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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / *** Christmas DBPro Minimal Media Coding Competition ***

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Van B
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 09:01
Embedding a media file in data statements is just a way to store the image, so it would be considered cheating - but actually drawing the image based on data would not. Basically the raw image data can't be stored anywhere, it has to be generated.

This compo might see some interesting ways to generate textures, like procedural methods, applying different rules to create different textures.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Ric
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 10:03 Edited at: 13th Dec 2007 10:10
Quote: "Please clarify how these are different? I consider them the same thing. "


The 'no media rule' has always been prone to grey areas and confusion, I'm afraid. Without getting into a debate, the bottom line is that 'media' in this context means anything that wasn't created using DBPro alone. So long as everything you create is with DBPro, you'll be fine.

Other than that, please wait until Sunday at which point the full official competition rules will be posted. If at that point there are any rules you don't understand then I'll do my best to explain them then - although I don't want to enter into any discussions as to whether people agree with them or not, as those discussions have already taken place, and the rules have evolved as a result of those discussions.


@Van - any chance of a sticky for the duration of the compo?



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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 10:46
Stickied

Ric
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 16:02
Tremendous.



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Van B
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 16:08
Ahh, sorry I missed the sticky request, should have done it anyway - good to see the Vink is on the ball at least.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
flashing snall
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 19:43
so, this is to start on the 16th?
I hope i can stick with this one, because for most of the other mini challenges, i never finish.


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Zappo
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 23:56 Edited at: 13th Dec 2007 23:56
Will we have to provide the source code? Just wondering. I may not have the time to enter the competition but you never know.

Sorry - should probably wait until the rules are released!


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Ric
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 00:28
Yes, we will be wanting to see source code, just like the DBPro challenges. The ethos behind the challenges has always been to allow people to learn from each other's code, and this contest should be no different in that respect - it's supposed to be mildly educational! Aside from that, if you provided a compiled program it would make it harder for us to check that you didn't include additional media.

All will become clear on the 16th when the rules will be published.



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Game pro
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 02:01
Wow, can't wait for this. Nice way to make a little cash while having some fun . Good luck to everyone who enters.

I have nothing to say to the likes of you.
Darth Vader
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 13:54
Well I will probably enter for the fun of it! But I'm not sure about this texture generating. Is it allowed to generate a texture using the DOT command?


Van B
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 14:07
I think so.

If you make a bitmap, then dot every pixel in it with a random green colour, you can grab that and use it as a grass texture. This is like the very basics of procedural textures, you can apply different techniques to produce different textures, like rock, and wood. It really depends on how deeply you look into it, but there's a lot you can do with just code to make textures and effects. If you used random red colours instead, you could then make a function to buttonise part of the image, like lighten the top and left sides of the area and darken the right and bottom sides, calling a function like that in the appropriate areas would let you produce brick textures. There's tons of fractal techniques too that can produce more organic looking textures like marble etc, but I think that might be going too far - making a fun game with the supplied media is the primary objective .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
BatVink
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 15:00
AFAIK, If it's generated procedurally, then yes. What isn't allowed is writing a program that reads an image, converts it to DATA commands, and then you simply paste the data commands into your program. That is essentially an embedded image.

Ric
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 21:30
Quote: "Is it allowed to generate a texture using the DOT command?"


Just to add to the above - yes, that's fine.



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Mnemonix
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Posted: 15th Dec 2007 11:01
I saw a DB game once written by TDKMAN for a text only competition and it was done as a retro style racing game. Rather awesome what he did with just text. I will try and find it.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Bad Monkey
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Posted: 15th Dec 2007 18:52
This sounds like a fun competition, and I would like to win that gui studio too.

David Gervais has some pretty cool media too. I look forward to seeing what he comes up with.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 15th Dec 2007 21:22
Competition starts tomorrow.

I wish it started today. I have so much free time!


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Ric
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 01:48
The competition is now underway - see the first post. Good luck to everyone who enters - now get coding!



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Windsept
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 03:21
Yay, the media is released!! Time to go to work!

Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 03:45
A single Box? well anyway, I got started on mine and made it play jingle bells with memblock/sound commands.

Bongadoo
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 10:59
Quote: "made it play jingle bells with memblock/sound commands"


You might want to beware with that because there is a bug in U6.5 which crashes when trying to play 'memblock to sound' based sounds. Very annoying bug.

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison
Sven B
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 11:48 Edited at: 16th Dec 2007 11:48
Quote: "You might want to beware with that because there is a bug in U6.5 which crashes when trying to play 'memblock to sound' based sounds. Very annoying bug."


upgrade to U6.6?

I'm getting started

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Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
Bongadoo
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 12:49
Not fixed in U6.6 either.

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Sven B
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 13:15
That's too bad

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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 14:16
Cool, I'll get started later:

So can we basically do anything we want, provided it has that prezzie somewhere in it?

Blobby 101
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 15:29
Quote: "So can we basically do anything we want, provided it has that prezzie somewhere in it? "
and uses no extra media - yes.


thanks to deathead for the sig! please Click on it!
Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 16:03 Edited at: 16th Dec 2007 16:04
Quote: "You might want to beware with that because there is a bug in U6.5 which crashes when trying to play 'memblock to sound' based sounds. Very annoying bug."


The people who have thoose bugs don't know how to format their memblock correctly. In fact, I don't think it is possible to get the format specs without having DBC. Well, for everyone who wants to take a look:

DWORD 0 bits per sample(8-mono 16-stero)
DWORD 4 frequency(22050)
DWORD 8 # of samples(set to zero if you don't want to do any math)
(if dword 0 is 8)
BYTE X sound data(you will need a sine/square/saw wave)
(if dword 0 is 16)
BYTE X left sound data
BYTE X+1 right sound data

Xenocythe
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 17:55
Can this be used to create music?
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=99381&b=6


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Bongadoo
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 17:57
I'm working on:



I also have code samples (such as Ric's old fireworks demo) which have been shown to work in pre-U6.3 versions, but fail after.

If you have a code sample you can show to work in U6.6 please post, would be very helpful.

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison
Bongadoo
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 18:00
@Veintitres

Nice, that works for me

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Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 18:00
Quote: "memblock dword(1, 0) : `Audio format, 1 = PCM, other values indicate compression
memblock dword(1, 4) : `channels, 1=mono, 2=stereo
memblock dword(1, 8) : `sample rate Hz
memblock dword(1, 12) : `average data rate (for buffer estimation)
memblock dword(1, 16) : `chunk size in bytes
memblock dword(1, 20) : `sample size in bits (bitrate)
memblock dword(1, 24) : `always 0, i have no clue"


I'm pretty sure that is not the correct format used in DB

Xenocythe
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 18:07
Bongadoo,
That snippet makes random music. I can't seem to control how it sounds to create my own notes. Do you wanna talk over MSN so we can create some code that we can make our own music with? (not random)


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Jammy
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 22:35 Edited at: 16th Dec 2007 22:38



Thought i was being very clever using a modified version of rics sound system I found in the codebase, and frequencies which I found in my old commodore 64 Manual, to give a couple of octaves of notes. Then I seen when browsing that last year some guy made MIDIs In much the same way. Only I’m sure they sound better. Well anyway thought this code might help, I will be using some form of it in my entry.

Xlaydos
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 23:12
As much as i hate to give you negative comments... I think that that counts as included media (the data statements)? I'm not sure though. However if you generated a random tune that would be allowed?
Jammy
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Posted: 16th Dec 2007 23:27
Im Sure this would be allowed as the music is not converted into data statements – they only store which note to play and how long it plays for e.g. data 500,”d0” plays the note D in octave zero for 500ths of a second. The note D is generated using MemoryBlocks. So no stored media only generated media controlled by DATA.

But I may be wrong – so don’t be afraid to post your thoughts. I know it is badly structured and may be hard to understand, I am very messy and so don’t post much code but thought that that code may help.

Xlaydos
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 00:01
No its good code and is definatly helpful for me (just not in this project)... its just i think this falls into the same category as generating an image from data statements. For example just reading the colour value of each pixel from data and then using memblock / get image to create the image.

Like i said i'm not sure, so i'll let Ric take it from here

Best of luck with your entry
Ric
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 01:15
Jammy's code is fine - the data appears to be hand coded, which is allowed. From the rules:

Quote: "You may: use a reasonable amount of data statements in your code so long as the data has been hand coded or ... "


If the data was an mp3 file that had been converted to numbers using a separate program and pasted into the code as data, then that would be very different - in this case though there is no evidence that the data is a converted media file.

It's a grey area, though, so it was worth checking.



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Jimmy
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 01:22
Oh, it's on.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 02:54
Hahahah
I'm gonna pwn you Jimmy.


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Sven B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 13:06
We can post our source code here right?

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Bongadoo
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 13:27
Yes, just remember to say which is the final version

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Xlaydos
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 13:31
Sorry for causing confusion jammy and thank you for the clarification Ric
Sven B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 13:45 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 13:57
Then I'll show some code I've been working on:



My very own Santa Clause . Fully textured and animated!
I might add some details in the textures later, but right now I'm going for the cartoony effect.

Oh and here's a tip for everyone joining:
Don't go compiling your whole code if it isn't necessary. When you have a thousand lines of code, and gives an error, I'd rather not search a half hour...
Instead, do as many components separately. If you're sure it works, you can add it to the main source code.

For example:
Object creation, sound creation, image creation, world creation and effect creation are examples of components that can be easily coded separately.

It's the programmer's life:
Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
Bongadoo
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 14:22
Nice Sven I like the detached arms and feet effect.

Can tell there's going to be some tough competition!

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison
Sven B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 15:04
Thanks Bongadoo!

Can't decide what game I'm going to make, but I definately wanted one with a santa, so I started making that.

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Bongadoo
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 15:23
Yea, I've constructed my Santa aswell (albeit 2D), using almost exactly the same method you use. Great minds I guess

I decided I could probably get a better polish in 20 days in 2D rather than 3D, but time will tell (especially as I'm no great artist; and working with 2D commands is a pain in the behind!). I'm trying to avoid data statements aswell, but if I find I'm getting too bogged down by the end of the week I may create a rudimentary art package to help.

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison
Sven B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 15:43
Lol, well I was thinking of a semi 2D game. A side scroller with santa...

But still thinking of a better idea... (one that can be realised though).
I've got some nice idea's, but I doubt if they can be realised.

It's the programmer's life:
Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
Bongadoo
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 16:55
Quote: "A side scroller with santa..."


That's what I'm doing Not your bog standard side-scroller mind you.

I had a handful of ideas, some 2D some 3D, but (as you say) I think this one can be realised given the time limit. I want to keep a week for polish aswell.

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison
DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:42
Wow that is good Sven B, alot better then mine

I keep runing nowhere fast!
Ric
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 21:34
Looking good Sven!

Quote: "I think this one can be realised given the time limit. I want to keep a week for polish aswell."


Good thinking Bonga, and good advice for everyone. Try to resist the temptation of doing what we all do, and coming up with ideas that are fantastic but unrealistic. It's only a three week challenge, so try to keep it simple. We'd rather see a simple game done well than a massive game only half done.

By the way, just incase anyone hadn't figured it out, the Christmas Pressie .x box is 100 units in width, height and depth. Obviously, you can scale that to whatever you like.



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Visigoth
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 03:42
well, I wish I had the time and talent to enter this, but I don't have either, so, I look forward to seeing the entries. I had a thought about something, though, maybe someone could use it. If you ever saw the movie Galaxy Quest; that Rock Monster thing....be funny to make one using the "Box".
Good luck all, and Merry Christmas!

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