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Bug Reports / Upgrade 5.9 Beta 3

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:08
Download the main upgrade from here http://files2.thegamecreators.com/betafiles/DBPro_Upgrade_59b3.zip

Download the extras file http://files2.thegamecreators.com/betafiles/DBPro_Upgrade_59_Extras_v3.zip

The extras file contains information about the DBO format, the open source ODE plugin and the FPS Creator game source.

Mike will post a list of changes in due course.

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They grow old because they quit playing.
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:13
When's the whole thing (Not beta) coming out?

Platformer soon to be wip you'll like it
Peter H
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:14
downloading...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:20
Probably later in the week

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:22
This is likely to be the final version now. Here's the information taken from the upgrade file -



A note about the collision commands - they have gone back to how they were for upgrade 5.8. The reason is I tried to make some changes to get things right but it needs updating completely and I need to spend more time on this. If you want to be more accurate with collisions then I suggest use the ODE plugin for now.

After this upgrade I begin work on upgrade 6. The main work involved in that will be on the compiler and collision and anything else that remains on the bug base. The plan is to try and eliminate everything on here.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:31
There's also a new set of commands that can be used with the Advanced Terrain pack. The new commands allow you to provide a set of input textures and from there it will build one large texture that can cover the terrain. These commands will be added into the final installer.
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:35
Cool thanks mike

Platformer soon to be wip you'll like it
Zero #43
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:46
does this require the V3 thingy still???

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MiR
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:21
Quote: "After this upgrade I begin work on upgrade 6. The main work involved in that will be on the compiler and collision and anything else that remains on the bug base"

So DXSAS compatibility won´t make it for U6 after all?
Now about these nodetree optimization commands that have been unlocked in 5.9. mmm. Which ones are they?

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:22
Better support for shaders is also planned

Will get a complete list of commands for you later on.
Etienne
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:41 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 19:50
ahhhhhhhhhh ah !
beta 3 ... testing

I tried to recompile old demos , some didn't work with beta 2 , i'll test them now . tried 3 random old demos , it seems to work with beta 3 ... but there seems to be a problem with the ide (the standard one , updated etc .... ) the dbpro projects often opens blank dbpro files , as if there was no projects at all ... ?

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:59
Quote: "Better support for shaders is also planned."


Quite. I wouldn't worry about the Shader Support it definately isn't being forgotten about.

Apart from anything else, there are some thing's I would like Mike to try and sort out before November. As it isn't likely we'll be about to play with the physics before then. Might as well have something breath-taking for the convention heh

Morcilla
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 20:02
Apart from losing 5 fps compared with 5.8, everything seems to run fine here. Testing a lot of code
Etienne
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 21:36
were are the ide links gone please ?

On the download page for 5.8 there were here but there are not here anymore now , i need them in order to properly test the 5.9 eventhough that i have them already ..

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 22:39 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 22:39
Collision system still registers a collision anytime you are inside an object. This makes the collision system totally useless ATM. Try this example I posted earlier. It worked fine in DBP 5.7 (collisions were just off in a few directions by half the colliders size), worked somewhat ok in DBP 5.8 (some directions did not even register a collision), and totally does not work in DBP 5.9 beta 3 (it registers a collision anytime the collider is inside the level and not hitting anything). It all seemed perfect with DBP 5.8 SDK version ... Can you tell what the differences are between the 2 versions?

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MiR
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 22:46
Quote: " Better support for shaders is also planned

Will get a complete list of commands for you later on."

Cool. Can´t wait.

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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 22:48
@LIT:

Quick question, I understand that the collision is registering "inside" an object, but that "is" a collision. Sorry about my post earlier, but the more I thought about it, you would never "Collide" with the skybox anyways. What I did was move the skybox along with my character/ship/mech whatever I was using.

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:18
Lost in Thought - The collision code has gone back to what it was in upgrade 5.8 for a few reasons. For now all I can suggest is using the ODE plugin we provide if you want to use better collision. I need to spend more time on this for upgrade 6 when everything will be sorted out properly.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:26
@ Cellbloc Studios If you run the example I posted in DBP 5.8 you will see what I mean. With that logic, if you walked inside a building you would be colliding with the building, even if you aren't touching the floor or the ceiling, and your player could not move.

@ Mike Sounds good to me. As long as it is usable for now Hopefully there can be a bit of time just for collision. It has been off for some time now. Wouldn't be so bad if NGC could hurry up and fix theirs but they say they need rotational data or something from you guys. Either way when they make their 3D engine and put collision in it, I think it will work better with DBP. Too bad that is months away as well.

Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:37
@LIT:

Correct. I agree with you completely, but then again, you should not have a collision box around a house. But I will shut up and look at your code before I speak again.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:42
I was using polygon collision for it, so in theory the collision box around it (if there is one)should be ignored and only used for box collision. Just the polys should be collidable. I did not however make that level. It was posted in the code snippets under GMan's sliding collision code that I helped him with.

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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:45
Mike - Why not role the 6.0 upgrade and 5.9 together, especially if your going to do 6.0 directly after 5.9

Yes, it may take a lot longer, but it should show up extra problems and allow for extra testing.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:49
That depends on how long it is going to take to do 6.0

Duffer
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:58
is the nodetree optimisation in u5.9?
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:00
It would be nice to have a "bug month". I have no problems waiting for 6.0 before the end of the year. I mean, if 5.9 is just a quick patch for something.

It seems to me that the major stuff people are asking for (and quite about shaders!) are collision and the compiler, both which will take time to modify.

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Raven
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:37
Quote: "Yes, it may take a lot longer, but it should show up extra problems and allow for extra testing."


Short quick updates that provide constant updates.
It's more how Mike works, and I think the community will prefer this to waiting several months for large updates that fix somethings and break others.

This way you guys and Mike can kind of keep a constant, back'n'forth going of bug reports and fixes.

re faze
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 01:58
nope, object size is still busted up

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 02:21
Well that really needs fixing

spooky
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 03:31
Sounds to me like 5.9 is way off being stable enough for release - sounds like SSS is of same opinion. I think I'm gonna stick with 5.8 and let some guinea pigs road test 5.9 final.

Sounds like Mike might be struggling with some complicated stuff without the help of Lee. Two heads are better than one.

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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 04:10
My issue is that since I will be releasing the updated FPSC (Riker 9) I need to use the 5.9 update.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 10:57
Quote: "It's more how Mike works, and I think the community will prefer this to waiting several months for large updates that fix somethings and break others"

True- although it would fix things in one go, as opposed to having to wait between updates...

Quote: "sounds like SSS is of same opinion"

It could do with addition TLC

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Devil Bat
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:04
So,is the 5.9 beta a trial? or it's also the upgrade for DB Pro...
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:05
Quote: "Sounds like Mike might be struggling with some complicated stuff without the help of Lee. Two heads are better than one."


I think Lee broke most of it when tweaking FPSC and then left him with it to put back together I guess I am going to learn ODE instead of just using simple idiot proof collison checking. Assuming ODE works correctly. I'll keep my eyes on DBP progress

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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:21
Quote: "upgrade for DB Pro..."

Upgrade

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:29
The object size problem is related to updating the bounds for collision with animation data. What works for the way the models are set up in FPS Creator does not always work for other formats as the code uses a fairly rough approximation in some cases. One way of solving this in the next 5.9 is to use this code -



By setting the frame to 0 and then using the recreate bound flag as 1 and then calculating the bounds the box is created at the correct size.

Aside from this I don't see too many major problems in upgrade 5.9. The main thing I see is the collision problem and issues to do with the compiler. Thats why I think releasing 5.9 now is a good idea and then that gives me a few weeks to sort out upgrade 6.

If anyone doesn't think that 5.9 is stable then please post about it in the bug forum and let me know what the exact problems are.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:37
And Spooky, seeing as though I wrote a massive amount of the source code I happen to know how it works If you find some problems then let me know and I can sort them out whether it be for this upgrade or a future one.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:54
That seems like an easy object size fix to me. And except for the few odd bugs scheduled and of course the collision system, 5.9 seems OK. My project even got a FPS increase just from updating. Same as always, when you have a new release you have to find all the new quirks. Sorry I don't have more time to play with it. All 3 of my 3000 to 6000 line programs run fine in 5.9 beta 3 with very little adjustments except for the object size and collision problems. And the sound playing()/ sync bug you fixed

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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 11:57
You wont forget DarkSDK now, will you ??

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BatVink
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 14:33
Quote: "I guess I am going to learn ODE instead of just using simple idiot proof collison checking. Assuming ODE works correctly."


LIT, it won't fix your collision problems. You can't just enable ODE and carry on as you used to. You have to use ODE commands to move stuff around, and there is a major command missing...the one that simply lets you move an object from A to B. You have to use velocity or force, so the end position is not very easy to predict. Especially when you start factoring in weight and friction, and World Step.

One other problem...you can't have friction and bounce. Switching on bounce switches off friction. In fact, I'll make that a bug thread on it's own, it's quite a big issue for a physics system.

Raven
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 15:46
You should be able to use the collision part of ODE.
This is something that I'm planning on suggesting to Mike actually, have ODE and the "Physics" plug-in act as the collision engines.

It would also mean when people integrate physics it won't be a case of having to work around 2 systems, but have a single system working with extensions. Or atleast that's how the theory goes.

Then again I could just sit down and get on with what I've got to do, which is probably a good idea.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 18:08
I just can't figure out what went wrong. The collision system was perfect in 5.8 SDK

When I get time this weekend I'll I'll see just what I need to have basic collision one way or another. Whether it be from physics, custom code, or a collision plugin if I can find one. There seems to be no update in sight from NGC until they finish their N3D and NB v2.03 is ok but doesn't register collisions from moving meshs (rotation and overhead mainly) like doors.

Collision is, and has been for about a year and a half now, my only major bug in my projects. I could use 5.8 DSK version I guess but then users are required to download special updates and there could be other problems that come up from running an older version of DBP (expansion pack updates and whatnot). For some reason collision doesn't seem to be a big priority for anyone. NGC hasn't had a usable updat since Jan 2004 and the DBP bugs have been reported since Aug 2003. Hopefully U6 will get it finally or the ODE stuff will work out.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 18:25
ODE uses a free open source colision library called OPCODE. It is also used in Tokamak. A wrapper could possibly be written for the OPCODE library so people that don't want physics could just use a really good colision system.

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Raven
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 18:41
Quote: "ODE uses a free open source colision library called OPCODE"


come again?

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 18:50
It is actually only used for the triangle mesh collision detection in ODE, but it is a complete collision library nonetheless. If you download the source to ODE, notice the OPCODE folder. It stands for "Optimized-Collision-Detection". It was written by Pierre Terdiman, one of the main guys on Novodex now.
Anyway, if someone was looking for a good collision detection system, that would be a good one to wrap.

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BatVink
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 19:00
I agree, LIT, collision is an area that needs sorting once and for all.

DB Pro's collision works for simple projects. It's a good starting point for new coders. But once you start to do anything serious, you outgrow it very quickly.

I'd like to see an dedicated update that simply implements good collision. If it's the current one updated or ODE I don't care, just one that does the job.

Actually I do have an opinion. Making ODE collision work globally would be a good solution. Then we get a tried and tested collision system, more supporting ODE commands, and a closer-integrated physics solution.

Kenjar
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 21:15 Edited at: 12th Oct 2005 21:17
I installed the beta 3 patch and it prevents me from loading up project files just by double clicking on them. DarkBASIC Pro loads, but all I get is a blank document and I have to go load up the .dbpro file again.

But the good news is that the beta 3 patch now allows my compiled programs to play AVI files again.


Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.
Math89
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 21:18
Right click on you project/open with/select a program/ then select "Dbpro"
MiR
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 22:33
mmmm. I might have missed something here but why not forget the collision commands and have ODE handling collision? I´m sure it´s quite well made. Failing that since it´s open source how about nicking the code for collision and incorporating it into DBPro?

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Etienne
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 22:40 Edited at: 12th Oct 2005 22:43
mike could you release the update soon ? like yesterday for instance

might be rushing too much though ..

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re faze
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 22:45
yeah but only after fixxing object size back to the way it was

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.

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