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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Public Test - Upgrade 7.4

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gamerboots
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Posted: 12th May 2009 09:40
@batvink
well I guess we will have to work with the one we got then.

on a side note, dbp could definately use some general improvement with its speed on grabbing images. I have noted that the get image routine is excessively slow. A possible solution to increasing its speed in this area may be to bear that the software itself must be able to access any additional processors a pc has otherwise whether you have a pc that has two processors or eight it will only have the use of one of them.

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
BatVink
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Posted: 12th May 2009 13:12
Quote: "dbp could definately use some general improvement with its speed on grabbing images"

It's much quicker to get images by converting to a memblock. Much harder work codewise, but worth the trade-off. I posted some comparisons a couple of years ago, and the savings were quite significant.

Diggsey
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Posted: 12th May 2009 13:28
@gamer boots
The slow-down in 'get image' is caused by the need to transfer data from the graphics card back into RAM, and that is one of the slowest things you can possible do, and isn't affected by the number of CPUs/Cores you have...
The chances are, if you are using 'get image' in a a piece of code which needs to be run at speed, then it could be designed better to avoid this.
(eg. You could render things to the image straight away instead of to a bitmap and then using get image, and if you need to make changes to the image, render it to another render target using a pixel shader to make the changes. Both of these things are VERY fast.)

gamerboots
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Posted: 12th May 2009 14:30
hi diggsey,
I do agree with you that it is naturally slow without any help from anything else but my point is that it is somewhat excessively slow with dbp even if you have a decent graphics card and this could possibly be an area of general improvement for future versions.

batvink, do you have a link with this posted somewhere , I would like to see it if you do.

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 12th May 2009 14:54
Quote: "I can't get the editor to work using Vista Home Premium."


Beta6 doesn't seem to include Editor.exe for some reason.

What version of the new editor should we be testing?

Because of the continuing editor problems I took the precaution of moving the old editor executables out of the way before installing the update. The only one I've tried reinstating (dated 24 Mar 2009 on my machine) worked fine - or at least just as well as before, e.g. the continuing long line concatenation symbol saga.

I admit I'm confused - I thought a major reason for these updates was to get the new editor sorted out, but little seems to be happening.
Flatlander
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Posted: 12th May 2009 17:09 Edited at: 12th May 2009 17:10
I'm sorry GG. The lag with the other fixes is probably due to the fact that there is also the matter of cleaning up the newest version FPSC source code (extras) and a lot of the newer betas had to do with that.

(I'm not sure what happened to beta 4 but . . . ) However, I would guess that Lee all along has been working on the fixes for u74 including the new editor but just hasn't had anything to release yet.

Actually, I hadn't realized myself that there is going to be a new editor. That is going to be a welcome relief. I hadn't seen where to download the beta version of the editor and it seems that my first downloaded beta version of u74 didn't have it included and so am still using the old editor. The way it looks that is fortunate for me.

The past has a lot of memories to hold onto; but, today is chock full of new adventures, and, the future shouts out, "The best is yet to come!" -- TerryC
Diggsey
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Posted: 12th May 2009 19:05
Quote: "even if you have a decent graphics card"


Your graphics card doesn't affect the speed of transfer from the card to RAM. It is only really affected by the connection. In fact, the more modern your card, the slower this will probably be, since older cards often use some of the normal RAM as video memory.

gamerboots
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Posted: 13th May 2009 05:15 Edited at: 13th May 2009 05:16
Quote: "In fact, the more modern your card, the slower this will probably be,"


Thats an interesting comment. but so you know where I'm at ,
I have a nvidia graphics card that I bought and installed on my main pc which connects though the pci slot(like a modem) so its not like a chipset which uses the RAM as it has its own. Its not ultra fast but it is decent and will run most commercial games on the market with only a handful of exceptions (so far). anyway, I think if there is a faster way that dbp can load and grab images then by all means it should be implemented in some future version as I dont believe that this is a graphcis card ,processor,or connection issue but how it loads and grabs them internally. (I have been known to be wrong )

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 14th May 2009 12:54
Neither The new set blend mapping on command snippet nor the help file shows the usage of this:

* SET BLEND MAPPING ON Object Number, Limb Number, Stage Index, Image Number, TexCoordMode, Blend Mode, Arg1, Arg2, Arg0, ArgResult

whats arg1, arg2, arg0, argresult?

There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 14th May 2009 13:00
Quote: "rem You will have noticed we used more parameters above to accomodate the Texture coordinate mode and a stage value
rem which is used to specify which stage in the pipeline wanted to apply the blending effect, and we can have up to
rem eight stages (0-7) if we wanted, so lets add another stage that uses a multiplier to brighten the object up
iStage=2 : iTexCoordMode=0 : D3DTOP_MODULATE4X=6
set blend mapping on 1,iStage,2,iTexCoordMode,D3DTOP_MODULATE4X"

Quote from the blend mapping on snippet.

When you say we add another stage(X-10), do you mean we actually make a new uv set seperate from the base one?

Does that mean we can use Scroll Object texture or scale object texture commands on the newly added stages and it will work?

Or do we need to export the original 3d object with 2 or more uv sets as before?

There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th May 2009 13:40
Quote: "When you say we add another stage(X-10), do you mean we actually make a new uv set seperate from the base one? "


I believe it means use the existing UV data. So, for example, if you wanted to use the stage 2 UV data in blending stage 4 you would need to set iTexCoordMode = 12, i.e. 12-10 = 2. This is necessary because the other mode values (i.e. 0, 1, 2 and 3 according to the help file) have been used for something else.

Quote: "Does that mean we can use Scroll Object texture or scale object texture commands on the newly added stages and it will work?"


I doubt it. It's a blending stage that's been added, not UV texture stage coordinates. Each blending stage can use different texture stage coordinates according to the value set in iTexCoordMode.

I agree the Help file is far from clear:

Quote: "Texture Coord Mode:
0 - Regular UV Stage Match
1 - Sphere Mapping UV Data
2 - Cube Mapping UV Data
3 - Steal UV Data From Stage Zero
10-17 - Take UV Data From Stage Mode Value minus 10
"


What, for example, does Regular UV Stage Match mean? I assume it means that blending stage 0 uses texture stage 0 UV data, blending stage 1 uses texture stage 1 UV data, and so on. But it might just mean use stage 0 (which would be the same as mode 3). A few simple tests using a simple plain and adding some UV stages of your own will tell you.

Quote: "Or do we need to export the original 3d object with 2 or more uv sets as before?"


Probably.
CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 14th May 2009 13:52
Yes actually scrolling or scaling textures of other stages do not work like if the object has 2 or more uv sets.

It actually works with objects 2 or more uv sets.

Its not important anyways, its as how it used to be.

But now the more important thing is, there are changes in the command with more argument passing, what do these arg1, arg2, arg0, argresult do indeed?

There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Mobiius
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Posted: 19th May 2009 14:09 Edited at: 19th May 2009 14:09
Quote: ", I think if there is a faster way that dbp can load and grab images then by all means it should be implemented in some future version as I dont believe that this is a graphcis card ,processor,or connection issue but how it loads and grabs them internally. (I have been known to be wrong )"


It IS a connection issue! As has been stated, the slowdown is due to transferring data from gfx memory into conventional memory. No amount of compiler optimisation will change this! The ONLY way to optimise this is to convince motherboard manufacturers to increase the transfer speed / bandwidth used for this purpose which they aren't likely to do as it's not cost effective for the very little performance gains, plus there are workarounds which gets around this. (As mentioned earlier)

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KISTech
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Posted: 19th May 2009 18:15
Before PCI-E there was AGP
Before AGP there was PCI
Before PCI there was (uggh..) ISA

Motherboards and graphics cards have gotten MUCH faster over the years, increasing the communication link speed between motherboard and graphics card each time. The communications channel between them isn't one-way, is it??

If not, then the communications should be the same speed in both directions.

kaedroho
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Posted: 19th May 2009 18:23
Quote: "Motherboards and graphics cards have gotten MUCH faster over the years, increasing the communication link speed between motherboard and graphics card each time. The communications channel between them isn't one-way, is it??

If not, then the communications should be the same speed in both directions."


It uses the same data bus for both ways. Just the device that writes to the bus changes. Theres no separate wires for send/recieve.

IanM
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Posted: 19th May 2009 23:42
"I know," said Lee to himself. "I think that when I write the code to grab images, I'll deliberately make it as slow as possible, just because I can. Tee Hee!"

The (lack of) speed of grabbing images with DBPro is mostly due to the design of the PC, and not to bad code.

First, the graphics bus (whichever one your machine has) is not as fast as raw memory - it may even be far slower to read from than to write to (such as may be the case with AGP).
Second, you may already be pumping MB's of data at it already (ie, the graphics bus is busy).
Third, your card may be too busy rendering stuff, or updating the display or doing many other things to immediately respond to the read request, and that means that your process will wait.

READING FROM GRAPHICS MEMORY IS NEVER GOING TO BE 'FAST'.

Now can we move on to another subject?

gamerboots
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Posted: 20th May 2009 05:04
I tend to agree IanM, Internal graphics cards appear mush faster than the ones you stick in (even if they have more onboard memory) but, the other side of the coin is that my graphics card is a pci (256mb), and although although graphics are slower,theres a lot more video memory and both processing and time critical applications are notably faster.

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
Tv Xxx
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Posted: 23rd May 2009 17:57
there are some undocumented shader commands, would be helpful if you could put them in the help files / update the keywords

i've posted a topic already

LINK

Cheers

Tv.

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wschramm
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Posted: 28th May 2009 03:19
Trying to upgrade from the u73 beta and the u73 release says be sure to remove all previous beta files, but I have know Idea what files to remove.

Until I remove them I'm getting the following error message box appears stating "Cannot open file : c:\/Program Files\Dark Basic Software\Dark Basic Professionl\Editor\Language\default.ini.", and after clicking OK I get another modal error message box stating "Access violation at address 00578A1D in module 'Editor.exe'. Read of address 00000000.

Jeff Miller
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Posted: 28th May 2009 12:18
Those are the error messages I get. See my May 10 post above. Are you using Vista Home Premium also?
gamerboots
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Posted: 30th May 2009 01:08
I recall reading a thread somewhere that dbp doesn't support 64 bit vista. (plz correct me if I'm wrong) so is your OS 32 or 64 bit?

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
Flatlander
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Posted: 30th May 2009 02:37
Here is a thread regarding VISTA.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=104612&b=1&p=0

The past has a lot of memories to hold onto; but, today is chock full of new adventures, and, the future shouts out, "The best is yet to come!" -- TerryC
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 30th May 2009 02:49
Quote: "I recall reading a thread somewhere that dbp doesn't support 64 bit vista. (plz correct me if I'm wrong) so is your OS 32 or 64 bit?"


I'm using 64 bit Vista Home Premium and haven't any problems with DBPro upgrades - I'm using the latest U7.4B6 at the moment.

However, my initial install on this machine was from the Dark Game Studio version of DBPro.

I did try to follow the Vista instructions carefully - but have no idea whether or not you are supposed to turn UAC back on after the install.
Jeff Miller
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Posted: 30th May 2009 23:03 Edited at: 30th May 2009 23:04
The TEXTURE BACKDROP command is now reactivated and running correctly. However, although it is in the Command Index in the help files, it is not in the Camera Commands section where it probably used to be.

Also, the help file accessed from the Command Index still incorrectly describes the command as obsolete, which it was but no longer is.

In the Camera Commands section the SCROLL BACKDROP command, which should now likewise be usable again since the textured backdrop is available, is still described as obsolete, and still is (you get an "obsolete" error when trying to run it). It think it would be a plus to have it re-activated.
gamerboots
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Posted: 31st May 2009 22:43
Quote: "The TEXTURE BACKDROP command is now reactivated and running correctly"

I did a simple test not too long ago and wrote some code to take a quick snapshot using getimage. what I discovered was that on both xp and vista 32bit that a call to get image caused the graphics to look pretty ugly[see my earlier post on page 1] Can you confirm whether or not this problem exists on 64bit vista.

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
Xeridox
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 23:28
Just installed, and I still have problems with labels not showing up....some of them show and some do not. Seems to limit how many labels it shows, not sure. Also, the repeat command shows as a label. It doesn't stop after so many labels, because some labels at the end of my program are showing, so it's just skipping them instead. I have 65 labels in Phenom, 28 are showing, of which 9 of the showing are "repeat" commands.

As far as variables and functions, they all seem to show...and I mean not just arrays, but even variables inside functions:
function Test(x,y,z)

x,y, and z will show up too, don't know it it's supposed to do that or not, but just letting you know...

Arrays declared inside rem blocks also show up, and I can see only one small problem with that: A programmer might me having an error that an array does not exist, yet when he/she looks at the variable list, there it is, even though it's in a rem block. Maybe a different color for a commented variable? Just a thought...

Also, the first time I click on a variable in the list, it jumps up the page and selects a different one, kind of annoying, especially if I've been searching for a variable/label for 5 minutes lol....

No progress bar in the new editor when compiling, and "compile and run" does not run, just compiles.

Well, that's my bug list, I'll add more later if I find them.

Phenom - MP FPS WIP - With bot support, even online!
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe / 2GB DDR2 system RAM / nVidia 9800 GX2
BillR
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 08:36
Editor Issues...

1) Pressing F5 (Compile & Run)
Seems like it just sits there, whatever it is doing
with no feedback or messages of any kind for 6 seconds,
then it compiles and runs OK.

It would be nice to see some kind of message that you did hit F5,
and that it was doing something.

2) Using Replace in the Edit menu, choosing Replace All
only replaces the first instance.
Try this source, replacing 'sign' with 'sign5'
wschramm
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 03:58
I'm using Vista 32bit Home Premium, solved problem by just doing a clean install yet again of Darkbasicpro and then upadating up again. I was hopping to not have to reinstall competely again.

mr Handy
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2009 20:20
Dear Lee!

Could you please add two simple feautures in 7.4 final update?
It is simple feautures that cant be done in DB at all!

- compile exe with 32 ARGB icon*
- extra cubemap feautures: save dynamic cubemap to cubemap dds file
or copy dynamic cubemap to regular image**

Thank you!

*currently icon ~127 colors RGB with unknown pallete

**currently there is no way to make many static cubemaps on the fly, or saving dynamic cubemaps to dds or even saving 6-sides hand-made strip image as a dds cubemap!..
Only two way - 8 dynamic cubemaps (even if you dont need dynamic) or external editor (PShop)

Lee Bamber is so~o swett'n'cool desu nya ^^
Game_Nut
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 03:15 Edited at: 4th Jun 2009 03:22
I put this update on my pc and fluid dose not render all i get is a white screen and this is with my stuff and the fluid examples.

This is what it was like before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeT9A_1P8Wg&feature=channel_page

And all i get now is a white screen
Xeridox
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 04:13
Update on previous label problems:

OK, the new editor only shows labels that have no underscore characters. You must also click (or double-click) on the 'labels' icon to get them to show in the first place, they do not automatically show when a project loads, nor does a + appear beside the icon.

'Repeat' only shows in the label list when followed by a colon, like so:
repeat:until forever=1

Phenom - MP FPS WIP - With bot support, even online!
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe / 2GB DDR2 system RAM / nVidia 9800 GX2
HowDo
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Posted: 4th Jun 2009 20:15
cannot see why but in 7.4 beta 6 with physX slime and container demos run but take hours to show any thing, used to work ok before even if it was slow @ 3fps 7300SE graphics card, other physX code seem to work ok.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 18:41 Edited at: 7th Jun 2009 18:44
Lee

The latest upgrade destroys many shader demos - texture clamping will not work with U7.4beta6 when specified in the shader.

The attached demo works fine with previous upgrades, but fails with U7.4beta6.

This is what the demo should look like:



and this is what U7.4b6 gives, i.e. the texture is wrapped rather than clamped as specified in the shader:



One consequence of this is that skyboxes will no longer show correctly when a shader is applied. There are many other applications where texture clamping is necessary.

Please fix this bug.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 18:42
Correct screenshot for previous post.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 18:43
Wrong screenshot for bug report two posts back.

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IanM
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 19:57
If you use the SET OBJECT TEXTURE command on the object in your code, you can see it's having an effect - it looks like the object's settings are overriding the shader settings, which seems to me to be wrong.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 21:29
Yes.

The whole point of a shader is to take control of the rendering pipeline.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 12th Jun 2009 21:40 Edited at: 13th Jun 2009 23:50
The following code produces a runtime error with U7.4. It seems to be impossible to record sound now:



The problem was reported by ScottyB on this thread:

record sound problem

I'm using Vista 64 bit in case that's relevant.

Edit

This doesn't appear to be a bug after all - see IanM's comments and subsequent discussion on the same thread. I think this is another example where a bit more detail in the Help file would, well, HELP.
mr Handy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 12:57
THIS MUST BE CHECKED, but
registry commands wont work
plus animation volume wont work too

Lee Bamber is so~o swett'n'cool desu nya ^^
kaedroho
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 23:06
Damn, I need to use Green Gandalfs shaders. So I guess that ill have to downgrade...

New specs: Nvidia Geforce 9600GS 768MB, AMD Anthlon x64 X2 4000+ (2.6GHz Dual core), 3GB DDR2 800MHz RAM and a big hard drive.
Math89
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 23:36
I have just tried the new editor, and I must admit that it's quite good. The autocompletion system is a good idea, I just regret that it doesn't take global variables, arrays, functions or UDTs in account. The only thing annoying me is the function folding system which doesn't display the function name.
Nevertheless, I think that it's going to be very good soon.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 13th Jun 2009 23:53
Regarding sound, see my edit four posts back.

Quote: "Damn, I need to use Green Gandalfs shaders. So I guess that ill have to downgrade..."


I believe there is a simple workaround, but more importantly, Lee has said he will fix the problem.
Duffer
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Posted: 14th Jun 2009 15:48
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=141670&b=18

fixing u7.4b6+ so that the wonderful DKShop and DKAVM work - in particular the dk pick limb command?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
gamerboots
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Posted: 15th Jun 2009 17:03
Quote: " it looks like the object's settings are overriding the shader settings,"


a big ouch on that one. too many things appear broken in 7.4 -going back to 7.3

Regards
Emperor Gamerboots~
Herakles
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 02:55
How many people think that autocam should be off by default? It's not really important but it is annoying if you forget to turn it off, and I can't imagine it'd take more than 30 seconds to change.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
BMacZero
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 03:21
I agree with that.



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kaedroho
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 03:23
so do i

New specs: Nvidia Geforce 9600GS 768MB, AMD Anthlon x64 X2 4000+ (2.6GHz Dual core), 3GB DDR2 800MHz RAM and a big hard drive.
Herakles
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 03:44
> kaedroho

I seem to recall that somebody thought there was a bug in BlitzTerrain when he forgot "autocam off". Or was I reading that about something else?

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
BMacZero
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 04:13
That was me



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CuCuMBeR
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Posted: 17th Jun 2009 10:24
Multi texturing commands are not clear enough.
Help files should explain more with examples.
And the examples for blend mapping in the snippets folder is not enough to explain.

There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.

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