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Dark GDK / Dark Game SDK and .NET

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 12th Jun 2006 17:39
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you don't - you'd know if you did

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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 12th Jun 2006 17:57
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Quote: "No, purely because I haven't got a 64bit processor."


ok, but will there be a demo version? That way I can be sure it works before ordering it.

~Pulsar Coder
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APEXnow
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Posted: 12th Jun 2006 17:58
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There will be demo samples that can be run, but the kit and code samples will not be available until I've had the thumbs up from TGC.

Paul.


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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 12th Jun 2006 18:07
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Well, just be aware that in order to run on Win x64 the dll/apps or whatever it uses MDX the code must be compiled for x86 platforms (it can be configured in the solution properties).

Since there is no 64-bit MDX version yet, this is the only workaround so far.

~Pulsar Coder
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neiklot96
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 21:30
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I just took a couple classes on c# so I hope I can get this before I forget everything I learned.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 18th Jun 2006 02:52
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neiklot96, download the express versions from Microsoft, you can keep up the experimentation until the product is released.

Paul.


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neiklot96
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 20:41
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I downloaded it and tried to get that direct x rocket commander tutorial to work... talk about complex... It was 90% creating safety net error messages in case anything breaks and 10% of actual game engine programming. Half of the tutorial was geared towards getting me to buy the non express version because the cool stuff in the tutorial wouldn't work in the express version. Between Virtools 50 page tutorial on how to create your own game engine not working, Direct x SDK 10 hour video series on how to create your own game engine that didn't work, Dark Game SDK not coming with any documentation, BV Indie not really allowing you to import FBX although they advertise that they can and the 3impact introductory walkthrough not working... I just pulled out all my hair last friday and went and bought Sid Meyers Pirates and played it for 36 hours straight without sleep. Imagine how productive I could have been if I actually found a game engine editor that didn't give me the run around. All I want is my own holodeck. Is that so much to ask?
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 23:26
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lol @ neik... FPSC sounds like it may be the answer to your bad hair pulling days...

seriously though... that's the state of game development nowadays... ads, online docs, and plenty of complexity...

forget creating your own game engine... unless you wanna take the time to learn the ins and outs of dx, forget that route...

virtools is cool... but eventually you are gonna wind up paying around $2500 for the real version of it... and although it aint the dx SDK, it aint as simple as some people would have you believe...

download vb.net express... look through some of the ms tuts... play with a few of the free game engines and renderers out there... and by that time the SDk and Apex's wrapper should be coming around the bend...

otherwise, fpsc, db or dbpro will insulate you fromt he cruel, hard, 3d game development world out there

good luck...

--Mike
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 23:58
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neiklot96: you're going way off the mark here. your post has nothing to do with the dgsdk.NET which is not released yet.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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roujesky
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 00:09
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Went camping for a week, and came back to find no .net version?

ApexNow:
Can you post some simple example code showing how to get the window to come up? Preferably in C#, but VB.Net will do....
Also, would we be able to have the standard Windows menu bar across the top (so it looks like a standard windows app)?

thanx
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 01:48 Edited at: 20th Jun 2006 01:54
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DB creates the main runtime window not the .net code like you would a form, so theres no direct way of attaching a main menu to that window. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm saying its not as easy as hooking a MainMenu object to a winforms form.

Can you create your own secondary forms with all and any of the .Net goodies? oh yes. yes you can - woohoo

All of the stuff that you would need third party dlls for in dbp are not necessary in this system. Everyday things like dialogs, message boxes, data entry forms, helper applets and utilities can be added to the dbp (dgsdk) runtime. I think this will catapult dbp into a whole new serious light with app developers, as well as game developers. As an app developer I have wished many times I had access to easy graphical stuff in my apps... now I do. And also the reverse is great - no more mucking about with inferior development platforms to create games. Do it all in visual studio (03 or 05)

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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neiklot96
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 02:17
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Thanks for the encouragement Mike. I'll try FPS. Do you if it's possible and or how easy it is to import 3ds max content into fps? I know this is probably a question for a different thread but it seems all the good threads have been cancelled due to lack of activity... they just leave you hangin and I am sick and tired of hangin and trying to learn this stuff without the support of a community.

You are correct CattleRustler. I am way off the mark. Thanks for letting me vent my frustrations. I haven't come up for air for 3 years. I have had my head burried in so much meaningless code for so many differnet game engines for so long that I have forgotten what the mark was. Oh yes... waiting for the next revision of this game engine to come out and hoping that it will finally save me... so that I can finally export FBX versions of Daz3d characters from daz studio directly into a game engine without having to learn 3ds max or c#. Or if that's not a foreseable reality... exporting daz characters to 3ds max and applying a rudimentary multires modifier to them and using kaldera to generate some nice normalized bump maps to keep the high res illusion while reducing the poly count so that my graphics card can handle a real time interactive simulation environment while utilizing the hightened efficiency of c#, the .net framework and dark game dsk with an actual video tutorial from and expert in the field showing me how to export skinned bipeds from 3ds max into a dark game sdk gaming environment. I also want world peace and Dana Scully to be my physician.
Russ
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 01:54 Edited at: 21st Jun 2006 01:55
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Quote: "finally export FBX versions of Daz3d characters from daz studio directly into a game engine"


Last I looked, the Victoria 3.0 reduced resolution model clocked above 20k triangles, while the full Victoria 3.0 model was, if I remember, 3 or 4 times that.

So, really, getting these models into a realtime engine, whatever the engine may be, is probably not going to produce the framerates you want...

And I still don't know what people see in Scully...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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APEXnow
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 06:01 Edited at: 21st Jun 2006 06:02
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The state of play so far is that both Lee and Mike appear to be happy with what I've got so far, bar a few changes to documentation and the necessity for more samples.

Also, the product will be renamed in due course to DGDK.NET because the C++ version will also follow suit. It stands to reason though, that when the product comes to fruition, this may again change to something that is acceptable by TGC.

As for progress, well, things are running along nicely at the moment. My targets are to add further samples to the toolkit, to demonstrate capability, but to be honest, this boils down to the same kind of samples that already exist in the C++ version of the DGDK.

To improve this outlook, myself and CattleRustler are working on a Retro remake of the Asteroids clone which will fully mimick the original vector graphics version we all love and know! The point of this exercise is that it will fully demonstrate the use of the toolkit under VB.NET, by taking full advantage of the OOP features now available in VB.NET. From Asset Loading, management, spawning, freeing etc. With some added XML to boot.

So, as far as the DGDK.NET toolkit is concerned, the bulk of this is now complete. Some documentation changes will be necessary because I have not documented the actual use of each function, merely documented their syntax and use. Lets be honest, there are hundreds of functions!!

So, it will boil down to example source code examination, and imagination that will eventually make this, a kick ass product!!

Paul.


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Zeal
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 09:58
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Thanks for the update, keep up the good work!

However, I have to admit, im starting to get a bit discouraged about the whole u6 patch thing. You seem to be in regular contact with Mike and Lee, can you squeeze any info from them? It just doesnt seem like they are aware of how low morale is around here (in regards to the u6 patch).

I hope we get an update on that front very soon

All you need is zeal
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 10:22
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Quote: "I just took a couple classes on c# so I hope I can get this before I forget everything I learned."


So would that mean the new DGSDK update will run on C# or have I taken a misinterpretation?

I am sparticus and so is my wife
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monotonic
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 11:26
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Quote: "So would that mean the new DGSDK update will run on C# or have I taken a misinterpretation?
"


It will run under any .NET based language.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 15:19 Edited at: 21st Jun 2006 15:20
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there is currently one dgdk, and it runs under c++ - this will not change. there is also this new item that apex is working on which is the dgdk but for .NET platforms. This dgdk (dgdk.net) is what we are discussing in this thread and it will run under both C# and VB.NET, and eventually in both Visual Studio 2003 and 2005. Currently we are building and testing in studio 03.

Apex, regarding the commands and help files: Surely you are not expected to rewrite all of the command descriptions, are you? I mean aside from the callable names the commands are essentially identical to those in the c++ dgdk, couldn't you just use the existing text, then make any adjustments for the commands we had to append names to due to the function overload issues?

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 16:25
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@CattleRustler, as far as command descriptions go, I was not planning to do these otherwise it'd take a hell of a long time to get the thing finished, so unless I can rip them from the DGDK help file or something, it'll be a nightmare lol.

Paul.


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neiklot96
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 19:25
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Does Dark SDK support dual core processing? What kind of frame rate do you think I could get with software rendering Victoria 3 on a 3.8 ghz dual core dual processor in dark game sdk? You can use the multires modifier in 3ds max to knock the res down to whatever you want... as long as you normalize map the high res geometry before you knock it down you can still get pretty decent sid-meyers-pirates-level-of-quality game characters at around 15k of polys.
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monotonic
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 12:34
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@CR

Managed C++ too, but its kind of pointless I have never seen the point for managed C++.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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scooby bloke
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 13:36
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Quote: "Does Dark SDK support dual core processing?"


It's been ages since I've been able to use the sdk (I've moved up to vc2005 because of work requirements and so can't use it any more), but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. You can't use multi-threaded stuff at all because the library is compiled single-threaded.
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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 13:49
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Does the SDK work with v2 of .NET Framework? If not, ETA on a version that will do?

~Pulsar Coder
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 15:04
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Quote: "Does the SDK work with v2 of .NET Framework?"

Yes, we have successfully run out of vs2005 w/framework 2 - there is a slight issue/difference with how com-interop is handled in 1.1 vs 2.0 and it will require a slightly modified/compiled version of the dgdk.net, but yes, it will run in vs05/2.0. Currently the release awaiting approval is for vs03/1.1. I am fairly certain that once that hits the streets it will be a short time until we see the 2.0 compatible version. Apex could probably give a more definitive answer here though.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 16:25
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Have you decided how much you want to relieve us of our money ?

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 19:20
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Quote: "Have you decided how much you want to relieve us of our money ?"


Although I cannot comment on this personally, because at the end of the day, the DGDK core is still a TGC product, but the assumption is that the .NET version will go for approximately the same price range. FOr existing users, they may get a reduced purchase price etc. I really do not know until TGC decide how they want to play this out.

Quote: "Does the SDK work with v2 of .NET Framework? If not, ETA on a version that will do?"


CattleRustler is right in what he's saying, the interop behaviour from 1.1 to 2.0 is very slight, which did flag a couple of little things when myself and CattleRustler were testing. But generally speaking, the kit performed ok on both platforms.

Quote: "Does Dark SDK support dual core processing?"


The answer to that is probably no, due to the threading model required for dual processing.

Paul.


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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 23:16
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Which are the requirements to use DGSDK? External dlls, version of .Net framework, etc.

~Pulsar Coder
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Mopi
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Hi,
I bought the SDK last week, and use VISUAL C++ EXPRESS. I didn't know that it was incompatible (I found no warning in the site). Will I have to buy the new SDK .NET ? (sorry, the answer is maybe in the forum but I did not read it entirely)
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2006 01:38
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Quote: "the assumption is that the .NET version will go for approximately the same price range"


Yikes.

Quote: "Or existing users, they may get a reduced purchase price"


I dearly hope so...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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APEXnow
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Posted: 24th Jun 2006 01:54
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I'm sorry that I cannot give you more information, but I'm not going to make assumptions on pricing until it's settled with TGC.

Anyway, here are a couple of shots of something myself and CattleRustler are working on...





All in VB.net using the toolkit

Paul.


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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 24th Jun 2006 02:10
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Very nice!

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 24th Jun 2006 21:34
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Quote: "I bought the SDK last week, and use VISUAL C++ EXPRESS. I didn't know that it was incompatible (I found no warning in the site)."


From the minimum sys requirements posted:

Quote: "Locally installed copy of Microsoft Visual C++ 6 (SP5+) or Microsoft Visual C++ .NET 2003"


I see no mention of any Express versions there.

In any case TGC will probably do a pretty good price on the upgrading.

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Mopi
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 17:38
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Thank you for your answers,
I thought that if it was OK with .NET 2003, it would be OK with Visual C++ 2005 Express. I agree that there is no mention of any Express versions, but a warning would have been a good idea for a newbee like me

regards,
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APEXnow
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 22:48
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Folks,

Mike, Lee and Rick are looking at the current state of the toolkit, so things are moving along.

Now, although I will not do it for this current version of the .NET toolkit, but I will for the next. To encapsulate the Object, Image, Bitmap, Audio and Music interfaces into actual Classes that are exposed to .NET languages. I will also expose a singleton based Assets and Active class. The concept here is that it removes the necessity to manage media IDs when handling objects, images etc.

Basically, creating a CDBObject class instance will automatically manage the creation and cloning of objects for you. Also, if objects are added to the CAssets singleton so that finding and cloning of objects can be done very quickly. All of this can be easily implemented in VB.net and C#.net using the native class capability, but I think that extra performance gains can be achieved if these classes are donw in unmanaged code, and exposed directly to the .NET framework via Interop. Definately something I'm considering as additions to future versions of the DGDK.NET toolkit.

Cheers.

Paul.


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monotonic
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 22:52
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Quote: "Mike, Lee and Rick are looking at the current state of the toolkit, so things are moving along."




I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 02:35
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heh

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Gervais
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 15:28
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Paul,

This new product is very interesting but if I start using the DGDK.NET that reflect the same functionality then the one in the standard GDK with the ID and you change the way it work this will come has extra time for me to get in sink with the new version that you publish.

So I hope that if you do the change you did propose it will be has an added functionality on top of the available functionality so that if we start using the ID we can still us it and if we want the other functionality then we us it.

Thanks for the news about TGC looking at the DGDK I am looking forward to to see some interesting news in the next letter about the DGDK.
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APEXnow
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Oh yeah, absolutely! No, my ideas provided above are purely additional features. The original ID based interface will remain intact.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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If I knew what you were talking about, I would probably be pleased too

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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Miguel Melo
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Quote: "This new product is very interesting but if I start using the DGDK.NET that reflect the same functionality then the one in the standard GDK with the ID and you change the way it work this will come has extra time for me to get in sink with the new version that you publish.
"


You wha?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 00:20
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he thought what apex is providing was an override of the Object id system in the dgdk, and would force coders to change a lot of code. Its not, its an optional Assets system that pex was talking about. I have seen it in action in Asteroids and its very very good.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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roujesky
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Will the .NET version support Dark Lights, eXtends, Dark Physics, Dark A.I., etc....?
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APEXnow
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I can't comment.


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Zeal
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oooooohhh.. The easy answer for that would have been 'no'. But 'I cant comment' makes you think they are still talking about it. I would love to have a chance to use the new physics stuff (dont think I could touch pro again).

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CattleRustler
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Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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roujesky
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Quote: "oooooohhh.. The easy answer for that would have been 'no'. But 'I cant comment' makes you think they are still talking about it. I would love to have a chance to use the new physics stuff (dont think I could touch pro again)."


I agree with Everything you just said I just cannot work in basic, I have the SDK, but development on it by TGC is stagnant at best, and I cannot use any of the expansions on it.

I just looked at my "downloads" page and I downloaded the Dark Games SDK Samples on 1st Dec 04. That means I must have bought the SDK somewhere around then. Is it really that long that the SDK is out and we still cannot use any of the expansions?
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monotonic
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@ roujesky & Zeal

The plug-ins that you are talking about are written in c++, and the physics plug-in uses the AGEIA sdk which is accessed through C++ so you can use this directly from dgdk. There are many more free sdk's toolkits etc out there that you can use with dgdk, keep in mind that c++ is what the commercial game development companies use to write their games so there is going to be a lot more stuff out there for C++, and dgdk is only a wrapper for directx.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Yes, but we're talking about C# and VB.net - which makes things a bit harder.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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monotonic
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@ vista a go go

I believe roujesky was talking about the dgdk, and not dgdk.net.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Some of the plug-in will probably be needed, unless you can get access to the pipeline and object data.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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