that choice, its code or die,...fine by me but exactly that is its downfall. its not atractive for the masses. BASIC together with mobile, a powerfull combo, if it would offer the right tools, not just for coders. Thats what i believe... GODOT got it right btw and i predict it is\will soon become the next Blender but for games and a serious competitor to unity.
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:25 Edited at: 10th Feb 2019 21:26
Unity / Unreal is so sttrong because its free to download to all and free

but if want to go out to market places and sell our products - then a yearly subscription fee is required - thats where they rake in the money

Have a think TGC on this misconception idea.

Everyone is doing a subscription based packages these days.

Thats where the money comes in for companies these days

TGC is failing because of a one time long term fee and now struggling that way

puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:29
Would we all be happy to say pay £500 a year subscription to TGC for the use of AppGameKit Studio... this just equates to nothing really.

Come on people - the products are been a one time off payment and still moan that things go wrong or arent rght.

Come on - Give them a break.....

Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:40
Am not trying to argue your comments but i have to strongly disagree with you.
AGK dosnt have enough marketshare to make it atractive for people to subscribe.
It just offers too little and again, only concentrate on coders wich i believe arent the bigger ones.

As of right now, if AppGameKit go subscription, it would just accelarate its falling.
wasnt it so that GameGuru (wich i believe is garbage for kids) had a bigger succeess just because you could visually work?
AHAAA !!!
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:42
Bud - so much negativity...

Be proud of what they trying to acheive.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:45
I paid 70 ish quid ONCE and still going - having updates with no means of having to pay nothing more than that £70 for life.


Now, how would you feel you would make money for a company that way !!
puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:55
Subscription based on developers going to market is the way to go TGC - whether it been £5 a month or what ever.

Please give us old foges a discount though.

But my opinion, thats best way for you to go for making money for future development works....

Up to you TGC
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 21:58
Bro, is not negativity,its reality. am old enough to speak clear and direct without sugarcoating things.
i was one of those who loved the idea of BASIC (easy,human lenguage) and Mobile!! and am happy they still here.
but if this community dosnt adress the points of why no product goes up then you all will lose. they in money and you in updates.

feelings aside, i myself started i believe in 2001 with darkBASIC classic as a 16 years old boy and quicky realised coding is not for me and
exactly there is where they stopped making money from me. This is what i am adressing,from lee bamber to TGC to whatever, that tactic brought them nothing.
because its not a complete solution but rather a solution for coders wich btw is topped by any other engine out-there. simple as that, no means to hurt nobodys feelings
the sooner everyone realize that we arent in 2001 and people expect more for their money,the sooner AppGameKit will have the success for what they so long fought

peace!
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 22:02
peace indeed - we all have opinions and my strongest opionions in is helping TGC keep carrying on

They have produced a fantastic product Tier 1 and 2 - ok the others are not been well - they trying to hard perhaps...

Look at this been an extreme excellent forward for them
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 22:13
We all want the same i believe and its important we voice it out. opinions are different and how you well said, its up to TGC to decide.
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fubarpk
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Posted: 10th Feb 2019 22:33
Quote: "Above all I want TGC and AppGameKit to survive long term"


if it means we have to have a new interface that gives us the option of different engines (vulkan to start)
that's got to be a good thing to help AppGameKit survive, maybe not all of us want the benefits of vulkan but if its
going to give us the option of supporting AppGameKit Classic that's still got to be a good thing. And they have already
committed themselves to ongoing support of AppGameKit classic so if theres a major problem im sure TGC will
work through the problems and repair them as necessary. Unfortunately some of the older systems may not
be ready to support vulkan but TGC i beleive are trying to stay with the times and bring us more uptodate
software that should allow its lifespan to be better. Im sure there will be alsorts of teething issues as these
cant be predicted but in the past TGC have fixed bugs promptly, I beleive Paul does a wonderful job at updates.







fubar
psychoanima
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 00:04 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 00:06
It's just the matter of time when TGC will have their own assetstore, similar like unity, where you will be able to find assets, third party plugins, sound fx, etc. and I would support that idea. I believe that even now TGC is earning more money by selling asset packs than software.

Subscription would be a really bad idea, simply because AppGameKit is not that strong on the market to demand such type of payment. Everyone would migrate and look for a free solution. They have to find a good model which will be their (primary?) funding source, either trough asset store, training videos, and god help us all - not dlc's such as visual editor. By looking what competitors are doing, being a copycat in this field is not such a bad idea.
smallg
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 10:00
Quote: "It's just the matter of time when TGC will have their own assetstore, similar like unity, where you will be able to find assets, third party plugins, sound fx, etc. and I would support that idea. I believe that even now TGC is earning more money by selling asset packs than software. "

They had one which was mostly aimed at Game Guru but does also support agk and they sold it because it wasn't worth the hassle (though it still is a store aimed at Game Guru which you can find from there)

TGC have had the same approach to their business for many years now and they are still going, I don't think anything will change in that respect, if you don't want to buy AppGameKit studio because you don't like the lack of visual editor you can use one of the many other engines, it's never going to be able to compete with the likes of unity anyway... Just look at game Guru itself which is getting developed purely as a visual editor and is nowhere near reaching the same potential (not putting game Guru or the work done by Lee and the community down, it's just a task that will take many years) p.s. the game Guru (or FPS reloaded as it was known back then) kick starter failed and game Guru itself sells probably as much as AppGameKit, so saying that the money is in a visual editor is perhaps a bit of a stretch when it comes to TGC user base and they definitely have enough products of enough types to know what is in demand and viable for them.
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Ortu
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 13:05 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 13:15
To be honest, they had an asset store and many paid plugins during the dbpro era, and in my opinion they put too strong a focus on selling assets and plugins which ended up stifling the advancement and maintenance of the language itself which in turn led to an increasingly shrinking userbase over time as the core product failed to keep pace with competitors.

If they can learn from that and strike a balance between offering quality assets while not neglecting the core language, great, but you also have to consider that to feed a store with quality assets, you have to attract skilled artists which this community has always had a shortage of compared to its skilled technical base. To attract skilled artists, particularly in terms of 3d, your engine has to support modern graphics standards. Vulkan is a good step in that direction, as would be PBR availability.

The biggest hill that they have always had and continue to face though is a shortage of well known and visually compelling showcase projects.

But at the end of the day, they really can't compete head to head with unity or unreal, the more they try to emulate them with visual editors, asset stores, and so on, the more directly they attempt to compete head on. They need a niche or a specialty to stand out in a direct comparison. Thier which and easy code first focus has historically provided that. So it had to be asked with Studio, are they leaving a niche or expanding it? That will really determine its success or not.

And frankly I've tried unity, twice, and hated it both times. I love code, I code at work, I code at home. I don't like wrapping everything up into ready made systems through visual editing. The more agk moves in that direction as the primary workflow and focus the less I will enjoy it.
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Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 14:20 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 14:22
Visual editors is what make artists buy your products and stay. they dont buy it to code or atleast not in a serious manner.
Visual editors is where most kids begin,from modding or testing their blender assets.

I fully agree that for many engines the time is gone, blitz3d,darkbasic,3dgamestudio but AppGameKit is aimed at mobile games and in fact dosnt really need to compete head to head with the bigger ones,
it just need to offer tools for diferrent aspects and in that way attract not only coders + keep developing it and not always start new,like mark sibly from blitz3d.

I believe this is what has been a major problem,be it in blitz,dbpro or agk now. Look at the 2d editor of godot or Gamemaker, am not into 2d but i believe atleast that should have been inside and further developed with time.
I have no problem with AppGameKit staying a code-only app but it seems that hasnt worked very well and i believe my points are very valid. not everyone want to reinvent the wheel to move a cube but if TGC believe so then am afraid their products will keep under the line.
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GaborD
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 14:27 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 14:33
Quote: "To attract skilled artists, particularly in terms of 3d, your engine has to support modern graphics standards. Vulkan is a good step in that direction, as would be PBR availability.

The biggest hill that they have always had and continue to face though is a shortage of well known and visually compelling showcase projects.

But at the end of the day, they really can't compete head to head with unity or unreal, the more they try to emulate them with visual editors, asset stores, and so on, the more directly they attempt to compete head on. They need a niche or a specialty to stand out in a direct comparison. Thier which and easy code first focus has historically provided that. So it had to be asked with Studio, are they leaving a niche or expanding it? That will really determine its success or not."


I agree to staying in the niche and keeping the USP being the better approach than going head to head with the big guys. But I admit I have no market info on how big or viable the niche is.
As it stands, Studio is still comfortably in there, you can load your AppGameKit projects, still have your code based approach and will get additional ease of life tools.
From what I have seen so far nothing indicates you have to use the new tools or scene editor, you can keep your current workflows if you choose to. It's still code based AppGameKit at it's core.

As to PBR, AppGameKit can fully handle modern rendering, it just takes some effort because it doesn't come ready to use.
But that is kinda also part of the staying in the niche thing. You can't do PBR without an integrated editor that people would be forced to use, because PBR is much more about data generation than about shaders.
So in order to keep the old workflows, PBR would have to be additional and optional.
In any case, just to start off with some user showcase stuff: Attached some Studio PBR test shots. Just quick test scenes, don't judge too harshly. The speed AppGameKit achieves is really good, above what ready-built solutions usually offer because we have full code side control of the entire render chain and no bloat. (running on upper midrange, GTX 1070)

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Santman
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 16:54 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 16:58
Rik, thanks very much for all your replies.

I for one thinkn the price is pennies, so the price isn;t bothering me - the crucial fact was that AppGameKit code ran on it. I compeltely understand the need to evolve and that that costs money.

I would like to point out to everyone commenting however that just moving to Vulcan isn;t going to suddenly mean everyone can design and build Doom (lovely shots Garbor but let's be honest, game's that use assets like that cost tens of thousands and that's not really AGK's market and I hate to say it....but I don't buy that's AppGameKit in realtime, the shadows are beyond anything I've seen AppGameKit do....video would be nice )....the coding of apps will still be crucial, though it is a nice idea that mobile apps in partcular will be more power efficient.

Rik.....ist here any chance at some stage to allow threading and background loading (specifically texture streaming)? A few of us got a makeshift version using memblocks, but that's the holly grail for AI and large worlds.
psychoanima
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 17:52
We have to point out here that AppGameKit with Studio version wants to compete on desktop market and not only mobile. Also, I can't talk in numbers but I believe that majority of people are using 2D capabilities of AppGameKit and not 3D. I am supporting all this 3D idea about Vulkan but Studio version really need to have 3D scene editor, and probably basic material editor when it comes to PBR. Otherwise, me personally at least, I couldn't stand all that repetitive compiling and building the project just to see how light, texture and object manipulation are affecting the scene I am building.

And yes, there should be a tremendous change in terms of shaders. Programming in AppGameKit with Basic is one thing, but dealing with vertex and fragment shaders in C++ is completely another universe. You can't work without them and many of us cannot, because the lack of knowledge, and for that matter I think that they should be more accessible and easy to use for non-shader gurus.
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 18:05 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 18:55
Personally I don't think AppGameKit being programmer-oriented is the big issue. Look at Love2D, SFML, Heaps.io, HaxeFlixel and many others including Cerberus X (no idea how popular that is but seems to be alive still anyway).

Clearly there is interest in programming-oriented "engines". So the question is more of why are such people using all of these various other programming-oriented "engines" instead of using AppGameKit?

I will throw out a few things I think "off the top of my head". Not saying they are absolutely the reasons. They are just my views.

1. The name AppGameKit is completely inaccurate in describing what it actually is. The name implies some kind of visual drag n drop editor for making only mobile games imo. In fact this is why I skipped over it for years.

2. Most other programming-oriented languages while focusing on creating games through typing in code in a text editor still provide very easy ways to work with data provided by visual tools such as map editors, 3D modeling software etc. This middleware layer is very important and very attractive to many people. Things such as Tiled have existed for many years perhaps decades. Same for Blender. Developers expect to be able to easily use such tools to design levels and so forth. Not to have to write everything themselves. Sure they love programming but they know if they want to make a good game they also need to value efficiency which means not writing every single thing themselves. Certainly if they do need to write it themselves there are examples showing exactly the code to use for easily working with the data.

3. No example / showcase games announcing "written completely in object oriented C++, C#, etc". For most programmers in this day oop is what they are interested in. I personally like "flat" programming model but that is not how the majority of modern programmers feel.

So I think it is these 3 things that have been and continue to be the greatest weaknesses of AppGameKit. And until they (at least one or two of them) are addressed it just isn't going to appeal to the bulk of programmers out there.

Again... I don't understand so much the need to have a visual scene editor integrated into the product itself as I do the need to have an api built-in to handle easily working with the data produced by the most common level building tools that already exist. Support the tools people are already familiar with and using instead of creating another proprietary built-in tool.
Zigi
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 20:39 Edited at: 11th Feb 2019 21:16
Quote: "Personally I don't think AppGameKit being programmer-oriented is the big issue."

AGK is the most simple way to get in to game programming if someone interested but sooner or later you do want to use a level editor and this is the turning point for many. Most people don't want to reinvent the wheel and they go with engines that already have a level editor.
I understand many DBP and AppGameKit fun don't want AppGameKit to become Unity, Godot or GameMaker Studio. And I totally agree with that. But what AGKS could do and I hope going to do is include the level editor but make it optional and easy to use. How would that look like?
The level editor in AGKS could save the level data in to a single file, a custom format that AGKS can read instead of generating AppGameKit code like they did with Visual Editor.
And then once we have this level data, we can go ahead and load it with a single command.

level = LoadLevel("level_file")

And then in order to get objects/sprites from the level data we could pick them by name.

sprite = GetSpriteFrom(levelID, "sprite_name")

Get properties of sprites

sprite.Width
sprite.Height
sprite.Scale
sprite.X
sprtie.Y

Get all the instances of a sprite in an array

spriteInstances[] = GetSpriteInstancesFrom(levelID, "sprite_name")

Get layer by name

layer = GetLayer("layer_name")

Get all sprite on a specific layer

sprites[] = GetSpriteInstancesOn(layerID)

Get specific instances of sprite from layer by name

sprites[] = GetSPriteInstancesOn(layerID, "sprite_name")

and so on. It doesn't need to be fully integrated like in Unity, Game Maker Studio and others, but can be done like I explained above. I hope the level editor in AGKS going to be like this and then, artist will be happy because it is going to be easy to get levels up and running in AGKS, takes a single command only and tool makers will be also happy because they don't need to deal with the level editor if they don't want to and scripters like me going to be happy too because it is going to be easy to work with the level data. Everyone wins.

Quote: "So the question is more of why are such people using all of these various other programming-oriented "engines" instead of using AppGameKit?"

Other frameworks are using more popular and more powerful languages like JavaScript, Java, C#. We can code C++ in AppGameKit but it is the other end of the line. C++ is better to get something done from scratch but when it comes to coding, scripting gameplay C++ is overkill and BASIC is fun and super easy to use but can be limited. I personally find C# the golden middle road between a simple and easy to use yet powerful and flexible language.

If C# then the biggest competitor of AppGameKit among frameworks is MonoGame in my opinion. MonoGame has the advantage it is written in C#, completely open-source so you can go, change anything use any of the C# libraries available and compile it your self, no royalties, hidden costs, EULA to agree to. It all yours written in the very same language you use to create gameplay. And the engine is super easy to code actually. When I started a button on my controller did not work so I just opened up the source, searched for the Input class, found the part responsible for handling controllers, added a few line of code to map the button I had and I got my controller working. This is with minimal C# knowledge, only scratching the surface. This is the power of open-source.

Also the lead developer of MonoGame Tom Spilman, actually running it own game company called Sickhead Games and his company is using MonoGame to develop cross-platform games. As a result, MonoGame can target every platform exist on the planet you also have complete control over any aspect of the engine. So if you want to code and only code, MonoGame is pretty much the best option out there.

Do you also like Broadcasting in AppGameKit Tier1? Xamarin also got a similar Player for mobile that you can use to preview your game over wifi on the actual device but you can also just connect the device and run preview in Visual Studio.
Speaking of Visual Studio, the best IDE ever, Yes can be bloated, a bit slow at times but nothing beat the coding experience in Visual Studio.

This is what AppGameKit need to compete with if we consider it a coding only solution without a built-in level editor.

With a built-in level editor though they need to compete with GameMaker Studio, Unity, Godot, Unreal and tons of others so it is not much more comforting. As I mentioned, the gaming industry become extremely competitive. The only area that is not so crowded is the tools targeting beginners and no coders.
TGC doing a great job with AppGameKit Tier1 to target people new to programming but after people get started with BASIC, sooner or later going to get in to the other more powerful languages and tools available for those languages and AppGameKit has noting to offer at the moment to make those people come back because once you start using a level editor, you just don't go back to a code only tool unless you want to make your own level editor. But I would guess 99.9% of people don't want to code their level editors from scratch when there are solution out there like Unity, Godot..etc. But even those 0.1% who do want to, I'm wondering how many of that actually want to code and editor in BASIC when you can fire up Windows Forms or WPF and come up with something in no time (using C#)?

If AGKS going to have a proper level editor, then some of those people go adventure out and try Unity and others might come back because they already know BASIC, it is easy, fast and with a level editor they have no reason to leave AGK. Without a level editor people have all the reason to leave AppGameKit and to never come back.

So I think what AGKS need to be focusing on is not to make people switch from Unity to AGKS but to make people stay with AGKS once they get started. The only way to do that is to offer more ways to develop your games which brings me back to may original suggestions which was to make AGKS the single tool for everyone:
1. Programmers by making visual editor optional
2. Scripters by including a visual editor and content management that easy to work with, easy to code
3. No coders by including ready scripted assets that we can use to make games with drag 'n drop similar to GameGuru and offer more in forms of paid and free Asset packages.

This is the only future of TGC and AGKS in my opinion because TGC were developing easy game makers for decades. Only need to bring them all together in to a single tool and I don't personally know any other tool offer all 3 on cross platform at the moment. Yes there are solutions for Unity, Unreal but TGC does programming and no coding better. Need to take advantage of that and also add a scripting solution to the mix with a level editor and make everybody happy.
If TGC decide to also drop C# in to the mix it could make even more likely people decide to stick with AGKS once they get started with game making using AGKS.
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2019 21:25 Edited at: 12th Feb 2019 04:16
@Zigi I agree with a lot of what you wrote and basically I think we are seeing the same things. Yes Monogame is still popular and again it will appeal to many programmers because like you said people can use C#. This means they will be doing the object oriented programming most programmers want to do and it also means people will be able to learn and use oop and C# which gains them additional experience to help them get a job. I know with Unity many young people use it because it is a fun way to learn C# and oop which they value to help get a job after graduation.

This part....
Quote: "With a built-in level editor though they need to compete with GameMaker Studio, Unity, Godot, Unreal and tons of others so it is not much more comforting."


That's why I think a good middle ground would be to simply have an api that works exactly like you described only it works on Tiled map data for 2D and Blender file for 3D. This way it is not trying to directly compete with the likes of Unity and instead is using the exact same tools that programmers using other programmer-oriented frameworks are used to working with while also allowing artists (and non-artists as well) to easily design their levels in Tiled and Blender.

EDIT: I should add I am not against them creating their own VERY GOOD custom scene editor that is easy to work wiith. It is just that like you said it will be compared to the others almost certainly, probably be more work than supporting existing tools and I would guess that many of the people using the other programming-oriented options are probably in part doing so exactly because they don't like things the Unity scene editor. I suppose it really comes down to who are they making this for. I think most of us would just be happy if there was some GOOD & SIMPLE solution for this aspect of development in whatever form.
RickV
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 08:31
Hi Guys,

I'm an enjoying the various ideas discussed in this thread and taking note of the needs and wants of everyone. It's clear that you are all very well aware of the business models of game engines these days. It's a tough market with some huge players (mainly funded by successful games or venture capital). We're a small private company that have to carefully manage how we run our business. TGC is about to hit 20 years of business in March and that makes me proud that we have worked hard and managed ourselves through the highs and lows of business life. We've not had the runaway success of some of our fellow competitors but we've also not hit rock bottom, crash and burned. AppGameKit is probably our more successful product and we are continuing to invest in its future.

You know we use it to power our Driving Test Apps and because of that it's been improved in many areas and helped the driving apps stand out amongst the crowd of competing driving apps. Together with a strong community I'm hopefully we can keep improving and expanding AppGameKit.

For now we need to focus on the current plan of developing the Studio Editor and the Vulkan graphics engine. You will see in the weeks and months to come how these elements will take shape. This is the exciting time as new toys take shape and can be used.

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DavidAGK
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 09:09
For me personally what attracted me to AppGameKit was that is was a BASIC coding platform that would give me 100% control. Any kind of drag and drop would have been of no I nterest to me. Just me, but guessing I’m not the only one.
Using Tier 1 AppGameKit V2
Started coding with AMOS (Thanks Francois Lionet)
Kevin Cross
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 11:30
I for one would be happy to pay subscriptions. I know that isn't where TGC are going, but I've always been surprised that it's still being developed (and monthly releases) with the one time payment. I'm looking forward to the news when Studio is ready to sign up and pay for. Somewhat disappointed that I get it at a discounted price though.
OryUI - A WIP AGK2 UI Framework
puzzler2018
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 11:46
I'll wait till its well on its way to greatness after lots of testing and so forth.. May get it for a Xmas present to myself when it's well and ready to go.

It may help me relive the good olden days when we bought AMOS professional with the great manual and first opened the box and get started with our first few lines of code.

Some greatest memories
gerdich
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 15:33
I don't understand why the delphi interface has been stopped. It could be the #1 feature today.
c0d3r9
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 15:58
@DavidAGK: in short, me too.I love coding ... if i need an drag and drop engine i could use some others.But optional as a feature its okay.
But i let surprise me what happens this week and the next month.
I buyed the visual editor -> not really used....
psychoanima
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 16:24
I think that some people are confusing drag and drop feature (visual scene editor) with visual coding.

For me drag and drop would be, having an option to move visually the assets from library into scene and re-position them visually. To enter/code starting coordinates for every asset is a time consuming process because it's asking to rebuild your project over and over and over again until you hit the position you want in your scene. If you put in count 3D asset where you have to enter depth as well (that is standing against custom focal length of your camera) - it's a super tedious and frustrating process. With visual editor you could eyeball them and watch them live how they fit into your scene. There is nothing wrong to not code starting coordinates of your objects as long you can overwrite/change them in your script after.


Drag and drop possibility that people are confused with (maybe I misunderstand someone, sorry for that) is to instead of writing a code you drag and drop pre-made functions. They are presented visually as nodes and not as a lines of code. I am absolutely against that as well. Possibility to see what is under the hood with elegant language like Basic (my personal view) is the power that other engines can't afford.
Kevin Cross
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 17:22
I used GameSalad which was/is a mix of visual editor and code blocks. I hated the code blocks part of it. It's tedious creating app/games like that if you enjoy programming.
OryUI - A WIP AGK2 UI Framework
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 18:12 Edited at: 12th Feb 2019 23:23
As others have said I don't think there has been any mention of adding visual programming here only adding some kind of visual scene creation tool. Looking forward to seeing what we end up with.
c0d3r9
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 19:13
And now we need a special area in the forum to talk about the AGK-S beta.
Or only a thread for it?

Btw. the IDE looks nice.(rotating 3d preview for modells is awesome)
puzzler2018
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 19:17
Yeah cool, as long as it supports big mesh memblocks updates with ease - then ill be good for it..

Otherwise i will keep pondering on working out a best solution fort those bigger style/world apps.
c0d3r9
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 19:42 Edited at: 12th Feb 2019 19:43
I mean if you click on a 3d modell from your assets you have a 3d preview.

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 19:45
Very slick indeed - Well done TGC - looking really promising....
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fubarpk
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 19:55
Quote: "Yeah cool, as long as it supports big mesh memblocks updates with ease - then ill be good for it.."

The memblock tests ive been giving it seem to work well, I plan to try some of your memblock code for speed comparisons etc
fubar
puzzler2018
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 21:45
Cheers - that would be good of you

As Preban once said on one of my threads - building a mesh takes processing time with the AppGameKit version of CreateObjectFromMeshMemblock depending on the hugeness of it.

- We create a large object

- This is now in memory

- Any 3 vertices can be changed dynamically straight into that memory without having to rebuild the whole mesh!!!.

That would be awesome -

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c0d3r9
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 22:33
Is the opengl fallback autoselect if the hardware does not support vulkan?
Atm i run AGKS on my laptop without vulkan support.And the builds run normaly.
Santman
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 22:46
Guys...didn't Rik say Vulkan wouldn;t be in until the launch, so at the moment performance is exactly the same as the old AGK.....the beta is more about testing the IDE?

Puzzler, memblocks won;t preview as they are just data dumps, the IDE wouldn't know what to do with them.
blink0k
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 22:47 Edited at: 12th Feb 2019 22:50
I have two monitors and with most editors you can detach the windows so i can have one monitor with just the edit windows and the other panels off to the side in my other monitor.
Most IDE's i have worked with can do this including Visual Studio


Ps: Luv that embed button on the reply form. Is that new? I haven't noticed it before

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 12th Feb 2019 22:49
It will show when we Run the app surely - not in preview mode.
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The Next
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 09:15
Quote: "Ps: Luv that embed button on the reply form. Is that new? I haven't noticed it before"


Yes it is new
Windows 10, Intel i7 4.2 GHz, 16GB DDR4, NVIDIA GTX 780 4GB Superclocked

Rick Nasher
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 09:43 Edited at: 13th Feb 2019 10:16
As c0d3r9 says:
Quote: " "Btw. the IDE looks nice.(rotating 3d preview for modells is awesome)"
"

I don't know if anyone noticed, but this is something that Windows 10 does in the explorer preview by default nowadays already..
[EDIT: have to correct myself here. Only works for certain types such as .OBJ. Fun fact: it fails to preview on .X which is afaik MS's own 3D format??? ]



I'd like the ability to drag and drop the media from the Editor Preview into the code, quickly creating an object path and name, for I guess that's what we're talking about here right?
If you then would be able to set/choose several parameters that go with that new object that could be a bit of a time saver also.


The real power would come from a 3D world drag&dropper, perhaps with a Switch-Code-Window to 3D-World-Preview button(or split screen, even better).
But have my doubts about how uniformly usable it would be though. Really has to be well thought through, but I'm sure TGC/Preben could do that if they want to.
For instance you should be able to set if you want transparency, textures, character-controller(physics) etc and all parameters/options that go with that particular media type.

Now for the harder part: what if we want to drag and drop a car or rocket model, but the language in itself doesn't support car-physics? Then the whole thing wouldn't make sense/ fall apart. That's why I'm hammering on that being implemented as a necessity, as it would make the language more complete and gain more users(buyers?) along side asynchronous loading and spot-lights.

Perhaps Preben could take these kind of features from GG loader and implement them in conjunction with Paul?


For that's basically what's missing from the language AppGameKit 3D section. All other parts like vertex commands would be nice, but as people have shown can be added using mem-blocks albeit not that easy to use as dedicated commands imho, so would be a real plus too.
fubarpk
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 10:24
@Rick Nasher

Plugins Support
Perhaps if the IDE allow scripts/plugins or the likes of to be added to the IDE
that way people could have there own personalized plugins for the IDE such
as drag and drop models to source code etc. They would need to be added to
perhaps a plug in menu to show them, would allow some great optimization.
and a positive step towards the future of AGK. Allowing Paul to spend more time
on Vulkan/AGK Classic development. But it still would need some development
to develop this feature but could possibly allow a large variation of plugins
shared by the AppGameKit community. For example 2D/3D editor plugins, Placement
Editors for both 2D and 3D and people could chose the plug in they fancied

PS not sure whats gone into the development of the IDE behind the scenes so
I have no idea of what would be needed to be done to make this an eventuality
but think it would be a great step forward.
fubar
Rick Nasher
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 11:11 Edited at: 13th Feb 2019 11:16
IDE plugins could be nice, but Preben would have to write a whole plugin system.
For scripting I've come to understand that for instance DLL's are not possible for physics as that would require opening up the closed system and would probably only work under Windows.
So that too would require a whole new plugin system, which might be bit much, but would certainly be nice to have.

Also, even though I'm trusting Preben to do nice job, I hope they will leave open an option for compiling under the current or an alternative IDE, just in case certain features aren't working out for people's personal preference.
There's always a danger in SW companies writing their own IDE, which people may or may not like, forcing it down onto their clients as the one and only option. Then it becomes a matter of, to put it in an odd way: use it or loose it.
psychoanima
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 12:30
I am begging developer(s) to consider implementing this option in Studio version: Exposing properties.

What is exposing properties

It literally means to expose values from script to the editor user interface. These values could appear in the project panel or some new properties tab. To expose them to the editor we will have to add some command right after the variable declaration in our script.
That command will indicate what type of value it is, and can include a name to display in the properties panel.

for an example:



in our properties panel we would have then text Enter position: and next to it text box to display or enter a value.

even further, this option could be handy to edit and display other data types directly from UI:


float - to enter/display a decimal number

string - to enter/display an editable text field


vec3 - to enter/display a three text boxes for each vector




position - to enter/display a text boxes for x, y and/or z values





this could go even more further, making a drop down selector (for choosing different type of variables, objects...), check boxes, etc.


this option would mean less digging and scrolling trough code and useful if our fellow game designer needs to change something during testing but he's not familiar with coding


Santman
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 17:38
Didn't Preben showcase a visual editor a while ago, that was then made public?
Zigi
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 21:35 Edited at: 13th Feb 2019 21:40
Quote: "exposing properties"

It doesn't seems to me we are going to be able to attach scripts to objects like in Unity or GameGuru unless it is going to change with the "integrated" Level Editor.
In case it is going to be possible with using the Level Editor, exposing properties is indeed a must have. It would be useful for team work, for example the coders could expose properties the level designers can play with when they are designing the level. it would also open up the door for the community and TGC to create "ready to use" assets that people can just drag 'n drop in to their scenes, change some values and press play to try without need to touch any of the code (just like in GameGuru).

Would be nice addition to the level editor so it would not ruin the coding experience for those who prefer to code everything and not interested in the level editor and visual editing part.
Or would it be interesting to allow something like this for pure script files too? Exposing properties, default values from script files that we can change in the editor and then we could use the script files without need to open it and change the value in code. Would it make sense? I don't know. I let the coders decide but I definitely would like to see something like this for the level editor in case could attach scripts to objects inside the editor similar to GameGuru basically.
psychoanima
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Posted: 13th Feb 2019 22:43 Edited at: 13th Feb 2019 22:47
@zigi

I don't think attaching script to an object is necessary for exposing properties. Everything can be done in a single script file, or calling /referencing a script from another script file.

But yes, this could open possibilities to sell completed script for non-programers, like 2D platformer movement, FPS camera, etc...

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