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Work in Progress / BlitzTerrain

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kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Dec 2009 22:33
Just released a new demo!

This shows off a new feature I added into exclusion mapping. The function is:
BT SetTerrainExclusionmapThreshold TerrainID,threshold

This allows you to use a heightmap as an exclusion map and exclude anything under the set threshold. Which is perfect for water.

The demo system now supports Anisotropic filtering from my Anisotropic Filtering DLL. So you can now view terrains with better texture quality than before, there is an option to turn this off.

The demo shows exclusion mapping and LOD working together. Try looking at the demo in wireframe mode(F2) to get a better look at how many polygons are rendering.

Heres the download: http://www.devstorm.co.uk/download/file.php?id=37

Hassan
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Posted: 1st Jan 2010 06:31
mind making a run in 1366x768? =D

kaedroho
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Posted: 1st Jan 2010 12:56
Open up one of the .bat files and change the settings inside.

Easy

Hassan
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Posted: 1st Jan 2010 13:08 Edited at: 1st Jan 2010 21:40
alright, to be honest, never knew you could change bat files, thought they're like exe's xD

kaedroho
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Posted: 1st Jan 2010 14:49
Just right click and press edit.

KISTech
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Posted: 1st Jan 2010 20:14
Tis truly a Happy New Year.

Can't wait for the release.

KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 18:04
How are things coming along? Any closer to a release?

kaedroho
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 20:00 Edited at: 8th Jan 2010 20:01
Just working on getting arran millers plugin SDK out. I only have 37 DBPro function calls in the entire plugin now so it really isn't needed very much anymore. This should decrease loading time and exe size.

Duffer
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Posted: 9th Jan 2010 11:13
Hi Kaedroho,

How are the load and save commands coming

And the brush commands?

Any chance of an auto paint type commands (the sort of thing we discussed earlier on the thread) whereby the terrain is automatically painted by pixel with the colour by pixel according to the height at that point?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Masqutti
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 16:04
Hi!

I'm kinda new to DB and ofc Blitzterrain systems and everything.

I've been trying to get this thing working for some time and nothing seems to help.. I downloaded the 1.05 Version, and unpacked it to DB folders..

Somewhere in the forums i found this Terraindemo_V2.rar or something, and it worked well. But there's a confusion. that demo doesn't use any of the commands described @ http://bt.blitzwerks.co.uk/Help/index.html

Those are whole different thing. So I assume the demo really wasn't Blitzterrain?!

Well now i'm trying to do with those commands listed in that page, but without success. Let's say all the other commands seems to work "fine", as they don't report any errors. But in example, BT Update/UT Update cameranumber, doesnt work. It says illegal object number. There's no way it it illegal as default cam is 0, and i've even tried 1 and made a camera before that.

If I forget about that command and just run the program, nothing comes to the screen. I guess those commands do something coz there's no errors, but instead of drawing these supernice terrains, it ens up black screen. But not jammed. I may print screen fps() the the screen while loop and it returns em ok and the value changes..

Here's the example code i tried:


So this is supposed to make a terrain but nothing happens, and the BT update makes the error if used.. Plz.. Help I'm using Dark basic professional free edition(the one with adv.banner in editor)

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
Masqutti
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 16:10
And it'd be worth of doing some simple examples that newbs could see how the commands work There are lots of at devstorm forums, but none of em seems to work with my system..(?)

http://devstorm.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=40

Here we have loads of cool demos. none of em works for me.. what's the deal :S ? I guess i've installed blitzterrain rightway, dll is in user-plugins and keywords at their place.. etc..

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
BMacZero
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 16:14
@Masqutti
I find that one of the annoying things about BlitzTerrain is that there are 3 or 4 versions out there you can pick up, which are for the most part incompatible with each other. Do what I'm doing: wait for the next release (the big one), and build everything around that one.

kaedroho
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 19:30 Edited at: 10th Jan 2010 19:35
Quote: "Somewhere in the forums i found this Terraindemo_V2.rar or something, and it worked well. But there's a confusion. that demo doesn't use any of the commands described @ http://bt.blitzwerks.co.uk/Help/index.html"


That demo doesn't use Blitzterrain, It uses an old, outdated plugin called advanced terrain.

Quote: "Well now i'm trying to do with those commands listed in that page, but without success. Let's say all the other commands seems to work "fine", as they don't report any errors. But in example, BT Update/UT Update cameranumber, doesnt work. It says illegal object number. There's no way it it illegal as default cam is 0, and i've even tried 1 and made a camera before that."


This must be a bug. The system calls DBPro functions internally, maybe one of the function calls inside calls something wrong.

You need to add something called a build loop. The build loop was invented so people can add their own loading bars. You can't get round it in 1.05. This code should work.




Quote: "Here we have loads of cool demos. none of em works for me.. what's the deal :S ? I guess i've installed blitzterrain rightway, dll is in user-plugins and keywords at their place.. etc.."


Those demos were made before blitzterrain was even ported to C++. The DBPro system worked differently to the C++ system.


The reason why things keep changing is because I keep finding better ways to do things. BlitzTerrain 2.00 (formerly 1.06) will be the first non beta release, meaning that I will not add anything which will break any code.

@Duffer, I still haven't started them yet. But I am now happy with the internal structures so this will be added very soon.




Anyway, Update time!!

Just rewritten the delete command and its working fine with no memory leak.

I did a test to create 100 terrains and delete them all. no ram gain between I started the test and finished the test. The test took 17 seconds to create and delete 100 terrains.

I also fixed a crash bug today. I found it while making the previous test. When you make at least 3 terrains it used to crash. This is now fixed.


Heres a list of the things I need to do before the release (not in any order)

Auto Recovery (recovers the terrain on alt tab)
Loading/Saving
Finnish the rendering engine (add shaders, etc)
Environment mapping (a simple feature but it will be used for multi detail mapping in the future)
The 'BT get point excluded' function needs finnishing.
Fix pinholes


We have also agreed on what features will be in which version of blitzterrain. I will publish this soon.

Duffer
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 20:28 Edited at: 10th Jan 2010 20:33
@ Kaedroho -

Sounds really good - tell us a little more about the "add shaders" thing...

Any way your Blitzerrain could support water shaders?

[edit]

Also, any RTMMS commands in basic v2?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 20:42
As BlitzTerrain has its own rendering engine, I must also add support for shaders into the rendering engine too. This is quite simple though.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 21:14 Edited at: 10th Jan 2010 21:17
Looking great. I do have 1 question about your seem fixing though. Years ago I wrote a sort of seem matching code to let terrains of different resolutions merge with each other and I used a slightly different and easier method which has 0 chance of pinholes or mismatch of poly edges. It uses no rounding and no calcs really other than simple math. I just used the current positions of the terrains to make a totally new set of polys on the edge of the terrain with higher res (more polys) and it actually cut down the poly count as well. It would look like this in the screen shot attached. Where your's has 4 polys on the seam mine has 3. The difference in appearance may have been slightly different, but worked good. Just wondering why you didn't do something similar.

[edit] Oh yeah and don't forget to email me when you have the full version for me to buy

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kaedroho
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 21:33
I used ordinary vertex manipulation because its faster to move just a few vertices than to change the object. This has to be updated in realtime so the method had to be fast. Also, the LOD seam fixing code isn't what is causing the pinholes. The pinholes are there anyway because the sectors are different meshes. I have no idea why it does this for me but not for other people. Its done it in every terrain engine I've ever made. My solution to it though is simple. Every second vertex on the edge must be moved a very small amount (otherwise you form seams) outwards so it is intersecting the sector next to it. Another idea I came up with and this has been tested and it works. Is to draw a line around the top and right sides of the sector (the sector under will draw a line on the bottom as its top line, etc). This would be slower and its hard to do over excluded/reduced areas.

Masqutti
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 21:55
Hi!

Thank you for the answer kaedroho!!

But the code doesn't work still. No errors from the compiler. But as the program starts, it'll just come crashing down... no error reports..

In the help it says that all the images have to be 32-bit colour? Well i use these *.bmp that support only 24 bit. can it be causing this?? Have you tried did that snippet work perfectly for you ?

If there should be 32bit images, what's the filetype you recommend?

Thanks!

I'll sure wait for the v2.00 !! but gotta check this too ;D

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
Masqutti
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 22:51 Edited at: 11th Jan 2010 12:24
oh yeah, and is there something that i should know about that FreeObjectId variable, that hasn't been assigned to anything else.. ?



edit:YEY I GOT IT WORKING !! Thank you!

edit: I have on more question.. I'm making a terrain editor, and you can have a terrain heightmap if you like, but if not it uses defaultmap thats just a black image. I tested it and somehow it returns noise to the terrain heights(?!) Is there anything that makes values go inaccurate, even as the color was black(0,0,0)? It maybe that the height of the terrain is overly high and enforces such noise.

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 13:24
Loading and Saving commands are next on my list!!!

Duffer has waited patiently for these commands for nearly a year now.

Duffer
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 21:13
Hah! Always kept the faith!

Anyhows, Kaedroho - could you wet our appetite on v2 with a list of what will be in it?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 21:24 Edited at: 13th Jan 2010 21:24
Loading and saving commands are now started!

The functions that are being added:

BT LoadTerrain(FileName,ObjectID)

This loads a terrain to the state it would be in just after the BuildTerrain function. Hence why you need an object ID as well. You will need to generate the terrain before viewing it. This command returns the TerrainID of the terrain.

BT SaveTerrain(TerrainID,FileName)

This saves the terrain set in the first parameter to the output file set in the second parameter. The terrain must be build (doesn't have to be generated though).

kaedroho
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Posted: 13th Jan 2010 21:24
Quote: "Anyhows, Kaedroho - could you wet our appetite on v2 with a list of what will be in it?"


I will release a list shortly.

kaedroho
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 10:50
I have the entire file format planned out now. And most of the Save Terrain function is completed and works!

I will finnish the save terrain function tonight hopefully and make a start on the load terrain function.

Textures and detailmaps will not be saved in the file, but environment maps and quadmaps (stores height, exclusion, rotation and reduction in 1 map) will. I might also add compression later on.

Duffer
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 14:55
@ Kaedroho,

Excellent.

Sure you have some good reasons, but why not include the detailmaps and texture in the file format? Wouldnt it save time?

(Against the background of the rest of this plugin, tempted to say who cares, just wondered though)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 14th Jan 2010 17:19 Edited at: 14th Jan 2010 17:24
The interface for blitzterrains are DBPro objects. Basically, blitzterrain copies render data from a DBPro object (set in build terrain or load terrain) before rendering. The problem is that things like Textures and detailmaps, are things that only DBPro can set, and if I make it use my own texturing system, BlitzTerrain will lose flexibility. The only way around it is to get a free image id from the user. But as there isn't always a texture and a detailmap assigned to a terrain, It could cause errors where users decide to load a terrain and do edits to the texture/detailmap, but load in a terrain without a texture or detailmap. So it would also decrease the flexibility of users engines.

Another thing I could do, is make it open the terrain file and load the image in a separate function. The problem with this is its going to have to search through the file from the beginning to find it, because I have designed the file format to have continuous read/write so I couldn't add an index.

For those who don't know. Continuous read/write is when you have a file format which has its data in a certain order so it doesn't have to jump about the file. It just reads it straight from start to end.


So basically, I found textures and detail maps are not possible to add without decreasing speed or reducing flexibility.


Actually, ignore all that. I can do it the first method. But if there is no image, I'll just make it return a blank image. Or if 0 is set as the parameter, it wont bother to load anything

NightX
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 12:16
Is there a DGDK version of blitz terrain i could use? and if so how would i use it, is there a demo??

kaedroho
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 12:21
There is a beta version available from the devstorm forums.

www.devstorm.co.uk

Scroll down to Blitzwerks, click blitzterrain and its near the top.

That includes a GDK libary + includes and a demo with source code. However that is very old. The new version will be released later this month.

NightX
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 13:03
Sweet thanks!

Matty H
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Posted: 15th Jan 2010 19:25 Edited at: 15th Jan 2010 19:27
Just checking in, we have still got our eye on this for the S3GE(super 3D game engine) for DarkGDK, someone said they are definitely buying this when its released, it was going to be free, is this still the case?

Edit: just seen in your sig(link) that its a free plug-in, good luck completing this.
kaedroho
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 00:44 Edited at: 16th Jan 2010 00:45
It will be free, but there will also be sold versions with a few more features.



Save terrain command is now complete!!

I've done a few tests but really the main test would be to see if it loads.

The tests that I have done are speed and memory leaks.


The first test I done was calculated the size of the outputted file manually and checked it against the real thing. Its passed this test .

The second test i did was a speed test. I saved out 100 terrains, into separate files. The size of each file was 2.5MB. It took 1912ms (yes that's just under 2 seconds) to save all 100 files out. It comes to 19.1 ms per file. I would say that it passed this test .

The last test was a RAM memory leakage test, after saving out all of these 100 terrains I checked to see if the RAM increased. It didn't increase at all, so I think this test passed too.

KISTech
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 02:16
One step closer to Terrain Bliss..

um, I mean BlitzTerrain.

Duffer
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 11:22 Edited at: 16th Jan 2010 11:32
@ Kaedroho - top dollar -

With the Save command, is it saving in texture [/and detail map]?

With the RTTMS commands, aside from the brush commands you already had in the earlier version and are looking to include, and the paint by pixel/height command and paint point commands, for the priced-version you could consider (for the future/ paid version!):-

- various types of 'weathering' commands, glacial effect commands, river-run commands, perhaps a couple of 'create feature' commands with some parameters - like create dunes (area), create canal (line), create road (line), create path (slightly varied line), create riverbed (slightly varied line), create mountain, etc.

- another thing to consider would be a command to set sea level, generate coastline, even create island/continent, preferably using fractal algos

- these might tally nicely with a command painting the terrain by pixel according to height (above)

- also, with a command 'flattening' an area of terrain, you could add in some variance/random to that - ideal if say you were going to place a settlement on a map? etc.

- at some point I think there was some discussion also in relation to stitching or autoseaming the edges of two terrains together (maybe in relation to terrain streaming) but of course this could be done manually when designing terrains.... ie. being lazy.

just a few ideas - mainly rehashed from earlier in the thread and your site.

[edit]

how could I have forgotten! planet (spherical) terrain creation??

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 23:46
At last the loading/saving commands are done!!!!

Both LoadTerrain and SaveTerrain are both working nicely!!

I haven't done any performance tests yet though... I will do them a bit later.


Wooooo!!

kaedroho
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Posted: 16th Jan 2010 23:53
I still have to add texture and detailmap. I will do that now.

Thanks for your ideas. I haven't yet fully decided on features which will be in each version. My basic idea is:

Free version: To be better than Advanced Terrain in features and speed.
Standard version: For general everyday hobbyists.
Pro version: People who like streamed terrain and like making planets. It also will feature my Quad reduction algorithm I developed a few months ago. (it merges quads together in flat areas, etc)

I haven't taken it down any further than that really.

The RTTMS commands were meant to be locked in earlier versions. But they are a bit buggy though because my code to stop them working is only half working.

Airslide
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 01:49
IMO, you should only have a Free and Advanced version. It would be easier to handle updates with and make the plugin a lot more useful for more people.

Of course, whatever you end up with is fine, I'm just waiting on the plugin to be finished

kaedroho
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 13:18
Just tested the load function. Blitzterrain loads a terrain in 32 ms!

The terrain is 256x256 and 2.5MB in size. Looking at the speed of delete terrain. You could probably load a terrain, display it and then delete it. Every single loop and still maintain 30 FPS.

Hassan
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 15:31
sounds good!

The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 18:36
Quote: "IMO, you should only have a Free and Advanced version"


Many of the features included in the Pro edition would sell for £20 as standalone plugins so it makes more sense to release a Standard version which provides the premium functionality that most users would require. The Pro version is aimed purely at serious projects which require those extra features.

KISTech
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 18:52
Put me down for the Pro version.

Diggsey
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 21:17
It would work better if you just had free and standard versions. Otherwise you have to deal with people upgrading from standard to pro, who don't want to pay the full price.

Airslide
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 21:44
I say just standard and free because then the standard version can be a little more expensive and you'll probably get more pay overall - and those who think they will only need the standard version may be pleasantly surprised at the usefulness of some of the other features.

Duffer
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 22:08 Edited at: 17th Jan 2010 23:21
I'd be willing to pay for the Pro version (within the bounds of reason)- as Diggsey points out, will the site be offering discounts for people who upgrade free-standard-pro?

Suppose it will be down to Kaedroho to determine what would be in the standard and what would be in the pro version. In many ways, I'm more interested to see what's in the standard version that's not in the free version...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Airslide
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 23:08
Quote: "as Airslide points out, will the site be offering discounts for people who upgrade free-standard-pro?"


I didn't point that out, Diggsey did

Duffer
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 23:21
Doh! (edited above)

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kaedroho
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 00:02 Edited at: 18th Jan 2010 00:07
Right, Blitzterrain now works with the DBPro rendering engine!

This will solve holes forming in the terrain when the terrain renders after transparent objects. Thanks to Lee, its now been put just before Basic3D and just after Matrix3D in the render order!


I will make a demo soon which will use the new loading function I made. I might make another 2048x2048 demo.


The free - standard - pro idea was just an idea, and not definite. I will release information about this later on this month when I am closer to release.

Masqutti
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 09:08
Hi!

As Blitzterrain 2.0 is going to be released shortly.. This is going to be kinda old issue maybe. But i'll ask it anyway!!


I'm testing shaders and have this Culling problem. I'm using Biltzterrain And then tried fresnel water by evolved with this(an island surrounded by water). Outcome was pleasant, except some error that occurs, mostly at "uphill" of the terrain. It culls out the terrain tiles that still should be visible in the camera making huge blocks to be excluded.

I guess it has something to do with those extra cameras that take the view for reflection and refraction (like the terrain calculates the culling from these cameras, not the main ones). But how to overcome this problem?! Is the problem Blitzterrain itself or the shader :S ?

How does blitzterrain render the culling depending of the camera? Is there a way to tell it to check camera 0 for culling, not the others? Or if this is a known multicamera-issue.. Is it going to be fixed in 2.0!! ;D

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 11:11 Edited at: 18th Jan 2010 11:12
Yep that is already fixed!

In version 2.0 you have control over the LOD and camera updates.

Heres an example

lets say that camera 0 is the main cam, camera 1 is the refraction cam and camera 2 is the reflection cam.



BT remembers the order which you called these commands and calls them inside the render function (which is called from the DBP rendering engine).


The only way around it in version 1 is to get ianms matrix1utils and make a precamera callback. Then call BT Update cameraid from that function.

Masqutti
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 11:56
ok !!

Awesome!!

thank you for letting the basics of blitzterrain to be free tho those features sounds great that's in the commercial version, but i'll have to keep things free atm So thank you! ^^

Even how grateful i'm coz of this, i'm sorry about keeping your time busy asking newbie questions.. until I'll be more experienced. (Be aware.. then my questions prob. gonna get difficult !!)

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 18th Jan 2010 13:27 Edited at: 18th Jan 2010 13:28
Masquitti, No problem

I'm planning on releasing a new demo later. Its the same as the water demo but it shows off the fast loading system.

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