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Geek Culture / [STICKY] The Posting Competition

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 26th Jul 2015 00:04 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 00:05
True, that's just the most common pattern I see when Googling this thing. Perhaps it's an old method that doesn't need to exist anymore.

So, basically, I could work around it like so?



Then I would just increment the "tileID" variable after each click? This was my idea last time, but I ran into the issue of being able to put multiple tiles in the same spot. I could solve that easily enough with collision detection/ray casting, but is there not a better way?

Thanks budo, this is helping me out tons!

EDIT: Ah ha, page!


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budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 00:41
Quote: "Then I would just increment the "tileID" variable after each click? This was my idea last time, but I ran into the issue of being able to put multiple tiles in the same spot. I could solve that easily enough with collision detection/ray casting, but is there not a better way?"

AGK has a way of getting the top-most object at position X,Y so I'd use that and either keep your array IDs in line with the sprite IDs or use a hash map (not sure if AppGameKit basic has these though).

"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 02:11
Do you basically mean



that?

320x224
Clonkex
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 03:28
Basically I'd recommend a simple 2D array. Unless your game world is freaking enormous the memory usage shouldn't be an issue, and a 2D array simplifies so many things (resizing, for example). You can either create a static array, if you know how big you need the world, or you can create a "jagged" array, where you store an array inside an array. I recommend the latter. It's a bit more complicated to set up and can be confusing but is the most flexible. I'd give you actual code but I can't remember the syntax for AppGameKit off the top of my head (also... not sure if you can do this in AppGameKit yet...). Basically, you create an array that contains arrays that contain data. Don't really have time to explain in more detail but someone else should be able to

Another way to make a 2D array is like this:



And then to access it you'd do this:



Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 26th Jul 2015 03:34 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 03:39
@Randomness:

No, I don't think so. I like budo's idea of not using a 2D array since it eats up a ton of memory that it doesn't need to.


I just remembered one of the major problems I had when trying to make a map editor in AppGameKit last time. I did essntially what I showed in my last post, however the array filled up INCREDIBLY fast since one click created like ten sprites in a row.

So how would I prevent that from happening again? This is what I did last time...



Looking at it, it should work. As soon as that array element is filled it should move on to the next one, but it never did! The array would just fill up instantly and my program would crash. It's really quite frustating.

@Clonkex:

I think that's what I'm looking for! Is the formula really that simple?! All this time...

But my questions still apply about how to make it find the next available slot and not create sixteengajillion tiles in a single space.


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budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 04:06
You're never breaking out of that loop, you will always create sprites for the entire array.

"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 26th Jul 2015 04:43 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 04:48
AH HA! I figured out what I had done before ages ago!

This is the working code!



There's still some issues. For example, no matter how fast I click, the item count always increases by 96. Not sure why! *

Secondly, it is still very easy to create tiles upon tiles in any given grid space. Is there a way I can prevent that without using collision detection or should I just go that route?

Thanks for the pushes guys! I will tidy up the code and get to work on this to make it nicer!

* EDIT: Derp I saw immediately what was causing that. I fixed it and now everything is correct.


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Clonkex
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 07:05 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 07:06
@Yodaman Jer:

It seems like you've completely forgotten how to use arrays. If I were you I'd go back to basics and refresh your memory to get some of that confusion out of there. I know how frustrating it can be when you manage to confuse yourself and then can't remember how to do the most obvious and simple things (like making a 2D array which remembers which tiles have been used already).

-------------------

Totally forgot to advertise our latest Flash Buddies video from Friday - Duck Game! Very fun and bizarre game, highly recommended! Especially recommended if you want a massive Mega Drive/80's nostalgia hit!



We'll have a new, much higher-quality intro for our video as soon as my new greenscreen arrives in the mail (and when I get around to making an intro theme tune for Flash Buddies )!

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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 08:02
The advantage of a 2D array is it's really fast. You figure out the array element you need based on the coordinates and boom, you can access that tile immediately. I'm using 2D arrays in Exotreve even though it only has 64 KB of RAM available to it. Doing things the way Budo suggests, you'd need to loop through every tile in the entire level to find the relevant ones. If you want to avoid the memory usage of a 2D array, you should use something more complicated, such as a quadtree.

320x224
swissolo
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 08:40 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 08:46
In my experience memory usage isn't what you should worry about in AGK. Math in AppGameKit Tier 1 is far too slow (relative to more common languages) for the trade off to be worthwhile.

You can create some very cool structures using UDTS in AGKv2 but they're still occasionally buggy if you go crazy. They can also become very slow. While you can approach problems with an object orientated mindset it doesn't usually turn out as well as a DBPro style approach with primitives (even if that approach isn't as pretty). Not particularly relevant here but I thought I'd mention it I'm still referring to tier 1 of course.

Clonkex
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 08:57
Quote: "Doing things the way Budo suggests, you'd need to loop through every tile in the entire level to find the relevant ones."


I meant to say how rubbish that idea sounded If possible, you should ALWAYS try to have your array indices represent the physical location of your tiles/blocks, even if the indices have to be scaled or offset to do so.

Dar13
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 10:36 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 10:37
Quote: "you should ALWAYS try to have your array indices represent the physical location of your tiles/blocks, even if the indices have to be scaled or offset to do so."

Uhh... that sounds like a terrible idea. Adding arbitrary elements to an array just because you want the array indices to match to physical locations is incredibly wasteful. Array indices are usually used to represent relative positions with the physical/actual locations being part of the array element object or translated to the physical location via a simple math routine.

EDIT: Just realized what you meant by scaled or offset. Still think you shouldn't force arrays to represent physical locations, but most of my point is invalid at this point.

Best data structure for handling a map depends a lot on the density of the map. If it's very sparse, lots of winding paths/rooms/corridors/etc then a quadtree (or some relative) would likely be the most efficient and performant. If it's a dense map with lots of things in a singular area then a 2D array is a reasonable candidate due to ease of use and memory efficiency.

Clonkex
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 11:06 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 14:23
Quote: "Still think you shouldn't force arrays to represent physical locations"


But it makes everything a thousand times easier and, in a lot of cases, faster. It's not even "forcing" - with most tile- or block-based games, the array indices naturally fit the location. Unless you're tight on memory, it's a great way to reference tiles.

Quote: "Best data structure for handling a map depends a lot on the density of the map. If it's very sparse, lots of winding paths/rooms/corridors/etc then a quadtree (or some relative) would likely be the most efficient and performant. If it's a dense map with lots of things in a singular area then a 2D array is a reasonable candidate due to ease of use and memory efficiency."


Definitely, I have to agree with this. However for the most part, a 2D tiled map editor will use all or most of the indices available, so it's not that wasteful to just use a 2D array. And besides that, in the vast majority of cases memory is no issue.

EDIT:

Anyone in the US bought any "tote" bags, as they're called, with images printed on them recently? We've been producing and shipping tonnes of calico library bags to the US where I work (PhotoCreate) in the past week, and I'm curious if anyone on here was one of the recipients of said bags. I assume the US version of the "images-on-things" factory must be lacking the facilities to produce the bags and thus they've had to send the orders to us to have them produced in Australia and shipped to the US.

budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 14:23
Quote: "Doing things the way Budo suggests, you'd need to loop through every tile in the entire level to find the relevant ones."

Not if you correctly store and access your objects.

Quote: "you should ALWAYS try to have your array indices represent the physical location of your tiles/blocks, even if the indices have to be scaled or offset to do so."

This works if you only want to work within a limited area and with specific tile locations to be used, it's very limited in what you can create and I think that's my problem with it.

"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 16:23
Clonkex, your method of declaring the array like [width*height] is invalid AppGameKit syntax Is my way of declaring it not going to work? I tried many different ways to make that work and it just won't (storing the width * height in a constant ALSO seems to be invalid syntax for some reason...). Any pointers?

It's not that I don't understand arrays, it's that I was tired when I decided to try this yesterday. Now that I've mostly gotten it to work I just need help figuring out how to make it so that I don't create 18 tiles in the same grid space.


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budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 17:33 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 17:34
Quote: "I just need help figuring out how to make it so that I don't create 18 tiles in the same grid space"

Like I said earlier you are never breaking out of your loop, so you need to have



"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 18:02 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 18:09
I had to use exit since AppGameKit doesn't like break.

This is my code, and while I now can create one tile per click, it still will allow me to create a tile in any given gridspace even if a tile already exists there. I went back to a 1D array to see if that helped and it did not.



EDIT: Here's what I tried with the 2D array earlier. After creating the first tile, it won't let me create another one.




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budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 18:44 Edited at: 26th Jul 2015 18:47
You need to set map[x].exist = 1 when you create the sprite.

EDIT:
Just read your edit, the problem there is that you are calling exit in your elseif, so you will only ever run one iteration. Just remove the exit from

Quote: "
ElseIf map[x,y].exist = 1 and click = 1
click = 0
EndIf
"


"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
Dar13
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 18:49
Quote: " Definitely, I have to agree with this. However for the most part, a 2D tiled map editor will use all or most of the indices available, so it's not that wasteful to just use a 2D array. And besides that, in the vast majority of cases memory is no issue."

But then what happens when the user wants to create a sparse tilemap? Then you're stuck with a 2D array when you would really want a quadtree/octree. It's tricky problem with no objectively correct answer.

On another topic, this is what I just finished setting up:


budokaiman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 18:51
Quote: "On another topic, this is what I just finished setting up:"

I've always wanted a vertical monitor, shame I don't own a monitor that can rotate. I plan on getting a 4K monitor sometime in the future, but I'm not going to use that vertically as I'll use it as my main monitor.

"Giraffe is soft, Gorilla is hard." - Phaelax
Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 09:40
Quote: "Clonkex, your method of declaring the array like [width*height] is invalid AppGameKit syntax"


Which AppGameKit are you using? 1 or 2? Also I can't remember AppGameKit array syntax well so I probably got something wrong. ALSO I (probably) solved your issues in the other thread

Quote: "But then what happens when the user wants to create a sparse tilemap? Then you're stuck with a 2D array when you would really want a quadtree/octree. It's tricky problem with no objectively correct answer."


Well yeah, that's where an octree-type thing might be better, but unless you're very tight on memory it's probably not worth the extra effort when a simple 2D array is so fast and easy. As I say, memory use is basically the only real downside of using a big 2D array - and in most cases, it's a pretty small downside.

---------------------------

Aaaaand of course, our latest Flash Buddies video



MrValentine
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 11:58
Big O

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 13:36
Clonkex, thank you! I still have a couple of small issues, please refer back to that thread for details!

Now I must go to work to do a job I barely know how to do. Fun. I love these kinds of mornings...


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 17:25
I don't usually record on my phone when I got to gigs, but I thought I'd give it a go when I went to see Anathema earlier in the year to see how it turns out. I've got a HTC One (M8). And I am quite pleased with the result, granted the video quality isn't great, but I was using the digital zoom, so it wouldn't be, but consider that I am sat at the back end of the rear balcony, this isn't too bad.

The audio quality I think ended up really good (so good in fact that on one of the videos I can hear a couple arguing >.>, I am used to seeing this videos on YouTube and the sound being horrible. But I finally decided to upload one of the videos:



MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 00:08
Object Pool

Dar13
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 00:27
@MrValentine
Wut?

TheComet
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 00:37
<TheComet> .seen thenerd
<GLaDOS> TheComet: I last saw thenerd at 2015-07-22 - 05:30:54 in here, saying see you guys, I'll be back!
<TheComet>

wet fuel can't smelt steel memes
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 01:12
Quote: "Wut?"


Programming techniques....

Dar13
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 01:37
Quote: " Programming techniques...."

Ok...?

MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 01:43
Haha look back at my past posts from this page and the last...

Been studying Programming Patterns...

Going neck deep with C# next... Then .Net

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 28th Jul 2015 18:22
Well looky here, I now have the bare essentials for a grid based map editor!



I even figured out how to draw the grids and delete the tiles on my own. Yay! Easy to do once I understood exactly what I was doing wrong in the first place.

I can't figure out why the examples I was going off of showed the use of a for loop, when it seems to only be required when saving out the map/loading it back in. Maybe it was because the example was designed for a different technique? I guess that's what I get for trying to code something in AppGameKit basic based off of C++

@MrV:

I checked out that book you've been talking about, looks quite interesting! I shall be reading it as well soon!


----------------------------------------------------------------------

An update on my mother! She will be coming home today, she will have spent two weeks in the hospital exactly. It's weird how time has been going so slow, and yet so fast. We should be hearing her pathology results either today, or some other time before Saturday. Hoping for the best! Even if it does end up being cancer we will hopefully have caught it early and they may be able to cure her, so that's what we're really hoping for.

She's so sick of the hospital, and I'm sick of going there every day or so because every time I go there, within an hour or two I get a headache. I don't know if it's because of the lighting there, or the smell (constant cleaner!), or maybe some sounds or something like that, but I don't know how she has put up with it for two weeks! Insanity!

I will be very glad she's home finally, it will make life a bit easier for her!


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 21:01
Glad to hear she's coming back!

Quote: "but I don't know how she has put up with it for two weeks! Insanity!"
I wonder how the people who work there put up with it! Sounds like a non-fun environment in which to work.
TheComet
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 23:45
@Yodaman Jer - In case you missed it, you're welcome to join our little group on IRC. You should have received a skype invite.

wet fuel can't smelt steel memes
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 00:36


The sprite is finally a sprite.

320x224
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 01:01 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 02:34
@TheComet:

Ah, yeah I haven't been on Skype in ages. Too much going on right now haha.

My mother is home and is doing quite well. We probably won't get pathology results for another week though, so one more week of wondering.

In other news, my PC is finally Windows 10 ready! I finally got the notification icon in my system tray (if you don't have it, get it soon, otherwise you can't reserve your free copy!), after running the script in this article and letting it go for almost 40 minutes.

You HAVE to make sure your system is 100% up to date, and that it meets all requirements. If it doesn't, you won't get the notification icon and it means your system isn't compatible for some reason (hardware, software, the way your Hard Drive is set up, etc.,.). I have now reserved my copy and should be getting it soon!

here's a pic:


EDIT: I have more questions in my other thread. Anybody want to take a look? EDIT: I FIXED IT SO FORGET IT


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 02:05 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 02:06
I always wondered why I didn't have that icon -- perhaps the fact that September 2014 was the last time I let my computer update...

Installing update 46 of 61... C'mon, hurry!
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 02:32 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 02:41
I FIXED MY ISSUES so there's no need to go to that thread now!

@DJD64: I NEVER have automatic updates enabled on my system because I HATE having updates install themselves when I go to restart my computer. Plus, it lets me skip bad updates, which Windows 7 has had at least three that I know of, one of which actually had an interesting bug which didn't allow you to create new folders. Very infuriating.

BUT, you have to have automatic updates enabled in order to the get the icon on your system tray. Once I have Windows 10 set up and ready on my system, I am going to disable automatic updates again.

ooooh I am so excited for Windows 10! Better start backing up my stuff in case the update goes screwy. *looks through all folders* Nah, there's nothing on here I would miss terribly if something went wrong.

@Randomness:

Is that exotreve?! PLEASE SAY YES


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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 02:53
Quote: "Is that exotreve?!"

It is.


Quote: " Better start backing up my stuff in case the update goes screwy."

You mean you don't back up your stuff regularly anyway?

320x224
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 03:42
Quote: "It is."



YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY


Quote: "You mean you don't back up your stuff regularly anyway?"


I do, via DropBox, a flash drive I have, and an external hard drive. All of my game projects are automatically stored in a DropBox folder, so they're automatically backed up. I also save copies of them on the aforementioned Flash Drive. Everything else goes on the hard drive!


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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 03:50
Ah, that's a relief. Some people actually don't have backups.

320x224
MrValentine
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 04:49 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 05:29
Quote: "I checked out that book you've been talking about, looks quite interesting! I shall be reading it as well soon!"


I could barely put it down, read it until my noggin dropped onto my tablet screen >.< i guess you saw my FB post about it?

Glad things are getting better somewhat... has she teased you yet?

I just triple backed up in preparation for Windows 10... PRO! [Well three to four systems in this house will be getting Pro, a couple only Home edition upgrades as they are just HP Stream 7s...]

I was thinking to factory wipe my Surface Pro 2 but then figured I might as well test out the upgrade procedure and then create the recovery media and then wipe it for a clean install

Sheet... I got to order some 32GB pen drives

BRB!

EDIT

OK, just ordered four cheap USB3 32GB sticks... they will sit in storage once used to hold the recovery media for Windows 10... Well, I assume 32GB will be enough



Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 05:42
Quote: "It is."
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay progress exists!

Randomness, how are Killa and Paublo doing these days?
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 06:02
Killa felt bad about stealing some of his roommate's rice. Then he learned he has a 50 pound bag of it. He doesn't feel bad anymore.

320x224
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 06:50 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 08:00
Well it depends how much rice he stole. He would still feel bad if he stole 49 pounds of rice. Cool update!

Beh! Spotify has changed the color of their logo. Slightly. Ugly!
The Zoq2
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 12:06
Quote: " I NEVER have automatic updates enabled on my system because I HATE having updates install themselves when I go to restart my computer. Plus, it lets me skip bad updates, which Windows 7 has had at least three that I know of, one of which actually had an interesting bug which didn't allow you to create new folders."


You won't be able to turn of auto updates in windows 10 home which I can see the reason for. But if 7 had 3 critical bugs in their updates, who knows what will happen in 10.

Also, there is the posibility that microsoft will do something similar to windows 8 and force everyone to update to it.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 12:23 Edited at: 29th Jul 2015 12:24
Quote: "I've got a HTC One (M8)."


Yay me too! Love my One M8

Quote: "In other news, my PC is finally Windows 10 ready!"


Yeah we got Mum's computer ready several weeks ago and reserved a copy for her. She'll be the guinea pig - first-adopters and all that. If Windows 10 looks good for her I'll start gearing up to upgrade - although in saying that I'm not sure if I want to just yet given some games or programs I use may stop working. On second thought maybe I'll leave Windows 10 for a few months.

Quote: "I NEVER have automatic updates enabled on my system"


Me too, if only because I don't want anything sucking up our very limited bandwidth when we're trying to play online games, for example. (How do "normal" people that have everything auto-updated ever manage to play online?!)

Quote: "I do, via DropBox, a flash drive I have, and an external hard drive. All of my game projects are automatically stored in a DropBox folder, so they're automatically backed up. I also save copies of them on the aforementioned Flash Drive. Everything else goes on the hard drive!"


WE have an 18TB NAS to back up to! *does gangnam style dance*

Incidentally I highly recommend Bvckup 2 as an awesome backup program. It costs $20 USD but it's well worth it. Extremely polished and very well made, and does the job very well (far better than Acronis TrueImage 2014).

Quote: "I was thinking to factory wipe my Surface Pro 2"


I really want a Surface tablet. They're so cool. I've never really looked at them, so they might already do this, but ideally I'd want one that ran a normal version of Windows so I could run all my normal programs on it.

------------------------------------

Tried my greenscreen yesterday. It's MASSIVE! It'll need to be used outside when it's not even slightly breezy, or inside but folded up a lot.

Yesterday I bought a Rhode SmartLav+ lapel mic to test. If it's good we'll use it for various live-action stuff where my camcorder mic is rubbish. We'll also buy three more, and use a Behringer Q1202USB mixer and a Behringer HA400 microamp along with a few adapters to mix analogue sound and have a FAR better single-PC audio recording solution. With the system we have in mind we'll be able to adjust individual recording levels, and, more importantly adjust individual monitoring levels so we can actually hear each other AND the game AAAND not be totally deafened! Also it will save a great deal of stuffing about in Windows trying to get everything set up, and with the power of the microamp our sisters (who always complain about their earbuds falling out) could use their full-size Logitech headphones instead (Lachy and I have Corsair headphones that are USB only, but we also know how to use earbuds properly). Very exciting idea!

YES I don't have to be at work until 9am tomorrow! I can set my alarm forward 2 hours!

Quote: "You won't be able to turn of auto updates in windows 10 home which I can see the reason for."


??! WHAT?? That's INSANE and would be a complete deal-breaker for me! (Unless Pro can disable updates, that'd be fine cuz I'd use Pro anyway)

MrValentine
AGK Backer
13
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User Offline
Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 29th Jul 2015 12:48
Quote: "I'd want one that ran a normal version of Windows so I could run all my normal programs on it."


Pro series Run Desktop Windows...

Surface 3 however is a shift away from ARM as it is x86 and full Windows...

Surface 1 and 2 [I also have a 2] run Windows 8 RT and come with a full always activated copy of office, so regardless of not upgrading to Windows 10, still a great business device for when away from the office on trips...

I finally got Windows 10 installed and fully updated, I am going to install the Windows 10 Phone Insider preview on my LUMIA 735 now as I think I can screen cast to-and-fro with my Phone and Surface Pro...

I also plan to buy an XBOX One later in the year either that or HoloLense! OR BOTH

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Jul 2015 12:53
Quote: "You won't be able to turn of auto updates in windows 10 home"



Ugh, and of course that's the free upgrade one... so basically I have to spend money for Pro if I want to disable automatic updates?


Well I'll hold off on installing it until I see as many reports of it as possible, make sure it doesn't have any system breaking bugs.


Official Forum President from June 20th, 2015 - June 20th, 2016 (when my successor is elected, whomever that may be!).
MrValentine
AGK Backer
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 29th Jul 2015 13:04
Quote: "for Pro if I want to disable automatic updates?"


You can only defer them...

But something positive for Clonkex may be the option to download updates from Local Computers on your LAN or other closer computers on the internet instead of the servers... [Option of LAN or Both or Disabled] obviously 1 computer has to have downloaded the updates for it to spread of course... but... there is something about partial downloads... ohhh it works two ways, you can download and upload to other peoples computers or just your LAN...

TheComet
17
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User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 29th Jul 2015 13:42
points[/b][b][/b][b][/b][b]

wet fuel can't smelt steel memes

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