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Geek Culture / Protest against the war!

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 11:46
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Not Liberty, but rather the Patriot Missile Defence System. It's a very old AA system because the US refuses to send over the more modern equipment, preffering instead to keep their cutting edge equipment stateside. The Patriot was replaced about 15 years a go.

The consequences of this can be felt throughout Kuwait.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Andy
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 13:24
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>You don't overthrow someone that powerful, you get killed for trying as has
>happened for decades.

Most of the uprisings You are refering to were sponsored by iran during the war and performed by Iraqi seperatists, usually Shiite and kurds...

I wonder what would happen if mexican-americans living in New-Mexico started an armed uprising against the US government... How many do You think would die!


>Why is he able to use chemical weapons on his own people and get away with it?

Well actually he didn't, and the US, Britain and even the media are well aware of it.

>How can he invade Kuwait

Because Kuwait were stealing oil from Iraq, and the US gave him the green light!
He didn't realize that Kuwait were promissed protection and some of Iraq oilwells if they suckered Iraq into attacking them.

>or launch missiles into Israel, etc etc.
Yep, that really shows how bad he is!

>The list goes on. He is a dictator through and through.
Except, much of the propaganda against him is not real, and when I keep hearing the same old propaganda that we already know is not true, I am wondering how much of the entire situation we really know about.

Make no mistake there have been countless uprisings in the past against Saddam but they failed. Are you willing to let Saddam build up countless new weapons of mass destruction?

>I think the ONLY way to stop a man like saddam is too use force, come on! what
>if saddam has got weapons of mass-destruction? or developing bio-weapons
>christ! we will all die if he uses them.
>if he finishes developing them and then decides to use them then we would ALL
>say *while choking* "I wish they did something about him years ago".

It is interesting how some people seem to look at Iraq as being populated with silly people, devoid of any normal human capality such as thinking, intelligence and compassion.

>In the past Iraq has asked for the US to take saddam out, now they are going
>to. We have seen on TV the reactions of the Iraqi people and it is a positive
>one. So why should the allied forces not get saddam out?

Sure... Just because You see it on TV is has to be true... remember that nice young woman in 1990, who where crying her way through her account of her experiences in a hospital in Kuwait.... She received standing ovations in the US and it was all a lie...

>Russia obtains most of it's oil from Iraq and has no formal alliance with
>Saudi Arabia.

Why should Russia have any alliance with the country who is responsible for the terrorists in Chechnya?!

>no they can't... why? Because Saddam would just gas the entire region they
>came from again - regardless of who is guilty of the uprise or not.

Just like he did in Halabja... Right!? Except, the people in Halabja died from Iranian Phosgene gas, not Iraqi mustard gas. But hey, as long as it's Saddam Hussein, it doesn't matter if we lie about him... Right! I am just wondering how much are really lies and fabrication.

>There is a time for peaceful resolutions and there is a time for showing that >
>we're not nations to be pissed about with

So it's about national pride more than the iraqi people... Atleast You admit it...

>protesting won't do anything but anger the government, make sure you do
>something that they WILL notice!

In other words, just resign and realize that You live in a democracy which is so perfect, that the 'demos' cannot be allowed to have any influence on policy.

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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 13:32 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2003 13:34
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Andy if your SO convinced HOW HAVE YOU GOT this information?

and why don't you defend Hussein?
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 13:34
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Andy I have friends out there who are fighting so don't you start telling me that they are fighting for absolutely NO REASON at all!!!!!!!
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haggisman
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 13:43
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Quote: ">Why is he able to use chemical weapons on his own people and get away with it?

Well actually he didn't, and the US, Britain and even the media are well aware of it."


They are... Oh wait i get it. EVERYBODY else is lying, and you are the only person who actually knows the truth.

Well with no actual proof like your post, I proclaim you are saddam hussain sitting in a bunker trying to turn public opinion against the war, but only i know the truth...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 15:13
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Not to be funny... but it is quite apparent that the US is no better than Saddam's regieme - there is however a large difference.
People in Iraq ARE afraid to live under his rule, where as the US citizens are mostly brainwashed into thinking that thier government is all good.

As for the weapons and planes for the US, get real - one of the US's most lucrative exports is Military Hardware, Tanks, Guns, Missiles, Planes, etc...
You don't become a supernation simply because of a little gold rush, its the military presence they have - getting sanctions against them will just slow them down a little, which as the ammount of troops they've sent arn't even 10% of what they have currently do you think they'll care?
No they'll just charge the public and those countries who do still trade with them more ... no doubt give special deals to countries which have 'thier' best interests at heart, like Pakistan and North Korea.

look if you think cause the gas used last time was Iranian and not Iraqi makes a difference then you must be crazy ... as Iran is poorer than Iraq, and if someone bought this stuff from them then they'd sell it - they wouldn't care why it was bought or who used it, all they care is they have money for aid.

that aside, the only real way to stop this war - and i know the current conflict can't be called a war, but i'm telling you Bush IS NOT STOPPING AT IRAQ - is to take down the US. Protesting won't do it, if you cut them off from the world it will make everyone else suffer ... because they're just too large. You want this conflict to end, the quickest way is to let it play out - if you never want it to happen again ... then you have to bring the US to its knees, but for that you would need a World War, one which would have the US and UK the countries with the LARGEST military power and technological advances against those who oppose, plus you'd have North Korea seizing the chance they have as well as India & Pakistan flaring up thier conflicts.
Probably on the Nuclear scale...

The States unfortunately are too large to go again without the backing of the UK, especially as the Majority of the UN's troops are British. The other countries wouldn't have the resources, manpower, or technology to touch them.
And thanks to Sept 11th i don't think you'll ever be able to catch them offguard like that again.

Face it... there is NOTHING you can do and unlike the US's previous conflicts, they have the backing of the UK which makes them close to an invicible force against anyone who tries otherwise. And we all know that thier government is only opposed to other nations having Nuclear warheads, however they themselves have a small stock which we ALL know they are not afriad to use!

lastly, i reckon its be pretty cool (if not a lil wierd) if Saddam was on these boards making comments on our lil debate hehee

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 15:46
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if Saddam is on these boards LOL, then Saddam, YOU are a pussy ass, mother****ing, ass****ing, iraqi pussy boy
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 17:14
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Regarding Iraq gassing it's own people all I ask is why? One thing Saddam is deffinately not is stupid - so this was a weapons test? Or a revolution?

I would argue that Saddam felt there was sufficient cause to commit an act of gassing his enemies, otherwise he'd just shoot them, torture them, or beat up their families and as I don't know the truth I can only guess they where rebels and therefor not his own people.

Of course if we're talking attrocities perhaps it is time to look at the only nation in the world to deploy nuclear weapons in anger.

Quote: ""don't you start telling me that they are fighting for absolutely NO REASON at all!!!!!!!""


Your friends are not fighting for no reason. However, they are not fighting for the reasons that we are being told by our governments. I've given my views here already and backed them up, but to stress the point your friends are fighting for an American agenda which has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, nothing to do with humanitarianism, and not a lot to do with Saddam really except that he's convenient.

I don't really give a flying monkey nut about Saddam or his people, the problem is that I do care about my nations armed forces and I feel strongly about them being put in the line of fire to support an agenda which ultimately lead to more international instability and more wars.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 17:25
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aaah - screw it! what's the point?

we are all going to die someday anyway, so who gives a damn!!!!
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 17:33 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2003 17:38
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ok PneumaticDryll, so basically the USA destroyed their own trading towers did they? so they can then blame it on Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the pussy ass bitches!!

I don't CARE what any of you kiddies say, you type complete shite!!! Saddam Hussein is an EVIL piece of crap!! he MUST be killed!!! Osama Bin Laden MUST be detroyed also, ok so it may not SOLVE it straight away, but hopefully it will make the rest of the terrorists think that they will be killed too if they try this crap in the future.

I've had enough of this thread it's annoying me!!! Rich please lock it, it's making me depressed, I have friends out their fighting I don't NEED dick head children saying that their NOT fighting for the reasons THEY were told, damn it!!!

so, my grandad was tortured by the Japanese, then watched is FRIENDS get be-headed for no god damn reason??? so my mother got RAPED for no god damn reason bitch!!! screw you and alot of you pussy ass bitches who don't believe this shite!!!! IT'S REAL PEOPLE, ACCEPT IT!!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 17:58
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Errr?

Last I checked Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein where two very different people, infact - that's pretty much my point.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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haggisman
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 18:00
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Quote: "Of course if we're talking attrocities perhaps it is time to look at the only nation in the world to deploy nuclear weapons in anger."


Well it was a means to end the seconed world war without having to invade the japanese mainland. Which as you well know would have cost many of lives of the armed forces which you seem to hold so dear.

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 18:11
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I am not for war in any case, but if the US and UK backed down now there will be much worse to come.

The terrorist leaders will use it to show that the east is far superior, it will encourage more people to join in attacking the west. Worst of all it will de-stabalise the east even more that it is now, just think all the Iraqi soldiers that surrendered, what happens to their families if saddam is given a break?

Before you go slaggin people off for not caring, think about what the actions people are protesting for will casue.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 18:14
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PneumaticDryll, How do you know that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden are not working together? maybe their NOT, but MOST likely they are!!!!
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 18:25
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PneumaticDryll, if you don't believe that Saddam kills is own people then why the hell are MOST of the country seeking Asylum elsewhere? if it was soooooo great then WHY??? why would they go to soooo much trouble to do so????
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 18:43 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2003 18:45
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It's not that I don't believe he doesn't kill his own people (much like Strawberry Hill eh ) but that I really don't care about the oppression of a very small number of people in a remote part of the world.

Sounds harsh but frankly we've enough domestic issues to resolve before we start worrying about minor attrocities in completely insignificant parts of the world.

There are far worse dictators and criminals on this planet than Hussein, if that wasn't true then the international support to remove him would have been there but it isn't because some of the world powers are not so easily fooled as the blood hungry Anglo-Yank consumer.

The accusations against Hussein are being seriously trumped up and still no hard evidence has emerged for a single coalition propaganda claim since this whole thing started 7 months ago.

As for his links with Bin Laden, what links? Yes some Al-Qeeda entered his counry and set up an 'installation' in the South. This was not a government controlled 'installation', and the reason I keep quoting the word 'installation' is because until we see it for ourselves I cannot help but wonder if this latest as of yet (and like all the others) completely unsubstantiated claim is more akin to a certain London flat, or should that be 'Ricin Mass-Production Facility'.

I do not think it is wise to pull the forces out at this time, not because it would destablise the Middle East (infact the East would be strengthened at the Wests' cost, but I guess if you are are shallow minded you could perceive that as destabilisation) but because it would undermine America and Britain as a result, and i'm British.

I wish for a speedy and safe return of all British service men and women, in the meen time however I intend to exercise my right to give America a piece of my mind because Iraq is not the ultimate objective of the American administration, it is the 2nd stage of a long Middle-East campaign and a concerted and intentional effort to rupture the United Nations.

I cincerely hope that the protesters achieve success in preventing the third stage (Saudi Arabia) from happening - even though all the liberal vegetarian commies [protestors] are far too stupid to realise that this is what is at stake.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:01
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Quote: "ok PneumaticDryll, so basically the USA destroyed their own trading towers did they? so they can then blame it on Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the pussy ass bitches!!"


Well, have you seen the $20 dollar bill trick? Plus the CIA trained Bin Ladin back in the 70's.

Quote: "so, my grandad was tortured by the Japanese, then watched is FRIENDS get be-headed for no god damn reason??? so my mother got RAPED for no god damn reason bitch!!! screw you and alot of you pussy ass bitches who don't believe this shite!!!! IT'S REAL PEOPLE, ACCEPT IT!!"


That era is dead, those people are dead, and the Country of Japan nor it's people has no hostility to America anymore. Accept it, and let the past heal.

I got family over there too, in fact it's my half brother I just found out a had 3 years ago and found him 1 year ago. I've yet to even talk to him face to face, so I'm a bit unsettled that's he's in a war. Back to the title of this forum, I protect to show my distatifaction with this resolve. It may not help this confict, but it might help prevent another. People are scared to go against the crowd, they think that most people want war, so they be quit. II protest so others will loses these silly ideas of peer pressure and stand up for what they beleive in.

This war won't end all of our troubles like Bush is pretending it will. What happens when Saddam is gone? The Turks are aloud back to thier homes and families. If we do set up a democratic goverment, Kurds will probably come to power. Turky hates the Kurds, thus is in a few year more war will break out between to US alies, what then? US will turn a blind eye to them both, thus further adding fuel to the middle east fire. Afterwards hostilities toward the US will be higher and more terroist attacks will come. Oh yeah, war solves everything, hopefully by that time, I'll have learned Japanese and be enjoing some warm saki in Ishikawa. Yeah, yeah, USA, we're number 23.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
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PiratSS
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:26
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"My theory is that Osama Bin Laden was dead a long time ago,"
although you said not to take this as a statement, how can you think that? If Osama truely was dead, Bush would be rubbing it in everyones face. Remember when Bush said were goin to smoke them out like rabbits and catch them on the run. Well we smoked them out alright, just haven't caught them. Suprisingly enough, Osama has been in large removed from the publics eye. You never hear him mentioned in the media any longer (at least not in the US). And now we've got the damn CIA saying that Saddam is obviously dead (or at least, seriously wounded) because he wore a pair of glasses on TV.

I don't think they want to give this out. I mean, they can use this as their advantage, to keep everyone afraid, to make this giant havok in the world.

I know that goverment did this type of things before.

You never hear him mentioned in the media any longer

Exactly! They are only immitating him.

Once again, this is my theory,

Cheers.

1PH J00 C4|\| U|\|dER$T@|\||) +|-|I$, j00 |-|@\/3 4lR3Ady w0|\|! - p1r@T$$
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:32
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LOL, it's funny, we are arguing over something that really has no solutions, we are all just going round in a DO..LOOP lol

peace people
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Xoid
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:35
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anyway, enough arguing, this is what starts bloody wars in the first place. Anyway back to coding
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haggisman
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:36
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Quote: "People are scared to go against the crowd, they think that most people want war, so they be quit. II protest so others will loses these silly ideas of peer pressure and stand up for what they beleive in."


Well the protestors are exactly the same, people get drawn into protests by peer pressure even much more than into being pro-war.

The leaders of the protests in britain called for children during a school day to go out and protest, not only is that completely irresponsible but what do 10 year olds know about the political situation? Protests usually end up a case of many people wandering around shouting slogans. Talk about a bunch memes.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:37
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Dryll:
Or a revolution?

ehm what is your definition of a revolution? in its original meaning it means a radical change in a society.

@ Xoid
if you really think our discussion is that terrible, give the fuck about reading it. and please stop calling everybody "pussy ass" and stuff like that, you will only get yourself a bad reputation...

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:41
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Dryll:
I don't really give a flying monkey nut about Saddam or his people, the problem is that I do care about my nations armed forces

man, that is almost racist...

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:51
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Asshole:
PneumaticDryll, How do you know that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden are not working together? maybe their NOT, but MOST likely they are!!!!

because both of them say that they aren't. sure, Saddam might want to lie about it, but Usama bin Ladin has no interest at all in denying it. plus the fact that the US have done very much investigation on it and been unable to prove that connection.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:52
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Would it not be great if we all could just step in a Boxing ring and fight it out? Since after all History is written by the victor.

**Begins lining his Boxing gloves with steel.**

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
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PiratSS
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 21:57
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I thought that it's a pretty cool pic.

Look at his hands.(Missiles!)

Cheers.

1PH J00 C4|\| U|\|dER$T@|\||) +|-|I$, j00 |-|@\/3 4lR3Ady w0|\|! - p1r@T$$
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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:02
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Sweet, thats pretty tight!

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
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PiratSS
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:03
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Lol,

I just noticed he had a pirate's hat on the top.

Fits my name.

Cheers.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:05
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Asshole:
PneumaticDryll, if you don't believe that Saddam kills is own people then why the hell are MOST of the country seeking Asylum elsewhere? if it was soooooo great then WHY??? why would they go to soooo much trouble to do so????

now, i'm not a friend of Saddam, but these facts are wrong. there haven't been many people at all seeking asylum from Iraq. most people have been fleeing from there since the war-threat came up. just today in the liberal newspaper Expressen (The Express), there is a big article about the first family to flee Iraq since the war started.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:10
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PiratSS
I thought that it's a pretty cool pic.

sure, nice looking picture, but the consensus (that the only thing that stops Saddam is Pentagon/US), is completely wrong. it is their fault that he is there at all.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:15
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BTW PiratSS, what does the SS in your nick symbolize? Sailing Ship? or maybe there is some german mixed into it =)

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:17
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Oh Communist, tell me do you live in America? or Great Britian?

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
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haggisman
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2003 22:25 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2003 22:36
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Quote: "there haven't been many people at all seeking asylum from Iraq"


Tell that to the immigration services in the UK...

Lets just take some numbers from the home office site for 2001. 9% of all the applications were people from Iraq.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 00:06
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Revelution, or rebels. In my mind is someone of a nationality who fights against that nationality. That at least is the context in which I meant it.

As for me not really caring about Iraqi's, that's not racist, uncompassionate sure - but I understood racism to be along the line of Iraqi's don't matter because they are smelly and horrible - and that's not what I said. I just don't care about them because Great Britain has enough problems with out taking on board one of the worlds lesser problems like political oppression in a far off and insignificant land.

If we are going to go off and be all humanitarian, firstly I think we need to take a serious look at Indonesia and East Timor. Then there's the consistent oppression of indiginous tribal peoples in the developing world, and even such places as America and Australia. Then of course there is Africa. Frankly Iraq's political supression is very insignificant on this scale, sure poverty there is a problem - but that's because of UN embargo which could easily be remedied if they really cared (afterall, the only people to apparantly care about humanitarian problems are the UN nations and not the Iraqi leadership ... apparantly).

/sigh

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Xoid
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 00:10 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 00:15
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The Communist >> You MUST have your head stuck up your arse!! I'm from Britain, there are thousands of bloody Asylum seekers over here? they give these people MORE money than they give single mothers, HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE me when you don't live over here!! you haven't got a bloody clue what you are talking about. The majority of Asylum seekers goto Britain and we bloody let them in, HMS Daedalus (old Naval establishment) in Portsmouth maybe home to 400 SINGLE MEN!! SINGLE MEN???? screw that, I don't mind mothers with their CHILDREN, because they should come first. Portsmouth is home to thousands of other Asylum seekers!! especially from Iraq!!!

sort it out COMMUNIST!!! STOP CHATTING SHIT and KNOW what you are saying before you type such cobblers!!!
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empty
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 00:25
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- The majority of Asylum seekers goto Britain
The majority of asylum seekers goto Germany. And they are not bloody BTW.

Ogres have layers.
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 00:30
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Oh boy, looks like a war has started here now (quick send in the b-52s), It doesn't take the intelligence of a blind Iraqi anti-aircraft gunner to know that this post will go up in flames soon

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 01:32
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It is certainly true that Germany gets a fair number of asylum seakers, as does France and Great Britain.

The problem with France is that they give them plane tickets to England or put them in a holding camp with a 1ft high paper fence as security right and situate the camp right next door to the channel tunnel. I hear they even have a bus to help the escapee's get to the terminus.

The problem Great Britain faces is that the native language is English, and therefor a much more disearable destination choice for many refugees, for these reasons Great Britain also has a large immigration problem.

All three harbour Al-Qeeda terrorist cells who entered the country in this way, Germany stands alone here in that it has not yet attempted to purge them. Having said that after 60 years Germany still hasn't dealt with the Nazi party.

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the_winch
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 01:59
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The Us is doomed to do the same as the British did and in 50years time we will have another dictator.

The propaganda machine is in top gear now, best just to ignore the news untill after the war.

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empty
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 02:11 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 02:20
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Quote: "
Having said that after 60 years Germany still hasn't dealt with the Nazi party.
"


I live in Germany since a couple of years now and I can honestly say that this isn't true.



Edit:
Quote: "
Germany stands alone here in that it has not yet attempted to purge them.
"

And this ain't true either.

Ogres have layers.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 02:29 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 02:33
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we have the largest immigration count of any other country in europe...
was what 200,000 (98,000 in 2000) which compaired to the next in line Germany at 35,000 - lol its not hard to see why (David Blunkett?) the immigration secutary promised to half this figure by next year with more strict guidelines on who can come in.
not to mention the refugees that come in illegally

but hey who's counting the figures here

well that aside... ya'll are kinda getting of the point - i don't think The Communist should be talking about and trying to change countries he doesn't even live in. Sorry but if you notice this whole conflict is being carried out by the English Cohilition - UK, US, AUS troops are currently the only troops within the battlezone.

sorry but really have to say your protests arn't going to help in the way that you believe they will... they will only juncture to cause more rifts that are not needed between the US,UK,AUS and the rest of europe!
it totally true you know, United We Stand ... they are being the wolves in the playground where you CAN'T be, because you don't know how anymore.

WAR is never wanted, and it is never pretty or glorious... but they are nessary when the times arrise! I'd rather that if they have the balls to actually tell the UN that with or without your backing WE WILL GO TO WAR - and actually DO IT!
and quite frankly although it may be a scarey sight to see, you can see the pure might of the armed forces at a fraction of thier strenght right now. And it is devastating ... they're showing thier teeth finally, and i don't think many other nations could stand up to that if they wanted to.

you asked earlier if i'm without emotion about what is going on - and i'm afraid there are men like me who arn't afriad to do what must be, arn't afriad to say what must be to make sure something is done. I feel for the losses going on, but i can't stop it ... and even if i could it would totally undermine what is being done in the middle east!
People must die for results to be achieved, i'm sorry but that is real life through and through... it isn't until you see the dead body of a close friend, that you either relise that this isn't worth it or you will loose your judgement and have emotions take over. Even the coldest hearts will loose themselves in that moment when someone they care for is DEAD!
Only Evil can stop Evil - because those with a truely good heart don't have what it takes to do what must be.

And you can't second guess what you've done, or if you've done the right thing! our boys and girls out there... they ARE NOT emotionless robots doing this because they can sleep at night with killing people, they do it because they want to defend what they know to be right, they do it because others CAN'T
believe it or not most will come back with the faces of those they kill in thier minds, the screams haunting them at night ... unlike you THEY will have to live with that for the rest of thier lives!
And when the time comes down to it most will freeze and hesitate until they are thrown into a life or death situation. There are very few people in this world who can actually kill without recourse.
You can be programmed and trained to - but at the end of the day it will still haunt you no matter how deep you push it.

If you don't have the guts to do thier job, then keep quiet and let them do thier job - then we can worry about one less evil in this world. And to be honest i don't care if Saddam is evil or not, no doubt he isn't and he will more than likely die - however this won't count against him ... it will count against the real enemies here. hopefully one day you'll work out who they are and what costs are going to be tolled just to make sure they never rise again!

[edit-]

just a side note not that anyone cares UK Immigration Statistics ... 16% of all immigration/refugee/asylum seekers are Iraqi

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Arrow
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 07:14
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Quote: "If we are going to go off and be all humanitarian, firstly I think we need to take a serious look at Indonesia and East Timor. "


Don't forget about the Tibet nuns who are raped, torcured, and killed daily. Of course that China's doing so no help to them because we don't lose most favored trade status with them.

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Drakportalen
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 10:34 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 10:36
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Shit I wrote a damn good post to this "Communist". And what happens?! YES the computer hanged up and I was forced to restart the computer. I dont think that The Communist has a clou of whats going on in the world he just sit there on his but in his comfortible chair and shouting out a hole stream of nonsense. You just cant think in anouther prespektive cant you? You say there is no asylum seekers. Maybe in Sweden you think there is no one but there is and you just cant think out side Sweden cant you? Well I dont think you are protesting against the war I think you are protesting against the hole USA and the west world. Were where you when Soviet invaded Afgahanistan? And what were you doing when Russian forces are depresing Chechnia? And what are you doi8ng about that China are executing hundreds of people every week? I dont see you protesting against that? No insteed of Chechnia and China you are protesting against USA and there allies, not because of the war no you are just protesting because you think that USA are some sort of axis of evil. How in bloody hell can a person be so ignorant and compare Bush to Hitler?
Step of your high horse and go see what the world is like.
And how can we take a person that is talking about human rights and have an avatar with the soviet symbol to? To me you just to bloody funny. And you are calling person ass hole and stupid? Are you interested in getting a real conversation? Then if the answer is yes I think you should stop calling person with other oppinions ass holes and stupid, because it will only show who is really an ass hole.

www.drakportalen.dot.nu
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 12:42
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Quote: "During the Gulf War in 1991, 150,000 civilian iraqies were killed by the allied forces. Don't let this happen again! The iraqi people have suffered enough, from a cruel and oppressing dictator, from the economical and material sanctions which have resulted in the death of one and a half million innocent iraqies, of which 700,000 were children, and from a 1000% rise of the cancer frequency due to US's use of radioactive uranium during the Gulf War."

You're quick to point out that sanctions have cost lives (do you have a source for these numbers? Because they are likely to be guesstimates) and yet it doesn't seem to bother you that Saddam Hussein himself has no regard for the lives of those in his country.

Quoted from BBC News Online: "In attempts to suppress the Kurds, for example, he has systematically used chemical weapons. And in putting down a rebellion of Shi'ia in the south he has razed towns to the ground and drained marshland."

Quote: "It is everyones duty to protest against the insanity of another attack on this poor, ravaged country. If there is a demonstration or some other kind of protest near you, I ask you, PLEASE, join it and show mr Bush and mr Blair that it is NOT OK!"


I will absolutely not protest going to war against a notorious, murderous dictator. Call me crazy, and all, but I think he's what people call a "bad man", and the world, not to mention the Iraqi people, are better off without him. I have no qualms whatsoever with the objective of disarming and removing him from office.

I do have a major problem with the events leadings up to the conflict. If the US and UK want to be in the UN, they must adhere to it's mechanisms. Ignoring the UN council when they feel like it simply defeats the point. You don't join an organisation like that and only adhere to them when you want to.

But, now that the war is started, I wish them luck. This situation needs to be resolved, and stopping now will only strengthen Saddam's position. He will, as always, take the position of a hero, valiantly turning back the unjust war against the Iraqi people.

Innocent people will die in this war, that's a given. Innocent people will die for years to come under Saddam's rule, and then under the rule of his sons. Stories of brutality from this family are widespread. I won't repeat them here, but needless to say, the world would be a better place without them.

Whatever the motives were for waging war, and however flawed their logic and reasoning, and despite the fact that they decided not to listen to the UN, the war is underway. Pulling out now makes the sacrifices already made, the lives already lost, for nothing.

"So it will go on until the moment comes for bombastic slogans to be replaced by a succinct epitaph to one of the most infamous dictators of the century. For the overwhelming majority of Iraqis, that moment can not come too soon."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1100529.stm

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 14:17
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Did you know the contracts to repair and rebuild Iraqi oil instalations has already been awarded to an American company, and the chairman of that company is non other than Mr Dick Cheney.
If this was realy a war about liberating Iraqi people I might have a different view. It's about money and oil and control.
Saddam Hussein and his henchmen are evil men and I truly hope the Iraqis are free of them soon, but they will go from Saddams control to USA's control.
In the nineties, a few years after the first gulf war, the Kurds in the North and the Iraqis in the South were encouraged by America to rise up and defeat Saddam. They rose up and America left them to their fate - Saddam crushed them.

This is an invasion to have a big piece control in the oil-rich middle-east. It is NOT about liberation. It is about control & money. It is wrong, un-just, illegal and immorral.
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Arrow
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 15:53
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Quote: "I dont think that The Communist has a clou of whats going on in the world he just sit there on his but in his comfortible chair and shouting out a hole stream of nonsense."


And you do?

Quote: " I will absolutely not protest going to war against a notorious, murderous dictator. Call me crazy, and all, but I think he's what people call a "bad man", and the world, not to mention the Iraqi people, are better off without him. I have no qualms whatsoever with the objective of disarming and removing him from office."


As we've said many, many times before, we're not protesting for Saddam, we're protesting the deaths of thousands of inocent civlians. How many inocent died in the last bombing run we did? How about all the counter attacks aimed at the civlians after we bombed them? And what about all the firedly fire casuallties that have been there since day one? I'm getting sick and tired of hearing that we shot down our own alies plain or we crashed into one midflight. Half of our casualties this war are gonna be firely fire, at least. If we can't determin which guy are enemy or ally then we don't desirve to be in a war, no we desirve to be in one, just not as the antagonast.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:19
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Define innocent.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:29
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Quote: "As we've said many, many times before, we're not protesting for Saddam, we're protesting the deaths of thousands of inocent civlians. How many inocent died in the last bombing run we did? How about all the counter attacks aimed at the civlians after we bombed them?"

That's exactly my point. You're willing to protest the deaths of thousands on innocent civilians (so far, less than 100 civilian fatalities have been confirmed, but let's gloss over that, right?), and we should stop the war because of that? You can't protest the deaths we'll cause without accepting the alternative. I'm aware you're not protesting for Saddam, but that is the alternative. That's what'll happen if the protests are successful.

Quote: "
And what about all the firedly fire casuallties that have been there since day one? I'm getting sick and tired of hearing that we shot down our own alies plain or we crashed into one midflight. Half of our casualties this war are gonna be firely fire, at least. If we can't determin which guy are enemy or ally then we don't desirve to be in a war, no we desirve to be in one, just not as the antagonast."

The friendly fire issue is something for the armed forces to sort out. That's an utterly ludicrous reason to stop a war. Are you seriously saying we should stop the war because of this? I accept that it's a Very Bad Thing, but we have armies for the purpose of fighting. If an army isn't fit to fight a war, then there's no point having an army at all. And make no mistake, these armies, despite the setbacks, are more than capable of doing that. When someone signs up to the military, they are signing up to risk their lives. It's sad when it's an accident, yes. Tragic, in fact. But these are soldiers in a combat situation.

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Marcusmole
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:31
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i think that the war had to start because he has always been a problem but i dont argee in the way in which that they are a going about it. i feel that the should have taken him out when they had the chance.

Mole of the mini variety and general all round dude
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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:39 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 16:40
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-That's exactly my point. You're willing to protest the deaths of thousands on innocent civilians (so far, less than 100 civilian fatalities have been confirmed, but let's gloss over that, right?), and we should stop the war because of that?

Most people don't know what war really is.

Of course not everyone's Grand-father/family kicked some Nazi arses.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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