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Work in Progress / Pirates of Port Royale: New Thread

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 20:53
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Quote: "Honestly, no one has anything on Gil considering the amount of work and functionality he has in his game.

I've been watching your progress since the beginning and don't mind the wait for something of quality.

As for your Harry Potter MUD, I can't get enough of it.

Keep up the great work."

Thanks .

Quote: "Gil, young man, get back to work on this right now after you've completed HP Online for 95%.

Naah, just kidding there, take your time. I love both projects "

Haha, thanks.

Quote: "I have problems with motivation too.. My suggestion is to work some amount of the game and then reward yourself.

In example when I've got core part of my engine done i will buy OpenPandora console where i will port my game btw too "

Haha, yeah, sometimes I force myself to work on it before doing something more fun .

Quote: "I understand the motivation part in large projects, I suffer from it regularly. It especially occurs when I run into an indecipherable bug in a 3rd party plugin."

Yes, bugs can be incredibly frustrating .

Quote: "What I've found that helps for me (a little) is to make two checklists, a long-term one and a short-term one. Sometimes the desire to "check something off" the short-term list defeats my desire to go play a game or watch TV, and that something ends up getting done. Long-term list lets me know what is left (which is usually a lot!)

Good luck and hope you find some motivation soon!"

Yeah, thanks, doing that with HP Online has helped me stay organized and get a lot done on it, so I'll have to try that with PoPR, because up till now I've been doing only long-term, big goals .

I plan on devoting an entire day this weekend to working on PoPR, so hopefully I'll carry through .


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mike5424
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Posted: 13th Jul 2009 23:36 Edited at: 13th Jul 2009 23:38
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You should put this game into closed beta (like atmosphir and that other game that i don't know what it is (0_o) ).

P.S. ()()
----(0_0)
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----()() this strange bunny has a gun and he has to play this game soon (what i mean: --> )

www.madninjas.co.nr we are mad and we are ninjas
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Brick Break
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Posted: 14th Jul 2009 00:45
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No! No! Not closed beta! We want open beta!

WINNER list:
Latch, Lee Bamber, TDK
Thanks for the help!
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 14th Jul 2009 03:48
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People I don't know if your aware of this but, Gil is one of the few people here to have that something called a 'life' and he gets quite busy with his 'life' it takes a lot of time. So Gil will code this and beta it, when it suits his 'life.'


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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 07:35 Edited at: 19th Jul 2009 07:36
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Hello fine people of The Game Creators and followers of this thread!

I have a decision to make. Firstly, let me explain my dilemma...

Pirates of Port Royale has been the product of 5.5 years of engine rewrites, changes, and basically being my "guinea pig" of learning to develop games in DBP. This means that it is incredibly inconsistent and messy code-wise, with pieces of code I wrote 4 years ago (when I was learning as I went) mixed with code I wrote last month (where I knew much more of what I was doing and how to do it efficiently). I am starting to doubt that the engine as I have it can be taken to a scale larger than a small island with a couple quests (and even then, it might be difficult to get playable). I opened up and ran the .exe with the test map you see in the most recent videos, and found so many bugs I lost count, and realized how messy and inefficient my coding was. It's like I can see the finish line, but there is a solid brick wall standing between where I am now and the end.

So...I am considering a complete PoPR engine and world editor restructuring and rewrite to improve performance, scalability, efficiency, cleanliness of the game as a whole. *Raises pitchfork and torch shield*. This rewrite would mostly be technical with internal improvements to decrease chances of bugs and improve game efficiency and coding consistency, but it would also have some gameplay and graphical changes such as:
-Improved Water Effects
-Advanced Terrain
-UI Improvements and Changes (In the WE and Engine)
-Cleaner Interface and Game Mechanics
-Some Improved Textures/Models
-Improved Game Performance
-More User-Friendly World Editor
-Better and More Advanced Combat Mechanics
-Improved AI
-New and/or Improved More Dynamic Talk System
-More Scripting Options
-Consistent Scripting Structure

Of course, an engine and world editor rewrite would mean it will be even more delayed than it already has been. On the other hand, it might improve my motivation because I won't feel like I'm "wading through mud" every time I try to work on the project. So...if I go through with this, will you all kill me?


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Brick Break
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 07:59
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*Raises rifle* Gil, you don't know what you're doing. Let's go through this rationally... You can structure your code to make it easier, but do not, DO NOT do a complete rewrite!

WINNER list:
Latch, Lee Bamber, TDK
Thanks for the help!
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 08:03
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I believe that, ultimately, this is the best move you can make at this point. A chance to rebuild and refine the engine should motivate you enough for this to come back to the forefront of your mind, and it could also give you an opportunity to add in new game play mechanics while enhancing or rethinking the ones you already have. And not to mention the visual boost that advanced terrain and better water will provide.

Overall, the engine rewrite will just help to make the game better, even if it does cause a huge delay.

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Azunaki
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 08:15
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hmmm... i think a rewrite would be an easier path for you gil.

....prepare to see about 50+ angry posts from people *hides in bomb shelter*
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tiresius
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 08:16
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If the state of the code makes you not want to work on the project, then perhaps a rewrite is in order. Bedroom coder projects are supposed to be fun, after all.

But it would be sad if another large project got a reboot. There just aren't that many around.

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
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feiting shadow
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 08:38
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Take a look at my space shooter tutorial. Do you know where I learned how to code that way? Hint, it begins with RPG and is about programming.

lol. That book's like 3 dollars now on amazon for the first ed. It's in C++ but the concepts are the same for DB. I myself have been thinking about writing an RPG engine... I just don't have the inspiration I used to with flight sims. But stories are quite fun.

I've been sitting around for a couple hours today trying to think of what to do with my space engine, it's quite a bummer really.

Signed
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Brick Break
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 09:12
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Structure the code so you can fix the bugs, then do the bug-fixing. Once the bugs are fixed, release the demo. *Raises flame shield*

WINNER list:
Latch, Lee Bamber, TDK
Thanks for the help!
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jason p sage
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 10:26
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Gil,

My opinion is that you don't rewrite this whole game and just plan for a version 2.

If the game gets to "Heavy" to add to much more, try making the saved "files" and "data" such that you can write a menu program that manages "the game" as a whole, and then it chains/launches the actual "GAME ENGINE" with the correct level the user is on etc. This way your engine loads one land, does its thing, and when someone portals fro one "big area" to another, you get a clean "launch" of DBPro and your program again - freeing up resources nicely etc.

Planning for version 2, as your "I can do this so much better now" project is what I recommend PLUS it gets your game in the hands of people MUCH sooner. If you make version 2 REMOTELY compatible - even a "data converter" as part of the upgrading process (so effort in Version 1 can be carried over to version 2) all the better!

It's your call.. definately. But you said you have a dilema - so I chimed up to give you my thoughts. I'm definately routing for you!

--Jason

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Mireben
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 12:16
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If you feel that there is absolutely no chance to finish the game with the current code base, then rewrite it. I'm sorry for further delay but you know best what needs to be done.

Please consider the possibility of releasing what is already done, as version 1 or as a demo. Although, I also understand if you don't want to release something you are not happy with.
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Blobby 101
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 13:18
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I think you should re-write it Gil, I think i speak for most of the fans of this project when i say, We've waited ages already, we can wait a bit longer.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 13:33
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I remember how this started out and it has remained a good project for a long time and sometimes a dream takes a lot of work and time, My advice, don't get into the habit of rewrites as I have done. But I can see why you're doing this, you will have a much better way of seeing things now that you have learned a lot along the road. But it's not as if you're working from scratch. You have the media there, all ready and built, you have a vast code base of your current work - it just means rewriting it as you go along to fit in with your new methods.

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 15:25
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I know how you feel Gil. I've rewrote countless projects because of the code structure and sloppiness. If you can't look at your code and be happy, then it's hard to continue a project, regardless if it works or not.

The decision is all yours, but if your looking for an honest opinion, I say if it's giving you that much trouble to continue work a rewrite is the best course of action.

Good luck.


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=151107&b=8&p=0
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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 22:27
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Well, I seem to remember you've gotten much better at programming lately, so I think it wouldn't hurt to consider a real rewrite.

I'm not certain its the best course, that I leave up to you.


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Profit
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 23:11
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Maybe one of you can help me:
what's "programming"?
what's an "engine"?


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Jimpo
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 23:30
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I'm very glad to hear you are rewriting PoPR! In the earlier version I tested, everything felt so clunky and awkward. Everything worked, it just didn't work well. Some of it clearly felt like 4 year old code where you were still learning how to handle some features.

Doing a rewrite will probably speed up production. I know from personal experience that trying to add some new code to a beginner project is painfully slow.

Quote: "-Cleaner Interface and Game Mechanics
-New and/or Improved More Dynamic Talk System"

Glad to see those two at the top of your to-do list

Definitely do the rewrite and show us what all your experience was for! If you replace all the clunky old code with more experienced work, you'll have a DB masterpiece on your hands.

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 01:21
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Well, although I wish there was an easy option which was all "pros" and no "cons", I think a rewrite would be best. Although it would take some time, it would make work after the rewrite considerably easier and quicker (so it's not just a case of "rewrite = waste time") and the final product basically more robust. I don't think you should do a complete rewrite: if there's code you wrote a month or a year ago which is basically okay then you could leave that a get on with the really murky 4-year-old stuff.

Quote: "Maybe one of you can help me:
what's "programming"?
what's an "engine"?"

I'm not quite sure why you've posted those questions in this thread, or if you're being sarcastic but I'll have a go at answering them anyway.

"Programming" is writing code in a programming language. Basically, you're writing a series of instructions for the computer to follow. When you compile and run the code, you have a program.

An "Engine" is a series of instructions which lay down the groundrules for a game or simulation. For example: the engine for a FPS would take into account the player's health, number of bullets, what keys are pressed etc. and would manage the game's gravity, movement, AI and so on. An engine for an RTS would manage the player's orders to troops, pathfinding for units, AI, maybe an economy etc.

Most things which are not the "engine" of a game are the game's "assets". So models, music files, sounds, textures etc. are all the game's assets. So you could say that the game's engine is a load of code which causes the assets to react with each other (and the player's actions) in the way the programmer devised. This means that you can change the game's assets but keep the engine, so, for example, you could take your FPS engine, take out the original assets and replace them with different ones, and you'd have a different game, but one which had the same "feel" as the first.

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Profit
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 17:27
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I apologize if this was not the correct place to ask the questions.

I just notice many people use these words and wanted to find out what they meant.

This whole idea of an 'engine' kind of threw me off.. I think of an 'engine' as something that will run a piece of machinery.

Thank you Darth Kiwi.. I think I understand what an 'engine' (in darkbasic) is now.


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jason p sage
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 18:58
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Gil has written a good engine for his game as far as we can all tell... It looks great... it is a machine. All the parts are in place, fastened, tested and when you start it - it "works" as designed. You can change the data and graphics around - but if you follow the "design" of the engine - his "game engine" will render the land, inventory, badguys, quests you throw at it...

The term is used loosely in this field.. DarkGDK and DarkBASIC might be called engines... Gil's Port Royale "game inards" could be as well.

The good news is Gil has been refining his and it sounds like he's ready for another "push" - e.g. he's asking people for help making a major decision that has huge consequences either way... This makes me think he is cocked and ready to fire out code like a mad man soon! He is looking to aim his energy carefully it seems...

I recognize these dilemas well as all of us coders do... I'm actually envious that he is able to get any game coding in - I'm doing al business stuff lately - and I like it but it's not NEARLY as "free form" and creative as game making. It can be I supose - depends on client, requirements, "rules", platforms etc... but these are topics best left for another thread - a discussion I'd skip unless getting paid to partake LOL.

--Jason

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 23:55
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Ah, okay Profit - sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, it's just hard to tell what tone of voice people use over the internet. Glad I could help

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mike5424
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Posted: 21st Jul 2009 22:04
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If your not happy with your code then make yourself happy with it no matter what the cost. re-wright it, delete parts of it, rub some beans over your screen. just make yourself happy with it (that way you will finish it faster).

www.madninjas.co.nr we are mad and we are ninjas
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Plotinus
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2009 01:38
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I'd ask myself questions such as:

What will produce the best and most interesting results?
What will encourage me to actually produce something?
What will I most enjoy?

At the end of the day, we work on these projects (a) for fun, and (b) to produce something at the end. If keeping the old code does this better, do that. If scrapping much of it and rebuilding does it better, do that. That's all that counts. On the one hand, don't keep old code just because you can't bear to part with it. That's just sentimentality, and every creator has to learn the painful lesson of scrapping work to end up with a better creation. On the other hand, don't rewrite just for the sake of it. If it doesn't make the process more enjoyable or the end product better (and really, anything that contributes to one of these probably contributes to the other) then it's not worth it. If it does, it is.

That's probably not very helpful. But there you go!
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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2009 04:31
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Do the rewrite. It's a huge boost to motivation if you do it properly.
Plan it all out in advance though.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 26th Jul 2009 17:08
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Gil, I'm typing this on my iPhone sitting in a 747 flying over the Pacific with the biggest shotgun I could find in Australia. Get the hint?

Seriously though I think aa re-write is the best option. The way I see it you've got little motivation for PoPR, so re-writing will increase that. In your current engine and level creator (Which I've used and still have).
You've got most of your features already implemented, so re-writing them for the new engine and level creator would be slightly based on the previous version, meaning that it would probably be a faster process then 5 years.

Taking everything into account I think your fanbase is willing to wait. I prefer quality over a rushed product and I think it was great of you to ask us for our opinions! Thanks!

So go for it Gil and enjoy it!
Darth

PS We need to catch up some time on MSN!

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Roxas
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Posted: 26th Jul 2009 22:34
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Hey Gil, could you add me to MSN too? I have same kind of problems at times, and i really look forward for prober solution.

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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 26th Jul 2009 23:48
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I've had the pleasure to play an early (not as many features) release of PoPR, and i can only pray that he added physics to the cannon balls, because i loved that part ^_^. Well Gil, get on aim! Havent seen you in AGES.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 28th Jul 2009 00:34 Edited at: 28th Jul 2009 00:34
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Wow, lots of posts, thanks for the opinions and support . I've just got back from a week of vacation, so let me look through the responses...It seems that the majority of people are for a rewrite or restructure. Normally I respond to each post individually, but since there are so many and most of them are saying generally the same thing, I'll just respond to everyone as a whole:

The main concern of people seems to be that I'm going back to square 1, when, in reality, I'm not. In fact, I'm not even close. Pirates of Port Royale has been in development for 5.5 years, but that has included 4 or 5 rewrites, and that is counting from the very first line of code I wrote into the game (which was also one of the first lines of 3D code I ever wrote) until now. The newest version has been in development for about 3 or 4 years, but even that is not a fair indicator of how long it will take, because this time I will be a much better coder and be able to reuse code I've written. I won't be writing everything from scratch (and learning as I go), but a lot of it will be looking at and copying old code I've written and restructuring/reorganizing it. My guess is that it won't take more than a few months to get to where I am now with a rewrite, depending on how much I work on it. So anyways, I'll let you guys know how the new engine and world editor is going as I work on it, thanks for all the support!

Quote: "I think it was great of you to ask us for our opinions! Thanks!"

No problem, it's very helpful for all of you to give it .

Quote: "Hey Gil, could you add me to MSN too? I have same kind of problems at times, and i really look forward for prober solution."

Sure, add me at gamedev06 at hotmail dot com.


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jason p sage
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Posted: 28th Jul 2009 01:06
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AND this is exactly why I love the forums here!

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mike5424
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Quote: "quote by wickedly kick it: I've had the pleasure to play an early (not as many features) release of PoPR"

aims a gun at wickedly kick it's head, give it to me

@gil what was that firt line?

i'll trade dark source for a demo of popr

www.madninjas.co.nr we are mad and we are ninjas
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 31st Jul 2009 06:03
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Quote: ""quote by wickedly kick it: I've had the pleasure to play an early (not as many features) release of PoPR"
aims a gun at wickedly kick it's head, give it to me"
I've played an alpha release (Same as above I think) version of the game and have used the map editor, which works really well! Once you understand how it all works the stuff you can create! Seriously I doodle with it now and again.

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mike5424
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Quote: "I've played an alpha release (Same as above I think) version of the game and have used the map editor, which works really well! Once you understand how it all works the stuff you can create! Seriously I doodle with it now and again."

i want it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

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Azunaki
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Posted: 1st Aug 2009 13:06
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lol quit torturing the poor soul
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 1st Aug 2009 18:43
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Quote: "lol quit torturing the poor soul "

Couldn't help it. Sorry.
lol

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 01:58 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2009 02:06
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Ok, so I've finally started the rework of Pirates of Port Royale today, and it's going well so far.

Part of this rework is making the components of it more "modular", so that they could be used in other projects, and easily separated to identify problems or interchange with other code. So far all I've done is camera and collision, but even something as simple as that I've put through pretty tough testing, making my own test level in 3DWS with various kinds of obstacles to test how well the collision responds to them.

Here's a couple pics of it, one from the first person view, one from the debugging view where the player is represented by the two collision spheres indicating and the box pointing at the direction he is looking:




So with this level I tested: going through doorways, ramps, stairs of different heights, floating bar that sphere 2 would collide with but not sphere 1, and a box that sphere 1 would collide with but not sphere 2, windows, low ceiling, crouching under something and then trying to stand up, jumping into a ceiling, and normal walls.

I reused a lot of the old code for collision from PoPR, but then modified it and cleaned it up until it passed all of the tests I put it through. I also added crouching, jumping, and x rotation restrictions.

So the camera and collision is pretty much done, not sure what I'll do next, whatever I feel like doing at the time .


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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 03:35
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Very nice gil

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Roxas
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 03:58
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Awesum work Gil!

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 16:43
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Really need to ask Gil, are you using Sparky's Collision DLL? If not now might be the time to look at implementing it. It seriously speeds up everything by at least 10x!

Looking pretty good!

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 18:57
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Quote: "Really need to ask Gil, are you using Sparky's Collision DLL? If not now might be the time to look at implementing it. It seriously speeds up everything by at least 10x!

Looking pretty good!"

Yup, already using Sparky's, and thanks .


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mike5424
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2009 21:09 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2009 21:55
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looking good!

EDIT: any chance we will get the old version

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Garion
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2009 16:32
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Looking... alive. Which is great
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Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 3rd Aug 2009 20:27
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You know what's sad? When you like a game so much, you even get excited by collision tests.

I like this game that much.



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Darth Vader
18
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Joined: 10th May 2005
Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 4th Aug 2009 08:13 Edited at: 4th Aug 2009 08:14
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Quote: "You know what's sad? When you like a game so much, you even get excited by collision tests.

I like this game that much."
That's not sad man, that's love.

Why is everyone staring at me like that?

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mike5424
15
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Posted: 4th Aug 2009 14:38
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5 more posts to 1000, actually 4 now.

madninjas.co.nr
mike5424.dragonadopters.com
http://www.blizzardpets.com/register.php?ref=mike5424
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Gingerkid Jack
18
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Joined: 15th May 2005
Location: UK
Posted: 4th Aug 2009 20:49
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looking fantastic! 3

TheCleverGuyz
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mike5424
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Posted: 4th Aug 2009 21:28
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i just can't wait it looks awesome!

2

madninjas.co.nr
mike5424.dragonadopters.com
http://www.blizzardpets.com/register.php?ref=mike5424
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Gingerkid Jack
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Joined: 15th May 2005
Location: UK
Posted: 4th Aug 2009 22:01
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Ok that's just silly!

1

TheCleverGuyz
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mike5424
15
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Posted: 4th Aug 2009 22:08 Edited at: 4th Aug 2009 22:10
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i win! 1000th post!

does this mean i get a demo of pirates of port royal?

madninjas.co.nr
mike5424.dragonadopters.com
http://www.blizzardpets.com/register.php?ref=mike5424
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