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Work in Progress / Night Fall

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 14:52
well you'll want to be taking the top pitchs they should be between 4-16khz just if i remember CoolEdit has a way of inversing the hz of a sound which instant brought it down - else reverb it and then make it quieter that should bring it down enough for you to edit the low 60-30khz

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 16:26
The original WAV sample you saved was 22khz, which means the highest frequency in the sample is only 11khz. There is nothing above that, but I did boost the high-end that was there to crisp it up.

As for inverting the freqency of a sound, I dont know what you're talking about. I mean, what is the inverse of 10khz, for example? 1/10khz? Lower than the human ear can hear, so I dont know what you're getting at. You can invert the amplification, from postive to negative for a frequency range, but thats useless except for cancelling similar sounds out with negative interference. I know cool edit inside and out, and theres no frequency inverter. There's a resampler, pitch shifter and a time stretcher function. Resampling turn the "ticking noises" into clicks which sounded bad, and pitch shifting on a noisey sample doesnt work well.

I dont see how reverbering and reducing the amplifcation will bring down the frequencies. And 60-30khz? You cant even store a 30khz frequency in a 44khz WAV sample. Nyquist theorem - you need at least twice the sample rate of the highest frequency to be stored.

I dont mean to be rude raven, but you havent got the slighest idea what you're talking about, have you?

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 19:46
you only work within the khz your outputting to?

i sent you a 44khz MP3, so i'd suggest you go back and check it again and thats only because i only have Sound Record on this thing and it won't export to 48khz.

that aside i'm talking about the EQ range NOT the Wave range, you can inverse the audio range to get the same to equalised on the opposite side of the spectrum, that way you can play with a bass sound rather than a treble sound. Which if you slow both the treble & bass sound you can then blend them together to get an effective clicky sound...

and just to let you know this ain't me thats trying to explain this, my make Jake is trying to explain it to me - i'm just relaying what he's saying.
And not to sound funny but Cool Edit has a bloody tonne of commands, there is no way you can understand the program inside out or all the possible uses for every single tool, i've been using certain 3D Applications for donkies years and i still couldn't say i 100% understand them

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
randi
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 02:48
YES!!!
I just got off from my morning job and I have no night job on Friday.
This officially starts my vacation.
I don't have to work all this weekend, all next week, and all next weekend.
Now since I don't have any plans, which I do hope that changes, I will have plenty of time to work on my game.
I am almost done with the house.
Once done with the modeling, I will do the coding for the collision to it.
Then I will upload a demo to show what I have so far.
Then I will start making some zombie models, then start building the game play.
I should be able to get most of it done this week.

I am excited!!! I so need a break from work!!

Randi
Fallout
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 15:17
you only work within the khz your outputting to?

No. I work with the frequencies available.

i sent you a 44khz MP3, so i'd suggest you go back and check it again and thats only because i only have Sound Record on this thing and it won't export to 48khz.

No, you didn't send me anything. You uploaded a 22khz 16bit stereo windows PCM WAV file, linked it in a previous post and I downloaded it. Dont worry though, the 11khz to 22khz range isn't overly useful in sounds. Those extra 2khz you get from a 48khz sample are in the same bracket.

that aside i'm talking about the EQ range NOT the Wave range

Ok, I assume by 'EQ range' you mean range of frequencies, but I dont know what you mean by 'wave range'.

you can inverse the audio range to get the same to equalised on the opposite side of the spectrum

This is what I was trying to explain before. There is no "opposite side of the spectrum" in frequency analysis. There is no negative or postive nor front nor back. You simple range from 0 to 22khz (for a 44khz sample) and you cant invert an audio range. All you can do is invert the amplitude dB range from positive to negative etc. which leaves the frequencies intact, just phase shifted by 180 degrees. There is nothing else you can invert. You can't invert frequencies.

that way you can play with a bass sound rather than a treble sound.

I can play with the bass sound rather than the trebble sound by just dragging the sliders on the left of my equaliser rather than the right, or by drawing nice lines in an FFT filter.

Which if you slow both the treble & bass sound you can then blend them together to get an effective clicky sound.

Raven, you are so blagging this! What in gods name are you talking about? Slowing down frequencies to blend them together? If you slow down the freqs of bass and trebble with resampling you'll just get a slower low pitched sound with less high frequencies. Nothing more.

and just to let you know this ain't me thats trying to explain this, my make Jake is trying to explain it to me - i'm just relaying what he's saying.

Ahh, in which case he's blagging it! And dont come back and tell me hes a professional sound engineer because either he's not, you're not listening to him, or he got there by faking his credentials.

And not to sound funny but Cool Edit has a bloody tonne of commands, there is no way you can understand the program inside out or all the possible uses for every single tool, i've been using certain 3D Applications for donkies years and i still couldn't say i 100% understand them

Cool Edit isn't that complicated Raven. I confess I dont use the Brainwave Syncroniser. I've played with it, but it doesnt do much for me. I also dont know how to use the batch processing function, but I rarely need to process hundreds of wav samples anywat. Apart from that, I know all the commands very well. It's not that complex a program (and yes, I am using the most advanced version). In essense you only have around 40 effect functions, where the rest are mainly analysis tools. The sequencer is another kettle of fish, but the WAV editor is straight up, and I know it well.

Knowing how to use the functions properly is an integral part of what I do. I admit it takes a lot of experience to know how every tool can be used in different ways, but I know enough to do whatever I want.

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 16:17
Quote: "There is no "opposite side of the spectrum" in frequency analysis"


don't ask me... but i'd gather when he ment was something not to disimilar to a Binary Reverse
%1100 you do a binary reverse and it becomes %0011 switching the value from 12 to 3 and its all based on 0-15 so thats technically the inverse of what is being input.

As the frequency ranges are from zero i'd gather doing that would reverse the end becuase from what i understand High frequency = Bass and Low = Treble somewhere in the middle are the midtones.

and what i uploaded was a 56kb/sec 24bit MPEG-3 Sample which should be using Stereo 44khz ... maybe a bit less as it wasn't 32bit - but 16bit is 22Khz (i know that much from coding around them)

i really don't know CoolEdit at all apart from to do simple reverbing to add echos and such - make music sound live and voices sound like thier in open spaces

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
Fallout
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 18:35
haha. Funky graphic.

Well, there is no binary inverse function in cool edit, so I wouldn't know how to perform a binary inverse. Similar to an XOR operator I suppose. Either way, that binary inverse function isn't available in cooledit, but seeing as the frequencies arent actually stored in PCM files (its just measurements of amplitude) I dont know if it would be possible to invert all frequencies using that binary inverse thing.

As the frequency ranges are from zero i'd gather doing that would reverse the end becuase from what i understand High frequency = Bass and Low = Treble somewhere in the middle are the midtones.

You had a 50-50 chance there Raven, but low frequencies are bass signals and high frequencies are trebble signals.

and what i uploaded was a 56kb/sec 24bit MPEG-3 Sample which should be using Stereo 44khz ... maybe a bit less as it wasn't 32bit - but 16bit is 22Khz (i know that much from coding around them)

Well, thats not what I got from your link. It was a 22khz 16 bit stereo WAV sample. I wonder what happened there then. Dont know about your MP3 coding software, but the bit depth isn't related to the sample rate at all in PCM. Nothing to stop me having a 4bit 44khz sample, or a 16bit 8khz sample. MP3 samples are obviously a totally different ball game, so they may well mess about with 24bit/32bit encoding techniques, but for your standard PCM WAV, it should be 8 or 16 bit unless you're using a more expensive sound card and some pro music software.

Sorry btw. Didn't mean to turn this into a battle of knowledge or anything. It's just that I can do a lot of things fairly well, but I know I'm no expert in them. Music, on the other hand, has been a serious hobby for 9 years now, and to match my peers productions, I've had to work my ass off to get skills in sound production and mastering. As a result, thats the one area where I believe I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:39
well i ain't really got a clue about the technical side of things os it all ... maybe i should read up on it more, when someone tells me something about how things work i generally take it as gold until i learn it for myself.

i'm pretty good with my music, have an ear for what sounds good and what doesn't musically - though i couldn't really careless about it, i just hate how you know that a voice is reverbed and equalised ona record to sound good cause if these people sung in real life you know that they'd be singing in one key on the record for harmony and sales but another in real-life ... what shocked me about Amy the girl from evanescene cause she can actually really sing was refreshing.
i couldn't tell you anything technical about music niether, i dunno what a rift is or anything like that - but i can hear a tune, got a piano, guitar or something and within a few minutes figure out how to play it. Through trial and error, but still better than what more of these current so-called artists can do lol

just paid to be a pretty face - how sick is that, then they think they're not just a pretty face cause of the fans ... which is even worse.

all this technicals on sound just confuses me though lol

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jun 2003 15:10
Yeah, you give me a good raw vocal and I'd probably add lots of subtle effects to give it some more life and depth (after all a vocal is only really going to be a mono recording, so it needs some more expansion), but if you threw a raw britney spears vocal at me, I'd probably be in the studio for a month pitching each individual syllabul to the right frequency etc. You're right, if you know what you're doing, you can make any vocalist sound good, no matter how crap they actually are.

The thing about sound is it's really simple on a basic level. I mean, technially a sound sample is simply made up of different frequencies (how long it takes one loop to complete one oscillation), amplitude (how loud) and phase shift (when the frequencies start and at what position). You can break it all down pretty easily, and a WAV file is just a serious of amplitude measurements. So a 44khz 16 bit stereo WAV file (CD quality) is basically 2 channels (left and right), of amplitude measurements. These measurements are taken at 44100 times per second, and each measurement is a 16bit integer. Pretty straight forward.

The complexity comes when it comes to the functions available to edit these sounds. In essense you have effects which play with amplitude (dynamic processors like compressors, limiters etc. which just identify different amplitudes and adjust them accordingly. Then you get effects that play with frequency which somehow work out based on the amplitude measurements which frequencies are where etc. and allow you to tweak them. Reverb is just echo with a feedback loop which refeeds the created sound into the reverb module. Then you have phasers, flangers etc. The list goes on, but in essense, they all play with either amplitude, frequency or phase, or a mixture of all of these, so when you understand what each thing is doing and how, you can really control the sound it produces.

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Van B
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 12:15
I know the feeling Randi, I badly need a holiday too.
It's great to take a break and work on something important like DB for a little while, especially during everyone elses working hours, it's so peaceful .

Looking forward to the next demo.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
randi
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 18:36
I almost have a new demo ready.
The house is done, with collision.
I just need to create a way that it all works.
Meaning, how do you find the house?
I am thinking you have to wonder around in the woods for a certain amount of time and then it gets placed in front of you.
It would be impossible to have to find it.
You get lost real easy in the woods.

Randi
Van B
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 18:56
How about randomly placing a character in front of the player, like a white rabbit for instance, say you had a little bunny rabbit.

Now every so often you'd place the bunny in front of the player out of view, but in such a way that the player will find it. Now the bunny runs towards the house. If the player gets lost, they just need to keep their eye's peeled for the bunny. You could be super creepy and have some ravens do the same job, like fly towards the house, but maybe having something as innocent as a bunny would be a good contrast to the zombies. The cool thing is, the player won't expect it - just have weird glowing eyes in a bush, then have the little bugger jump out and scarper away (perhaps it senses it's mommy(aka little girl) has come home) - the player will instinctively want to follow it.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 18:57
The best way to get someone lost in a game is with a maze. Maybe you could make a random path through the woods, similar to a maze, and if you step off the path you are attacked by zombies after about 5 seconds.
Fallout
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 20:20
I really like the bunny idea, although a bunny might be a bit too cute and fluffy. Maybe a fox or something would be better.

Also, I think positional audio would kick ass. Use the 3D effects in db, and have some sorta noise coming from the house, then as the player turns around, itd be in their left speaker, then their right speaker etc. Some sorta really really submissive chanting type sound, that fits almost perfectly with the ambient wind etc, but you can just about make it out, and you'll be able to figure out where its coming from because of the positional audio.

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Van B
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Posted: 1st Jul 2003 21:43
Yeah, it is cutesy, but it's more a psychological trick, everyone knows Alice, and that's a pretty freaky story. Once they get to the house, it'd be cool if it was empty, then the player would think there safe. Like avoid the zombies and follow the cute bunny, which leads you to a house which is about to be surrounded in the undead . I think it needs to be a bright character, because it needs to stand out.

Some sounds would be cool, there's lots you can do with an old house, squeeky hinges, porch doors slamming shut in the wind - this would help give the impression that the house is empty too.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
randi
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 07:09
What I want to do is...
After getting out of the graveyard, you go wonder around the woods.
You will of course encounter zombies here too.
At some point the house will come into play and at that time you will be forced in the right direction by zombies.

I have it set up right now, without zombies.
But something is weird with the collision.
When the house gets position and you get close, it jumps you into a certain room.
It all has to do with the collision I created.
I don't use DB collision, I have my own and it has a bug in it some place.

Randi
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 12:39 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2003 12:44
Ahh, well you could just have an arc around the player, like each time you position a new zombie, position it around the player but leave a gap in the direction of the house. Untested, but maybe something like this:

xd#=playerx#-housex#
yd#=playerz#-housez#
houseang#=atanfull(xd#,yd#)
zombiang#=wrapvalue(houseang#+45+rnd(270))
zombix#=playerx#+sin(zombiang#)*100.0
zombiz#=playerz#+cos(zombiang#)*100.0

This (assuming it works how I expect) should give you a 90 degree gap in the direction of the house that zombies won't appear in - so they'd surround you but leave an escape route in the direction of the house. The angle calculation (atanfull) could be used to guage your angle in relation to the zombies too.

What sort of collision are you using on your house? (polygonal, array, box, cube, statics?) - sounds like a pretty nasty bug.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
Fallout
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 13:45
Randi, I share your pain, believe. I'm responsible for collision for our current project, and over the last couple of weeks I've been programming our own sliding (players), bouncing (grenades, shrapnel, flying body parts) and bullet collision for customisable maps. Its all working, but now I'm having to program wall destruction, as in our game, the entire level is destructable (we've got it working so that we can dynamically create holes in walls by editting meshes in memblocks). Lets just say I'm sick of it. Its about as fun as shaving your tongue with an antrax coated razor blade, but it's just gotta be done.

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
randi
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 19:27
I guess my collision would be arrays.
I mapped all the places that you CAN go and put them in a text file that gets read into an array.
Then I have a function that can find out what "ZONE" you are in, if any.
The collision tests to see if you are outside of the current zone.
If you are it calls the function to see if you are in a new zone.
If you are, the zone variable gets updated.
If you are not, you get repositioned based upon the parameters of the zone you were supposed to be in.
It works real good and fast, but it does have some draw backs.
1.. it can only be done in square zones, so no diagonal walls.
2.. sometimes the zones have to be next to each other, along a wall, and you will not slide from one to the other.

Other than that, it is very fast and perfect collision.
It works fine for what I need.
In DBC I had a very good collision going.
Using the static walls and angles.
But that is all changed in DBP and I haven't really played with it.

I think the problem that I have is the zone gets confused when you first come up on the house.
After the first glitch, it all works fine.

Van B
That is my what I am doing.
Funnel the person towards the house.

Fallout
That sounds very hard and tiresome.
anthrax coated razor blade
That's gross!!

Randi
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2003 20:05
My collision and wall destruction is exactly 998 line at the moment and it represents some of the more complex code I've ever written. Thats one of the real advantages of working with someone else whos a very competitent coder. It drives you to excel in your own work. My previous collision efforts were very similar to yours randi. All horizontal/vertical box based, and it was damn quick. This stuff is all gradient based, using wall gradients, cutting points, normals, lots of pythagoras, lots of quadratics, simulatenous equations for line intersects ... etc .. the works! Painful, but satisfying, and its very modular, so I'll never have to write this stuff again. Easily ported to future projects.

The thing is though, you make what you need, and it sounds like your collision is ideal for your game, and will save you a whole lot of headaches.

But eh .... I cant wait until we can start pushing out screenshots and gameplay information for our game. It's still in its really early stages, and its going to take us all summer at least. There's no point going off on one and running my mouth off about its only about 2% done, but I can say I'm really excited about it, and it'll definitely be something at the very top end of db game releases. I'm wearing my massive big headed boasting hat, I know, but I'm totally confident in this one, and I don't get excited about this sorta thing easily. It's just real hard to keep my mouth shut. lol

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
http://www.breakbeat-terrorism.co.uk
(It's not all about the coding)
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2003 03:56
Ahh, in Jetpac I used a sorta array collision on slices of the object, I tried to get it so it returned the new positions - but that caused serious speed problems because it needed to check the entire object. Also, it is very difficult to prevent the player getting stuck. I decided to scrap that and just have a function now that returns a value if there's a collision, totally got rid of the jerks, made it faster and was much easier to work with.

Why not make a function that returns a 1 if there's a collision with the wall, the idea is you store the player position, move the player, then use both sets for sliding collision.

If your function was called col(x#,y#,z#) and returned a 1 if the location is inside a wall, this psuedo code would give you nice sliding collision.

OPX#=playerposx#
OPY#=playerposy#
OPZ#=playerposz#

`Move the player

if col(playerposx#,playerposy#,playerposz#)=1
if col(playerposx#,OPY#,OPZ#)=1 then playerposx#=OPX#
if col(OPX#,playerposy#,OPZ#)=1 then playerposy#=OPY#
if col(OPX#,OPY#,playerposz#)=1 then playerposz#=OPZ#
endif


You would have to use gravity, but when you hit the floor, the Y collision will return the player to the previous Y position. This is not ideal because it means going uphill would be impossible, so perhaps you can store the ground height in an array and use that on the Y collision.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
randi
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 06:41 Edited at: 4th Jul 2003 06:42
Ok.. here is a new demo.
I haven't worked on it, on my vacation, as much as I planned.
I found other things to do.
Like clothes shopping!!
But I won't go into that. Unless you want me to!!

Some known issues are...
*the transparency is no good because of P4.1
This will be fixed in U5, so I hear.
*the collision is not the best. explained above.
*the models in the house are not the best, will fix.
*tree models not so great, will fix.
*may be a slight slowdown when facing a certain way in the house.
This is due to the models, will fix.
*no collision on the one zombie yet. waiting until I get more zombies made.
*other general stuff. Needs some fixing up.

But here is the demo...
3.78MB
http://home.att.net/~thetowers/Night_Fall.rar

Randi
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 19:08
Tried the new Demo, made me a bit jumpy with the girl in the house. I was kinda hoping that the house would be bigger. The footstep sound effects were a bit to crackly. I would also prefer a higher contrast on the B/W effect. The Demo is quite good, but improvements would make it Five Stars.
Van B
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 19:17
Go on then Randi, tell us what you've bought - although I can guess that there very similar to all your other clothes, they cost too much, and within a month you'll be complaining that you've nothing to wear .

What is wrong with transparencies in P4.1? - I can't remember having problems, except you can't disable lighting on an object you want to fade.


Van-B

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randi
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 21:16 Edited at: 4th Jul 2003 21:18
Well... since you asked.

Actually, I only have few expensive clothes.
You can have a lot nice or clothes or a few really nice clothes.
I prefer to have lots of nice clothes.
Thus starts my shopping story.

Me and my mother went to this place called 'Ross'.
They sell fashionable stuff but cheap.
I have an event comming up that I wanted a new outfit for.
So looking through the clothes we found some cute tops.
But then I found this really cute skirt.
It's a mesh, with built in slip, and it is tan and blue.
It has ruffles and a flower print.
It is very pretty and sexy too.
We looked all over for a top to go with it and couldn't find anything.
I went ahead and bought the skirt.
It didn't have a price tag and it was the last one, so they gave it to me for $6.
We then went looking at other stores to find a top.
We found some that matched, but they were the too heavy of material or they were the wrong size.
We finally found one, but my mom said it was too tight.
I said it is supposed to be. But you know moms!
We ended up going to over 12 stores and never found anything.
So we ended up going back and buying the tight one.
Any way...
It is very cute.

What is this thread about? Oh yeah.. Night Fall!

If you downloaded the demo.
Look at the shadows at the foot of the tombstones, or the windows on the house, or the shadows at the foot of the trees.
In 16bit mode they are all pixelly.
this is supposed to be fixed in U5.

@ Pincho
Quote: "I would also prefer a higher contrast on the B/W effect. "

Please explain.
Also.. their will be improvememnts.
I know it needs some.

Randi
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 21:49
I always feel an overwhelming sense of dread when a woman talks about shopping. There's this little niggling scratching creature in the back of my head, reminding me of all those times I've been forced into shops with girlfriends, and been bored shitless while having to lie through my teeth about what looks good, just to avoid upsetting them.

Thanks Randi. I'll be having nightmares tonight, and its not from your new demo either (which is looking pretty good).

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
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Arrow
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 22:28
I couldn't even find the house, you get lost easy. I don't know what you were trying to do but that electic sound is anyoing!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 22:46
Higher contrast would be darker black, less grey. What you have at the moment is a lot of Mid-Tones..light grey to dark grey. Mainly the girl would look better with blacker tones, and inside the house. The trees are way too simplistic too. How about realistic trees.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Jul 2003 22:48
it might just be me being daft but i walked around for 30mins and couldn't find the house. there were alot of areas which just went almost totally dark though.

but i'm gonna keep my comments about the game to min for a while.
just wait for updates

as for the clothes shopping ... i'm gonna play the bloke card and say its hard to imagine how that ensamble looks, so any pictures might be useful to help our limited imaginations.

Van B
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 00:08
Randi,

Downloaded the latest demo, very cool .

How are you handling the shadows? - you can dark ghost them, and use a shadow image with a background of middle grey (r128g128b128) and a darker shadow. This would make the shadows more translucent and show the ground through them.

Love the windows BTW.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
randi
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 00:15
@ Arrow
I think you just had a typo and were meaning electric sound.
And what I think you are talking about are the locust.
But noted.

@ Pincho
OK... I understand.
Not sure what to do, but I get what you are saying.
I know the trees need work.
That is in my "known issues" above.

About the house...
Actually the house is real easy to find, if you know how.
Right now, the house gets placed in front of you after you walk a certain distance away from the graveyard.
When the zombies are made, they will funnel you towards the house.
But for now, if you want to find the house...
Walk straight in any direction from the graveyard.
You will find it.

As for clothes shopping...
I never take guys with me, unless they are paying for them.
All they do is complain, and they wouldn't know what is cute if there were a big neon sign pointing to it saying "THIS IS CUTE".
Whats worse than taking a guy shopping for girl clothes?
Taking a guy shopping at the fabric store.
OH MY GOD!!!

@ Raven
I hope you are not asking to see a picture of me in my new outfit.
Because that isn't going to happen.
Put a picture up of me with all these guys who love to criticize?
I will pass!
Besides my avatar is a picture of me wearing nothing but a bra.
Just unfortunately it's small and has my name written over it.


Randi
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 01:10
... well oki maybe not a public display, but i have many emails (oki that was a long shot but worth a try) hehee

and you think a guy is normall difficult shopping with - should come shopping with me sometime, i'm a nightmare unless your the same as me - i can be good for about an hour, and i've got alot of fashion sense - but once my patience goes with looking at the same two bloody tops for ages, i'll either say "look why not just get both!" or say what i really think of them (which is oftenly not good lol)

Fallout
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 03:20
You know it!! The 5 most annoying things of shopping with a woman are:

No.5 "What do you think of this?" .. she asks, when really its a trick question and you have only one choice of answer.

No.4 "I just need to return this" .... when they f*cking loved it the last time they dragged you shopping and bought it.

No.3 "I'm just going to try these 8 things on." ... and there's nowhere for you to sit, and nothing to keep you occupied.

No.2 "I'm just going to look. I'm not going to buy anything." .... quite simply, what the f*ck is the point?!?!? lol

And the most annoying no.1 thing is ...

No.1 "This is the last shop!!!" followed by .. "Ok, but just a quick look in this one".
MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!! THE PARKING TICKET EXPIRED TWO HOURS A GO AND I WANT A MACDONALDS!

Why we still love women, I have no idea.

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randi
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 05:38
That's pretty funny, and true.
I was laughing!!

But I am sure I could think of some guy stuff too.

You would not want to go shopping with me, that is for sure!!
And the way it sounds I wouldn't want to take you with me.
But the good thing is...
Here in the US, we have plenty of parking and you don't have to pay.
At least most places.

Why do you love us women?
Because for the most part we are great.
You know you enjoy playing with me on this forum!!

Randi
Fallout
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 16:23
I love women because I delude myself into believing my next relationship will feature these things:

-Great sex
-No arguments
-Strong emotional bond
-Much in common
-Very good communication skills

And won't feature these things:

-Dull sex
-Pointless arguments, which I then say are pointless, and which then pisses off my girlfriend because to her it's an issue, to me it's pathetic and that makes it even worse! lol
-Strong emotional bond manifesting itselfs into me being a slave and her attempting to wear the trousers.
-The original signs of us having much in common slowly becomes a few vague things we have in common and the rest being lies to impress me at the time.
-Very good communication skills, basically meaning being phoned all the times, getting 1000 text messages a day, being shouted at at ear piercing volume and plenty of physical communication techniques like slaps and punches to the face.

Ok, maybe a bit over the top there. lol. My last girlfriend was anything but - she was too nice. Yes, you can get sick of someone because they're too nice. When you always get your own way and always win arguments, and every word you say is taken as gold, you lose interest pretty quickly.

Anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling now! Yes, Randi, I love playing with you, especially sinse you told us your avatar features you in nothing but a bra. My question to you is ... eh ... why where the bra?

My Avatar just features a bad picture of me and my eye ball being zoomed in on. How original. I would've taken a photo of me just wearing a bra, but ... ahh well .. I dont have one. Shame.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 20:35
Quote: "I would've taken a photo of me just wearing a bra, but ... ahh well .. I dont have one. Shame. "


currently the one of me is being use for blackmail purposes

if my eyes are good though Randi's av has a nice kinda silky blue bra on - could be wrong, might be more of a light purple or pink, hard to tell at this size. but the way the light is reflecting i'm pretty sure its kinda silky.

ya know i don't remember if you did Randi, but for nightfall you could do a very good effect if you made the sound in surroud/3d (atleast for peeps like me with Surround Sound hehee) be cool to walk into the house then hear from behind "uuugggghhh"

Arrow
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 21:13
I always thought in Randy's Avitar she was wering a brides maid dress or a nightie (no clue to the spelling).

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randi
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 23:16
I always thought in Randy's Avitar she was wering a brides maid dress or a nightie

HAHAHA!! That's funny.

Well.. you're both wrong.
It's just a white bra. But is silky! No lace.

That picture was taken for an old boyfriend.
One time I had come home for work, got online while changing out of my scrubs.
When I was in nothing but bra and panties, my old boyfriend came online.
So I took a picture of me and sent it to him.
He was out of town on business.

Some time later I wrote my name on it, shrunk it, and made it my avatar.
What a great story huh?

@ Fallout
I sure hope you are going over the top there.
You will never find anyone that will for you.
Sorry their can't be more "Randi's" in the world.
It sure would be a much nicer place.


Randi
Fallout
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 23:44
lol. I was exaggerating, just a little. All my relationships have been pretty uneventful argument wise. I've got the temper of a goldfish, and i dont have time for women with attitude problems. Still, there's some truth in what i was saying.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 02:09
lol... you might be exagerating mate, but i've been out with a few girls just like that.

the way i see it you can generally type women as 4 types of cars ...
Porsche/Ferrari - fast, nice to look at, just as good to drive & they require almost no looking after at all.

Volkswagon/Nissan - pleasent to drive, they require som minor tinkering and love but on the whole they'll go for donkies yeards before they give you any major problem ... even then it won't cost too much to repair.

2nd Hand Ford/Citroen - they're horrible to drive, you stand them because you have some infinity for them (but what always seems to illude you when they need another new part for the one you just replaced) and what you though was a good bargin at the start turns out to bandrupt you.

Pickup Truck - they're big, noisey, create alot unessisary bildge, but you can repair them pretty cheaply (that is provided the gas guzzling doesn't break your wallet first) ... and they are reliable.

hehee ... i do have a good few other types but those are the main four. Seem to find alot of smaller women fit into the 3rd category, maybe its just something about them being so tiney but they seems to require so much attention and care else you'll find them playing fair only with another owner (bleck!)

ya know if you could just get rid of some of the guys though, mostly the ones who are just wastes of space and replace them with a little randi clone i'm sure that'd make the world better than replacing the women

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 03:41
lol. Comparing women to cars! It's a good job there arent too many women on this forum, else that'd cost ya!

Only women I dont like are gold diggers. Whenever one of my female mates says something like "and he's got a load of money" I want to throw them into a pit and pile tons of rocks onto them. But it's always the best looking ones that are gold diggers - they can have any bloke they like, so why not have one with lots of money. The thing is, they'll pass up a guy who's more decent, for another one whos ok but it rich. Pathetic. I'm not short of a few bob either (I'm broke as a peasant now, but normally I do ok), so that's not coming from the poorpers perspective.

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randi
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 04:02
Well... I compare guys to shoes.

-Some look real good but hurt like crazy.
-Some are way out of style, but are comfortable.
-Some are too big. (yes.. it's what you're thinking)
-Some are too small. (that's right! I said it!)
-Some don't last very long. (HEHEHE)
-And some are just perfect and last forever. (yeah right)

Just kidding.
I don't compare guys with shoes. I just made that up.
Pretty good for off the top of head, huh?

It's also OK to look for a guy with money.
I wouldn't base a relationship around it.
But women do make less money in this world.
And I believe that women do need men to take care of them for some things, and men need women for some things.
It's just a fact.

Girls need guys to...
-make money and buy us stuff.
-Kill bugs.
-take out the trash.
-and other manly stuff.

Guys need girls to...
-take care of them when they are sick. (because all of the sudden they become big babies)
-cook and clean. (or at least make them think we do)
-and sex. (to keep them from masterbating)

(this should get a good response)

Randi
Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 04:38
ROFL ... and sex, to keep us from masterbating? hahahahahahahaha.

..... but so true, also.

The generalising stops there though. Here's how I shape up to your "girls need guys to and guys need girls to" lists:

Girls need guys to...
-make money and buy us stuff.
haha! hahahaha! hah! hah. Oh, I'm a romantic, and I buy gifts, but I dont hand over the credit card, slap them on the butt and tell them to enjoy themselves.
-Kill bugs
Got that right! And enjoy it too. No spiders out the window here. 100% squashed dead, even if it leaves spider juice on the wall. I hate the things. My theory is, if you put them out the window, they'll only crawl back in, so terminate with extreme prejudice.
-take out the trash
50-50 on this one. I'm no slave!
-and other manly stuff.
What, put up shelves, build flat pack furniture and wash the car? Ok .... you got me there.

Guys need girls to...
-take care of them when they are sick. (because all of the sudden they become big babies)
I'm never sick unless it alcohol related, but on the rare occasion I am, I must admit ... having a woman around is handy.
-cook and clean. (or at least make them think we do)
I'm a master chef!!! Curry master. Master of italian dishes also. Nobody comes close! Stay out of my kitchen!
-and sex. (to keep them from masterbating)
Sometimes sex has to be supplemented, if you have a high sex drive .... uhh ....

Damn, I was already to trash your list, but it actually turned out pretty spot on. Ahh, well, here're my additions:

Men need women ...
-for their breasts
-for oral sex
-to cuddle up to at night
-to laugh at our jokes
-to tell them its the biggest they've ever seen.
-to give them someone to be protective over.

Including those above, I need a woman ...
-who loves my music scene, and therefore loves my music.
-to tell me if I missed a spot when I shave my head.
-to appreciate my nipples are in no way errogonous. (HAHA)
-to understand cuddling up is good at the beginning of the night, but when I just want to sleep at 4am, she needs to stay to her side of the bed. lol
-to appreciate that early morning 'excitement' is a natural muscle reflex and does not mean I want to be attacked while I'm still trying to sleep

hehe. I'm amusing myself here.

Women also need men ...
-to constantly boost their self confidence with a cunning set of pre-formulated complements (ideally to respond to any surprise questions)
-to be good at oral sex (hehehe)
-to listen to them, even when what they're saying is far less interesting than whats on TV.
-to never give them advice unless its asked for, because mens logical minds and womens emotionally traumatic experiences do not mix.

How am I doing?

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randi
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 05:21
You crack me up!!
That was funny.

Hmmm.. let's see how I compare...

Men need women ...
-for their breasts
I have them, but not my best quality. BUT SOMEDAY!!!
-for oral sex
FIVE STARS THERE!!!
-to cuddle up to at night
Now wait... that's a girl thing.
-to laugh at our jokes
HAHAHA...HEHE.. yep, I can do that!
-to tell them its the biggest they've ever seen.
Yeah OK, I can lie there too.
-to give them someone to be protective over.
Nothing I can really do there, but it is something that girls love.

Including those above, I need a woman ...
-who loves my music scene, and therefore loves my music.
no comment.
-to tell me if I missed a spot when I shave my head.
That sounds easy enough.
-to appreciate my nipples are in no way errogonous.
I figured that out a long time ago.
-to understand cuddling up is good at the beginning of the night, but when I just want to sleep at 4am, she needs to stay to her side of the bed.
Oh no! That's your job!!
-to appreciate that early morning 'excitement' is a natural muscle reflex and does not mean I want to be attacked while I'm still trying to sleep
Well... what about at night when you are too drunk to get 'excitement'


Women also need men ...
-to constantly boost their self confidence with a cunning set of pre-formulated complements
Well... Maybe... you can call me Princess Randi
-to be good at oral sex
Obviously never assisted with a Pap Smear. But yeah, hey keep up the good work!
-to listen to them, even when what they're saying is far less interesting than whats on TV.
You better!
[u]-to never give them advice unless its asked for, because mens logical minds and womens emotionally traumatic experiences do not mix[/u].
You are very well trained. Someone did a good job!

Randi
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 07:41
lmao... so many things to go through

Quote: "-for their breasts
I have them, but not my best quality. BUT SOMEDAY!!!"

lol you'd be surprised
personal preference (and i know its a shared one) is to have a nice real pair they don't have to be big, just ya know preferably enough that you can cup :">

Quote: "-for oral sex
FIVE STARS THERE!!!"

its annoying, girls are either totally up for it and love it... else they hate it and won't. kinda goes along side the Spit or Swollow question

lol nothing worse that a spitter who can't be bother to get themselves to the bathroom

Quote: "-to laugh at our jokes
HAHAHA...HEHE.. yep, I can do that!"

yup, ever notice that girls tend to laugh at the wrong points though

Quote: "-to tell them its the biggest they've ever seen.
Yeah OK, I can lie there too."

or just trying to refrain from saying "is that all there is?"

Quote: "-to give them someone to be protective over.
Nothing I can really do there, but it is something that girls love."

yup, we love the knight in shining armour stuff, it makes us feel all manly - after you've just caked us in makeup because you're bored.


Women also need men ...
Quote: "-to constantly boost their self confidence with a cunning set of pre-formulated complements
Well... Maybe... you can call me Princess Randi"

god knows why but the odd comment like, "damn you look good today, you loose some weight?" seems to do more wonders than spaish fly ever could

Quote: "-to be good at oral sex
Obviously never assisted with a Pap Smear. But yeah, hey keep up the good work!"

erm nope... and never want to either
problem most guys have is they miss the goal and go for the hole hehee

Quote: "-to listen to them, even when what they're saying is far less interesting than whats on TV.
You better!"

ya know the best guys tend to build up thise little thing when watching TV where you can take down the keypoints of what a woman is saying so when she goes "are you listening to me?" you can sit there and repeat kinda what she said

saying sorry if your not can help too... just try to remember that if she says "you don't mean that" the correct response is "i'm truely sorry hon, tell ya what why don't i take you out somewhere?" not "your lucky i said sorry at all!" (the second one hurts )

Quote: "- to never give them advice unless its asked for, because mens logical minds and womens emotionally traumatic experiences do not mix.
You are very well trained. Someone did a good job! "

lmao ... you don't give advice even when they ask for it, just reaffirm whatever they say (and be willing to take the blame when things go wrong)

Girls need guys to...
Quote: "-make money and buy us stuff."

thats why my platium card always seems to go missing
Quote: "-Kill bugs."

some don't let us actually kill them... most of the time you have to capture it in a jar and let it free
Quote: "-take out the trash."

not in this lifetime ... thats what you have kids for
Quote: "-and other manly stuff."

(^_^) we're good at manly stuff, until you realise we're actually terrible at it and watch us struggle all day, offer some help around lunchtime just for us to say "NO, i can do it!" and then finally give up when footie is on, just for you to do it within 5minutes.

Guys need girls to...
Quote: "-take care of them when they are sick. (because all of the sudden they become big babies)"

we just love being pandered, and we can get away with it when we're sick
Quote: "-cook and clean. (or at least make them think we do)"

yeah, your roped in by a woman who claims she can cook... when your in the trap all of a sudden if you don't want take away you need to learn howto use that saucer (blasted conspiricy i tells ya!)
Quote: "-and sex. (to keep them from masterbating)"

sounds like a good enough reason

Arrow
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 08:39 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 08:40
In the 4 hours these posts have been up, I'm surprized that a Mod hasn't shown up to remind you all that a fair pecentage of veiwers here are 14'ish.

I'm cursed being one of those guys that can't understand why girls won't give me the time of day and insted go off with the cheating, womanizer football player. However this last weekend I found out why, girls find me "creepy". Maybe it's the long hair, trench coat, or the fact I (something very uncommon around here) 'think', that gives of this "he might attack me" vibe. I don't understand it one bit, it's not like I ack creepy. I can have conversation without the stuttering, Friodian slips, or otherwise ack that make me look foolish or hostile; nor do I stare (in general or at specific parts). Oh well, I'm moving in a few day to a bigger city (not to hard considering my current location), maybe the female population may be a little more forgiving towards philosophers with long hair and a long coat.


In the lastest demo I only get that deep electric buzzing sound when I turn or move. I don't know if it was supposed to be footsteps and my sound card is seriously messing up or what.

[edit] Nuts, was hoping that'ld look a bit moore comic-like.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 10:01
i wouldn't count on arrow
girls in cities tend to like 2 types of blokes ...
cute rich guys
cute & buff idiots

though one thing about long hair is girls only like certain styles i've noticed ... personally i think my hair short or long looks a complete mess - girls are nuts over it, they're all like "aww i wish i had curly hair like that" and "aww you can't cut your hair i love to run my fingers through it"

its bloody insane, but then i've never had "long" hair, its always just been like down to my ears ... and thats only cause i usually can't be arsed to walk down to a hairdressers. (i'm so lazy lol)

but hair can seem to make or break you, trying to be all dark and mysterious perhaps even a little gothic might be a nice display of who you are and all that crap - but there are other ways to express who you are other than looking like someone just dug you up.
ya know what i mean?

personally i tend to always try (keyword try lol) to look like i've atleast made an attempt to look good when i go out ... ya know try to make my hair nice, put one some cloths which match and have more than a single colour, sort myself out to smell pretty good.

i mean its just general things alot of guys i know just don't do - i mean most won't sit there and even put 2mins effort combing thier hair, ya know why most have like grade1 cuts? its so they spend a min just hinting shampoo through it and they don't have to use a combe.

its all about as minimal effort as possible ... but when your trying to actually attract a girl ya need to show that they're worth the effort ... like doing something bold, or like just making yourself look drop-dead-gorgeous

you think a guy falls over a pretty face, you ain't seen nothing cause women shamelessly flirt with any pretty boy.
(and when a guy actually notices they're flirting then you can just imagine how obvious it is!)

lol oki i've rambled on a bit here, gonna leave it there today - just think if this were real life you'd hardly get 2-3 words outta me, ya don't believe me just ask Rose how talkative i am lol
thats the one trait about me that makes people nervous, that and i tend to look to "serious" all the time ... not sure what that means but whatever

randi
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 13:54 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 13:56
In the 4 hours these posts have been up, I'm surprized that a Mod hasn't shown up to remind you all that a fair pecentage of veiwers here are 14'ish.

We haven't been all that graphic.
It's been kept as clean as the subject can be.
Besides it's nothing more than what you see on television.

..."creepy"
Now of course the 'rock star bad boy' is sexy, but it doesn't sound like the look you have.
"the long hair, trench coat"
When you try to imagine that, it does sound creepy.
And the fact that you "think" has no part of it.

Girls want to feel protected, not scared. (Read above)
-to give them someone to be protective over.
Nothing I can really do there, but it is something that girls love.
yup, we love the knight in shining armour stuff, it makes us feel all manly

This is why they go for the "womanizer football player".
And you will find moving will not help anything.
Girls are the same the world over.

Randi
Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 15:12 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 16:15
Do a Fallout, Array. A Fallout is a dynamic image shift which occurs once every 6 months or so. Spikey hair, shaven head. Hoodys to shirts. Skate shoes to smart shoes. Keeps everyone on their toes.

As for 14 year old kids reading this conversation - come on ... 14 year old kids these days aren't exactly shelted. I bet there's 14 year old kids on here that could teach us all a thing or two about oral sex! lol lol lol

This is why they go for the "womanizer football player".
And you will find moving will not help anything.
Girls are the same the world over.


Ok, in essense women are the same, but situation and place does definitely change women too. I mean, if you're the only half decent bloke in a quiet back-water, then you're in there. If you're very 'different' and you live in a big ass city full of other people who are 'different' then you're going to be more accepted.

I think, even though I'm slim (I'm still 6'2") I can get away with the protective image, I think. Ya know, whether it's true or not, who knows. I look fairly hard - that helps - hehe -

http://www.kontact-kru.com/FalloutSmoke.jpg

I'm sure Randi will love that photo, in light of what I'm doing. hahaha.

Why not ... the room photo -

http://www.kontact-kru.com/FalloutStudio.jpg

Someone else better put up photos of themselves, else I'm gonna look like a complete nonce for putting mine up. (Btw, I editted out the img tags because it was embaressing seeing my face come up on this forum. hehe)

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Arrow
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Location: United States
Posted: 6th Jul 2003 20:15
Don't got any recent photos, however my self portat on my site is prety close, just add glasses and 20 pounds. I do live out in backwater country, most people out here never even heard of Rage Against the Machine or System of a Down. As for the hair, I look like a lesbian with short hair, I'm soo not kiding. Even with it long, girls tell me "I'ld love to have your hair", I hate that!
Quote: "And the fact that you "think" has no part of it."
Oh I think it does, since most human interaction comes from work (live in in a town with 100 pop, drive 20 miles to work at another townwith a pop. of 500), most people don't get the chance to see me in a my coat.

As for looking gothic, lets say I'm not the right build for it, to be a male goth you need to be small and pasty or completely buffed out. That and I'm not a goth, and after mt Junior year at high school, I realized I don't like goths. Sure being all dark and gloomy is fun once and a while, but alll the time? Plus it is one of the more expecive stereotypes, the lipstick, the nail polish, the fish net sockings, too expecive. I don't beleave in buying anything that won't last more than a day, except food.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass

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