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Geek Culture / Protest against the war!

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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:40
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Quote: "If this was realy a war about liberating Iraqi people I might have a different view. It's about money and oil and control."


You clearly don't realise just how much of that money needs to be invested just to get that many troops across the world, let alone the cost of an individual missile.

People are constantly trying to find ulterior motives in this war, when it's pretty plain. Weapons of mass destruction being in the hands of a ruthless dictator are... bad. Sure, they have no solid proof that there are any in Iraq, but that's a different matter. Would you trust Saddam if he says he's not got any? Me neither, frankly. Of course, if they find any WMD, then everyone'll say "ah, the US put them there, to justify this war!". Yes! Of course! Because it's about oil! Blah blah blah...

Quoted from BBC News Online Interactive Essays - War on Iraq: "Is it so difficult to imagine that both Bush and Blair sincerely believe - rightly or wrongly - that a well-armed Iraq poses an intolerable danger to the civilized world? If access to oil were of concern to them, one might have expected members of their administrations to hint as much. After all, the Thatcher and Bush "senior" administrations were quite open about the role that oil played in justifying the first go-around in Kuwait. Polls in the United States revealed at the time, moreover, that the public responded favourably to the argument. Why the supposed reticence now?"

"If the argument is that war is primarily being executed to ensure global access to Iraqi oil reserves, then it flounders upon misunderstanding. The only thing preventing Iraqi oil from entering the world market in force is the partial U.N. embargo on Iraqi exports. Surely if access to Iraqi oil were the issue, it would have occurred to Bush and Blair that removing the embargo is about 100 billion dollars cheaper - and less politically risky - than going to war."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2861721.stm

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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:43
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Quote: "Define innocent."

In this case: a civilian who didn't choose Saddam Hussein as a dictator, isn't fighting against coalition troops, that sort of thing. Why do you ask?

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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:50 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 16:50
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-In this case: a civilian who didn't choose Saddam Hussein as a dictator, isn't fighting against coalition troops, that sort of thing. Why do you ask?


Probably because the only civilians they show to the rest of the world are either Dead or carriying a weapon,like Saddam's son's 'partisan millitia'.They're dressed as civilians and fight the 'oppressor'...What a brainwash.

Any civilian that doesn't reach out for the numerous red cross or humanitarian camps and stays there until the end of the conflict is either willing to confuse and cause damage or is suicidal.

That's my opinion

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 16:58
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Just to clarify: You're saying that unless a civilian goes to a red cross camp and stays there, they're not an innocent civilian and are acting against coalition interests or want to die?

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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:00
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No but I'm placing myself in their positions...If I'd stay,it'd be either because I'm willing to die for Saddam's cause or because I have no other place to go...therefore the second option should actually be to go to one of these camps,otherwise there may be just as much death in the civilians than in the iraqi army.(which nobody wants)

That's just common sense.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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The Communist
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:09
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Glennyboy:
If access to oil were of concern to them, one might have expected members of their administrations to hint as much

Uhm, many people in the Bush-administration and in the Pentagon have actually admitted, quite frankly, that this war has nothing to do with humans rights, democracy or weapons of mass destruction. ir has been said from the Bush-administration that they are actually carrying out the Jimmy Carter-Doctrine. read it, it is reallt frightening what it says in there.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:12
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You don't think that the camps would turn people away unless they specifically needed help? If every civilian thought like that, and the camps took in everyone that showed up, in need of medical care or not, they'd be swamped and unable to function. Common sense would dicate that red cross camps will turn people away who don't need their help.

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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:19
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Quote: "Uhm, many people in the Bush-administration and in the Pentagon have actually admitted, quite frankly, that this war has nothing to do with humans rights, democracy or weapons of mass destruction."

Yes, I heard that quote. I believe, taken in context, it referred to the fact that the only reasons America is poking its nose into Iraq is for reasons of self-preservation. Like I said, a crazy dicatator who even might have WMD is a bad thing. If America and the UK feel he is stockpiling these weapons, it's probably a good thing that they're going in there. Still doesn't make it about oil, it makes it about self-preservation. But despite that motive, the Iraqi people should get a pretty good deal out of it.

Quote: "
ir has been said from the Bush-administration that they are actually carrying out the Jimmy Carter-Doctrine. read it, it is reallt frightening what it says in there."

Do you have a source for this? Or was it speculation from an over-zealous journo? (note: 'from the Bush-administration' isn't a source)

I'll check out that Jimmy Carter doctrine, sounds quite interesting.

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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:20 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 17:22
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I agree about the Red Cross but the refugees camps are there for that purpose...And don't go thinking there are only them out there.

Heck Quebecers and even Canadians have their own refuges and medical camps.They're sponsored by anonymous donators and it is almost their only purpose...to help people that flee momentarly the cities that're undersieged.

Oh,also we have people going there to actually protect civilian buildings...Yes,people are actually buying airline tickets and going there to get bombed!

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:25
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So everyone in Baghdad should be in refugee camps by now, since that's getting hit by airstrikes? You and I both know that if that were to happen, there'd be a humanitarian crisis on a large scale, refugee camps or not. A refugee camp isn't a fully furnished hotel, and the more people show up, the more threat of disease and lack of food. It's possible you could stay in a city, within reach of all the supplies and hygiene requirements you have. All you're risking is the relatively small chance of getting hit by a bomb compared to the dangers of a long journey to an uncertain and unwelcoming destination.

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heartbone
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:26
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No matter what you all must admit one thing.....

BUSH proved Osama bin Ladin correct about the American intent.

The Saudi Royals never should have allowed the American infidels on their soil,
BECAUSE THEY WON'T EVER LEAVE. Manifest Destiny!

"Can't we all get along?"

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:31
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I admit that the terrorists have it easy by some other countries.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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The Communist
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 17:56 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 18:12
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first of all, i want to apologise for the asylum stuff, i was looking at statistics of sweden. my mistake, really sorry.


Drakportalen:
Shit I wrote a damn good post to this "Communist". And what happens?! YES the computer hanged up and I was forced to restart the computer.

too bad. windows sucks man

I dont think that The Communist has a clou of whats going on in the world he just sit there on his but in his comfortible chair and shouting out a hole stream of nonsense. You just cant think in anouther prespektive cant you?

heh, LOL. i don't have any comfy chair, too bad i have to lie down then. x-d

so where in the world have you been?

Well I dont think you are protesting against the war I think you are protesting against the hole USA and the west world.

oh, yeah, of course. i just hate western countries, that is why i'm protesting against the war, right.

Were where you when Soviet invaded Afgahanistan?

wasn't born yet. my parents probably did something, i'll ask them.

And what were you doing when Russian forces are depresing Chechnia?



And what are you doi8ng about that China are executing hundreds of people every week?

sending letters to their government through Amnesty International.

I dont see you protesting against that?

of course, you've never met me. this is just stupid, how can you say that "you are not doing this and you are not doing that" when you haven't even met me.

No insteed of Chechnia and China you are protesting against USA and there allies, not because of the war no you are just protesting because you think that USA are some sort of axis of evil.

why would i think that the USA are an axis of evil? i don't think that there exists any axis of evil, only evil leaders. i've been in the US actually. nice nature, nice people.

How in bloody hell can a person be so ignorant and compare Bush to Hitler?

okay...

the listed countries are generally considered (by Amnesty International and the UN) to be terrorstates or states which has systematic use of torture:


In africa:

Angola
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Cote D'ivoire
Democratic Republic Of Congo
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Gambia
Guinea
Kenya
Lesotho
* Liberia
Malawi
Mauritius
Mozambique
Namibia
Nigeria
Rwanda
Senegal
Sierra Leone
* Somalia
South Africa
* Sudan
Swaziland
Tanzania
Togo
Uganda
Zambia
* Zimbabwe

on the american continent:
Argentina
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Colombia
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Guyana
Jamaica
Mexico
Paraguay
Peru
Trinidad & Tobago
Venezuela

asia and the pacific ocean:
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
* China
* Democratic People's Republic Of Korea (more generally called North Korea)
Fiji
India
Indonesia
Malaysia
* Myanmar
Nepal
Pakistan
Philippines
Sri Lanka
Taiwan
* Thailand

europe:
Albania
Armenia
Azerbaijan
* Belarus
Bulgaria
Georgia
Italy
Kazakstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Moldova
Romania
Russian Federation
Slovak Republic
Tajikistan
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan

the middle east and northern africa
Algeria
Egypt
* Iran
* Iraq
Israel And The Occupied Territories
Jordan
* Kuwait
Lebanon
* Libya
Morocco
* Palestinian Authority
* Qatar
Saudi Arabia
* Syria
Tunisia
* United Arab Emirates
Yemen


ALL of the above listed terrorist/torture states governments, except for the ones marked with an asterisk, are actively supported either military or economically by the Bush administration.

i'll give you some more examples later of stuff that Bush himself are doing...


Step of your high horse and go see what the world is like.

i'm very well into what the world is like.

And how can we take a person that is talking about human rights and have an avatar with the soviet symbol to?

just a little note, it is NOT the Soviet symbol, it is the hammer and the sickle (used to symbolize the union between the farming class and the working class, commonly known as the Proletary) which was sometimes used by Soviet, inside a red socialist star.

perhaps i should start bugging everybody who wears a christian cross? i mean, just think about what people have done in the name of christianity! the crusades, where thousands of jews and muslims were killed? the inquisition where women were accused of being witches and burned?

To me you just to bloody funny. And you are calling person ass hole and stupid? Are you interested in getting a real conversation? Then if the answer is yes I think you should stop calling person with other oppinions ass holes and stupid, because it will only show who is really an ass hole.

the person i called Asshole called me a "pussy ass bitch". in comparison to that, asshole isn't that bad. sorry about that though, i will better.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Wayne
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 18:01
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A show of hands to all the veterans here! I'm one!

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 18:19
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You clearly don't realise just how much of that money needs to be invested just to get that many troops across the world, let alone the cost of an individual missile.

So you saying Iraqis should pay for the missiles that destroy there homes?

People are constantly trying to find ulterior motives in this war, when it's pretty plain. Weapons of mass destruction being in the hands of a ruthless dictator are... bad.

Iraq is ruled by a military dictator. Iraq is suspected to posess chemical and biological weapons - not a fact just a suspicion.
Pakistan is ruled by a military dictator. Pakistan has about 30 nukes - fact - are we gonna disharm them?

I am not trying to find ulterior motives - I just see the facts and don't listen to the bush/blair spin, nor do I listen to the Saddam spin. I just look at the facts and come to my own conclusions.
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DangYankee
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 18:22 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 18:41
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heartbone- God I tried to say out of this but ignorance seems to thrive. First of all the Saudis wanted us over there, they were pretty much pissen in their sheets when Saddam went on his little excursion in 91. Second I've talked to a lots of Saudis in the malls,streets, etc.. heck even some maj or col can't remember now. But I did find in my travels that the majority of people are just like everyone else, trying to live a life as best they can and make a buck. It's the minority of extremists that really make life on this planet miserable for the rest of us. Heck they even gave us a gold "real gold" medal. But grant you they do take alot of crap from the fundamentalists within and around the region, sometimes I think they need to crack a few fundamentalists heads together.
In anycase I hear we have new resort in Qatar that realy wants us. We will aways have a present over there. It's a global world get over it.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
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Syrinth
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 18:42
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The only war we should have is a war against Bush!!! but I really hate the way these ultra-left wing nut cases that call themselves comunists are jumping on the situation! They say that Lenin was good but now he is rotting in hell and his red flag is soked in blood!LoL

What do you get in an evil garden? A Bush!
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haggisman
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 18:43
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Quote: "So you saying Iraqis should pay for the missiles that destroy there homes?"


I think you are missing the point, If the war were truly about the money then it would be a waste as it would cost far more than they would ever get out of it...

Quote: "Iraq is ruled by a military dictator. Iraq is suspected to posess chemical and biological weapons - not a fact just a suspicion.
Pakistan is ruled by a military dictator. Pakistan has about 30 nukes - fact - are we gonna disharm them?"


The difference is Pakistan is allowed to have nukes, Iraq is not allowed to have WMD.

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 19:11
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I think you are missing the point, If the war were truly about the money then it would be a waste as it would cost far more than they would ever get out of it...

I don't think you realise how much oil Iraq produces. The spoils from control of its oil would dwarf the cost of military conflict.

If USA/UK remove saddam, then hand COMPLETE control of the country and its resources back to its people then leave, I will be happy and I will be glad that I was wrong.
But what will happen is USA/UK will remove saddam, then they will install a government of their choosing then they will control Iraqs oil.

Maybe you truly believe 20milliion people are gonna say: "Thank God the Yanks/Brits have come over to take charge of our country 'cus we realy can't look after ourselves."
I think they are more likely to die defending THEIR country than be humiliated by surrendering to an invading force.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 19:18
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i wish i could say i'm a veteran... pitty i'm not old enough
noticed there has been a complete work around what i wrote

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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actarus
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 19:37
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-just a little note, it is NOT the Soviet symbol, it is the hammer and the sickle (used to symbolize the union between the farming class and the working class, commonly known as the Proletary) which was sometimes used by Soviet, inside a red socialist star

Then what's that Red star doing under your hammer n' sickle

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The Communist
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 20:05
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Syrinth:
The only war we should have is a war against Bush!!! but I really hate the way these ultra-left wing nut cases that call themselves comunists are jumping on the situation! They say that Lenin was good but now he is rotting in hell and his red flag is soked in blood!LoL

i really don't see the point in having a war against Bush.

BTW not many support Lenin anymore. I don't for example.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Syrinth
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 21:29
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I would rather be dead than red R.A.C

What do you get in an evil garden? A Bush!
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the_winch
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 21:59
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Quote: "No but I'm placing myself in their positions...If I'd stay,it'd be either because I'm willing to die for Saddam's cause or because I have no other place to go...therefore the second option should actually be to go to one of these camps,otherwise there may be just as much death in the civilians than in the iraqi army.(which nobody wants)

That's just common sense."


Thats not common sense, you would be prepared to loose everything you own but can't carry to walk across what could be a battle field to find a red cross camp that may or may not exist. The only information about the war is Saddam telling you that he is winning and whatever tiny other bits of info you can get hold of.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:20
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:: sighs :: can see this all straying so far from the subject its stupid - i guess the real war on here has been lost and its just comming to the closing hours where we make pathetic stabs at everyone hopeing to do some damage before this post disappears into obsurity.

which would be a fitting end for such a post

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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The Communist
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:21
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D_D
The only information about the war is Saddam telling you that he is winning and whatever tiny other bits of info you can get hold of.

hmmm, the allied forces have taken over the radio sendings, using psychological warfare to try and make the people give up... so far the television networks is still kept under statual control though.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 01:07
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Quote: "Half of our casualties this war are gonna be firely fire, at least"


OK this is a threadjack but:

Saw on the news this morning and believe I recall correctly that in the last Gulf war British losses to friendly fire where over triple to losses sustained against the enemy.

So far in this war British forces have lost 1 soldier to the Iraqi's (I havn't seen news today though), 14 to friendly fire and a number in the helicopter crash.

Friendly fire is very much a part of war but our politicians keep telling us that every effort is being made to reduce these incidents, but significantly you don't see any reports about British friendly fire in either of these two wars - and no, it's not because our guns don't work as we pick up good ones from the retreating Iraqi's!

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Arrow
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Agreed, untill we get some competent people shooting these missles we should be using them.

Quote: "First of all the Saudis wanted us over there, they were pretty much pissen in their sheets when Saddam went on his little excursion in 91."


Are you daft, you smoking something? The Saudies don't like Saddam, yes, but they don't war either. They know that'll just cause more problems. Unless the UN run the new Iraq goverment, we'll have the same problem 10 years down the road.

Syrinth, you've been force feed so much propoganda BS, I bet you're eyes are brown. The one thing that could cause the US to accully do some good is for the everyman to accully think. There are far to many stupid people in this world.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 03:02
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6 men... 1 American, 5 British involved in the crash of 2 Seakings
2 British Pilots lost due to the Patriot System shooting their Tornado GR7 down
4 more British Soldiers have been taken as POW whilst on a convoy (status unknown, but suggest as alive from Iraqi TV Casts)
10 killed due to friendly fire
1 British Soldier killed by the enemy was yesterday

Total british calsualties so far 18 + 4 POW + 6 MIA (at last count) ... which doesn't include todays which i've missed.

there was a thing a little while back about how the US Army was as well trained as the British... however there are Zero American deaths due to Friendly British or Australian fire!

infact all American Calsualties have been from Iraqi or American Fire/Weaponry/Technical Problems.
And although our men are men have had setbacks due to technical difficulties, they've atleast made sure who there were fireing at were friendly or foe.

There are a greater number of American Casualties & POW (although the full tallys i'm not sure of) however only 2 MIA right now.
I have no idea about the Australian casualties as there has been no mention on UK or US radio/Tv

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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DangYankee
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 04:58 Edited at: 25th Mar 2003 05:01
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The FOG OF WAR crap what did you guys think by Sunday we would wrap this up, get real.Everybody wants instant gadification. TV the media is a good thing but a double edge sword.

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DangYankee
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 05:06
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Raven - You don't get points for being old enough to be a veteran... only by serving.

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Shadow Robert
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lol... i think your missed the point that i wish i was old enough to have served

though my attitude isn't well received within the armed forces - cause i have a problem being bossed around by anyone. 6months in the RAF, hit my watch commander for a comment he made and duely found myself being discharged
was an honourable one atleast, cause the guy who was actually on watch with me mention how it happened, but because i hadn't been on active duty as it were officially ... they couldn't do any serious displinary stuff.

wish i'd gone back and hit the guy again now lol, not that i wanted to stay in any longer at that point - come out of basic training wanting to go into the pilots corp. just to find out cause i had the mildest of colourblindness i couldn't be a fighter pilot best i could hope for would be to go into the engineering side and be ground crew for the jets.

ho hum eh (^_^)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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DangYankee
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 05:42
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Arrow -Are you daft, you smoking something? I could ask the same question.
Until you tell me what your experience in this is "never mind". Look the UN is a good idea for some things that's it. They "Saudis" say things only for the region and then give US the wink.
Any way what was your point? "it a love hate relationship" YES

Back to the WAR: Hey "Total Fear" is what we are realy talking about, we are trying to remove that and everyone is so afraid it will fail. They are willing to just to get along and live in fear , I hope you never experience total fear and no hope.
We have the lux to say what we want, enjoy it. Don't supress it.

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Arrow
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 07:11
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DangYankee, what are you sighting as a sorce on the Saudi opinion? I've heard numorus reports and interview stating the they don't want the war.

I went through 3 months of Basic Training, that my experance. Personally I think it's good when use to boost your self moral, but not when killing another person, far to easy to get brainwashed into thinking they're just targets and not people with thier own lives and dreams.

Quote: "Hey "Total Fear" is what we are realy talking about, we are trying to remove that and everyone is so afraid it will fail. They are willing to just to get along and live in fear , I hope you never experience total fear and no hope.
We have the lux to say what we want, enjoy it. Don't supress it."


Lol, that's a good one, what do you think we are to hundreds of other counrties? We're the total fear, and unless we start acting more "grown up" we'll contenue to live in fear of another 9/11. Remember the past or your doomed to repeat it. We're falling into the same situation the start the taliband in the first place.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 10:36
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Quote: "So you saying Iraqis should pay for the missiles that destroy there homes?"


Yes. Of course that's what I'm saying. No question.

*sigh*

Quote: "Iraq is ruled by a military dictator. Iraq is suspected to posess chemical and biological weapons - not a fact just a suspicion."

In this case, that's enough.

Quote: "Pakistan is ruled by a military dictator. Pakistan has about 30 nukes - fact - are we gonna disharm them?"

No, because (to my knowledge) Pakistan hasn't invaded two countries in recent years, and hasn't deployed any WMD or BNC in anything but a test capacity. My criteria for what is "bad" was, perhaps, not clearly displayed on the board (although I would have thought anyone could have derived this for themselves) so I'll elaborate: AGRESSIVE dictator who has come up against allied forces in the past + possibility of WMD in his possesion = possibility that these weapons could be used in a capacity that does not benefit allied nations. It's a pretty simple equation, and right now, Saddam is at the top of the list. After him, maybe there'll be some serious discussion about North Korea.

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Glennyboy
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 10:51
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Quote: "I don't think you realise how much oil Iraq produces. The spoils from control of its oil would dwarf the cost of military conflict."

The allies have already said that they will turn the oil fields over to the new Iraqi government. And, the majority of profits from that oil would need to be spent on rebuilding the country. So, even if for some reason this new government agreed to just give oil to the allies, how much could they actually spare?

Quoted from BBC News Online: "Iraq represents just 3% of the world's total production capacity. Its oil exports are at about the same level as Nigeria's.

In contrast to the 1990-91 Gulf crisis, which was more about energy security, this current crisis is focused on overall security, and it requires several leaps of logic to conclude that the current Iraq crisis is "all about oil".

Physically, Iraq could double its current capacity, but that could well take a decade or more.

No US administration or any British government would launch so momentous a campaign - and take such risks - just to facilitate a handful of oil development contracts and a moderate increase in supply half a decade from now."
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2847905.stm

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 12:03
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The allies have already said that they will turn the oil fields over to the new Iraqi government.

I truly hope they do and I truly hope I'm wrong, but I'm not going to take the word of politicions. At the moment I truly believe this war is a complete lie and it is about power, money and domination. As far as I can see we are invading another country, and I ask myself "Why?". Maybe you believe that we would undertake such a large and risky military adventure to liberate suffering people from an oppresive regime. Well I don't, and nothing a politician says will change my mind.
Like I say, I TRULY do hope you are right, but I fear you are not.
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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 12:36
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Communist:
Where are you from? (sorry, I forgot ).
You are really strange person ...

I am a cat. I have a hat.
I don't like mouse. I live in the house.
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 12:55
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Quote: "I truly hope they do and I truly hope I'm wrong, but I'm not going to take the word of politicions. At the moment I truly believe this war is a complete lie and it is about power, money and domination."

Of course you do. That's the ulterior motive I was talking about, the one you said that you're not trying to find.

Quote: "As far as I can see we are invading another country, and I ask myself "Why?". Maybe you believe that we would undertake such a large and risky military adventure to liberate suffering people from an oppresive regime."

Frankly no, I don't. And I've already said that. I've already said what this war is most likely to be about more than once in this thread. The war isn't out of kindness. It isn't to help the poor people of Iraq. It's for self preservation. The possibility of WMD in the hands of Saddam Hussein is a ... altogether now ... bad thing. And, frankly, the US and UK have been fairly open about that. Which, believe it or not, doesn't automatically mean they're lying.

Quote: "Well I don't, and nothing a politician says will change my mind.
Like I say, I TRULY do hope you are right, but I fear you are not."

Well bear this in mind: no one likes a U-turn. The rare time a politician says something straight, he intends to stick to it. Otherwise, the press jump on it.

Bush and Blair have actually risked their political careers over this war, and they both know it's already harmed their chances of re-election. What does that tell you about this war? To me, it sends a clear message that they aren't doing this for political gain.

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actarus
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 14:39 Edited at: 25th Mar 2003 14:41
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-Well I don't, and nothing a politician says will change my mind

Then don't even bother tickling Democracy then...Maybe that's rude but that's rude love.

I'm not saying this thread should end or be locked but REALLY,nothing can be debated here that hasn't been with the UNSC.

The only thing that'll come up of those debates are divisions and revolt.

Sadly enough,this situation has reached a planetary scale making it even easier for despots and dictators like Saddam who can really have a good laugh at the world populations that fear and keep away from him.

Those leader aren't dumbasses you know.

Still,what's the most disturbing and yet shocking is that not alot seem to actually see the game that's played...


-Like I say, I TRULY do hope you are right, but I fear you are not

So what do you fear...That the US will take over the world?...LMAO!

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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The Communist
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 16:36
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Glennyboy:
No, because (to my knowledge) Pakistan hasn't invaded two countries in recent years

no, only one. Kashmir

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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The Communist
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 16:37
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n3t3r453r
Where are you from? (sorry, I forgot ).
You are really strange person ...

sweden...

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 17:08
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Arrow - "far to easy to get brainwashed into thinking they're just targets and not people with thier own lives and dreams."

Arrow, explain to me ... do you think that there would be over half a million service men and women within the US Army if everytime they shot at someone and killed them they were free to think, "this man has a life... maybe he had children and a wife... maybe they're waiting home fora father that will never come home now... all because of me!?"

imagin going through that with every person you killed!
even the strongest and emotionless of people could not handle the guilt and greif - and infact alot couldn't from the first Gulf. Killing for, defending and fighting for your country is no longer a task that just any man who can pick up a sword an do now... the times have changed too much and our compassion has been spood fed for years to make us feel bad about every little thing we do, from Vegetarians making everyone think about how it is our fault the meat we eat is dead - to little orphans in Nigeria who we'll never see but we're made feel guilty that its our fault they are poor and homeless!

Everyone works to the assumption that the government is just out to lie and bull us... but governments are like kids, they have short attention spans - its only when they truely focus on a single subject, that is when we should all pay attention. The US government is reknown for lying to the people through media, but the UK media is constantly in the bad books with the government because they call it how they see it - and its hard not to see alot of retraction statements on stories that make the government 'look bad' or something the country is doing look bad.
I mean if it was upto the government ur crime figures would be fantastically low, there is no problem at all ... every year the police are doing better and better jobs ... the media has noted how the police are desperately underfunded, how the government is making them crack down in key areas of crime to make sure the figures DO come down, and they're cracking down in some truely stupid areas.

For example they've started to crack down on Child Porn, yes a worthy crackdown ... however they've let Homicides slip - and to be honest i'd rather be rapped and still be alive than slice and diced by some loonitic that they've let wander around because some stupid popstar is downloading picture of Child Porn - oftenly from source outside of the UK's jurisdiction so they can't really prevent the blasted stuff in the first place!

Priorities in the UK have always been wrong - but that said the media has never been pressured into running a story to glorify them and what they're doing as we have laws to prevent that kind of thing which believe it or not the tabloids would have a bloody field day with ... and if your in a tabloid then your having a bad day to start with.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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DangYankee
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 17:10
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Oh will it ever end? /The humanity

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
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actarus
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 17:16
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Earth should get rid of us soon.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 17:18
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looks like its already doing a pretty good job Actarus

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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DangYankee
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 18:02
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Yes it is. I often wander if viruses is not the earth's immune system. Constanly seeking balance of nature....... what I was dreaming again back to the war.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
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haggisman
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 18:05
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hmmm I wonder how this will all go down in the history books...

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
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Syrinth
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 18:40
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Hey Comunist, I think I will be a bolshevic no other party is really my kinda thing! Yer and I want to unite our workers and stuff so long as we keep freedom and order and alow people to practise their own socalism!

Yer Comunism is kinda cool! Great! Hey and the only thing we have got to loose is our chains right! Good!

Comunist how would you like to join my pro-Bolshevik game design team Sonnenrad?

What do you get in an evil garden? A Bush!
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Arrow
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 19:40
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Glennyboy, I suspect you have drugs on you and you may have killed someone, is that suspition enogh to haul you off to jail? Can't you see that statement is want Saddam has been doing for the last 15 years?

Quote: "imagin going through that with every person you killed!
even the strongest and emotionless of people could not handle the guilt and greif "

Exactly, we need to start thinking about the other side a bit more compasionaty. If people would think about others more often then maybe we wouldn't want to be so gung-ho to drop napailm on a famialy of 3.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
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