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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Is this the new RC 10 update we've been waiting for?

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 10:37
Hey, RF, does TGC see pay you to defend FPSC all the time

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
GameFun4U, the ultimate funtainment. Cool Games and Resources for your own games.
Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 11:01
lol, no, i just think that alot of the problems some of these newer people are having is operator error, and they liket o piggy back off of those of us that have legit problems...though mine are minor and relly aren't worth mentioning..


FredP
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 12:58
I'm just waiting on the update.I will reserve any opinions I have until then...or until X10 is released...whichever happens first.
I have my issues with FPSC.I think everybody does.
But I am going to remain as open minded as possible until that point in time.
One of the reasons I unstickied this is because it became less about the update and more of a debate on FPSC and its quirk,bugs,etc...a trend I see happening more and more in the Product Chat forum.
We start off on one topic and then it becomes about FPSC and which side of the road you're on as far as using it.
I'm kind of in the middle of the road here...hope I don't get hit by oncoming traffic.
I know there are people who are frustrated and people who are frustrated at those that are frustrated so I want to give everybody a chance to express their opinions within reason.
No matter which side of this you're on you have a right to feel frustrated.

Komet
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 13:15
I've not been around for many months, I'm an Early Adopter (so-called...) of FPSC and hope that when I install the latest update later this afternoon that all goes well and that it has improved since I last tried to create a game with it...

I see a lot of folk are moaning about the various patches, including people who a year ago who were very patient and non critical of TGC, well let's see.
Komet
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 14:26
The 1.04 patch seems ok so far, bit slower on the loading time and I think the framerate is slower, then again the test map was a wide open space with a huge building.

Let's see when I add entities, lighting and so on then compile a quick test game.

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xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 28th Feb 2007 15:41
Quote: "Hey, RF, does TGC see pay you to defend FPSC all the time "


Reduced to this, are we? I'm sorry they didn't think your game was all that, but you really have to get over it.

On Topic:

The folks at TGC must be just too busy with the new product dev. They have quit answering e-mails and no longer post updates or appear in any threads. I'm hoping they take a break and give us a heads up soon.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 16:04 Edited at: 28th Feb 2007 16:07
Quote: "try moving them down a bit"

They are moved down to the right height. I discovered that problem a long time ago. It's RC10's fault, not mine.

Quote: "If you were getting only 16 with v1.02 you are not efficiently building your levels."

<SIGH> How many times must I say this. MY COMPUTER DOESN'T MEET HALF THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. Look at it this way. When I lay ONE segment down. I STILL don't even get 33 fps. I always get 30 or 31.

RF- I would send you the .fpm but I have a LOAD of custom entities that you don't have. And I know you don't have them because I made them. I'm not going through my entire level and wiping out everything. If I did that the level would run TOO perfect because there would be NO entities.

Quote: "
these newer people are having is operator error"

I personally think I've advanced faster than a typical NEW person. And I know how and where to place lights and what not. Of course I do have my own mistakes but my level couldn't run any more perfect. The level design is laid out to perfection. I've downloaded all these level comp's levels and not ONCE did I ever maintain a speed of 16 fps. All do to the fact that my computer sucks horribly. 16 FPS is like magic for my computer. So don't come running trying to stick up for FPSC when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Quote: "We start off on one topic and then it becomes about FPSC"

I have my part in that. In this though, I was briefly stating what happened in the update. And of course it was a complete failure but I simply stated what happened.

FredP
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 16:04
I hope TGC posts something soon.
Already there are angry,irritated and frustrated users...and rightfully so.
There hasn't been a update since the beginning of January and everyone is expecting one.
If not things are just going to get worse.


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 16:09
I agree Fred. People are just going to keep getting angrier and angrier. I'll be fine until the next update. Most likely I won't even use it. But I'm alright with sitting with 1.04 RC2. I'd like a better update. But I'll be fine.

Hey Fred. Can I have my "My computer sucks" quote a sticky, lol. Just kidding. But I swear I tell people that EVERY day.

Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 19:24
Quote: "<SIGH> How many times must I say this. MY COMPUTER DOESN'T MEET HALF THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. Look at it this way. When I lay ONE segment down. I STILL don't even get 33 fps. I always get 30 or 31."


Why are you even posting then? If your machine does not even meet the minimum requirements your posts are about as affective as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. Sorry to be rude but that's fact. Are you waiting on TGC do add a down grade for you? Cause any further upgradeas are just going to kill th performance for you even more.

Quote: "I personally think I've advanced faster than a typical NEW person. And I know how and where to place lights and what not. Of course I do have my own mistakes but my level couldn't run any more perfect. The level design is laid out to perfection. I've downloaded all these level comp's levels and not ONCE did I ever maintain a speed of 16 fps. All do to the fact that my computer sucks horribly. 16 FPS is like magic for my computer. So don't come running trying to stick up for FPSC when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."


Then it's a simple solution post the .fpm or email it to me. You have no idea what a perfect level would run like, since your machine is out of date.

Quote: "RF- I would send you the .fpm but I have a LOAD of custom entities that you don't have. And I know you don't have them because I made them. I'm not going through my entire level and wiping out everything. If I did that the level would run TOO perfect because there would be NO entities."


If someone was offering to help me fix something, I would make the attempt to meet that person half way. So what I gather is that you saw Bens posts, and then decided that your problems were the same as his. Basically your machines are sub-par, and either refuse to update your machine or haven't the money in which case you post your problems here so Lee gathers up your false data, remember your machine does not meet system requirements, and then tries fix this program based on bogus data! No wonder an update hasn't been released, TGC are probably as confused as the rest of us are...

Now I am sorry for being mad, but until you meet the minimum requirements don't post your bugs. This is very counter productive mate. You get ehe award this week.......

Regards,
RF


Lightning Bolt Studios
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 00:18 Edited at: 1st Mar 2007 06:06
I just want to say I haven't had any really major problems with FPSC, and it might not be perfect but I also know some of the forum members PC are at the bare minimum requirements to run FPSC (low end video cards, slow CPU and low ram) and if they have other programs running in the background like AIM, MSN messenger, etc. this will also add to more problems when compiling a game. I notice allot of people that have problems with FPSC and post screen shots of there desktop showing there error usually have a bunch of programs running in the background by the number of icons in bottom right corner of there screen, you need to turn them all off except your antivirus and firewall this will help FPSC allot by freeing up system resources. And not to mention if your PC is full of spy ware this will also cause problems with FPSC, I mean you can’t dump jet fuel into an old beat up car and expect it to compete in a NASCAR race. and that is part of the problem, If you have a newer PC with a good video card, fast CPU and good amount of ram, and you don’t try to run 5 other programs while your using FPSC and your PC isn’t full of spy ware you should not have to many problems!
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 00:30 Edited at: 1st Mar 2007 02:19
[EDIT] Forget this post. Completely remove. I went absurd on RF.

Sorry for this. RF please just let me go sulk in a corner without you acknowledging it (in a negative way towards me). If you already read this. Sorry for being rude.

Komet
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 00:43
Agreed, I find so far runs ok on my PC, by no means does that mean it is not a resource hog because FPSC is, for example...

I can play any PC game on my computer so far including Battlefield 2, even though I only have 512MB RAM, Pentium 4 CPU (2.54GHz) and an ATI Radeon 9550 graphics card, but I'm thinking any game created with FPSC will run far slower than BF2 and use up motre resources.

I doubt this can be improved upon though due to TGC using coding FPSC in DBPro if memory serves me correctly? Whatever, it's still interesting stuff and the fact that I can create games without programming knowledge as such is the reason why people buy FPSC I guess.

P.S. I'm not going to install Vista nomatter what, will TGC be releasing FPSC for Linux?
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 02:15
That's exactly why I love FPSC. A simple click of the button and BAM you can walk around. Although I'm very frustrated with it, I still love it.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 03:51
Ok so I've commented on occassional threads about this kind of stuff before and wasn't intending to do so again for a while but I've just been testing a level with the 1.04 RC10 update, and would add the following:

In terms of presentation, I think that the introduction of Dark Lights into the engine was a great addition. In fact for performance purposes, I now consider it a worthwhile trade off to use full light / shadow mapping on static entities that I would have otherwise made dynamic in certain places just for additional eye candy by enabling dynamic shadows on them. Of course entities which you would like to have physics applied to is still fine but just accept these will not have dyanmic shadows and use sparingly.

Dynamic lighting is another trade off feature as some people require this in their games. This means that by default the light source needs to be dynamic and suffers from performance issues if used in abundance so again should be used sparingly.

I'll point out as this point that dynamic lights only work correctly in final game build from v104 RC8 and above and for me full light / shadow mapping only worked correctly in the final build with v1.04 RC10.

I've found that by making the above dynamic shadows trade off, limited use of dynamic objects and avoiding dynamic lighting provides a playable game experience at full 1024x768 resolution and with a good standard of graphics.

This leads me nicely into graphics and specifically shaders. I've got shader issues with v1.04 RC10 which has meant I've had to temporarily drop full shader support from the build settings. This is a shame as was not an issue in earlier FPSC versions. I haven't tested performance for no shaders vs full shaders at this time but for example people have mentioned they would love to see dynamic shadows cast from animated dynamic entities. An example of this would be a monster from Doom 3 casting self shadowing on the environment which looks awesome. However in the absence of this feature in the FPSC engine, shaders can do a nice job of at least allowing monsters to react to lighting dynamically (not to be confused with dynamic lighting), which can be effective when specific cases are setup to show it off.

I'm not really a sound or AI guy (apart from when it's done well for me of course) so someone will have to chip in if they know of any improvements to the sound code in the various FPSC updates along the line and whether AI is purely a matter of good scripting knowledge versus engine capabilities.

At present I am working on 2 things. One being getting full scale terrain to work correctly for both player and enemy collision (thanks for a step in the right direction here Rolfy). The second is a multiplayer level I am creating which currently has a seamless indoor / outdoor environment (fully outdoors not semi) with good high resolution graphics and a solid / playable frame rate. This is because of the fact that multiplayer maps do not allow for dynamic entities or dynamic lighting which as you will have gathered from above, suits my current approach to level design.

There is the graphics crowd, the physics crowd and then the graphics and physics crowd who are just plain greedy. John Carmack still maintains that physics allow only a limited amount of useful addtional gameplay benefits due to these having to be setup very carefully to ensure they work correctly in all cases, and don't fall down anywhere. He still questions whether the performance hit is really worth it even for an engine like Doom 3 let alone FPSC.

Now it's very easy to get frustrated at the fact we are using trade off's and work arounds to achieve the desired results in the context of a playable first person shooter, rather than being able to fully unleash with no restrictions creativity. Also it's a little dis heartening following the anticipation of a new FPSC version / release candidate when you realise a fair proportion of the updates are fixes to issues caused from other previous releases e.g. Lee has already said that "I have also started the new V105 update, and have fixed the colour picker and selection bar splitter resize control bugs". Yes it's worth fixing these of course but difficult to get excited about when there's the new issue with shaders etc. I'm going to take the part about 'started' as being promising however.

To end on a good note. FredP has already stated that "TGC is working on frame rate issues" in the 'any v1.05' thread and as I've said countless times, more performace = more features at a playable frame rate which = better FPSC games.

I'm not going to speculate on the recent lack of information and documented progress with v1.05 as it's unlikely that forum pressure will bring us the update any faster. In keeping with the facts here 1. Lee has at least started v1.05 which is good news and 2. TGC are working on frame rate issues which is equally good news so let's at least wait to see what the finished v1.05 RC1 is going to bring before making any rushed decisions.

I don't really see the point in refusing to update FPSC and working with earlier versions as this will inevitably mean more work is required in catching up with some of the good new features like Dark Lights when either creating a new game or updating an existing game and being able to use them effectively quickly.

As far as I'm concerned it's all or nothing. Put your trust in TGC to get us there in the end, update FPSC to the latest version and push for the best possible game you can deliver. If you know that your game is not going to even have a chance of living up to your own expectations, you can't expect anyone else to appreciate it and your focus will ultimately be lacking as a result.

Either that or learn DBPro for yourself. I purchased a copy of 'hands on dark basic pro volume 2' from the TGC website and looks like an essential buy for anyone interested in non C based game engine programming or anyone brave enough to think about compiling their own FPSC build.
Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 03:55
Quote: "Sorry for this. RF please just let me go sulk in a corner without you acknowledging it (in a negative way towards me). If you already read this. Sorry for being rude."


No biggie Jenkins, I hope you understand what and why I said what I said.


Regards,
RF


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 04:43
I completely understand. But if you had the bugs I was getting, I think you'd be understanding what I'm trying to say. But yeah, I understand. And I would send you the .fpm but WAY too much custom media. Actually there is like 50 different models in there and only 5 are stock.

Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 05:49
Quote: "But if you had the bugs I was getting, I think you'd be understanding what I'm trying to say. But yeah, I understand. And I would send you the .fpm but WAY too much custom media. Actually there is like 50 different models in there and only 5 are stock."


If I was trying to run a program on a machine that doesn't even meet minimum spec I would expect these errors and woule either

a. Update my machine
b. stop using said software
or
c. Not complain as it is expected to run poorly on my machine due to the low performance specs of my machine.

So, no you didn't understand what I was talking about. Basically this, this software has a minimum specification that needs to be met to run this software. Ok, now that we both understand that let's look at the problem.

Scenario A.

Frank has a machine that meets all of the minimum specs to run a pice of software. He has bugs and he reports them. The development team then uses his bug reportts to help locate and generate a fix for said bug reports.

The development team knows his specs are to the standard perscribed for the program. They know that Franks computer can handle all of the hardware draws that they have in the program. So the create a fix for the bug that was reported.

Scenario B.

Godzirra has a machine that does not meet the perscribed minimum requirements for said software. Godzirra is experiencing many problems, he generates a bug report and submits it to the developers.

The developers look at the bug report and start generating a fix for it. Unaware of the specs from said system the bug report was generated from. Developers release a fix for said bug report and the general public install the fix expecting it to be productive. When all is said and done it is more of a down grade than a fix.

Do you understand now? I am trying not to be condescending towards you Jenkins. You should know that when a program has minimum specs listed for it's use, they have listed them for a reason, and I am betting that those reason are valid ones. I am sorry that FPSC is bugging out on your machine but it would be like me emailing the creators of doom three and demanding a fix for the program just because I decided to use a 286 cpu.

So all in all unless or until you can or do bring your system up to specs there is not alot that anyone can do to help you. We (the people who would help you) would not be able to reproduce your problems because of PC spec differences. it's a sad fact, but it's the truth. I think for the most part your going to be stuck with the majority of your bugs until your machine is upgraded.


Regards,
RF


FredP
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 05:50
Does this mean we are going to have one big group hug now?

There are quite a few of us who have been around for a while that would love to see this done and overwith so we can do wehatever and finish our games and such.
We've been patient all of this time and I am aware that our patience is getting thin.This is quite understandable.
If we continue to work together as a community we can still accomplish what we set out to do.

KeithC
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:10
All I want is the free licorice dispenser I was promised.....

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:16 Edited at: 1st Mar 2007 06:18
Quote: "a. Update my machine
b. stop using said software
or
c. Not complain as it is expected to run poorly on my machine due to the low performance specs of my machine. "

Okay, just as I was beginning to calm down. Then you go say this. Listen, every update up to RC2 has run fine. Just simply slow due to the lack of RAM in my computer. I had no bugs, just speed issues. With RC10 I had even BIGGER speed issues, which isn't what actually bothered me as much. It was the lightmapping problem. The lights were set to the correct height, whether you can agree with that or not. I know where to put lights and that's where they were. And I know they were at the correct spot because the characters came out lightmapped. The characters were very bright but EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING else was not lighted. That includes entities, which falls under the category EVERYTHING ELSE. And I didnt' GENERATE a bug report. I sent nothing in besides simply how I felt. I said what happened, but I generated NO REPORT. And you're right, my computer does not meet the minimum specs, thats for RAM only though. I've had NO problems with FPSC. Simply this update doesn't work for me. Why can you not except that? So with all do respect, GO AWAY.

RF go away. I'm sorry for you that you have to stick up for a completely disastrous bug infested software. That's not my problem that's yours.

Quote: "Godzirra"

lol

KeithC
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:21
So, no hug then?

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:24
I'll give you a hug Keith, lol.

Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:27
Keith and Fred I'm afraid not my friends.

Ok now to deal with Jenkins....Comprehension.......ok I am not mad nor will I get mad, I just don't do that much anymore.......

I do understand that you are having these problems..Here's the thing. create a map the same size as you have now, place the same amount of entities and lights..make sure all media is stock. then turn of your shaders and turn full lightmapping on.. compile it and go get lunch. come back and test the level..write the results down.

If you do get the same problem post the .fpm as all registered suers will have the stock media and the .fpm will be useless to those with out it..

Regards,
RF


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 06:30
Alright. I'll do that, uhhhh maybe tomorrow. It's alread 9:30 PM. So I need to go to bed soon. Right now I'm doing a few stuff to the website I'm creating.

Thraxas
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 07:08
Quote: "Just simply slow due to the lack of RAM in my computer."


I'm not taking any sides here... but RAM is really quite cheap these days... Is it not possible to buy some more ram? I don't know your situation so this may not be a possibility... Many years ago when I had a whopping 12mb of ram (and a thunderous 850mb hard-drive) on my system and I was trying to run some software that needed 16mb, I had countless problems and bugs that disappeared as soon as I upgraded my ram... and that was only a difference of 4mb... I would imagine your difference is much bigger than that...


RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 07:13
Quote: "I had a whopping 12mb of ram"

Whew that is some load of RAM you had there, lol.

Well, RAM isn't exactly 'cheap' Being 16 it is pretty difficult to raise money without a job. Trying to get a job at some Italian restaurant though. For 2GB it was around $200, I believe. When I get the RAM I'll see how that affects the bugs. But until then, I'm sticking to RC2. Because I don't have any major bugs.

Thraxas
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 07:43
I suppose cheap is a relative term... but compared to what it used to cost... you wouldn't believe how much I had to pay for 8mb back in the day


Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 09:25
I remember! lol tghose where the good old days when you could kick the machine and it still ran...


Komet
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 10:16
Quote: "KeithC: So, no hug then?"


More chance of TGC fixing every bug by next week
xplosys
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 15:55 Edited at: 1st Mar 2007 15:59
@Jenkins,

Lack of RAM not only causes speed issues, but many mystery problems and crashes as well. Speed is only the first visible sign, so it would make sense that as you continue to upgrade the program to a newer and more memory intensive version, you will begin to see more issues, as the program will begin to break down and skip or fail to produce the proper effects, or produce them in a reduced or wrong fashion.

It's not rocket science and you will find that most of the issues will correct themselves with more memory. It's nothing to get upset about, you just need more memory. I am a systems developer and administrator for 2 companies and have been in the computer field many years. Just in case you think I'm talking out of my butt.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 1st Mar 2007 16:17
Okay, thanks for the info. Well I'm upgrading in a few days because I finally got the money. So I hope that, that fixes the problems. If not, I will slap myself.

jonathan samson
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 05:52
ok this is the last time im asking when will the next update come out?

j.samson
My beauty it is my sin...
Candle_
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 08:07
Quote: "ok this is the last time im asking when will the next update come out?"

When it's done.


MY FPSC FILES
Roger Wilco
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 13:14
@Candle_: A la 3d-realms or what?

"Or perhaps we're just one of god's little jokes?"

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