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Work in Progress / Mercenaries 2

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 09:10
Well, I played it and was a bit disspaointed. The AI was hurrendous, of course coding AI is so hard. But hitting them was too... I'd hit one with a rocket launchera few times and he'd still rock back and forth and...
I gota nice framerate of 45, and was impressed by the terrains, but the fact that the hands changed depening on the weapon you used bugged me... And some of the dark matter models, but that wasn't really as mcuh of a problem as the AI. I think if they are worked on then this game could be the best DB game I've played!

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The dude guy
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 10:44
@David T. Is there something wrong with your website? This is the error I get: Cannot execute (then the name of the file)
and the other one I can't remember!

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David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 16:57 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 16:57
Well, I played it and was a bit disspaointed. The AI was hurrendous, of course coding AI is so hard.

THey only run towards you and shoot What else can they realistically do in a deathmatch?

Quote: "But hitting them was too... I'd hit one with a rocket launchera few times and he'd still rock back and forth and..."


That didn't use to happen until I put the physics in - the velocity of the bullet is pushing him back while he's wanting to move forwards. I was half way coding a fix when I thought I better release a demo.

Quote: "I gota nice framerate of 45, and was impressed by the terrains, but the fact that the hands changed depening on the weapon you used bugged me..."


You get bugged easily

Quote: "And some of the dark matter models, but that wasn't really as mcuh of a problem as the AI."


What about the DM models? Most of them are in the game - there are a few dodgy guns towards the end of the spectrum before rocket launcher maybe that's what you're talking about. Don't use them really, I'm waiting for new models to put in their place

Quote: "I think if they are worked on then this game could be the best DB game I've played!"


That's a bit extreme, considering the ai in horrendous and can't be improved too much

Quote: "@David T. Is there something wrong with your website? This is the error I get: Cannot execute (then the name of the file)
and the other one I can't remember!"


When doing what? I don't know what it's talking about executing - if there was anything wrong you should get a 404 or some such.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 17:23
I got a 404 on the page.. tried to download it last nite but gave up after a few 404s.


Cian Rice
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 20:08
They didn't run towards me and shoot... They just walked around. Well anyways I think I should say what was good now, it definatly is addicting when you get past the AI and stuff. And I love the landscapes.

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teh game wiz
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 20:53 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 20:55
YAHOO! played the new demo and itssss great!

everything about it was good, apart from the ai... which i agree needs improving.

but apart from that... it keep me entertained for a long time and my computer got a steady 53 fps(using standard clock speeds) on the river map

David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 20:59
Quote: "but apart from that... it keep me entertained for a long time and my computer got a steady 53 fps(using standard clock speeds) on the river map "


Try quarry - it's very atmospheric

Quote: "They didn't run towards me and shoot... They just walked around. Well anyways I think I should say what was good now, it definatly is addicting when you get past the AI and stuff. And I love the landscapes."


They do shoot at you. I can vouch for that

If anybody has any suggestions how the AI could be improved, please do post them. It's hard when everybody's telling you to improve it, but you don't know how - they run at te nearest enemy and shoot them - what else can you put in a deathmatch?

Quote: "I got a 404 on the page.. tried to download it last nite but gave up after a few 404s."


Works fine here If you do get a 404 try again after a minute. THat's all I an suggest.

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teh game wiz
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 21:09
nice..
i like the screen efect that you get when your almost dead,
also, i was thinking you could try added some weather like rain if you want a lot of atmosphere. but that might be a bit hard....

anyway, i tried my best not to waste too much of my life this time

have you put in a jump button yet?... cuz theres times when i realy want to jump ¬,¬

David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 21:19
Quote: "nice..
i like the screen efect that you get when your almost dead,"


Thanks Same effect as the menu.

Quote: "also, i was thinking you could try added some weather like rain if you want a lot of atmosphere. but that might be a bit hard...."


Good idea. Will do it after I've fixed the jittery people problem.

Quote: "anyway, i tried my best not to waste too much of my life this time "


Don't worry I die all the time - although there are health packs across the level if you go low.

Quote: "have you put in a jump button yet?... cuz theres times when i realy want to jump ¬,¬"


No - I may put it in.

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Ali M Oldboy
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 21:44
DavidT - What did you use to develop the 3D hands?

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David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 21:57 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 21:57
Somebody else modelled all the gun models.

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The dude guy
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 00:07
Does the fact that I use WinRar help at all?

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David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 00:11
It's compresed with WinZIP on maximum setting. Maybe Winrar doesn't support that?

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 01:37
lol... David T, you shouldn't have put yourself in teh game, even on the player's side... observe merclog748453.txt:


Nothing like a little friendly fire from a p-90 to stir things up, eh?

I'll give a little more 'professional' review thingee later, but until then... GREAT GAME!!!

...except for you forgot to hide the player model for teh death cutscene again

"
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David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 01:48
Thanks

ps - my virtual persona will enact its revenge



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The admiral
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 05:27
I think with the ai everybody might be happy if you for example made the ai do some crouching and sneaking around, dodge bullets or run away when outnumbered that kinda thing...make them look like their tactical.

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David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 06:01
Quote: "I think with the ai everybody might be happy if you for example made the ai do some crouching and sneaking around, dodge bullets or run away when outnumbered that kinda thing...make them look like their tactical."


A few problems:

- Don't think I have the animations for that

- The current system doesn't really allow it and while those features look good they're incredibly hard to code and define - when they run away, where do they run away to?

- I'm not sure how the tactical element comes into deathmatching - my own person vision is basically 'he with the biggest gun wins'. Adding tactical elements just means that you end up with a bunch of people sneaking around trying to avoid each other.

I really do like the suggestions - those are just a few points regardin them. Let me know what you think

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 06:37
Well this game is so much fun! It's addicting, I can look pastthe problems I had it is so much fun.

Do you plan to add in a single player campaing along with other types of matches like solo deathmatch, and capture the flag? And what about online multiplayer via Nuclear Network or something?

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Ian T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 07:42
There's no way my PC can handle the demo, but in the way of AI suggestions--

-Dodge incoming projectiles
-Hide behind objects (path grid would be required)
-Search for the player when they don't see him
-Don't get in the way of teammates' fire

With all of those well implemented, AI can go from incredibly stupid to incredibly smart. It's good searching, dodging and teamwork that made the AI in Unreal Tournament so revolutionary .

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 08:35
Quote: "Works fine here If you do get a 404 try again after a minute. THat's all I an suggest."


I keep trying, but it instantly goes to the 404 page. It isn't like a normal 404 though, it's more like a minimalistic version.



http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/db/downloads/Mercenaries2Beta2.zip

that's the link it's trying to find


Deadly Shadow
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 11:26
I want that game good job!

Sega and Microsoft nothing but the best.
The admiral
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 14:17
Tactics is actually a large part of fps games particularily because most weapons are balanced out. Tactics is making the right weapon holding choices when in certain situations and hiding behind things for cover etc. Its not about running away form people etc and the things are easy to cod then you think.....point them in a direction and move not to hard mate.

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Eric T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 14:54
Well, cool music... good looking graphics... pretty cool sounds... all that fun stuff.

Problem is, gameplay was a bit lacking for me. You see on everymap... all the enemies would do is twitch... or if i caught it on the right beat... dance. They'd stay in space and jsut twitch up and down, never moving, never shooting. Then when i killed them... they'd sit in the ground... twitching.

AMD 3200+ 64 - 9600xt 128mg - 512meg are my specs.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 15:04
so ... let me get this straight, is it *only* my connection that appears to be blocking the download of this file?

cause it doesn't appear to be on the damn server according to my machine.


David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:12
Quote: "that's the link it's trying to find"


YOu're trying to find the wrong demo Look on the previous page, there's a new link.

merc2newbeta.zip

Quote: "Tactics is actually a large part of fps games particularily because most weapons are balanced out. Tactics is making the right weapon holding choices when in certain situations and hiding behind things for cover etc. "


At the moment all the enemies have teh same weapon.

Quote: "Its not about running away form people etc and the things are easy to cod then you think.....point them in a direction and move not to hard mate."


That's what I'm doing

Quote: "Problem is, gameplay was a bit lacking for me. You see on everymap... all the enemies would do is twitch... or if i caught it on the right beat... dance. They'd stay in space and jsut twitch up and down, never moving, never shooting. Then when i killed them... they'd sit in the ground... twitching."


Argh! This is so annoying. Another person said thay did this. I can't undersand what's going wrong. On my PC you can kill them then they respawn.

At first the entities have ALOT of health, so it needs alot of ammo unloaded into them to kill them. If all else fails fire teh dodgy grenade launcher (9) at them. That should make sure they're dead.

The twitching is caused by physics working against their movement and happens when a rapid fire weapon is shot at them. I am fixing it.

The twitching should only happens once they've been shot at. Does it? Could you try playing throug a level for a while with either the flame thrower (key '-') or grenade (9) and see if any twiching happens?

Maybe on a few PCs the twiching is amplified (don't know why )

Quote: "Do you plan to add in a single player campaing along with other types of matches like solo deathmatch, and capture the flag? And what about online multiplayer via Nuclear Network or something?"


Solo deathmatch, ie every man for himself? Possibly

Capture the flag - I love that idea. Will try hard to get it in.

Online multiplayer code is there but it doesn't work that well and I have no proper means of testing it.

Quote: "-Dodge incoming projectiles
-Hide behind objects (path grid would be required)
-Search for the player when they don't see him
-Don't get in the way of teammates' fire"


The projectiles are too fast to dodge

There are also no objects to hide behind, and the offensive nature of the ai at the moments means they're more likely to want to kill you then hide

Search for player- that's done already. They try and find the nearest enemy player and shoot him.

Sorry for blowing all these AI points apart, but at the end of the day the only person who knows the code is me and although all these suggestions are wonderful they're most likely not feasable (sp?)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:16
Quote: "YOu're trying to find the wrong demo Look on the previous page, there's a new link.

merc2newbeta.zip"


i've hard reloaded everything on your site... I still just get the link on the Mercenaries2 page to that download.
I also on the previous screen have a link just to that page or your other stuff, is there some secrect combination of the site for this?! cause I just can't find the link your talking about.


Eric T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:20
http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/db/downloads/merc2newbeta.zip

@David... I'll play through a bit in a few minutes, see what happens when... maybe take a fraps video

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Ali M Oldboy
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:33
I have a few questions to ask,

What did you use for terrain/editor?
What 3D modeller did you use?

Thanks,


Nukesoft :: Explosive Games ::
Eric T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:50
Ok... the twitching seems to happen whenever they start taking the slightest tiny bit of damage. The stall, they twitch.. and they are open targets for me to come along with a shotgun and pop them a good one

As for the videos so you can get a better idea of what it is... Fraps loves making huge file sizes... so i have 5, 30 second, 150meg each video files sitting on the HD... that need to be converted to something smaller... by maybe a megabyte or 140. So if you have any suggestions there... then blast away.

I am gonna sleep now... but i'll look at it some more as soon as i wake up... refreshed.

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. He looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with.
David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 17:08
Quote: "As for the videos so you can get a better idea of what it is... Fraps loves making huge file sizes... so i have 5, 30 second, 150meg each video files sitting on the HD... that need to be converted to something smaller... by maybe a megabyte or 140. So if you have any suggestions there... then blast away."


Windows Movie maker does a good job of reducing them to 1mb

Quote: "i've hard reloaded everything on your site... I still just get the link on the Mercenaries2 page to that download.
I also on the previous screen have a link just to that page or your other stuff, is there some secrect combination of the site for this?! cause I just can't find the link your talking about."


The link is not on my site. The previous page of this topic, I posted a link, the same one that Eric posted above

Quote: "Ok... the twitching seems to happen whenever they start taking the slightest tiny bit of damage. The stall, they twitch.. and they are open targets for me to come along with a shotgun and pop them a good one "


With which guns does this happen? Does the shotgun finish them off?

I know that with a machine gun or similar they do twitch while they're being shot but it eventually subsides.

If all else fails grenade launcher will obliterate them for sure

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Mitchell
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 20:03
when I download the file, it stops at 400 kb, saying it's only a 400 kb file

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6r1m r34p0r
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 21:26
@Mitchell: its 50.7 megs

@davidT: the AI needs to be improved. I once defeated the entire team with one clip from the p90 and got 400 kills. The only reason I stopped was it was getting boring.
The dude guy
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 22:01
For me it stops at 21.1 mb...

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 22:42
o The bots didn't seem to run around at all for me.
o I saw that bots were being killed(not by me) a few times, but never saw that actually happen.
o Particles seemed to be frozen in the air. It was like one of those special effects where they freeze time but the camera still moves, except the bots around me were still animating but without moving.
o Rocket launcher(and grenade launcher) made noise but sawe nothing come out. I fired it right infront of me and nothing happened(other than the sound fx) I fired it at a bot(many times) and they didn't die.
o After a while bots seemed to become invincible/frozen. They did nothing other than appear half in the ground and move abit. I couldn't kill them either.

This really could be a great game. And if its the physics thats causing all the problems... take them out.
I ran it at 30FPS or less.
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David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 23:04
Quote: "o The bots didn't seem to run around at all for me."


They do! I swear they do! I've just spent hte past 30 mins playing the game, they do!

Quote: "o Particles seemed to be frozen in the air. It was like one of those special effects where they freeze time but the camera still moves, except the bots around me were still animating but without moving."


There is something weird going on there. Never is it coded for the bots to stop moving. It's not possible

Quote: "o Rocket launcher(and grenade launcher) made noise but sawe nothing come out. I fired it right infront of me and nothing happened(other than the sound fx) I fired it at a bot(many times) and they didn't die."


There is definately something weird with your particles.

Aah hang on.

You didn't press shift did you at all? That freezes the particles. Press control to unfreeze. That explains lack of particles, fire and frozen particles. It also freezes any bullets. So that may be why.

Quote: "o After a while bots seemed to become invincible/frozen. They did nothing other than appear half in the ground and move abit. I couldn't kill them either."


Argh! What is happening here I never get this - the bots never freeze and become invincible on my machine.

A recap for anybody experiencing problems:

- When bots are shot by machine guns, they may judder. This is fine and will be fixed - their behaviour is as normal - it's just the visible model that's juddering.

- If particles freeze within the game, it's because you've pressed SHIFT. Press CONTROL to switch freeze time off.

- If bullets suddenly stop having an effect, press CONTROL. You're frozen time by pressing SHIFT.

I'm glad I've realised why the bullet thing was happening! It's a freeze time feature so I can take screenshots!

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 23:17
How do I frag?

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David T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 23:20
Kill other players? Just shoot them

In the next patch for the beta I've put a notice at the bottom of the screen telling you if you've frozen time. Hopefully should be more clear

I'm also playing around with AI difficulty. It seems either the human team obliterate the Ai, or the AI obliterate the humans. I can't seem to find a middle ground. Hmm.

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dark coder
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 23:21
point your gun at someone then click ur mouse untill they lie flat on the ground, thats a frag :p, basically polliticaly correct way of saying you killed someone in a computer game


Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:09
Oh, okay I thought it meant that I had X Frag grendaes.

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David T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:15
No It's how many people you've killed.

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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:33
Man that's been terminology since Quake! Where ya been

If I get sufficient hardware for Xmas I'll try it out David.

You might wanna include a flag in the config file for debug commands. If it's not on, don't even display frame rate or anything. That way people who want to get the most out of the game don't have to put up with any of the dev tools or data and those who are interested in it can use it.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:35
Never was really into FPSs until about a year ago, I was off in RPG land.

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Eric T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 02:31 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 02:31
Ok, got the movies joined and shrunk:
http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/merc2.wmv 2minutes or so... 5.14megs

Quote: "With which guns does this happen? Does the shotgun finish them off?

I know that with a machine gun or similar they do twitch while they're being shot but it eventually subsides.

If all else fails grenade launcher will obliterate them for sure "


I'm not sure which guns, I tried most of them, but then again the "Twitch" or muscle spasm, or animation bug, would be caused by something else... be it a hill, another player shooting them... or something.

But it does happen on every map... and dosen't matter what weapon i was using, and wouldn't matter if i was within 2 feet or 50 miles... it jsut would happen.

Edit: And yes, from a distance of about 1foot to the face... the shotgun does finish them off

Eric

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. He looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with.
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 02:59 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 03:27
Lol, ahhhhh
That'll teach me to randomly press buttons again! I was seeing if there was a jump button...

Will test again... 1 min.

#edit, yup, much better if you don't press shift

I still find that bots stand still for long periods of time. And occaisonally try and swim through the ground But there is definite evidence of running around and being blown up by my rocket launcher.


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David T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:00
Eric - I looked at your video. Not much to wrong there - I didn't see a single player flickering :/ Although I see you had trouble shooting a person wit hteh sniper. That's probably because of the aforementioned free mode activated by pressing shift

I also saw a bot who was just shooting into thin air - when the ydo that just kill em - that usually kick starts them

Quote: "That'll teach me to randomly press buttons again! I was seeing if there was a jump button... "


Glad it was that

Quote: "I still find that bots stand still for long periods of time. And occaisonally try and swim through the ground But there is definite evidence of running around and being blown up by my rocket launcher. "


Rarely on mine they do get stuck - blowing them up solves it.

'Swimming through the ground' is caused by the point object command pointing them towards an enemy on the other side of a slope - because they're so close to their target they don't move forward, just shoot into the hill

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Eric T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:09
Well with the sniper, i was trying to zoom on in on them being stuck in they're one place (they acted normal at first... but then they just sit (err stand) in that area, and do nothing but twitch, no shooting... no nothing). And then when i played some more i noticed after i would kill them... they would respawn normally... but move a few steps and get "Stuck and twitch" syndrome.

I'll play again... see what happens..

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. He looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with.
Eric T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:37 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 04:38
http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/merc2-2.wmv

This time... I left sound on (i think), as you can watch at the start Felix dance on beat . Then a mass rave going on a few times through out

And a few other animation bugs are also in it

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. He looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with.
David T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:47
That's not the twitching I was talking about

That's just me dodgily looping the animations. They are in fact firing at somebody, I think I saw in the first few scenes there were people there he was firing at.

It's hard when there are no visible bullets and only 1 3dsound of people firing to know if they're firing or not.

The difficulty has been tweaked now so its much more fast paced. At the beginning it tkaes ages to wear down bots, I've changed it no so they have less health.

The twitching I'm talking about it much much worse. Thank god not that many people after all have found it

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Eric T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:53
Ahhh, I'll just call this the "Rave Syndrome" then.

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. He looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with.
David T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:54 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 04:54
I'm sure the DarkMATTER readme file said that the frame numbers I used were the firing loop. Ah well

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