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Work in Progress / BlitzTerrain

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Eminent
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Posted: 5th Sep 2010 16:59
Sorry but I have to double post because the file uploader wont work and I only can attach one pic. This is the terrain.


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Indicium
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 15:02
That should work fine, set the heightmap to the first file, and set the texturemap to the second. If it's still not working, show us how?

Duffer
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 16:27
@ Kaedroho,

Couple of queries,

- Standard and Pro versions - can you confirm what you're looking at putting in both now and/or price and/or eta?
- Spherical Terrains - Standard or Pro? 4096x4096 max? How would you envisage the commands?
- What RTTMS commands in Standard? What additional in Pro?
- Environment commands - will it be based on 256 colours or 16bit?
- With the vertex 'painting' commands in RTTMS, as you say, we just need to alter the base texture/image - but could you create commands to allow someone to pick the correct vertices from the 2d coordinates (of mouse etc) and/or some code snippets on how to paint terrain?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 22:40
Quote: "Standard and Pro versions - can you confirm what you're looking at putting in both now and/or price and/or eta?"


Standard version - £25 - October 2010 (after release of DBP 7.6)
Pro version is all undecided but price will be about £30 - £40 and release date will be later this year or early next year.

Quote: "Spherical Terrains - Standard or Pro? 4096x4096 max? How would you envisage the commands?"


Pro.

The max heightmap size will be 4096x4096x6 as there will be 6 heightmaps. (Blitzterrain will use cubed spheres to make it easy to implement, I can just use the current system but curve each terrain).

Only a few changes will be made, there will be a new function to create spherical terrains:
TerrainID=BT CreateSphericalTerrain()

And set terrain heightmap will be modified to have a heightmapid parameter. This will set which side of the sphere the heightmap will be applied to.


Quote: "Environment commands - will it be based on 256 colours or 16bit?"


The environment map can be any amount of bits you want, just as long as your pc can handle the image and you dont set up more than 65536 environments!

BlitzTerrain creates an internal array of 16 bit integers with the same dimentions of the image. When you use add terrain environment, BlitzTerrain finds every point on the environment which matches the set colour and inserts is environment map id onto this array at the same spot where it was found. So when you need to find a point environment, this is all it does:

Environment=EnvironmentArray[x][y];

Instead of:

for(i=1;i<EnvironmentCount;i++)
{
if(Image[x][y].Colour==Environment[x][y].Colour)
Environment=i;
}


This method also saves ram because the inputted image could be 32 bit, and it would have to also be stored in a memblock to allow access to its pixel data.


Quote: "With the vertex 'painting' commands in RTTMS, as you say, we just need to alter the base texture/image - but could you create commands to allow someone to pick the correct vertices from the 2d coordinates (of mouse etc) and/or some code snippets on how to paint terrain?"


I'm working on an RTTMS plugin which will be open source. I'll add this feature in.

Duffer
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 23:26
@ Kaedroho,

Thanks for that. Good to hear about the 'painting addition' to RTTMS too.

When do we get to play with the RTTMS/Brush commands? Are they standard and/or pro (more of them with Pro) or just Pro?

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kaedroho
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 00:08 Edited at: 7th Sep 2010 00:09
They will be available in the standard edition. Source code will be included in the Pro edition.

Duffer
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 22:18
@ Kaedroho - excellent - thx

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kaedroho
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 22:57
Because I'm changing the way edges get fixed, I will need to make changes to the BlitzTerrain filetype. So instead of making BT 2.00 R3 (short for "Release 3") it will be called BT 2.01 R1.

I never acctually released the document which says what the BT filetype stores, the version of the filetype which is currently being used is attached if anyone is interested.

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kaedroho
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 23:19 Edited at: 7th Sep 2010 23:34
BlitzTerrain filetype 1.01 which will appear in BlitzTerrain 2.01 R1 is attached for those who are interested.

BlitzTerrain 2.01 will be able to load both filetypes but 2.00 will not be able to load filetype version 1.01.

I still need to add information about the vertex buffers for this to be complete. But people will get a basic idea on how the BlitzTerrain file type works from this.

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Duffer
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 00:43
@ Kaedroho,

Does/will the latest version save to the file the main and detailmap textures? Cant see it in there. Think you talked about this earlier in the thread but cant find it now - would inclusion of textures make it unwieldy? slow down load /save times?

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kaedroho
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 00:49
BlitzTerrain only has access to the uncompressed texture data which is stored in RAM. If I include it, the file size will shoot up high and writing good compressors takes alot of time. So I would rather leave it to DBPro to load them in seprately and apply them to the terrain.

Sixty Squares
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 00:50
Looks awesome, I'll probably be using this the next time I want to make a game with huge terrains

A few questions though. I've seen some shaders used in conjunction with BlitzTerrain before; is this easy to do? You said something somewhere about BlitzTerrain objects being different from DBPro objects... could I still apply my own textures to various texture stages with the TEXTURE OBJECT obj,stage,img command? Also, would the SET OBJECT EFFECT command work on the terrain object(s)? If this has been done before (and the source released), are there any links you could point me to?

Thanks.


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kaedroho
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 00:56
All the commands you said should work. You might find a few missing matrices but all the basic ones are there.

If you look on the WIP board, find a program made by smaas called "Terrain generator for DBPro and Blitz" (or something like that). Thats a demo made with blitzterrain which uses shaders and multitexturing.

Sixty Squares
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 01:14
Cool, thanks for the quick response .

I have seen smaas' dpost but I didn't know the source was included. Thanks again!


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kaedroho
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 23:16
Heres a quick screenshot of Quad Reduction.

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KISTech
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 01:59
So much anticipation. It's driving me CRAZY!!!

Mugen Wizardry
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 04:55
I know! O_O Me too! :3

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kaedroho
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 00:39 Edited at: 10th Sep 2010 00:43
Solved a crash bug today. Not sure if anyone got it but it made the new LOD seam system crash.

The crash was caused by the LOD map (a grid of chars which shows which parts of the terrain are what detail, used for LOD seam fixing). When the LOD map was created it wasnt initialised so the array was filled with random numbers. The LOD seam system will look at this and believe that a sector is LOD level 200 and something, then crash because that LOD level didnt acctually exist.


I have also got the new LOD seam fix system fully up and running. It will be able to fix seams between Quad Reduced sectors. Quad reduction demo coming soon!


Checklist for blitzterrain 2.01 R1: (these will appear in standard edition aswell)

Finnish off the rendering engine and make it feature every features of DBPros rendering engine which are useful for terrains (will use DBPro source as a guide to make sure I get everything in)

Add version 101 of the BlitzTerrain filetype. This will feature faster file loading/saving, smaller files and support for the new LOD seam system.


Checklist for standard release:
Quad Reduction
RTTMS (real time terrain modification)
16 bit heightmaps
RAW file support


Just so everyone knows, there will always be a free version of BlitzTerrain.

Mobiius
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 02:33
Have you sorted the crash on deleting/re-creating terrains yet?

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Weave
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Posted: 11th Sep 2010 22:17
Does blitz only get rendered to camera 0 as I was wondering if it could be reflected and refracted as in a water shader? Thx
kaedroho
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 13:46
Quote: "Have you sorted the crash on deleting/re-creating terrains yet?"


I did try testing, but it didnt crash. Youll need to tell me exactly how your creating the terrains and what features you are using before I can track down the problem.

Quote: "Does blitz only get rendered to camera 0 as I was wondering if it could be reflected and refracted as in a water shader? Thx "


Try using BT SetTerrainCamera CameraID

You will need to render your terrain once for each camera.

I would reccomend doing something like this:



Weave
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 18:53
Aha...that works like a dream! Thanks
Duffer
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 20:07
a passing thought:-

if someone could do a plugin that sorted water/lakes/rivers on terrain with shaders - made it simple - it would be a seller...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Weave
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Posted: 13th Sep 2010 18:24 Edited at: 13th Sep 2010 18:40
Kaedroho, I have a working collision system for use with your blitz terrain plugin, but find when I reposition the terrain, say in this instance downwards to take the terrain below the waterline, the terrains collision stays at the old values. To counter this I have simply changed the polygon creation to the new height when I turn them physical....I was wondering if the terrain can be moved and reunited with its data successfully as my character shadow comes out disassociated to the character as if it is using the collision planes to place the shadow....as this doesnt happen when I walk into a building...his shadow is fine again...? Is it a question of when I call it to be rendered? ie make the terrain here- position it here -now render it at new location ? Thanks
Weave
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Posted: 13th Sep 2010 21:53
After a bit of delving....when character is at y=0 the shadow is correctly at his feet, when rising in altitude the shadow `wanders off`, yet when he walks on a .x building above y=0 the shadow is cast correctly. Was wondering if it was an issue with blitz?
Thx
Duffer
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Posted: 14th Sep 2010 20:02
@ Kaedroho,

Also, with Pro? version, will you include code or command to pick a point on a spherical terrain using 2d posn of x,y or mouse? (for RTTMS commands?)

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kaedroho
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Posted: 14th Sep 2010 23:13 Edited at: 14th Sep 2010 23:16
Longitude and latitude will be the way to do it. If you dont like trig, I will add a feature in to allow you to do it with a 3D point. It will just calculate the direction to that 3D point from the centre of the sphere and work out what longitude and latitude it is.


Weave, It could be... I am working on getting all the features of the DBPro Rendering engine into BlitzTerrain at the moment. I will look into that.


BlitzTerrain 2.01 R1 will be postponed. The release date is to be announced when I get a little more done. I have been concentrating on the standard release mostly in the past month so I havent got much done on the free version.

Mugen Wizardry
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yes. please do

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 16th Sep 2010 10:34
Hey karl, its me outscape, glad to see you still doing this, i finally decided to learn how to use blitz terrain instead of advanced terrain but um, how do i add another LOD?

I was just messing around with the quadtree example (awesome fps btw) and i saw this:

Quote: "//LOD
Terrain->SetLOD(3); //3 LOD Levels. Maximum is 255
Terrain->SetLODDistance(1,1000.0f); //LOD Distances start at one and go up to 1 less the LOD level count
Terrain->SetLODDistance(2,2000.0f);"


So i changed it to
Quote: "
//LOD
Terrain->SetLOD(4); //3 LOD Levels. Maximum is 255
Terrain->SetLODDistance(1,1000.0f); //LOD Distances start at one and go up to 1 less the LOD level count
Terrain->SetLODDistance(2,2000.0f);
Terrain->SetLODDistance(3,3000.0f);"


And it said invalid amount of LODs, any idea how i fix that?

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kaedroho
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Posted: 16th Sep 2010 20:57
Woops! I changed the maximum amount of LOD levels to 3 for the free version. Forgot to change the comments.

The Standard and Pro versions will have the 255 limit put back.

Dont worry about only being allowed 3 LOD levels. You can still get quite a performance boost from it.



I just finnished the rendering engine. It should now support all the features of DBPro and all Advanced Terrain shaders should now work. Not tested though but the code used in BlitzTerrain is similar to the code used in DBPro.

I will implement the new File system then release 2.01.

Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 17th Sep 2010 10:22
Oh ok cool, i thought i had made a noobie error

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Duffer
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Posted: 18th Sep 2010 12:10 Edited at: 18th Sep 2010 12:18
@ Kaedroho,

Cant remember - is it the cass that say 7 LOD levels is always better than say 3? Or does it depend on size of terrain/sectors etc?

[edit]

Reading up the thread a little, yes please make it simple for simpletons like me (RTTMS, finding a spot on the terrain with 2d coords under camera x, finding same 2d pos on texture using 2d coords under camera x) and I can't do Trig.

Also, all the comments about making the BlitzTerrains fit with the DBPro rendering engine and therefore can use DBPro shader/other commands on the Blitz terrains.... can you give a few examples...

Also, finally (!), I've just noticed that with the water shader demo it's the water shader itself that soaks up the otherwise blistering fast fps - anyway to make a half decent 'animated' and maybe reflective water plain without soaking up the fps??

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 20th Sep 2010 23:21 Edited at: 20th Sep 2010 23:23
Sorry for the late reply, I have been busy recently.

Its really difficult to make a terrain which is big enough to need 7 LOD levels. The most you would ever need to get to will be about 5 and that would be on terrains which are only possible with the full version. I added 255 LOD levels in because it wasn't hard to add support for it. I could've made infinite but I like using unsigned chars (single byte integers) when I can.


Quote: "Reading up the thread a little, yes please make it simple for simpletons like me (RTTMS, finding a spot on the terrain with 2d coords under camera x, finding same 2d pos on texture using 2d coords under camera x) and I can't do Trig."


Spherical terrains will not use the coordinate system that normal terrains do. It will use latitude and longitude to locate a point on a terrain.

I will make a few functions which will allow you to convert a point in 3D space to latitude and longitude.

I also came up with an idea to easily add streamed terrains to planets which will allow you to have enormous planets with high detail and also allow you to have realistic transitions from space to ground. I'm not sure if something like that has been achieved in industry yet, but I have found a way!


Nearly done on the file system. After, I will do more on the documentation then release!

Duffer
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Posted: 21st Sep 2010 01:27
@ Kaedroho,

Bingo! That was the direction I was thinking in with Spherical Terrains with perhaps some code (our our part!) taking the Planetary (Spherical) Terrain to a certain detail level then to the basic detail level of terrains by interpolating the higher 'level' terrains...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
KISTech
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Posted: 21st Sep 2010 21:22 Edited at: 21st Sep 2010 21:32
Quote: "enormous planets with high detail and also allow you to have realistic transitions from space to ground. I'm not sure if something like that has been achieved in industry yet"


I can't find it at the moment but there was a link to a game engine somewhere that had beautiful highly detailed terrains on a planet. I really can't wait to play around with spherical and streaming terrains. This is really going to be fun.

[edit]
Found it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCzDKj3hjOE

Duffer
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Posted: 21st Sep 2010 21:58
OK, admittedly that YouTube was ruddy impressive...

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kaedroho
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Posted: 21st Sep 2010 23:37
New filetype is nearly in now. Theres slightly less filesize, I think I will make a few more changes to the file system to remove some more.

KISTech
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2010 18:20 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2010 18:23
@Duffer, that was is 4 years old. The new one on their site is even longer and more impressive. (although they keep switching in and out of cockpit view which is very annoying..)

I could see BlitzTerrain being fully capable of this type of detail and quality in the right hands..

@kaedroho, don't take the "less is more" approach to far..

French gui
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2010 18:09
I'm very excited by this spherical terrain, can't wait for a demo !!
kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 12:55
Just did some calculations on the new Terrain modification system.

Old system
4096 vertices changed every loop at 10 FPS

New system
65536 vertices changed every loop at 100 + FPS

Thats over 160 times faster.

Duffer
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 13:02
ah, that's only so-so....



only kidding, that's an amazing upgrade in speed.

is this with the basic RTTMS commands raising and lowering points on the terrain?

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kaedroho
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 13:04
Yep, making DBPro call the command 63356 times every loop. It would be faster with brushes as C++ can call commands alot quicker than DBPro can.

Duffer
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Posted: 25th Sep 2010 13:10
Bring on the brush commands then!

Good grief, at this speed, with pixel shaders, you could use (abuse) BlitzTerrain to make Oceans and Water effects faster than otherwise...

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kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 20:48
Set point height is now finnished! About 1 hour ago, it sort of worked, but now it works perfectly! (just a little buggy with LOD but I know whats wrong).

Most of the bugs were caused by bugs in the system as it was before and some missing features they are all squashed now.

I'll get brush commands done and I'll release a demo

BMacZero
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 22:34
It's from Finland? lol, joking aside, yay!


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KISTech
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Posted: 27th Sep 2010 22:57
Sweet. Can't wait to see it.

kaedroho
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 00:28 Edited at: 28th Sep 2010 00:59
Heres a demo of the RTTMS in action. I basically made it use the sin function with the timer on every single vertex on a 256x256 terrain, making a wave effect.

I get 20 FPS with this demo. This is mainly because DBPro computes this over 65000 times every loop:

Quote: "BT SetPointHeight terrainid,x,y,sin(x*10+time)*100.0"


DBPro is not very efficient with its external function calls. I have done tests before and FPS rates are 10 times this amount when done directly in C++. You will be able to see these speeds when I add brush commands.

[Screenshot Attached]


Download:

ZIP
RAR

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kaedroho
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 00:59
As I added the above demo, I noticed that the new water demo got no downloads. Thats because I accidentally pointed it to the old one! New links below:

ZIP
RAR

Duffer
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 02:22
@ Kaedroho,

Both the above Zip/Rar links on both above entries get "Cannot find server"?

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KISTech
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Posted: 28th Sep 2010 05:18
A DNS lookup of download.blitzwerks.co.uk resolves to the proper address according to http://network-tools.com/nslook/

Does it resolve to an IP for you?

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