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Geek Culture / Protest against the war!

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the_winch
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 20:12
This war will go in the history books for one reason or another.
Saddam could go out with a big big bang and that would definatly get in the history books. I think Blair and Bush want their names in the books as well.

It's events like this that show you how disgusting a lot of politics is.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 20:20
Arrow i'm british not american ... perhaps you should look more closely at your own countries tactics rather than spouting off about armies in general.
i think the current statistics speak for themselves, there are 3 broadcasts i can take from Iraqi - British - American.

Somewhere in the middle of everything you get the truth, that aside it is far easier to kill someone your not looking directly at. I wasn't talking about the LongRange weapons operators or pilots ... i'm talking about the grunts who have to actually see exactly who they're looking at to take them out.

however why should we all be more compasionate?
explain to me how everyone being a tree hugging hippie is going to solve the worlds problems??
it isn't because other countries have thier own rules and state of mind for things - and you can't make the whole world one big hippie states, althought i'm sure alot of people would love to.

and i think virus's are the worlds way of keeping our population down, because there are so many people who just don't care how many kids they make or with who ... just look at the over population, who don't get a good life because there just arn't enough resources for everything - we're like some damn'd plague on the planet, especially since we became all "everyone should have equal rights" on each other. Atleast when it was survival of the fittest our population was kept low cause we subverted people, killed, mamed and generally made sure that only the strongest people would ever see adulthood.

i mean look at it, with medicine to save lives, the rights for equality, the fact that governments finance so incompetant people don't die of starvation or such... we're surround by a world of fools, and dispite several wars claiming millions of lives we're still growing at a stupidly huge rate.
plus the fact that we're not only using up space and resources, no thats not enough we have to also actually kill off our supplies of oxygen and our own atmosphere whic is protecting us from the sun!

god... quite frankly, several hundred thousand people will not be missed in the grand scheme - perhaps when the countries decide to take care of home business and lets those who screwed themselves by overpopulating fixx themselves we may get onto the road to fixxing alot of the stupid problems on this planet. sure alot of people will be hurt, but no one ever looks quite at the bigger picture of anything - only thier pathetic little corner of it.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 04:38 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 04:44
Arrow I think you have a drug problem, you are accusing a lot of people of being on drugs-- humm maybe it's your drug problem! check in get help!
If I have to get verbose Iam going to slap myself.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 04:50 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 05:00


It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 05:59
Raven -- and i think virus's are the worlds way of keeping our population down, because there are so many people who just don't care how many kids they make or with who ... just look at the over population
Hey it's human nature for better or worse! Don't you want off spring? A little raven to nurture? damn spelling

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
heartbone
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 06:08
http://www.heartbone.com/thoughts/PandorasBox.html
I created a page with a few choice thoughts on this matter.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Arrow
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 07:57
Ok, first off, I don't understand people who believe in the end of the world. Are you so tired of life that you must fantasize about dying and with everyone else so your not lonely? The end of days story is for those who hate life, have no friends, and are not strong enough to kill themself. It's just an excape from planning or thinking about the immediate future.

Secondly, I don't need drugs, I got the natural high. I'm full of dopamine!!! x-d Get a life DangYankee Doodle Dork, how come you only retaliate against minor detail and not the meat of the arguement?

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 09:50
If you are pro-war and active in this thread, please write down a list of all the other nations that we need to invade on the same principles as Iraq and who are more serious problems based upon those principles - it might just drill home what is really happening here.

Are we invading Iraq because they MIGHT have weapons of mass destruction and we don't trust them, or are we invading China? - who are far more dangerous.

Are we invading Iraq because they dont have much humanity, or are we invading a country like - say China - because they dont exercise much humanity.

Let's take another example, Pakistan, who definately have nukes, are a military dictatorship and locked into a bitter (and at one point almost holocaustic) territory dispute with India, a member of the commonwealth and long standing ally who has sacrificed much to fight in the name of freedom and Western values.

Are we throwing cruise missiles into Pakistan? No we are not, and yet they pose a far more significant thread.

Maybe we should use North Korea as an example, or what about Iran... No wait, lets take Saudi as an example because they have known links with Al-Qeeda - oh hang on, there's some more here nipping at the door - we've Lebanon just walked in on genocide bandwagon. Turn to your left and look - half of Africa, thankfully not too heavily armed but you'll notice that many North Africans are appearing in Al-Qeeda terrorist cells...

The reason Iraq is a target is because they are the perfect opportunity to demonstrate to their more problematical neighbours what 'messing with America' will lead too. Iraq is nothing more than an example to other Arab nations. It was also a good political vehicle for America to further it's aims of underminning the UN and the EU, which is a long term American aim.

The facts are fairly obvious, when you get your face out of Bush'es arse and look at them. Really, the official justification for war on Iraq would have lead to other countries being attacked first, Iraq would likely not even feature in the top 10 list of nations to fullfill the criterea for which we have officially invaded them. Therefor the official reason is propaganda, and we must look for the truth amongst the smog.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
actarus
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 15:41 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 15:45
Let me put this straight...

Who said the US would stop there?

EDIT:Sorry I couldn't resist posting my favorite quote:

But humans won't stop there,they'll build bigger boards with bigger nails and soon they'll build a board with a nail so big it,ll destroy them all!

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 16:26
I really don't think I am going to change anyones mind about how they feel about this. And no one here is going to change my mind. So don't bother.
I think most understand my position. I suppose some will try to twist it with sorry little quotes and then their take on it.
I am sorry about it but I have good friends over there and I get really pissed when some of you think your the morals of the world and spit out drools of advice and so called wisdom. I would do anything to support our troops and others who have joined us. I heard a few mention history, I think they need to read it better. As for not engaging in the meat of it, I don't chew on fat.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
actarus
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 17:18
-I would do anything to support our troops and others who have joined us

I'd join the US army if I could...really,in fact,it's wrong to believe that Canadians soldiers aren't present.

5 native Americans(or Amerindians if you prefer) are presently in Irak fighting side to side with our American allies on a voluntary basis(not to confuse with the 30 something exchange program soldiers also present)...

BTW:Canada is very wrong not to support the US and hat's what reminds me that Quebecers are very different than the rest of Canadians

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
haggisman
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 17:38
Quote: "Are we throwing cruise missiles into Pakistan? No we are not, and yet they pose a far more significant thread."


TBH Pakistan isn't likely to use nuclear weapons, or any other weapons of mass destruction purely because they are mutually assured destruction from retaliation by India...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 17:38
Sure i want a lil Raven, maybe a lil Ravenette too (^_^) ... however for me it'll be with someone i love and care about, not just about parking my lil Raven into the nearest available slot.
Nor will i be going for a record of like 62 kids in a single litter, i'll leave that upto animals made to making that many kids

i mean accidents may happen aside from the protection used, and if that does happen i'm not gonna go off and be with others and be like "oh well it was an accident, not my problem."
that kid would be my responsibility ... not a popular veiw on things, and is something alot of guys say just to sound all big and such.

But a while back i was willing to take care of a kid that my girl had even though it wasn't mine - she lost it, which was a mixxed bag of emotions. However if it'd been born i'd of done everything i could to support them.
And i know far to many guys who had been in similar positions to myself who'd just run ... and i had a feeling thats what everyone was expecting of me too.

sickening when everyone has such a low opinion of you when they don't even damn'd well know you eh.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Morales
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 18:00
what you should do is move out of the US! but if you wont to stay the go for it
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 19:50
TBH Pakistan isn't likely to use nuclear weapons, or any other weapons of mass destruction purely because they are mutually assured destruction from retaliation by India...

Bush/Blair have stated many times that they aint too frightened about Iraq firing WMD's. What they say they worried about is Iraq supplying WMD's to islamic terrorists.
Pakistan has LOTS of islamic terror groups in its country. Most of these groups are fighting in Kasmir so Pakistan (unnoficaly) supports them. If an islamic terror group gets a nuke then Pakistan, imho, ius where they'll get it from.
Arrow
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 20:02 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 20:05
Quote: "I'd join the US army if I could...really,in fact,it's wrong to believe that Canadians soldiers aren't present.

BTW:Canada is very wrong not to support the US and hat's what reminds me that Quebecers are very different than the rest of Canadians "

Considering the last time they fought as our allies we killed about 16 of there troops, I think they'll pass on this one.

Quote: "what you should do is move out of the US! but if you wont to stay the go for it"

I'll learning a second language now for that very porpose.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 20:25 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 20:44
Hey I have a special porpose too - no wait thats special purpose--DangYankee Doodle Dork --LOL-- We could call a truce here. Besides name calling is not your forte.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
heartbone
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 21:25
I support our troops.
Having Chickenhaws in the Whitehouse is not helpful.

I have more military service than both chief executives combined
and I say, BRING OUR PAWNS HOME.

Life is not a game.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
The Communist
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 21:26
Syrinth:
Hey Comunist, I think I will be a bolshevic no other party is really my kinda thing! Yer and I want to unite our workers and stuff so long as we keep freedom and order and alow people to practise their own socalism!

Yer Comunism is kinda cool! Great! Hey and the only thing we have got to loose is our chains right! Good!

Comunist how would you like to join my pro-Bolshevik game design team Sonnenrad?


LOL, your fun...

bolsjevism is too violent for me.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
haggisman
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 21:43
Quote: "Pakistan has LOTS of islamic terror groups in its country. Most of these groups are fighting in Kasmir so Pakistan (unnoficaly) supports them. If an islamic terror group gets a nuke then Pakistan, imho, ius where they'll get it from."


My point still remains, Pakistan will not use or provide other parties to use their WMD without being anhilated themselves...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:05
that doesn't mean they won't haggisman ... i think today actually exemplified that particular point

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:13
Even if a terrorist group got a hold of a nuke, there are safe guards built in to the design. You can't just blow it up or lite a fuse. Not saying it wouldn't be a really bad thing and the threat would probally do more damage. Luckily most terrorist are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:51
From what I have read making a nuclear explosion isn't that complicated.
Basicaly you need a big sphere of enriched plutonium, a barrel pointing at the sphere and a small sphere of enriched plutonium at the other end of the barrel. You then have an explosive charge that fires the small sphere down the barrel into the big sphere - kaboom!
The size of the big sphere, the size of the small sphere, the power of the explosive charge, the length of the barrel have to be very accurate - so you need a good mathematician.
But enriching plutonium is very complex, requires lots of special equipment, lots of money, and lots of experts.
DangYankee
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 23:25 Edited at: 26th Mar 2003 23:26
The outer sphere has to be ignited inward at the same time from all areas as to compress the nuclear material to go to critical mass there is no barrel that I know of. I used to work around nukes but that was long awhile ago.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
heartbone
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 00:26 Edited at: 27th Mar 2003 00:27
One last post for this thread.

The Official Version Of 9/11 Is A Hoax
Commentary By John Kaminski skylax@comcast.net
March 23, 2003
http://www.gooff.com/NM/templates/Breaking_News.asp?articleid=492&zoneid=2

Citizen John says it all for me and you.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 00:31
the barrel/sphere/little sphere method is the easiest way (so i have read). The method you described gives better results and is how modern nukes are made. These two methods have proper names(i can't remember exactly what). I think (only think) that the method i said was how the nukes dropped on the japs were made.
I no expert in these matters I just going off stuff I have read.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 01:23
You can download or view instruction on how to make a nuclear weapon on the internet, that's the easy part. The hard part is getting the raw materials, however, even Saddam can smuggle such small materials out of his counry and give them to a terrorist team for assembly - should he have such materials that is.

Remember when you look at a nuclear missile you are looking at the delivery mechanism, those things fly out of the atmosphere, they're rockets that orbit and drop back down - that's why they are so large.

An actuall nuclear bomb constructed of modern materials can be made the size of a tea cup, using readily available Russian weapons grade material or 'red mercury' you could build a bomb that size powerful enough to level London.

Now can we attack Pakistan under the same agenda please? Or maybe this whole thing is a load of political underwear.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
actarus
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 01:50
Irak has got it's hands on high technology(duh!),they get it on the black market from Russia.

That's the only way they could've taken out those 2 Abrams last night.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
empty
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 02:13
I wouldn't call wire guided missiles hi-tech.

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 02:57
wire guided? ... i didn't know you could shoot harpoon guns that far (j|k)

a nuclear warhead is a little more complex than you could imagine - infact to get a balanced nuclear reaction there are a few things you need to sort out first... its not like you can just buy the peices at B&Q or your nearest Hardware Store - slot it together like lego and add a plutonium 243 core (weapons grade plutonium, different weight to standard plutonium within heavy water)
i mean the effect is the same however you can't then use a uranium atom with standard plutonium ... you need to use a Illium? atom which is like 1/8th lighter.

Process is the same, you use a 'barrel' (heinemberg accelerator) as it were to speed up the atoms .. and you require atleast 12 running in perfect sync - using lead to control the reaction directions you then shot them in the patern which will create an tetrehedron input. It'll cause the initial shockwave (which is the point at which you lever all the lead out and then allow hydrogen atoms to react... if you wanted a hyrdogen enhanced weapon) ... if the reaction is not in the right pattern then the energy released althought will be great, may not be enough to actually cause the chain reaction for the explosion. As all the atoms must enter from the same point it takes alot of work to make them work in sync - and you can still deadlock the chain reaction by smothering the reaction chamber in uranium as it will stop the reaction dead by causing an inward density of the same mass (effectively cancelling it out and releasing a substance called Anti-Matter)
the core is also an important part withing the equasion because of the structure of its inner and outer lining.

i mean when you understand the basic principals behind the nuclear fusion reaction it is pretty simple to reproduce given the materials. However the principals behind nuclear fusion and fission aren't exactly what most people will learn ... infact it is likely that without having a Doctrane on the subject you'll not fully understand the subject (^_^)
as i'm sure almost everyone here doesn't - in laymans terms its about shifting the balance of the atoms so that the energy caused from the initial split is enough to ignite a chain reaction, kinda like making sure there is enough gas on a stove before you use a match to light it
once its lit, it just a case of letting cascade effects take over and lots ot damage.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
DangYankee
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 05:22 Edited at: 27th Mar 2003 05:35
as to compress the nuclear material to go to critical mass , I was trying to be brief. lol

BTW heartbone -- your starting to scare me. I did check out your links and believe me you are entitled to your opinions but maybe you could or maybe explain 9/11 in your own words how 9/11 was a hoax, I only skimmed it mind you.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
Arrow
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 07:10
Quote: "DangYankee Doodle Dork --LOL-- We could call a truce here. Besides name calling is not your forte."


Agreed, I was gonna say Dang Yankee Doodle Dork of a pig, (quoted for Hot Shot's part Duex) but I thimk that level of a pun would excape most people.

No govornment or terroist group would ever consider accully using a nuke. They are deterants only. The Start 3 treaty states that it's possible to launch a peremptive nuclear strike if the target poses enough of a worldwide threat.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
Danmatsuma
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 07:10
Heh, I wonder how well the Iraqui's'll do without hussein? Seems to me it's a pretty violent neigborhood over there, tougher than most westerners could possibly understand. Without a strong, violent dictator at the helm, I reckon they'd be overun in a matter of weeks by some of their neighbors..
Imagine a country like that run by a beurocratic democracy, yet surrounded by hungry wolves!!

Funny to see how people think that the logic they take for granted somehow applies to a completely different environment. It's like, you could be the most brilliant financial strategist or lawyer, a genius in your field, but put you in the middle of the kalihari desert with no mobile phone and a bag of grubs to eat, and you become a slobberring fool, the lowliest human there. The bushmen would mock you with their clicking tongues, and use you as an example of stupidity to teach their children.

It's a similar thing to describing a cat as 'vicious' when it attacks and mutilates a mouse or bird, or a pig as 'filthy' when it rolls in the mud. Surely this must be a result of the idea that we are all somehow 'better than animals' and in a class of our own. Can't agree with that view, to me it seems that we are all still very much animals, and incredibly egotistic as a race.

Put simply, until someone comes into my house with a gun, I don't have a problem with what's going on. The strong will always prey on the the weak, it's the law of nature, and we are animals. only thing that offends me is that it's an insult to the intelligence to be expected to believe that any of this war is going on for 'humanitarian' reasons

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Arrow
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 07:22
Quote: "The Official Version Of 9/11 Is A Hoax
Commentary By John Kaminski skylax@comcast.net
March 23, 2003
http://www.gooff.com/NM/templates/Breaking_News.asp?articleid=492&zoneid=2"


Is it just me or is this whole senario starting to sound like Metal Gear Solid?

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
Glennyboy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 10:38
Quote: "Glennyboy, I suspect you have drugs on you and you may have killed someone, is that suspition enogh to haul you off to jail? Can't you see that statement is want Saddam has been doing for the last 15 years?"


Good grief. It's like wading through treacle.

1) No, it's not suspicion enough to haul me off to jail, because, you know, you don't really suspect I have drugs and may have killed someone. How can you suspect something without any evidence whatsoever? It's called a guess, not a suspicion. And, to head off the obvious answer, we don't have all the facts, and we don't know exactly what evidence the US and UK have. Nevertheless, there's also the simple facts of the matter: Saddam has something of a history with being a bit of a nasty bloke when he's got weapons. I don't have a history of, you know, drugs and killing people. There's your starting point right there.

2) I never said the reasons for invading for watertight. I never even said they were good. But whether or not Saddam has WMD, it's frankly not a bad idea to get rid of him anyway, and that's why I don't think we should stop the war now that it's started. It should never have started, but now that it has, it's better to finish the job.

Glennyboy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 10:42
Quote: "no, only one. Kashmir"

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

I don't have all the facts on this one: did this occur under the same leadership as is currently ruling Pakistan? Is Pakistan a democracy? Is Pakistan hostile to the western world?

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 11:09
Arrow - "No govornment or terroist group would ever consider accully using a nuke."

That comment is a good 50years too late, plus there are plenty of countries believeing that these weapons will give them superiority. You'd be surprised how stupid people can be.

Heartbone that was a bloody interesting read, the one fact myself and the girls here could totally agree on is that the pencylvania flight was definatly shot down - the evidence was pretty bloody hard to see past. Plus the Pentagon accident, from what i remember i remembered wondering why the lawn was neatly mowed as an aircraft had just skid around in the front lawn into the building side (even hitting it would have caused it to slide backward quite a way and be relatively intact)

certainly a good few things to look up - however Hoax in the wrong word, i'd of used 9/11 Subverge. And its scarey how that story fits better than the one the government ever came up with ... always throwing interest elsewhere (notice what has been going on since they wanted ya'll to goto war? with the gas prices and such?)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 12:21
I don't think we should stop the war now that it's started. It should never have started, but now that it has, it's better to finish the job.

On this point I gotta agree with you glennyboy. If we stop or even go for a half hearted measure like dividing the country like we did to end Korean War, then Hussein would become to the Middle-East what Pele is to Brazil.
Glennyboy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 15:19
Wow, there's so much wrong with that "hoax" article, it's hard to know where to begin. But having said that, there are a few unanswered questions. I never did understand how those passenger airlines weren't stopped sooner.

But just to skip over a few irregularities in the article:

If the article postulates that the WTC incident was perpetrated by the US government:

-Why the big fuss about the plane in Pennsylvania being shot down? I have no doubt that it was, but if this was perpetrated by the US government, why shoot it down? Why not let it finish it's mission? Answer: To make it look like the US goverment made a genuine attempt to stop this from happening. My response: You can't take one set of facts, make them fit an argument, and then say the remaining facts that don't fit aren't supposed to fit. That proves nothing, and is merely speculation.
-If this was perpetrated by the US government... why didn't a plane hit the Pentagon? I admit, the pictures of it didn't look like a plane had hit it, but then I the only other buildings I've seen that have been hit by planes were the WTC buildings, and they just looked like they were on fire, too. But why must the plane have made a mark on the grass if it didn't hit the grass? And how do any of us know if the plane would recoil back onto the grass from the impact? I didn't see that happen with the WTC, the planes just plowed in and disappeared, sending out a few flakes of wreckage. Ooh, kinda like what was on the Pentagon lawn.
-What is that about the French film crew capturing the incident? The plane didn't appear to be a passenger airliner? So, what's that saying, exactly? That at least one of the planes didn't have passengers, despite the many grieving relatives we've heard from? Or is it saying that the video is a fake? Why make a fake video? Even if it's fake, it still doesn't explain why the wrong plane is there. And frankly, in the footage I've seen there's no reason to question if the aircraft were passenger airliners.

The article is full of half-concieved pot-shots at every little aspect of the WTC incident, with no sources cited and a lot of assumptions being made. Sure, there's questions that need answers, but there's also a lot of bullcrap that doesn't deserve the bandwidth it gets. If someone's gonna write an article about the WTC incident, I'd like them to not insult my intelligence and at least put some hard facts in there, not circumstantial evidence linked by assumptions.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:03
yes there is alot of congesture he has taken into account with wild assumptions (the downfall of many) ... however, something you can'y screw with is physics.

And there are 2 ways planes crash, one way would've taken almost half of the Pentagon with it in a fireball which would've caused ALOT more damage than what happend.

the second way would have been that it hit the building straight on and the fuel reserves (by some mirical) didn't ignite... then explain to me what the first thing you learn in physics?
For every action there is an equal and opposite REACTION, although the aircraft is capable of minimising this with its design - there would still have been ALOT more damage on the pentagon lawn.

i mean you can trick the camera and people, but you can't trick physics i'm afriad - this isn't assumption, most good 3D Programs will be able to actively recreate this ... and you'll see for yourself what should have happened. Infact i'm more worried at how the aircraft could have been torn apart like that without an explosion - but if there had been an explosion how come nothing was burnt?
The only explaination i can come up with is that the plane was rerigged and rebuilt specifically to cause as little damage as possible... plus explode on impact, i mean i'll try to find a picture of it but the bloody think looks like a popped balloon!

now all i can think is that either America is DANGEROUSLY protected by an incompetant and fatally neglagent defence agency ... plus why did it take fighters from a nearby base so long to scamble?
why did they follow that pencylvania flight and shoot it down after the passengers supposidely took over - although if you remember it crashed due to the struggle onboard (or so we were told!) ... on the point of the mobile conversaion, there is no way to tell if the guy was actually on his cell or on the airphone, nor how high the aircraft was from the ground - but for an 8mile spread it would have had to have exploded roughly 15,000ft at its standard flight speed of 260mph. (too high for cell phone signals)

even if he has got alot of half-baked facts in there, doesn't stop there being some truely valid questions posed

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
The Communist
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:07
GlennyBoy:
I don't have all the facts on this one: did this occur under the same leadership as is currently ruling Pakistan?

it is happening as we speak.

Is Pakistan a democracy?

nope, military dictature

Is Pakistan hostile to the western world?

hmm... no, not really.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
Glennyboy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:18
Quote: "hmm... no, not really."

There's your answer, then.

Like I said, self-preservation.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:35
remember pakistan has alot of Al'Quida members (i can't remember the actual name they have there, sheiat?)... but it is half the government, so i wouldn't say they're hostile - but then again don't put it past them because they're known for thier terrorist like tactics to gain land and hold it.
But this is only to india really, this arugment is a good century old and it certainly is just escallating because of the current nuclear technologu tensions.

its even worse because its own government is constantly fighting amonst itself, kinda like a split personality person - one half is a benine person who's easy to get on with and the other is scheming and vendictive person!
and depend on who has the game face at the time depends on how a situation must be handled.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
The Communist
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:43
hey, i just read this (most of you probable tried this already, but anyway):

start word/wordpad or something like that
write Q33NY (Q33 is the number of the first plane that crashed into WTC), NY is ofcourse for NY

change the font to Wingdings... scary huh?

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
The Communist
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:45
GlennyBoy:
Like I said, self-preservation.

maybe. but that proves that there is no interest in bringing democracy to Iraq.

Arise ye workers from your slumbers, Arise ye prisoners of want, For reason in revolt now thunders, And at last ends the age of cant!

Workers of all lands, Unite!
DangYankee
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:49 Edited at: 27th Mar 2003 17:26
On the 9/11 article, I am not going to dissect it, too exhausting for me. But it does remind me about the other conspiracy theories.
-- Remember the moon walk was faked.
-- Aliens are running our government-That would explain a lot!
-- The holocaust never happened.
-- JFK killing , this acually has numerous theories, notability , multiple shooters, that Castro put a hit on him etc...
-- the list goes on forever.
There are many websites on conspiracy theories.
No real point here I am just amused by it all.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
Glennyboy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 16:51
Quote: "the second way would have been that it hit the building straight on and the fuel reserves (by some mirical) didn't ignite..."

I have no figures on exploding planes, and the area of effect/force of a fuel explosion, but I don't find it unreasonable to assume the fuel may have exploded. The Pentagon is big, remember, and it did take a significant amount of damage. And who knows how much was left on the plane?

Quote: "
then explain to me what the first thing you learn in physics?
For every action there is an equal and opposite REACTION, although the aircraft is capable of minimising this with its design - there would still have been ALOT more damage on the pentagon lawn."

So, what, are you saying there should have been more wreckage on the pentagon lawn because the equally opposite reaction for the crash is wreckage flying in the opposite direction? No, just because the force has to travel somewhere, it doesn't mean the majority of it would be backwards.

I also don't know much about plane crashes, but I do understand the properties of materials. The plane strikes the pentagon, pieces of debris are thrown into the pentagon, because that's the direction the plane was travelling in. They would plough through the building or become embedded in the structure. The equal and opposite reaction reaction here is seen in the structure itself. It absorbs the impact of debris and bends into a different shape, and breaks.

An equal and opposite reaction does not automatically mean an elastic reaction. It just refers to materials reacting to impacts.

I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong, but this here is a plausible reason for there not being much debris on the lawn: most of it's in the Pentagon. This isn't enough to shout "conspiracy", it's perfectly feasible that the incident at the Pentagon unfolded exactly "as advertised".

I agree there's lots on unanswered questions, but that doesn't add up to a conspiracy. Right now, I could give reasons of negligence as to why fighters weren't scrambled: confirmation was too slow in coming through the chain of command, for example. The pilots wanted to launch, their CO told them to wait for the official word.

Why was the flight shot down if the passengers had taken over?
1) We don't know for sure it was shot down.
2) Assuming it was, and that the passengers had indeed taken over (rather than just initiated a struggle) the plane's course had presumeably not altered for one reason or another, and was percieved to still be a threat. Why else shoot it down?

Lots of questions indeed, but there's as many plausbile explanations as there are implausbile ones, and yet some stupid people create their own fantasies about what happened, and call the list of questions "facts".

Even when he states that steel does not melt at the temperature of burning fuel, he's missing the point. Factually, that's probably quite correct, but I wonder what temperature steel begins to get softer at? The weight of the buildings would make them collapse long before the steel got as far as actually becoming liquid. A slight softness would probably be all that's needed.

Like I said, full of bull. There's nothing wrong with presenting a list of unanswered questions, but there's plenty wrong with calling for the arrest of the president on the grounds of "evidence" that's merely a list of unanswered questions, assumptions, and misunderstood facts.

actarus
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 17:40 Edited at: 27th Mar 2003 17:41
I've know alot of people from normal to total weirdo(not on the net btw) and 95% of those I know that believed those so-called 'conspiracies-theories' had racist/antisemite tendencies...In fact,the 'Turner Diaries' has also done alot of trouble to fragile minds(just think of Tim Mcveigh).

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
haggisman
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 18:05
Some debunking sites...

http://paulboutin.weblogger.com/2002/03/14

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

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DangYankee
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 18:14
haggisman- I liked the blflight77 page , I am very much a fan of Carl Sagan.

So to blatantly plagiarize from that article:
To quote the late Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!

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