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Program Announcements / The Elimination of Evil - al Qaeda first shooter demo

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Arrow
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Posted: 8th May 2003 08:58
I think you missed the point I was making, joining terrorist or starting wars with those you placed in power years ago is the same thing in my mind, just a different degree. World domiation little too much to give this man credit for, he'll be out of office next election, lickied-spit.

I won't be so arogant or self rightous to dictate where someone does/should go when they die, hell religon is half the reason their is all this crap. The Single God baced religions (Christians, Muslums, and Jews [thought they're not as bad as the rest]) are half of this confict, if you get right down to it. You never this kinda hate in Pagan, Druid, or Buddist religeons, last I checked they weren't involed in the bloodiest wars in world history (except the Buddists and Shintos in early Japanese history, but at least they have no outstanding grudges remaining).

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D Man
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Posted: 8th May 2003 09:32
God never started attacking other religions, as well as Allah.
You cannot blame other religions for this, only the people that are responsible for the war.
And btw. war is never a solution, even not when an "oppressed" people should be "freed".

God is real, unless declared integer.
Arrow
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Posted: 8th May 2003 21:16
Religion is nothing but socialised worship, it is the political organization of those who share the same beliefs. Like any chain of command, all it takes is one bad apple to destory all below it. When you place a greedy man (most western religions have a anti woman thing) in charge of religius beleifs, you will have moral coruption and war. I still don't know how you could have both the Crusades and the Fifth Commandment at the same time.

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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 9th May 2003 00:20
I don't want to bring up old buried hatchets, but did I just hear a German say "War is never a solution"?
I would have thought Germans would have supported all these kinds of wars. It causes chaos in the economies of all involved countries, but Germany can't get involved as they're not allowed to have an army. This means Germany benefits as their economy is comparatively better off than other countries'. Since WWII, Japan has had the fastest growing economy in the world - Why? Because they haven't been allowed an army therefore they don't waste money on weapons. That is why the British and American economies are in such a terrible state. The rest of the world would be so much better off if we weren't so stupid building new weapons. If we took the money we would normally spend on defence, we could sort all the problems in the third world and middle east. This would mean there would not be these rogue middle eastern states, meaning the only countries posing a threat to Western countries is themselves, and in this day every Western country is allied to every other, so there would be no need for weapons at all. This might seem a bit idealistic but it is the only way forward for this world.

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Arrow
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Posted: 9th May 2003 01:58 Edited at: 9th May 2003 02:02
Accully Japan has an Amry, it's called the Self Defence Force. They're not aloud to deploy outside there country, but they got a defence. The reason Japan has such an economy is mostly socail and not polictical. The Japanese strive to work as a whole, the team is placed higher than the indvidual. Also they have a nation wide school standard where you must take exams to gat into high school. College exams are the hardest in the world and those who don't or can't get into college are considered outcasts. You're considered an adult at 13 and can start work at that age as well. Japan's obsation with technogoly aslo play a big part into it as well.

As for war, I will admit that there are times when it is nessary, but I haven't seen such a case since WWII.

[Edit] By the way, Germany is the one spearheading the new EU miltary along with France and Russia, and personally I think the WWII sanctions should be lifted, it's been over 50 years already, live and let live.

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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 10th May 2003 13:47
You are completely missing the point. Fair enough, there is no real point in having the sanctions any more, but there is no point in building weapons either. Who is going to attack us? Aliens? Mutant Spiders? Robots? We don't need weapons.

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sicjoshsic
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Posted: 10th May 2003 20:10
actually, less americans have been killed because they keep on killing the british

i don't hate americans, but it is true that they keep on killing us, and the UK army are the best in the world, its just that america's army have more money and better equipment

Arrow
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Posted: 10th May 2003 20:21
We have armies so as not to feel insucure about the size of our dicks, simple as that.

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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 10th May 2003 23:36
Speaking of the EU, how long is it before that becomes the USE? The UK(or at least Scotland) needs to get out of this potential economic disaster before it's too late.

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the architect
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:15
Can I just say that Im 21 and have been for twelve years!

The fact is we start on the Yanks when we slagged off their armed forces etc which made elektro fingers come out with his hateful spout which made me cry out a list of well informed, accurate and justifiable hateful spout etc etc

Lets knock it off. Yesterday the Iraqis found 15000 dead, murdered by the state. There are plenty of tales of torture and murder all over Iraq and age does not seem to be limit.

Wilst I have very mixed feelings about the civilian casualties that we caused I can also see that sitting with our thumbs up our backsides may in the long run have cuased far more casualties.

At least now the yanks can start to understand what the BA went through in Ireland, that so-called OPPRESSED people do not tell the truth and use every dirty trick they can come up to make the occupiers cause civilian deaths.

And thanx to Tony Blair supporting Washington they may now actually stop supporting the IRA because as everybody now knows - Terrorism is not nice.

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Posted: 16th May 2003 01:36
The fact is, so many things, though from one point of view they may seem completely evil, can be justified in one way or another. The IRA justifies their actions by their belief - Northern Ireland by right should be part of The Republic of Ireland. England has no right to rule it etc etc.
I can't say I entirely disagree with that belief and I, though from a protestant family, think the world would be a better place if we were all catholics and the protestant sect had never existed. However, terrorism was never going to get anyone anywhere and there is no way the IRA's actions can be properly justified.

As for Tony Blair, he just wants to go down in history for something, he doesn't care what.

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Killer Sponge
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Posted: 16th May 2003 13:11 Edited at: 16th May 2003 13:12
[Edit]..

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the architect
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Posted: 16th May 2003 13:34
NI would become part of the republic except that the majority want to remain British. Why should they be ruled by the decision of a bunch of fanatical maniacs who want otherwise.

the architect
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Posted: 16th May 2003 13:36
witchbomber

The reason there are far less wars now than in the past is because of atomic weopons, unfortunatly.

Redmotion
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Posted: 16th May 2003 17:31
This is definitely the best thread in the whole forum. My, how many myths we have already regarding our recent past. 50 years of history filled chock-a-block with propaganda and misinformation!!

America do provide millions of dollars of aid, they also invade countries to gain control of what remaining fossil fuel reserves that are remaining. And have killed thousands doing it. This is why these terrorists are angry. Their plight in the face of overwhelming power has been ignored, their protests repressed and forgotten. The respect for their lands and ways of life withdrawn. Together the western governments contrive to persuade their own people that they are doing it for the greater good. Alas, if any good comes of it, it is by coincidence and not direct intention.

Less wars because of nuclear weapons? No, I don't think so. For us, yes. But for the world? There have been more wars *recorded* in the last century (mostly civil or between neighbouring countries) than at any other period in history.

The most evil regieme in history? The nazis? I can think of a number of despots in the last 50 years have come very close. Most of them funded or coaxed by western policies, to destabilize and weaken poor countries denied technology to farm their countries natural resources, so that when the time comes, we can move in and secure the loot.(usually Oil/Coal/Gas)

Alas, we can all complain about these policies and their enemies: the "evil" (snigger - evil? There is no such thing - read some philosophy and learn to have independent thought and perception regarding society) terrorists. (We coined the phrase "war on terror", it also means: "we(the US) can go to war with anyone and everyone and we have the right", and "as we absorb more of the worlds wealth, we must protect it and hoarde it from those that might take it or threaten our systems of obtaining that wealth" (eg: oil, global industry, etc, etc.) The US/West have been waging these passive "wars" (or is that passive-'terrorism'?!) against the rest of the world for decades.

The other side is that, without these secret policies, our countries would not be as safe or as powerful as they are now. Our standards of living, healthcare, etc. What can you do? They would be foolish to reliquish their power wouldn't they? If the wealth of the world was shared with everyone, everyone would be starving and miserable and none of luxuries we have today would never have been developed let alone enjoyed. And you only have to look at all the great civilisations in history to see that they all collapsed for some reason, usually economic/strategic. They let their guard down and another civilisation stepped up behind them and cut their throats....or they relied far too heavily on one way of life.

Just think of the consequences of a catastrophic economic collapse in the US on it's people and the rest of the world? (Due to a sudden disappearence of oil and lack of replacements - yes there are replacements developed - but the oil companies own half the patents so we won't see those for years.) The US wouldn't be a nice place to have a civil war nowadays...not with all those nuclear bombs knocking around....

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Arrow
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Posted: 17th May 2003 03:21
Damn, and I thought this thread had died, oh well.

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the architect
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Posted: 17th May 2003 03:22
This fact about more wars fought in the twentieth century than any other? Where is this from? How many colonial wars did Britain have? How many wars did the Zulus have before challenged by the British? What of other tribal conflicts you never here about? How many Indians and state troops died in America? There are countless from the past which tend not to be recorded as wars, more as fueds or local conflicts! The fact is now mankind can quickly end one war and begin another. Old scores not settled can easily be rekindled.

In the past upto 1850's maybe, Battles could often result with destruction of an opponants leadership, following, wealth(till quite recently a leader took his treasury on campaign) etc. Nowadays wars are fought at the destance with some form of transport close by. Communication is more advanced so leaders can hide and evade their enemies because they need not go any where near there opponants. Where at one time war often ended with a victor and a loser,the loser dead or captured, conflict now ends with a victor and a fugitive.

Quick victories are not always the best ones. Where is Saddam Hussain? Where is Osami Bin Laden? And now equiped with the standards of battlefeild technology individuals can cause casualties out of proportion to their numbers. Where as at one time you still needed something of an army to wage guerrilla war effectivly nawadays you need less. Explosives, sniper rifles and terrorism. In the case of America such individuals are a nuisance more than a threat but to other ' little ' nations a new war erupts.

You cant blame terrorists on governments either. Take this great debate about oil and the gulf war. If, in 1991, Saddam Hussein had controlled middle east oil, living costs would go up. many anti war protesters said it is the only reason for war against Iraq. My argument is if you were so against it don't reap the benefits! Donate some of your wages to charity as a gesture of defiance every pay day, about 5% is reasonable. That way the blood of Iraqi's is not on your conscience.

Your standards of living is based on capitalist policy. Dont believe me? Ask a Russian what his standard of living was in the USSR in the 1980's.

In the may day riots we see people in clothes, wearing watches, carrying bags, playing music on stereos! All these were made by people finding a way to make money. These computers were made by capitalists and people wanting to make money. Nothing I have mentioned is a result of the generous nature of the makers. Everything we have is about money and standards of living. Even medicines are made with profits in mind.

Seriously, if you dont like US and British politics and all the capitalist bullshit that goes with it,and are really against it, then go to Iran, China, N Korea or anywhere you think is morally superior to us. The truth is everything you own is the product of greed and while you cant live without it the big industries and the government will always win. They care about money and not what you think!

As for preserving culture, what culture did the yanks actually destroy, when protecting Saudi Arabia's oil feilds from Saddam Hussein? What culture was destroyed when the people of Kuwait were liberated? The American presence was the reason Mr. Bin Laden hates them so much. The anti - American lobby keeps bleating on about propaganda. Saddam Husseins propaganda in the middle east was far more bollocks than ours. Remember comical ali The fact is many arabs are stunned by the anti-Saddam mood in Iraq. The Iraqis hate Americans and Brits but they equally hate Saddam Hussein.

And wilst I understood why some of the anti-war lobby was against the conflict what the f**k was Tony Benn, Goerge Galloway and the Popes envoy doing sucking up to a mass murderer like Saddam Hussein and kissing his f**king hand! Why didnt plackards say Blair out! Bush out! and Saddam out! We are so f**ked with self critism that we sometimes do not spot evil when we see it.

When we didn't want Hitler coming here British people risked death to rid ourselves of him! We bombed Dutch cities to rid them of Germans and they UNDERSTOOD why! The French resented us for it. See later rant! Norwegians risked death to give us good intelligence! Poles escaped from Poland to train and fight in Britain!
Russians threw themselves on Tanks to rid their lands of the German and a peasant would starve his own family to ensure not one German soldier got fed by his crops! All over the world we see stories of desperate people bravely attempting to rid themselves of bastards like Hussein! Yet no one on this forum gave the Iraqi people any credit that they were strong and brave enough to make it through one more war if only they could get them rid of that Fat F**k and his BATH party!

One thing GW 2 taught me was just what a great, passionate and funny people the Iraqis can be and now I am convinced all Arabs are probably like them. Its a shame their freedom was won this way. If the UN had been stronger Saddam may well of left Iraq and gone into exile. The anti-war lobby made sure that did not happen.

the architect
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Posted: 17th May 2003 03:26
Jasonia,

You used the magic words 'recorded' wars. Also all these little nations do not have Abobmbs.

the architect
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Posted: 17th May 2003 03:27
Beware the Abobmbs!!!

the architect
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Posted: 17th May 2003 03:32
Sorry Jasonia,

Before my previouse rant I only read half of your post, made a min series and then realised you were pretty much in line with what I had said.

As a result I have back pain, wasted electricity thus spiralling us towards global disaster, lost some time to sleep etc all just to repeat what you had pretty much more breifiluller. Except for the Abombs bit.

Arrow
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Posted: 17th May 2003 15:55
Ya know, it really pisses me off whenever someone sayes something like "If you don't like it move to Iraq", or some other equally bad place. Are you so foolish to bealieve that US and Britain are the only First World countries out there? What about France, Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Spain, South Korea, Japan, Austrailia, or countless other countries that are not trying to start wars.

And if anyone of you mensions some crap about France I'll stuff a ton of "freedom fries" up your ass. Hell, how many of you accully met a French man/women?

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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 17th May 2003 21:42
architect: I can't be bothered reading your big long speech fully but I just have to say: There is absolutely no way Saddam Hussein would have gone into exile. He would rather be dead than powerless.

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th May 2003 00:19
I cannot believe that this topic is still going, shouldn't it have at least been moved away from this forum by now?

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the architect
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Posted: 18th May 2003 01:13
Arrow,

My point is you dont want to live in such places and neither do many of the oppressed. But by all means move to France, s korea, germany or wherever. I don't really care I'm just saying if you dont like the perks then leave.

As for South Korea it would not be a democracy if it wasn't for America and the United nations. Neither would France, Germany, Japan or Australia. I really suggest you study history because all these countries were freed partly due to the contribution of Britain, America and Russia and their democracy totally exists because of the Yanks.

As for Spain it did support the coalition as did Italy. The only reason France and Russia did not was because they had substantial investment in Iraq thanks to Mr. Hussein.

Redmotion
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Posted: 18th May 2003 01:14
Yep it should move, shouldn't it?!

Everyone, read The New Rulers of the World by John Pilger.

The US abandoned the shiite's uprising post-Gulf war and as a consequence this week around 3000 bodies (of those who tried to beat down Hussein) were discovered. By the time we invaded, our sanctions had already caused (arguably, they were helped along happily by Hussien, but we didn't change them over the course of the 10 years, so we have to take a proportion of the blame) the deaths of a least a million muslims. (Hmm, resulting in a depleted army ripe to be beaten in a fasttrack war? Anyone? In we swan and yippee!, let's get that OIL!).

Aparently, they won't clean up the depleted uranium dust from the shells that were fired. Since the gulf war (when they were first used) the cancer rates have gone sky-high. God knows what it will be like now... And the UN refused many drug treatments to the people of Iraq because they could be turned into bombs.
Just think, if we get upset when 20 people die in a rail disaster. How do think these people feel? I think they might be a little upset... Terrorism is utterly abominable but there is such a thing as spoiling for a rumble and that is exactly what we have done and now continue to do.

What good would moving to china do? How, from there, would those that disagree with our home/foriegn policies seek to change them? Shall we all line up as one big happy patriotic/united country?! Smirk! I think I'll vote for the raving loony candidate at the next election! :-s

Witchbomber: you're right. Hussein loved the way he constantly manipulated the world around him. His influence covered the entire globe in the end. That was all he was there for... Even now, he still keeps people awake at night, I bet he's loving it. Sick f****r.

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Arrow
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Posted: 18th May 2003 01:42
Quote: "As for South Korea it would not be a democracy if it wasn't for America and the United nations. Neither would France, Germany, Japan or Australia. I really suggest you study history because all these countries were freed partly due to the contribution of Britain, America and Russia and their democracy totally exists because of the Yanks."


Don't start the "if we we didn't help you" crap again, I can count far more time when a country's action were harmful than you can count the the same country's action that were benificial.

One last point here, I live in the USA. It's my first amdendment right to voice my opinion (despite the government attemps to do away with the Bill of Rights). If I stop complaining about all the bad parts of this country then I'll move, because then I'll have stopped being an American. Isn't that what this country's suppost to be about? I'm a patiot because I voice me opinion, if you don't like, tough. By telling me to move out of this country only shows ignorance, that is the one thing I hate most.

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Arrow
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Posted: 18th May 2003 01:58
Oh yeah, just one question. How did either the US or the UN help free Australia? Also the UN wasn't even around when France, Germany or Japan were "not free". Japan hasn't even opressed it's own people since the Tokugawan Shogunate. Also considering that the empirer is still in charge it's not a democrocy, it just industralized.

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the architect
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Posted: 20th May 2003 10:58
Arrow,

I cocked up the composition. If you continue to read I was refering to the three major allies of WW2 I had just worded badly.

As for South Korea it would not be a democracy if it wasn't for America and the United nations. Neither would France, Germany, Japan or Australia. I really suggest you study history because all these countries were freed partly due to the contribution of Britain, America and Russia and their democracy totally exists because of the Yanks.


As for Australia, who had contributed her best to the British Army previously and her manpower depleted( Aussie has a small population), found herself seriously under threat from Japan in 42. It was a big help that America got involved.

All I am saying Arrow is that if you truly want to live by your principles it is difficult because we benefit alot from capitalism and war. Free speech, living comforts beyond belief, relative safety are many things we have because brave people have fought and died for it.

The only way to do this if leave all the democracies and live with the victims of these policies. Its nothing to do with not wanting you to express an opinion. I look forward to all the responces to the posts on this forum. I try to have a fair outlook on every thing and not jump the onto any bandwagon.

I hate WAR MONGERS but just as equally hate PACIFISTS.

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Posted: 20th May 2003 17:24
Last time I checked, my First Adendment right to free speech wasn't threatend since the war of 1812. All wars America have been in have not been defencive. America never had trench warfare, it was never invaded by Nazis, it never delt with Viet-con. In fact the only time America was attack in a war in the last 150 years was Pearl Harbor, and that bearly lasted more than 3 hours.

What's wrong with pacifists, Gandi was one, so was Budda.

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Posted: 20th May 2003 21:43
Well said. Gandhi and Buddha were pacifists. It is only a certain kind of pacifist that is bad. It is the hypocrites who I hate. The ones who condemn Saddam for torturing his people and condemn the coalition for condemning Saddam, they are the ones I hate.

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the architect
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Posted: 20th May 2003 23:48
I dont think the war of 1812 was about threatening your liberties. I think it started because the royal navy objected to american ships sheltering British navy deserters and then the American ships objected to being search by the royal navy.

As a yank, arrow, I would have thought that you would appreciate outside help since the French gave the rebels some help during the War of Independance where people died for freedom.

The reason I dislike pacifism is because it is extremist as much as nazism, fundalmentalism and war mongers. Wilst it means well it can do more harm than good. I just think that to avoid war you need to read between the lines, have an open mind and study all the options. Pacifism immediatly removes the military option which sometimes can be the answer to a peace. Remember that not everyone remains a pacifist even if you are and nuetrality does not always protect you.

the architect
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Posted: 20th May 2003 23:54
And you mentioned Switzerland which seems a wonderland of peace and harmony, during the war swiss witnesses have seen trainloads of Jews on their way to the extermination camp using Swiss stations.

Also there are massive investments by jews before the war which have disapeared and being denied to the jewish descendants.

the architect
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Posted: 21st May 2003 00:07
As for Ghandi he could afford to be a pacifist.

The nazi's and Communists would have eaten him for breakfast. Could you imagine him telling Hitler he wants India for Indians!

India had to be given up and would have been without Ghandi's interference since fighting the war had financially crippled the Empire.

the architect
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Posted: 21st May 2003 00:48
Witchbomber
are the pacifists who condemn the coalition but dont condemn Saddam Hussein alright?

Arrow
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Posted: 21st May 2003 01:46
A) I never said anything bad about France, in fact a made a rather mean comment to those that do: "And if anyone of you mensions some crap about France I'll stuff a ton of "freedom fries" up your ass."

B) I fail to see the problem pasifisim. So one person doesn't want to take the life another, what in the hell is wrong with that? "The reason I dislike pacifism is because it is extremist as much as nazism, fundalmentalism and war mongers. Wilst it means well it can do more harm than good." No offence but that's the stupidest statement this thread has seen. Pasifists are not a collective body, nor do they seek power. All we want is a end to voilence, war will only cause more death. Events are turning out just as I've predicted in the midle east, more violence and more US hatred. Pasifism, even in limited application, is the only way we're gonna get any peace. It either that abolish western Religon. I'm for that to, I'm starting on essay to see how many reasons I can find to get rid of Christainity, Muslim, and Jewdism. I'm on number 9.

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actarus
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Posted: 21st May 2003 01:51
-, I'm starting on essay to see how many reasons I can find to get rid of Christainity, Muslim, and Jewdism. I'm on number 9

Isn't that a bit...um well extremist?

'Abolish' means telling people 'not to'...Which is the same as a dictature ripping the basic rights every human has.

It's not very spiritual.

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Ian T
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Posted: 21st May 2003 03:17
This is the most ridiculous and offtopic post I've ever seen. And before you say 'I'm not helping anything'-- hell, I'm not trying to. I hope this gets locked.

Might as well dish my opinion in here. Bush is doing an amazing job. Unlike Vietnam, he isn't backing down because the US' 'allies' turned around and proved to be corrupt and/or cowardly behind us. He's removing a dangerous, cruel person from his seat of power and liberating a huge amount of people who would have lived their lives under an evil ruler otherwise. This isn't about world domination, this isn't about oil. In my opinion, the large amount of anti-war activity in this thread is nothing better than blatently supporting terrorism and the deaths of thousands of people. Have a nice day.

--Mouse

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Posted: 21st May 2003 04:53
TheOldOne must've been the best guy ever :
Only one post from him to this forum, and look at all the responds!

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Posted: 21st May 2003 07:16
LOL...... this is so funny, but hey, the architect is right in what he says dontyaknow.

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Posted: 21st May 2003 08:41
Quote: "Isn't that a bit...um well extremist?

'Abolish' means telling people 'not to'...Which is the same as a dictature ripping the basic rights every human has.

It's not very spiritual."


I'm not trying destory all religon, I got nothing against Pagan, Lakota, or Budists. I just want to get rid of the number one source of pain and suffering, that which is "Mono-Dues" religons of the Middle East. These three Religons have causes the most death and suffering in Earth's history, directly and indirectly. Hell why do you think we're over there in the first place. I seam to recall discussing this early on in this thread, so I won't repeat myself. Accully, this essay is more for fun than anthing else. It sort of my hobbie is piss off "holier than thou" Christains, plus it can spark some really good debates.

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Posted: 21st May 2003 16:08
Quote: "are the pacifists who condemn the coalition but dont condemn Saddam Hussein alright?
"

The answer to that has to be yes, apart from the obvious point that no-one could possibly not condemn Saddam, considering the atrocities he has committed, and to his own people.

Arrow: The architect is right in what he says. If you have the option of either:

- fighting a war against extremists like nazis
- refusing to fight the extremists


and you don't fight them then you end up with the extremists completely wiping you out and ruling the world, which in the end causes a hell of a lot more violence.


Quote: "He's removing a dangerous, cruel person from his seat of power and liberating a huge amount of people who would have lived their lives under an evil ruler otherwise. This isn't about world domination, this isn't about oil."

The first sentence, well said. The second sentence I have to disagree with. The main reasons the US went to war on Iraq is oil and control. While good did come of it, the US mainly wanted to take Iraqi oil and provide a base for control over the middle east. The fact they liberated a huge amount of people prevents Bush from ending up in a trial for War Crimes, but that's not why he went to war.

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Arrow
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Posted: 21st May 2003 19:03
Very true, if the US was over there solely for the best interest of the country they would have been guarding the museum and not thew oil fields.

"and you don't fight them then you end up with the extremists completely wiping you out and ruling the world, which in the end causes a hell of a lot more violence."
You can't kill everyone. What do you think those extermists would do if the whole country just stopped working and did a little non-violent protest? I'm not saying don't fight at all, only fight for worthy causes that finbd you, don't go out looking for a fight.

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 23:44
They are not over there for the oil. Over here, we tend to actually care about innocent people in other countries.

I personally think that people who sit around and let other, braver people die in their stead are the worst type of terrorist.

--Mouse

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Posted: 23rd May 2003 20:12 Edited at: 23rd May 2003 20:13
Then why were we guarding the oil fields while hoodlums raided the museum and hospitals? Why are we still their instend of letting the UN take over, or just let themselves govern themselves?

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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:14
Dang, I thought it was dead for a moment there.
Arrow. Well said. They should have let the UN deal with it a long tme ago. However, if the whole country held a big non violent protest the extremists would just bomb the protest.

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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:16
If both paths lead to evil, you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.

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Arrow
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Posted: 24th May 2003 20:14
I reject the idea of Good and Evil, if there is only two pathes that are foul, I find another one.

Extreamists are already bombing people, how would apposing war change that.

How about a deal, after this you say something, then while stating my own point I'll kinda agree, then we let this die.

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Posted: 24th May 2003 22:57
The world is so ****ed up it doesn't matter what we do things are always going to seem evil. Going to war on Iraq was a bad thing, it was a coincidence that good came of it. Fair enough, there were more than two paths. They could have let the UN deal with it and they could have stopped Saddam without any wars, but that way America wouldn't have got their oil, which is the reason they went to war.

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Arrow
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Posted: 25th May 2003 08:28
I agree completely, it's all a persective thing. I beleave the saying "Try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no one" holds true here. The best we can do is uphold our own personal morals and code of ethics to the best of our abilities.

(Thats's a pretty decent ending, let's try to keep it as one. Let this thread die in peace.)

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the architect
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Posted: 25th May 2003 14:38
Arrow if you want the forum dropped stop posting.

In what way would the UN have stopped Saddam Hussein? They've been trying to do it for ten years! When the first Gulf War ended everybody expected him to be toppled. Instead he's been fine and the Iraqi people suffered because of the sanctions which are the so-called OTHER WAY that we hear about.

So pacifism is not an extremist point of view.
Heres a little list of not so extremist actions in the aid of pacifism.


Setting fire to oneself in protest(vietnam).

Millions campaigning across the globe and giving a very oppresive regime a thread of hope that he can politically win and stay in power.

The pope sending an envoy to shake hands with Saddam Hussein in the aide of peace.

Tony Benn making a sickening A - licking interview with Saddam Hussein.

Giving away half a country for the sake of peace to a dictatorship(WW2).


For the sake of peace the pacifists wanted to leave the Iraqi's to their fate. They promoted the image of a corrupt, greedy dictator with no compassion or sense of guilt. For this reason it lost all credibilty of having any thought process at all. We would have pacifist terrorists if it wasn't for the fact that it contrary to its viewpoint. I'm not saying its a bad viewpoint just extreme.


The real point is that if a democracy developes in the middle east other Arab nations will see the benefits. They will recieve Iraqi TV and radio broadcasts. Iraqi people will promote the benefits to their neighbours. They will find that they can be muslims and still live in a democratic country with their own traditions and culture.


Just like the Russians did in the late 80's when Satalite TV from Europe became available. It seems once a people gets its voice its hard to shut them up. Look at the Russians - 60years of oppression, one year of free speech and then a military coup fall flat on its backside because the people resisted it.

The world will never be perfect but if the worldlearns to drop borders and takes responsibility for the rights of all people then atleast we may reduce terrorism. Remember that alot of ill feeling towards America actually stems from its support of Isreal who do illegally occupy arabic lands.

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