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Geek Culture / TGC Supported Community Competitions

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 12:01
That Doom entry never worked , and I remember Rich was a bit dubious about it.

Really I think it would be nice to see a decent Doom remake, but that's quite a tall order for such competitions, there's so much modeling involved.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
David Gervais
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 16:52 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 16:56


My idea is not to make games, or retro remakes.

It's to make simple demos of the power of DarkBasic Professional


It can be simple and powerful functions, 2D or 3D.

It can be a game, but 'keep it simple'.

It can show innovative use of minimal media.

It can be about handling IO, GUI, Timers Etc.


Then we end up with a bunch of code demos that

could be strung together and made into a tech demo.



Just my humble opinion, the only rule that counts is the 'Keep It Simple', why? because as a professional in the industry I can guarantee if you lean to the 'more complicated' chances are it'll end up an unfinished project. you can think of it as creating 'building blocks' that can then blossom into greater things.

I'm willing to help with any artwork to help these demos look their best. Be that adding texture, creating sprites, or 'simple' 3D objects. It's about time DarkBasic Professional got some 'In your face' examples of the power of this programming language.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Cheers!
DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 17:16
It's a cool idea but I think it's going retro.


I'm Pro grammer.
enthusiast
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 23:40
Quote: "At any rate, that's probably one of the distinctions that the judges need to address when laying down the rules"


Ah, speaking of judges, who will they be? Will they be chosen by the community, the moderators or by TGC?

By the way, who are in charge of organizing this compo. I know that it's community led, but we still need leaders.

System: AMD Athlon XP 2200+, nForce 2 ultra 400, 512 MB PC-2700 RAM, 40+320 GB 7200 Hard Drive, Geforce 6200 256 MB AGP , 384Kbps wireless broadband
Mnemonix
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 03:16
The judges so far as I know are Myself, Kentaree and Batvink. Whether or not any of the other people involved will be judging or not, I don't know.

If anybody has any objections to these choices then speak freely about it.

Everything is still up for discussion at this point.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 11:10
Let Jeku be a judge - he seems a even handed chap and he can't enter 'cus he got contract with EA.


The word "Gullible" cannot be found in any English Dictionary.
BatVink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 13:10
The judges will change for different compos, so don't worry about not getting an opportunity.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 16:09
When I hear retro I think about 2D games from 16 bit and older. I would love to see flashy upgrades of old 2D games although I'm not going to participate in the compo. One idea would be 3D remakes of 2D games that uses the same view as the original (using FPS view would not be allowed).

And let's face it, free convention entry won't appeal to people who can't get to the convention in the first place.

[center]
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 02:12
Thanks for the shoutout, Flashing Blade

In my opinion, so we don't have all these questions like "Is this retro?" etc., we should lock it to a set of years. This was already brought up but I agree. If we have a competition for remaking a game from 1980 - 1990 for example, nobody can really argue that this or that game isn't really retro.


BatVink
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 11:39
There are Wiki pages listing CapCom classics, the Namco Museum etc. But as Kentaree quite rightly pointed out to me, people have favourites so we can't just stick to games from specific companies. But if anyone can expand on this idea...?
Mnemonix
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 19:05
What about, perhaps having a cutoff date, which all games have to be remade from titles released before the cutoff date.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Mar 2008 20:46
^^^

Yah that's pretty much what I just said. Remake games from certain dates--- i.e. 1980-1990, etc.


Green7
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 11:47
take a look in there, you can sort the entryes by jear. but be aware, you could get a strange nostalgic feeling ...
http://www.the-underdogs.info/

BatVink
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 15:11
I suggested March 22, 1993. Mnemonix suggested December 10, 1993. Both very important dates when talking retro.
enthusiast
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 19:30 Edited at: 15th Mar 2008 19:31
Quote: "I suggested March 22, 1993. Mnemonix suggested December 10, 1993. Both very important dates when talking retro."


I was going to suggest December 1993 as well, so I'm supporting Mnemonix on this one.

BTW, what happened on those dates that relates to retro? All I can find in Wikipedia was the release of the first Pentium (March 22) and, I suppose the release of Doom (December 10).

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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 21:15
Surely they are significant enough? Two major milestones in hardware and gaming technology!
Mike Inel
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 11:50 Edited at: 17th Mar 2008 02:50
Vouchers sounds good... Since there are many plugins available now...
Edit: Nevermind... I'll just wait for the compo announcement...

Is it retro competition yet?
OwO
vorconan
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Posted: 18th Mar 2008 22:56
Quote: "Two major milestones in hardware and gaming technology!"


I'd say that was an understatement, especially with doom



Jimmy
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2008 16:40
I'd just like to give Mnem and Kentaree my endorsement. It's nice of them to take time out of their busy schedules to judge for this first round of competition.

I applaud you, sirs.

...



"Oh hey, nice website Jimmy, it's really nice and fancy." -- That C++ Nerd
Visit. Website. NOW!
Mnemonix
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Posted: 24th Mar 2008 00:16
yum beer

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SirFire
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Posted: 25th Mar 2008 12:18
but its fake beer

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Scraggle
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Posted: 28th Mar 2008 00:06
Ok, so it's still VERY early days and nothing has been decided but it looks like heading towards a retro remake. So, can I suggest that if that is indeed the way things are going that it is a retro remake and not a retro re-write.

The difference being: A remake is taking an old idea and making it into a modern game. A re-write would be trying to make the game as true to the original as possible.

The reason I think it should go this way is because most of the members here are very young and although I remember slotting 10p's into machines to play Space Invaders, Galaxians, Asteroids, etc. most of the forum members only know these games from re-writes. So, to ask them to recreate those games does seem a little unfair.

So, in summary ... if the compo is to be retro then let it be retro with a modern twist



BatVink
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Posted: 28th Mar 2008 00:39
Quote: "So, can I suggest that if that is indeed the way things are going that it is a retro remake and not a retro re-write."


That was one of the points raised, but not as eloquently There is a third option - anything goes, but in a retro style.
Kentaree
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Posted: 28th Mar 2008 12:06
I'm all for allowing new games in retro style as well as remakes (by Scraggle's definition). Of course, now the issue starts as to what defines retro style, geecee3 suggested games having to be keyboard control only as most retro games (again, depending on definition) didn't use a mouse.

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 31st Mar 2008 20:10
New games in a retro style would be great, or remaking games before December 10, 1993. I think making games in a retro style though would be really appealing and yield a bunch of interesting results.

Again, only question for compo, is would it include entrees made in dark basic classic 1.2, as it's compatible with vista? Personally I think it should, seeing as a retro compo wouldn't be strenuous on it graphically, and there doesn't seem to be any reason not to. My main issue on that front is I only have time to enter if DBC 1.2 is included, as I have no code libraries for DBP, and have a weird saving issue with it on my computer.

Kentaree
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Posted: 1st Apr 2008 15:46
I think we're including DBP, DBC, DGDK and DGDK.net, although with some restrictions that we still have to agree on, and most of these will be for DGDK and DGDK.net because of the large amount of libraries that can be used to make things too easy.

Chris K
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Posted: 1st Apr 2008 17:39
Let's get this thing going!

The one thing I would suggest is a forum based voting system, at least to decide the top ten, like in the Puzzle Compo.

Every gets a page made for their game, which has a standard template - one big screen, three little screenshots, a short description and a download link - then people can vote on it and write a short review and it records who gave each game what.

Then say, you get 10 bonus points if you review 10 other games - to make people play every one else's.

Then the top ten get handed over to judges (like Lee Bamber etc.) for more detailed reviewing...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 1st Apr 2008 20:48
That sounds good. If either it's remaking games before 1993 dec 10, or making makes in retro style, I know exactly what I want to do. This will be really cool. I think it should start with the next newsletter.

Jeku
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Posted: 1st Apr 2008 21:31
Quote: "and most of these will be for DGDK and DGDK.net because of the large amount of libraries that can be used to make things too easy."


Using DGDK or DGDK.net does not make creating a good game "easier". If anything, it's easier to use regular DBC or DBP. There are extended libraries available for both styles.


Kentaree
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2008 15:56
@Jeku: Maybe I phrased it badly, but there's a lot of libraries out there, especially for C++, which would give people an unfair advantage compared to DBP because most of the work is done, and we want to minimize this by for example making a decent-size list of libraries that people are allowed use, it's not perfect, but will hopefully help even things out some.

Van B
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2008 16:14
Quote: "geecee3 suggested games having to be keyboard control only as most retro games (again, depending on definition) didn't use a mouse."


Really though the mouse is a modern equivalent of Arkanoids knob control, and Centipedes track ball. Personally I think that allowing any type of standard control would be a good idea, even encouraging joystick support. I mean I still have the joystick I got for the Spectrum some 20-odd years ago, got it wired up via an old USB joypad .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Scraggle
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2008 21:07
I agree with VanB. Missile Command is VERY retro but you couldn't play that with just a keyboard (or a joystick). You would need a mouse or trackball.



Dared1111
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Posted: 4th Apr 2008 17:09
so when it start?


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Kentaree
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Posted: 4th Apr 2008 18:08
When we hear back from TGC, it's been nearly a month now

Chris K
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 13:24
To the nag-mobile!

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Dared1111
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 23:26
duh duh duh du hdu a... NAG MAN!!!

run it through your head

it makes sense ^^

remember I come with an open mouth


Is the Apple Mac(intosh) waterproof? (Mac users test. Go on, I dare you
Do fishes get thirsty?
Buck1000
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Posted: 21st Apr 2008 02:04
Missle command would be fun. What would the prizes be?
coolgames
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Posted: 26th Apr 2008 17:58
I'd like to see a competition where the artwork is provided, that way, the super artists of the community don't gain too much of an advantage. I've entered a few game competitions, and it is always the games with the best graphics that win, even if the gameplay is not as good as some of the other games. I really want the good programmers to be able to stand a chance against the good artists.

Of course you could try to team up with an artist. However, I don't know how many there are in this forum.
Drew Cameron
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 19:59
ANOTHER retro compo? I get that people aren't all up to coding complex things but I think the community could be pushed to create something other than arkanoid clones and 3d versions of centipede...again.

I guess it's just a nostalgia trip for the older members here.

The best competition idea was the Alienware one! My two cents.

Mnemonix
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Posted: 3rd May 2008 00:52
you make an interesting and fair point Drew. I think the retro idea is set in stone now but maybe we will have a competition next time that allows people to do something more elaborate.

That said you can push the boundaries of DBPs technical limits with an idea as narrow as a retro comp.

Think of breakout with stunning psychedelic 3d graphics. Not out of the question for this competition.

I think people who have good creativity skills and good art skills and good programming skills will excel at this competition.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Scraggle
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Posted: 3rd May 2008 10:39
Quote: "I think the retro idea is set in stone now"


Is anything else 'set in stone', like dates prizes etc.?



AndrewT
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Posted: 3rd May 2008 21:35
Quote: "I think people who have good creativity skills and good art skills and good programming skills will excel at this competition."


I think people who have good creativity skills and good art skills and good programming skills would excel at any competition.

But I'm all for the idea, I haven't used DBP much in over a month, it'd be a good way to get back into it.

90% of statistics are completely inaccurate.
Chris K
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Posted: 3rd May 2008 22:01
Can we get an official word?

Let's go with Retro-themed.

This can include remakes or original games in retro genres, maybe retro looking.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
David R
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Posted: 4th May 2008 17:11 Edited at: 4th May 2008 17:12
Quote: "I think people who have good creativity skills and good art skills and good programming skills will excel at this competition.
"


I think that's the problem - it's a very narrow focus. Assuming it's more retro remakes rather than retro style, there is little or no room for improving gameplay - the mechanics are solid already, and the best that can be done is a few powerups etc. Therefore, the focus then hinges on the visuals.

And considering a) How many retro remakes/styled compos we've had and b) The 'unfair' distribution of good artists* etc, I don't think this concept is a very good fit :/

As Drew said, I think we need to push the boat out a bit more in terms of theme, because the focus upon retro is becoming... well, uninteresting.

* We have some amazing artists/visual people, but they are few in number, or are limited to the "same few" people that we know are good artists etc.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
dark coder
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Posted: 4th May 2008 18:07
I don't see what the issue is about artists, if you don't have artists in your team or aren't capable of producing art for your games then it's only you to blame. A retro games compo is very lenient in this respect as pretty much all retro games(compared to modern day games) have very poor graphics. I'm not saying the graphics are of a lower quality than they are now, or that the artists weren't as good, but because consoles or systems back then were highly limited, every CPU cycle counted, these days you can get away with amazingly inefficient code and still have something that works. Due to being a retro compo you have to pick a game and either make a clone of it or more a more modern day remake of it, so by default I don't think judges should be expecting any Crysis quality graphics game, but making a 3D breakout game for instance would suffice, and wouldn't require complex artwork, the same for anything else, sure you could make mind blowing graphics with lots of complicated shaders and particle systems but how would that be similar to the game you're basing it off? You can guarantee that, that game's primary goal wasn't the graphics so if yours suddenly is, then you must not be making a remake of it.

Sure there are some retro games that if made 3D would require amazing amounts of coding and artwork, but that's your fault for picking the game if that's the case, there are plenty of games with more basic graphical elements to them that can still be fun but require minimal art. What's the difference between this and a free for all compo like last time? As almost all retro games will have basic graphics, so more isn't expected, but if it's a make whatever game you like compo, people will look at modern day releases to compare against, these days graphics seem to be the main selling point(or is it that the game must be an MMORPG and make you waste all day playing it?) so your game would be expected to have reasonable graphics.

So when does the compo start anyway?

coolgames
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:26
Quote: "I don't see what the issue is about artists, if you don't have artists in your team or aren't capable of producing art for your games then it's only you to blame."


I disagree. Sorry, but not all of us have a "team." It will be hard for all the non-artist programmers entering a contest to have their own artist, seeing as there aren't nearly as many artists as programmers. I really think we need a contest where artwork isn't too much of a factor. Every contest I've been in, all the winning games have been the games with the best artwork.
BiggAdd
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:39 Edited at: 5th May 2008 19:42
I think all the current judges will be able to see if a game is technically outstanding, even if the artwork isn't up to scratch.

Its unfair to artists who have little coding skills if a competition restricts on the art.
The contests are meant to award the people who excel in game creation, Not programming skill.

I completely agree with darkcoder. He is a very talented programmer, yet he has spent his own time learning how to create art, model and program shaders. It would be unfair to him if the competition limited his abilities.

Xsnip3rX
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:58
i'd like to submit my banner,

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 6th May 2008 00:53
I agree with Dark Coder. Also, what the judges see is gameplay, art, and so on. I've seen some compos (like Alenware) where the winning games weren't nearly as fun as some of the lower scored games, though media is criteria to jugde by, and it should be judged. Coding is important so that you can realize whatever game you want to make. If you're great at coding but can't think of good gameply, replay, story, or artwork, and can't get good music, no way should you win, you've done poorly in the most of the important areas of gaming. So stop complaining. This IS a forum, and you don't need a team to request artwork and models, there are plenty of artists here who seem happy to help someone in need.

I am never interested in competitions comparing coding skills, because I either don't care to learn how to code it (as in I'm learning something else at the moment), or know I code slowly and wouldn't be able to compete. I want to make something judged the way a game is judged, by how good the game is, and part of that is media. And there are ways of getting around needing good media, and Dark Coder is right to say that a retro compo is the least determined by media. The last retro compo (and puzzle compo also), were NOT determined by media, but by the best game. It was pretty clear the winners deserved to win. I can't say about the Nvidia compo, as I didn't get to play much more than the winning games. I can say they were very good though, and both had a ton of effort put into them.

As to retro, yeah, it's pretty outdated. But it works as a theme, especially if you can make a game in a retro style rather than remaking a game. Honestly I'd love to make a retro style game, using my own stuff. That would be fun and pretty original, I think. I could use just a few modern game devices to make it interesting...

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 6th May 2008 04:45 Edited at: 6th May 2008 04:46
edit: never mind

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