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Work in Progress / BlitzTerrain

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Airslide
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Posted: 19th Jan 2010 00:44
How fast are the vertex-manipulation/brush commands going to be? Fast enough to say, set off an explosive and create a crater?

Masqutti
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Posted: 19th Jan 2010 08:58 Edited at: 19th Jan 2010 08:59
I guess that's the point stated earlier yes..

Kaedroho, a suggestion just came to my mind Is there posiibility to actually use alpha masking on texture of the terrain !? I mean, the detailmap already has "kindof" but the basetexture. Would be so cool to blend it with water as the groundlevel goes under the waterlevel etc. it'd be smooth. And well anything you could imagine.. just crossed my mind would it be performance-friendly ?

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 19th Jan 2010 10:06
Quote: "How fast are the vertex-manipulation/brush commands going to be? Fast enough to say, set off an explosive and create a crater?"


Early tests show that you can edit every single vertex on a 256x256 terrain and still maintain 100 FPS.


Quote: "Kaedroho, a suggestion just came to my mind Is there posiibility to actually use alpha masking on texture of the terrain !? I mean, the detailmap already has "kindof" but the basetexture. Would be so cool to blend it with water as the groundlevel goes under the waterlevel etc. it'd be smooth. And well anything you could imagine.. just crossed my mind would it be performance-friendly ?"


This would be possible with the multidetailmapping feature. It isnt made yet (it will use a shader), but you will hopefully be able to have up to 20 detailmaps on a single terrain. You would have to paint the base texture blue where the floor of the water is.

Masqutti
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Posted: 19th Jan 2010 10:13
ok

I instantly had an idea of a game of an cupido or something running on the clouds, and those would be somewhat transparent here and there and you could see the ground far below

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 20:28
I just fixed a big bug today. This bug has been around since I added in frustum culling so its been in every demo which I've released over the past few months.

The bug was simply caused by a typo in the frustum culling code. I originally made the code to support 6 planes but I removed the near and far planes to make it faster. Except I forgot to stop it from looping through them.

This caused:

Random disappearing of sectors when camera is moved away from terrain.
Some terrains only rendering half with further culling issues on that half.
Looping through extra plains slowed down the culling system a little.
A system which if a box is in front of all of planes, it would cull the whole box and boxes inside it (Part of the QuadTree culling algorithm), this made QSP not as fast as it should be.

Well, I set this value to 4 and gained another 100 - 200 FPS (up from 1000-1300).

Plotinus
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 21:19
It's funny how a stupid little thing like that can have such an effect. You must be pretty pleased to have ironed out that one.
kaedroho
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 22:23 Edited at: 21st Jan 2010 22:23
Yep, I have been searching for that bug for ages now. Its rather annoying to find that a number set 2 stages too high managed to take about 2 days off your work time!

Just two more bugs to fix. One which causes crashes when the scale is set to a real number (caused by floating point inaccuracies) and a bug that forms tiny gaps in between sectors (this has been in all of my terrain engines and I still haven't found the source to the problem, but I have found a solution).

Duffer
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 10:50
@ Kaedroho,

May have missed it - but what's the "BlitzTerrain SDK" - is it intended to be Blitzterrain (Standard/Pro) together with a GUI to develop the actual terrains and save out as Blitzterrains (having looked at the Blitzterrain site).

Also, how goes it?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 00:52 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 13:08
I've just launched a new download section on my website. I have uploaded the old BlitzTerrain demos up there. They were made before BlitzTerrain was even made into a dll! Originally, the source codes were included to show what the coding would be like when the dll was released. I kept the codes there, but they will not compile with any version of blitzterrain. (Some of them may be able to be ported to work with BlitzTerrain 1.00 - 1.05 though).

Downloads:

ZIP (20MB)
RAR (13MB)


The demos which are included in this pack are:
Black Hole
Blend Shader
Demo 4
Terrain Editor
Environment Mapping
Exclusion

kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 14:18 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 14:19
I just made a water+terrain demo with blitzterrain. The demo was originally made for advanced terrain but i put blitzterrain in it for testing.

I compared it with advanced terrain and with blitzterrain and here are the results.

Advanced Terrain:
100 - 150FPS

BlitzTerrain (Without LOD!):
250 - 350FPS


I will release the demo shortly. But first, I want to quickly see the speed when BlitzTerrain has LOD enabled.

kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 15:32
BlitzTerrain 2.0 is just around the corner!

As of about 5 minutes ago, the DLL has a good enough number of features and every single bug I have encountered has been fixed.

This means that the BlitzTerrain DLL and LIB will both be released shortly, I will make some documentation and tutorials first before releasing it though. There is a BIG difference between BlitzTerrain 1 and BlitzTerrain 2.00.

I am going to aim to release BlitzTerrain on Feburary 1st 2010.

Plotinus
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 15:38
That's great news. Well done on an amazing programming feat.
Duffer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:03 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 16:08
@ Kaedroho,

That is fantastic news. A very substantial contribution to the DBPro community in a relatively short period of development. Top dollar. Your [moral] reward will be in heaven. Your [financial] reward will follow when standard and pro versions released.

p.s. looking forward to the demo of Blitzterrain 2 with the water shader.

p.p.s. let me know if you want any help just checking help files etc for v.2

p.p.p.s. are load and save commands in v.2 (and will v.2 saved files be compatible in effect with standard and pro later versions? thinking about cracking on with projects now using v.2 for now?)

p.p.p.p.s. are any RTTMS commands in v.2?

(regardless of above, well done! phenomenal achievement)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:20
Thanks for all the nice comments!!


Quote: "p.s. looking forward to the demo of Blitzterrain 2 with the water shader."



Here it is:
ZIP
RAR


Quote: "p.p.s. let me know if you want any help just checking help files etc for v.2"


Thanks! I will let you know when I have made them!


Quote: "are load and save commands in v.2 (and will v.2 saved files be compatible in effect with standard and pro later versions? thinking about cracking on with projects now using v.2 for now?)"


Yes they are, and I designed the system to make it easy to add to the format but still allowing backwards compatibility.


Quote: "p.p.p.p.s. are any RTTMS commands in v.2?"


They wont be in the free version. I have decided that this would be a standard and pro only feature. Sorry!

Duffer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:38 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 17:13
@ Kaedroho,

No worries with the RTTMS - will happily pay as soon as you can get it together for the standard and pro. Presume, practically, that standard version will come out before pro version?

Going to check out the water shader demo now...

[edit]

With AdvancedTerrain - between 41-52 fps, mainly about 52fps

With BlitzTerrain - between 71-82 fps, markedly lower when water nearby / looking at water (at 71-72 fps) - but presuming BlitzTerrain is running with LOD?

So for my system appreciably faster in BlitzTerrain - but not such a large gap as when without the water shader... when BlitzTerrain massively faster...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Matty H
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:54
Is the DarkGDK version done too?
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:55
Quote: "Is the DarkGDK version done too? "


Yep!

Matty H
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 16:57
Wow, quickest response ever, cool.
Can't wait to try this out with my physics plug-in.
The Slayer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:01
Nice work, kaedroho!

But, when running Blitzterrain2 demo, I get the error: 'Could not understand command at line 124', and the command is: BT Set ATMode 1. I have the Blitzterrain.dll in the right folder, so what could be the problem?

Cheers

Slayer rules!!! Yeaaah, man!
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:11
You probably have blitzterrain 1 or an early beta of blitzterrain 2. That command was added yesturday.

The Slayer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:21
Sorry, my bad, I assumed it was the latest version. I'll have to wait a little longer then, but that's no problem. Nice work!

Cheers

Slayer rules!!! Yeaaah, man!
Duffer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:21
@ Kaedroho - should say with my speedtest above that I have Windows Vista Home Premium, Intel Core 2 Duo CPU E6850, 3GHz+, 8Gb RAM, GeForce 8800 Ultra.... was BlitzTerrain Water AT demo exe with LOD with BlitzTerrain2?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:38
Nope, there is no LOD in that demo!

Duffer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:43
@ Kaedroho,

Weird - would expect it to have been a tad faster (not that I'm compainin') w/o LOD as with earlier demos... must be the water shader somehow?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:50 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 17:50
Well, it is rendering the scene 3 times. One for the main camera, one for Refraction and one for Reflection.

The demo was mainly to show that BlitzTerrain is a lot faster than AdvancedTerrain.

Duffer
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 17:51
all true.... what's your fps like on the two in comparison? what are your system specs?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Masqutti
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 11:13
wooo!!!! Can't wait ;D

- a m a z i n g -

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 17:10 Edited at: 25th Jan 2010 17:27
Masquitti, Thanks!


Duffer,

Advanced Terrain:
100 - 150FPS

BlitzTerrain (Without LOD):
250 - 350FPS

BlitzTerrain (With LOD):
300 - 500 FPS

My specs are:
AMD Athlon 64 4000+ X2 (2.1GHz Dual Core)
3GB RAM (800MHz)
Nvidia Geforce 9600GS with 768MB RAM
Windows 7 Ultimate!


Everyone,
I have re uploaded the demos. It now includes a blitzterrain demo with LOD. And the AdvancedTerrain demo now has the update terrain function in it. But as AdvancedTerrain isn't good with multiple cameras, There are culling issues.

Here it is:
ZIP
RAR

Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 18:35 Edited at: 25th Jan 2010 18:39
kaedroho,

i'd hoped this latest release would put to rest the "pinhole" issue; alas, it remains. using the skybox helped mask the holes (the "work-around" mentioned early on) but when contrasting colors are behind the terrain, they remain evident.

i'd downloaded the last no-lod demo and was about to post this before the forums disappeared (for many hours ). with the skybox textured in red (replacing the textures for it with solid red ones), they were much more visible. then, downloading this last version, they're a bit more prevalent (due to current lod technique).



my FPS was very good, tho. ranging 120-160 in the no-lod version.

i hate to keep bringing the pin-hole issue up (that's why i haven't posted in awhile on this. i knew you were working on it). but, when you posted "every single bug I have encountered has been fixed" i was pretty excited.

can you expand on why they exist? is it the floating point accuracy issue? have you considered trying to use integers only to remedy? i wish i could be more help

Virtual Nomad @ California, USA
AMD Phenomâ„¢ X4 9750 Quad-Core @ 2.4 GHz . 8 GB PC2-6400 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3650 @ 512 MB . Vista Home Premium 64 Bit

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kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 18:38 Edited at: 25th Jan 2010 19:02
I've changed the blend mode of the detailmap to 8. This makes the terrain a bit brighter and it the colour is pretty much the same as on the texture, instead of BlitzTerrain dulling it down.

While testing, I have found some pretty cool effects, like making the terrain look darker (how it used to be) would be cool for night time environments and making it really bright to make it look like a sunny environment. I will create a function called BT SetDetailBlendMode(TerrainID,blendmode) to set these blend modes. The blend modes are listed on the DirectX website, somewhere.


I didn't get round to making that workaround. Its still on my todo list.

My workaround is simple, but it may decrease the FPS a little. Simply, draw a line around each and every sector. I discovered when I render a wireframe and a solid terrain at the same time, the pinholes completely go!

The pinholes are not caused by the LOD. I still have no idea where they came from in the first place. They have been around in every single terrain engine I've ever made :S.

I've looked through the system step by step. The core system uses integers, it scales the final object to the scale you set, so you can set a floating point as the scale and it would still use integers to create the terrain



Anyway, for the GDK users, here's the BlitzTerrain Header. Obviously, you cant use it yet, but its just so you can see/comment on how I have done things. And get anything you don't like changed before the release.



Diggsey
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 19:03
@Kaedroho
Have you tried changing the floating point accuracy mode? You could also try making a vertex shader which rounds the vertex positions to 4 significant figures or something.

kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 19:21 Edited at: 25th Jan 2010 19:25
My method of solving it wont be so bad on FPS though.

My main demo which i develop with runs at about 900 - 1100 FPS. When I call DrawIndexedPrimitive twice for each sector every frame, it still doesn't go under 900FPS, and that's re rendering the entire sector!

Just tried rendering it 6 times a loop. And the FPS stayed above 400FPS!

Diggsey, Its set to precise.

kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 22:51
New Demo!!!
Shows off Loading commands (you will notice the loading speed has dropped)
Also shows off new blend modes.
And shows off exclusion commands (pretend the blue bit is water)


And the downloads:
RAR
ZIP

Matty H
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 00:42
Love the exclusion stuff, how do the exclude commands work?
When I create my collision triangle mesh will it also exclude these areas? allowing for access to underground bunkers or caves.
kaedroho
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 10:01 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 10:14
Yep, it excludes the heightdata from the RAM of that area too. So its impossible to recover the excluded areas in runtime unless you disable optimisation.

You just have to call a function 'BT SetTerrainExclusion' and set an exclusion map through that function. The exclusion map must be a monochrome or greyscale map. The darker areas are the areas which will be excluded, the lighter areas will not be excluded. You can set the threshold with the function 'BT SetTerrainExclusionThreshold'. There is also a function to check if a point or sector is excluded.

KISTech
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 20:12
Framerate is high ( > 1100 ) but movement is jerky. Looks like you changed your movement code, and introduced some movement delay or something.

Azunaki
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 08:16
this is amazing especially cant wait to see how this turns out in n3wtons project.

btw kaedroho im very impressed with how this has turned out. 900+ fps is insane(Granted that's before any game elements are added) this is the best terrain plug-in for dbp i know of. and is a must have for almost any game for dbp. can't wait for the advanced one to come out.

[url]http://myportfolio.x10hosting.com/[url]
visit my site.(still in progress)
kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 22:30
KISTech, thats to do with the timer based movement. The DBPro timer() function returns the number of millisecconds elapsed since the previous frame. As your experiencing and FPS of greater than 1000 FPS, occasionally it would return 0 but most of the time it would return 1. I have replaced it to use IanMs hi accuracy timer. The timer will now be accurate to up to 10000 FPS. Now all the jerkyness is gone.

Azunaki, Thanks

KISTech
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 18:16
Hmm. How about that. A bad thing coming from having a blazingly fast computer.

Duffer
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Posted: 30th Jan 2010 00:03
@ Kaedroho,

Been thinking about commands that would paint the BT Terrain texture (for pro version). Would you also have a command that identifies the point on the terrain (x,z) from x,y 2d screen co-ordinates ie. so you could use the mouse to pick the point on the terrain upon which to paint? (I am probably not explaining that very well - hopefully you get what I mean)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Duffer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2010 13:22 Edited at: 31st Jan 2010 13:29
@ Kaedroho,

Some other basic commands (you may have these covered) apart from bt get terrain height(terrainid,x,z):-

float = BT Get Terrain Max Height(terrainid,[worldflag])

(where the optional wordflag at 1 would give you instead the max height of the terrain within the 3d world, as opposed to local height...)

and

float = BT Get Terrain Min Height(terrainid,[worldflag])

float = BT Get Terrain Average Height(terrainid,[worldflag])

These might be useful, very useful, if you had a number of terrains and were streaming them... putting together the terrains world...?

and looking at my last post, the command would be something like

float = BT Get Terrain Point Height(terrainid,x,z,[worldflag]) - so again you could get either the local or world height at that point on the terrain?

and with picking the x and z of the BT terrain from the 2d co-ordinates on that particular camera:-

float = BT Pick Terrain Point X(terrainID, 2D_x, 2D_y, [optionalCameraID]) - where the optional camera gives the Camera Number otherwise current camera

and

float = BT Pick Terrain Point Z(terrainID, 2D_x, 2D_y, [optionalCameraID])

feasible?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2010 14:18
It might be better to add a raycast function and use it with DBPros Pick screen command. Then you have 2 extra features instead of just one .

Quote: "float = BT Pick Terrain Point X(terrainID, 2D_x, 2D_y, [optionalCameraID]) - where the optional camera gives the Camera Number otherwise current camera

and

float = BT Pick Terrain Point Z(terrainID, 2D_x, 2D_y, [optionalCameraID])"


It isnt a good idea to have this in 2 separate functions. You would have to transform the 2D coordinates into 3D twice if you want both positions meaning a slowdown. Instead, you could make this 1 function but have a few commands like BT GetVectorX(), BT GetVectorY(), etc.

I will add the worldflag to the Get ground height function. Also I will add make that function also be called get terrain point height so it matches the other functions.


Min height, Max height and Average height all are very easy to do. As each sector already has the min and max values set to make the frustum culling box. I will make these commands for each sector as well as just the whole terrain.


Thanks for your ideas, I will add them in shortly

Duffer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2010 14:31
@ Kaedroho,

Excellent - many thanks. Really dont want to slow you down in completing this. After I'd posted I wondered if you could do the x and z (from 2d) after calling firstly just the one command.... far better.



a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Masqutti
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Posted: 4th Feb 2010 10:32 Edited at: 4th Feb 2010 10:33


*Silence arrives as the people gather around watching for the omen to come.. breath is held as the rising of the new sight starts to clear in the eyes, that look yet into the darkness! Is it going to be the new promised land... Made by blitzTerrain!!!!"

Been quiet in here ;D

hmmmh.. that didn't compile
Xgame101
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 03:12
Hmm.... an idea suddenly pops into my head on the implementation of streaming terrain....

If you can realtime edit terrain could you simply move the terrain under your actor rather than the other way around?

I'm not sure how slow such a system would be but it looks possible since you have shown that vertex manipulation in realtime can be done.

just a thought I had please feel free to ignore it if I make no sense

Xgame101
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kaedroho
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 13:50 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 13:51
Yeah, The system will use a command called "BT ShiftTerrain Rows,collumns" and it would automatically load in the new parts.

Basically, this function will shift the whole terrain the number of set blocks. A block is 1/16th of the terrain (it will use a 4x4 grid).

The blocks that go far behind move to the front and change themselves into the new blocks, this makes it so I don't have to edit the entire terrain. It will load it in bit by bit each loop to prevent the game from suddenly pausing every time it streams. If you have a slow hard drive, a block may appear a little late but at least it didn't totally spoil the game.

On a normal detailed terrain, you would need a VERY slow hard drive to make this happen anyway.

Duffer
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 14:46
@ Kaedroho, for the hard of thinking like me, how does this terrain streaming - and that BT ShiftTerrain command - work with your main texture and detailmap texture? (sounds really useful btw).

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
BMacZero
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 22:28
*jumps up and down with expectation*

KISTech
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Posted: 11th Feb 2010 17:57
Much to quiet on this awesome project and on XenoPhysics.

Perhaps they are getting all their ducks in a row for a release????

(chewing on the other arm of the chair now in anticipation...)

kaedroho
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Posted: 13th Feb 2010 02:14
The first Beta of BlitzTerrain 2.00 is ready!!

The file will come with BlitzTerrain DLL and INI. With 5 DBPro examples.

Terrain Generation
LOD
Quad Rotation and Smoothing
Exclusion
Loading

The GDK release will be ready by next weekend. I have to rewrite the headers and make some examples first!

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