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Work in Progress / Vision

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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 11:26 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 17:45
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Version 0.06 (11/03 build)

This update includes the following:
1. Completion of the training centre
2. Teleporters
3. Buttons that activate sliding platforms.

As usual, Vision can be downloaded from here:
Vision 0.06.zip

Screenshot:

A screenshot of the end of the training centre. (Amazing isn't it?)

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 20:48
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It's time for some nitpicking.

First of all, I really really like the final parts of the training center. However, there are some things that I'm not so keen on:

First of all, the crates. They're not really very crate like; I think they're a little too light. They're just heavy enough to be difficult to push up a ramp, but just light enough to be really difficult to position accurately.

And secondly, the textures. I agree with the 'Minimalistic' feel, but they almost seem a bit too simplistic. They're not really detailed enough to interest.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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Dr Manette
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 21:18 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 21:20
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I'll check out the newest demo, it's becoming an exciting project.

As for the collision, you could do something like this.



For reference, OX#, OY#, OZ# are the starting points and x#,y#,z# are the end points for the ray. What I would do is store those variables before movement(OX# ect) and then after movement store the other set. This should work for you... it's the same function I use, but I haven't tested it for your situation. You might have to change some things.


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 21:33
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@ Insert Name Here
The boxes can't ever be hard or easy to push because the player simply pushes them at a constant speed, regardless of their weight. The player's collision is done with Sparky's DLL so to make sure physical objects reacted to it, I just placed a kinematic sphere at it. Thus making any physical reaction to the player non existant.

The textures are also a lot better than they were. What would you do to improve them? They have the detail they require, and they aren't supposed to be interesting, the level elements are. (Thats howcome most of them are cartoon shaded.)
An example of what I mean would be, my bedroom. It has plain white walls, but is not an uninteresting room, this is because it has entities and objects in it, which draw your eyes to them, rather than, a wall. (And honestly, a wall does nothing more than keep the player in the level and hold the building up, so why should it look interesting?)

@ Dr Manette
GLaD to hear people still feel this project has prospects.

The collision is done like that, just the other way round, to save processing time; mainly because there are so many more enemies than there are atraction spheres (1). So to keep the program running quickly I chose to compare any drones that collide with the collision sphere, not the collision sphere with "a" drone.

But nevertheless, if you think that will run just as quick then I'll have a go at implementing it. (I presume I just run the collision check against every drone in any level?)



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White Fang 12
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 21:43
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This is getting better and better i still think there is something off about the crates and still think there needs to be up and down aiming but rome wasn't built in a day or doom doom wasn't built in a day either and nor was your game aready i think i'll shut up now

I'm a noob help will be accepted
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Dr Manette
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 21:51
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Quote: "GLaD to hear people still feel this project has prospects."


It certainly does, and haha...

The way I do it won't be as fast, but from what I can tell it doesn't take a whole lot away from frame rate. But that depends how many objects you're checking, I suppose. To cut down, you could check sections of drones each loop. That might cause some problems...


Quote: "I presume I just run the collision check against every drone in any level"


Yepp. =)


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 22:02
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Quote: "The boxes can't ever be hard or easy to push because the player simply pushes them at a constant speed, regardless of their weight. The player's collision is done with Sparky's DLL so to make sure physical objects reacted to it, I just placed a kinematic sphere at it. Thus making any physical reaction to the player non existant."

I don't know what I'm doing wrong then. Perhaps they should have more friction. It's justs that, pushing them up ramps they slide from side to side and therefore often back down, and on the challenge where you stack them to jump up to the higher platform (What was the penultimate in 5) they seemed to fall down, bounce and slip off.

Quote: "The textures are also a lot better than they were. What would you do to improve them? They have the detail they require, and they aren't supposed to be interesting, the level elements are. (Thats howcome most of them are cartoon shaded.)
An example of what I mean would be, my bedroom. It has plain white walls, but is not an uninteresting room, this is because it has entities and objects in it, which draw your eyes to them, rather than, a wall. (And honestly, a wall does nothing more than keep the player in the level and hold the building up, so why should it look interesting?)"

I don't really know, it's just they don't really seem to fit with the atmosphere; you've got a lot of greys and oranges, I think whites and greens might fit better; it looks a bit dingy and not really very clean, and I notice some textures have random plastic wraps on them which kinda don't do anything for the effect.

Don't get me wrong though; I love what you're doing.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 22:25
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@ White Fang 12
Yeh there will be up and down aiming eventually, I just need to work on some other things first.

@ Dr Manette
I think it should be Ok to check all the drones collision. It just seemed like it would be slow.

@ Insert Name Here
Yeh, you aren't meant to stack the boxes in that 4th to last challenge. - Origionally you were meant to but then when I realised they do slip off each other (for no reason) I decided to stick a big block in there where you simply stack one box onto it and jump from there.

Increasing the mass on the objects just makes them more likely to glitch through the map.
Increasing the friction makes them roll around instead of able to be pushed around.

Well grey and orange is the style, and has been since the Vision I had in the dream that started this project. (See the prologue in the very first post on this thread.)

And also the feel for the place isn't meant to be clean. There are huge tanks of water with large pipes leading into them, suggesting some kind of storage facility or processing plant. These kind of places aren't exactly clean-rooms. There is no intentional plastic wrapping. It is simply meant to ensure that one colour isn't used throughout any texture whilest being cartoony. (Remember this game isn't about realism, because with 2 men working on it, that is something very unachievable.) And look at Team Fortress 2 for example, everything looks like its made of plastic in that. (Even down to the metal baseball bat the scouts use.)

The only alternative to making these particular textures shiny and "plasticy" would be to cartoon shade the whole level, which wouldn't work for a start, as you can't cartoon map square objects and also wouldn't run very well, as there are around 30,000 polygons in the level, all textured, and with an extra texture ontop, thats the equivelant of 60,000 polygons.



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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 22:56 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 22:58
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Quote: "Yeh, you aren't meant to stack the boxes in that 4th to last challenge. - Origionally you were meant to but then when I realised they do slip off each other (for no reason) I decided to stick a big block in there where you simply stack one box onto it and jump from there.
"

Mmm, the problem is you can't push them onto that raised block form the upper platform where you come in without it bouncing off and landing on the floor. But don't worry about that, it's not too much of a problem

Quote: "And also the feel for the place isn't meant to be clean. There are huge tanks of water with large pipes leading into them, suggesting some kind of storage facility or processing plant. These kind of places aren't exactly clean-rooms."

Well in that case, how about metallic or kind of concretey textures. Admittedly realism would be very difficult, but I think they still could be improved slightly. No offense, but I still think they look kind of quick. If, for example, we look at the shiny grey texture; it looks like it would be more suited to water. Perhaps if oddities like hatches or vents were added it would be better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is they look bare.

EDIT:
Quote: "There is no intentional plastic wrapping. It is simply meant to ensure that one colour isn't used throughout any texture whilest being cartoony."

I don't think you should resort to quick 'cheats' like this, it further detracts from the realism and doesn't really make it look cartoony either.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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Mr Z
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 22:57
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About the pushing stuff around, you can always make so it detects if the robot touches an box that is pushable, and if that is the case, it slows down the movement of it (or the kinematic object). Anyway, this should not be very hard to do speedy. Do not know how well it would work, though, because I have not tried it out. But it could not hurt to try (if you do that, just make an backup of the "old" project somewhere, with the source code).

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:06
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@ Insert Name Here
Trust me, it can be done, I tested that room throughrally before coming to the final result.

Ahh yes, concrete and metalic textures would ideally be better. As the walls are meant to be a dark kind of concrete and the door frames, a plain shiny metal. The orange and blue textures are actually meant to be glass with coloured liquid in them. (Blue signifying an empty crate and orange signifying a full one.) But I think it is just the wall textures that really need changing.

You said about looking bare. I see what you are saying and completely agree. I do see that the walls don't look especially interesting and I've just realised that the main area of influence for this game (Half Life) has just what you described, vents and hatches etc. - I will work on some more interesting things such as pipes, vents and lamps around the map for the next version. (When I say lamps, I just mean the object, because lighting cannot be done in Vision due to a cartoon shader bug with the robots torso, in the fact that it is actually meant to be grey and plays up if the light is not inside it, which it is.) - If anyone feels they can help, I will elabourate in another post on this lighting problem.

@ Mr Z
I might try that actually. I know it is only a fake solution but as all the crates are the same mass and size, it shouldn't feel too odd just halving the player's speed when moving a box.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:13
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Sorry 'bout this


I came up with a quick concrete image to show what I meant: It's rusty and unclean but it's not shiny. (See attatched)

Edit: Does concrete rust?

Quote: "The orange and blue textures are actually meant to be glass with coloured liquid in them. (Blue signifying an empty crate and orange signifying a full one.)"

Ah! Really? That's interesting. In that case I would consider using slightly transparent textures for those, so as to make them look more glassy. Ironically, they're not shiny, where as the walls are.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer

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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:14 Edited at: 11th Mar 2008 23:22
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@ Insert Name Here
Define slightly transparent texture?

I'm using Deled LITE, a program that can't control alpha mapping of textures, only whether they are shown or not. And besides, to have them not shown would reveal backfaces on the oposite side of the storage crates?

EDIT:
Having seen your concrete texture:
Well, it's stained concrete alright, but it's not really the feel I'm trying to create for Vision. The concrete would obviously not be rusty, and any imperfections would be unnoticable unless one were to look for them (like in most games) but I'd also have them less frequent than that texture would put them as all the textures loop in Deled LITE so that same stain would be shown all round the level and would look really, really fake. (E.G. beyond the point of unrealisticness that cartoony games create.) xD

Also I kinda had the idea that any concrete wouldn't just be wiped across the wall, it would be made up of large concrete blocks, making a tiled concrete slab on the wall, that could loop very easily and not look as repetative. But also bear in mind that a tiled texture on walls, floor and ceiling makes the game look very boring. So I'd then be inclined back to the concrete wash across the walls that would give the level some smoothness.

(The point is, I don't really know what I want, I just thought the large metalic greyness of the walls looked cool.)

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:21
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... Tell me, are you using DBP or DBC? Cuz DBP has transparency commands I think.

I mean, it would be nice if you could see partially through the objects made of glass.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:23
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I'm using DBP.

And yeh, I know DBP has transparency commands, I could make the boxes semitransparent, but that would make the middle parts glass too. Which they aren't. (Only the coloured orange or blue part is glass, the rest is metal.)

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:27
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I'm not sure what you could do then. It would work on objects that weren't boxes anyway. There is always the possibility that in photoshop (Or whatever image program you're using) you could make the images semi-transparent, but I don't think this would work.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:32
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No, making images semitransparent I don't think applies to the texture. (For some reason.)

Incedently I use MS_Paint and Gimp for imaging, and Joe uses the same and Photoshop (I think.)

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Pet A Mizzle
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:34
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I agree with Inster Name Here, I too think it's a little hard, adn did you notice Orange boxes can't move??


Also increasing the friction is a lot easier I think for makign them stop sliding, it might interfere with ground movement though.

~Petamizzle.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:39
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@ Pet A Mizzle
Yes, I know orange boxes can't move. They are part of the map.

Increasing the friction, as I already said makes them roll around, rather than slide.

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Pet A Mizzle
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Posted: 11th Mar 2008 23:52
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Oh okay didn't read that, and okay. Kewl. xD

~Petamizzle.
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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 03:35
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Quote: "but I don't think this would work."


I do this all the time so unless is a fluke that happens just for me(because i'm cool like that) then he should be able to do it. Another way to make it look more liquidy is to add a gloss map(I think that's what it's called) and apply it to the boxs.

BTW I havn't tried the new demo yet but I will.


I'm Pro grammer.
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Ortu
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 07:34
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Quote: "Increasing the friction, as I already said makes them roll around, rather than slide."


I've never used DarkPhysics, but logically friction can only be applied where a box meets a surface, thus preventing movement along it's bottom face. if force is applied to the middle or top of an object whose base is more difficult to move than it's top, it will tip over causing that rolling. think about a refrigerator in the middle of a room, push it in the upper half and it will rock/tip-over. now push it from the bottom, it will slide.

I'm assuming the sphere you use to detect collisions between robot/box is centered on the robot, which means that force is being directed to the centerish area of the box.

to prevent rolling and encourage sliding, you would need to raise friction and ensure that force is being applied to the base... mabye lower the center of the detection sphere to ground height or halfway between robot center and ground height, rather than the robot's center.

or you could detect if a box is resting on the floor and if so, prevent rotation... this would be a bit more complex and I'm not sure if it would even work properly. It may just cause the box to bounce.

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C0wbox
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Posted: 12th Mar 2008 18:44
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@ DB PROgrammer
Yeh a gloss map, or a shiny map, cube map, anything like that would work, but I'd only want it on the orange/blue parts, not the metal parts in the middle. (That is the problem I face.)

@ Ortu
I guess I could try your idea of lowering the pushing sphere (I follow the logic in it) but the problem is that even with an increased friction using this method, I still feel the boxes will slide over each other, which is the main problem.

But I will still have a go at that suggestion.

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Ortu
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 07:04
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can you set a variable level of friction between different objects or is it a global constant?

like say the friction between two boxes can be greater than the friction between a box and the floor?

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C0wbox
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 17:41
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@ Ortu
Yeh that's what I was looking for, but it seems there is just one command to change all the friction for all objects, static (map) and dynamic (boxes).

If anyone with some experience in Dark Physics is reading this and you know of any way to get more friction between dynamic objects and less for statics, please tell me.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 13th Mar 2008 20:51
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It may be possible using materials, not sure though.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 01:48
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@ Mr Z
Well, do you think you could have a look for me? (I only discovered materials the other day when I wanted to make the boxes less bouncey so I'm not that experienced in them.

Version 0.07 (14/03 build)

This update includes the following:
1. Extra details to finish off the training centre
2. A working New Game section. (With a small taster level of what it will actually be like.)
3. The first working cheat-animated* NPC that follows you around the first room of the New Game section with the same AI the drones use.

As usual, Vision can be downloaded from here:
Vision 0.07.zip

Screenshots:

An experimental shot to test whether I'd modeled the NPC correctly and could make it walk. (By replacing the player's limbs with its limbs.


A redone version of this picture:



The NPC working in the New Game section, and the spinning V hologram.

(*Cheat-Animation - What I call the type of animation the robot and NPC use, where each limb is simply a seperate object cleverly rotating to look like its animated.)

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Mr Z
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 09:25
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Very nice. Will check it out later.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 10:35 Edited at: 16th Mar 2008 00:48
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@ Mr Z
Check which out later?: The new version or the materials? xD

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Pet A Mizzle
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 18:36
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Nice! But the NPC keeps walkign even while standing still, also awall is missing and I fell down endlessly...

~Petamizzle.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 23:19 Edited at: 15th Mar 2008 23:20
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@ Pet A Mizzle
Well done Pet A Mizzle, you managed to find 2 bugs with this not finished game.

The NPC doesn't keep walking it just doesn't reset because I haven't yet released version 1.00 of Vision (suprisingly).

The map is also missing a wall because, hmm, well that is a good one, I'm not sure, maybe I just, haven't finished making the level yet.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 15th Mar 2008 23:28
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Quote: "Check which out later?: The new version of the materials? xD"


The new version, but I will check out materials later to. However, with materials it can be a bit problematic, due to the fact that DBPro and Dark Physics are not installed at the moment and I need to get the keys for them (had them on my external drive, but I had to format it).

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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Pet A Mizzle
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Sorry just trying to help. Dx

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tha_rami
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 00:45
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Hey c0wbox, calm down, will you? Both 'bugs' are valid, confirmable and they're constructive critisism. Albeit they're quite obvious, there's nothing bad in reporting them, imagine you hadn't noticed them yet?


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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 00:51 Edited at: 16th Mar 2008 00:59
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@ Mr Z
Oh, I see. Well there is no rush at this moment in time.

@ tha_rami
I am calm, of course, but it seems all Pet A Mizzle has done is report useless information and it is quite annoying. I had up to now taken your advice and:
Quote: "ignore critics you don't care about."

But I just thought I'd make it obvious to him that his post wasn't helpful in the slightest.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 02:48
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Next time, just say you already know of them . Nothing wrong with sarcasm, but even if the guy did not help, he tried, and that is worth something.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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Pet A Mizzle
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 03:27
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I'll just not post anything back on this thread. I can tell when I'm not wanted.

Grrrr you ALL!
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tha_rami
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 14:05
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Now, c0wbox. Show us more stuff! This is really shaping up to be quite an entertaining game .


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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 14:18
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@ tha_rami & all who want more
Well I don't know when the next update will be, but it might not be for some time, for I have a large amount of GCSE coursework to do before wednesday.(19/03) So, as much as I'd like to release a new version with some more game, I don't know when the next update will be.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 14:22
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Well, I guess after 19/03 .


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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 19:43 Edited at: 16th Mar 2008 19:57
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Version 0.08 (16/03 build)

This update includes the following:
1. Propper AI code, where multiple NPCs follow you.
2. More of the New game section.
3. A fixed New game button because its text was about 4 pixels too far to the right.
4. A new NPC: the sitting NPC.

As usual, Vision can be downloaded from here:
Vision 0.08.zip

Screenshots:

A shot of some NPC AI.


A shot of lots of NPC AI.

I know I said I wouldn't have much time to release any more updates, but this one wasn't too strenuous or time consuming, and I can't start my coursework without an aditional entity. (Which I don't have yet.)

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Mr Z
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Posted: 16th Mar 2008 19:47 Edited at: 16th Mar 2008 19:47
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C0wbox, nice. Will check it out.

Quote: "I'll just not post anything back on this thread. I can tell when I'm not wanted."


Not wanted? Nope, you are not not wanted.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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Dr Manette
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Joined: 17th Jan 2006
Location: BioFox Games hq
Posted: 16th Mar 2008 20:12 Edited at: 16th Mar 2008 20:40
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Quote: "Propper AI code, where multiple NPCs follow you. "


So did my code help?

Checking out the new version now...

edit
Awesome work the AI works nicely. My main concern is how long it takes to walk from one place to another. Do you think you could make a run ability or maybe just an increase in the robots speed.


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
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C0wbox
17
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Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 16th Mar 2008 20:45
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@ Dr Manette
Your code reenforced that the concept would work, but I just reworked the old one to make it run your way.

I know it takes a little while to get to the main desk, but the idea is that you take in what is around you (much like the transit system at the start of Half Life) so you get an initial feel for the place before it launches you into the action. And I am reluctant to alter the robot's movement code because if I do I feel that some challenges in the training centre will become to easy and will need to be reworked. So for the moment, unless I feel it has to be changed, I will keep it the same.

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DB PROgrammer
17
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Joined: 9th Feb 2007
Location: Nowhere But Everywhere
Posted: 17th Mar 2008 19:17
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C0wbox, could you please make an option to turn off cartoon shading like you did in MTM?


I'm Pro grammer.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 17th Mar 2008 20:20
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@ DB PROgrammer
Sure, I just didn't think it ever got used back in MTM. xD

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Mr Z
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Joined: 27th Oct 2007
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Posted: 21st Mar 2008 18:30
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C0wbox, how is the development coming along? Any new thing you have added, or have you improved something?

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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C0wbox
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Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 21st Mar 2008 20:44 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2008 04:49
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@ Mr Z and all awaiting an update
Hi, yeh I know I've not been updating in a while, this is due to schoolwork. The updates will resume once I have finished but for the moment I'm just working on little things that aren't worthy of complete updates.

The next update will definately include a toggleable cartoon shading function, and should include a storyline intro and some interesting events and maps. How much of this I put in, is up to how long I spend between now and the time of the next update.

So yeh, nobody think this thread is dead/dieing, I just haven't got round to making anything worth an update.

Screenshots of the fact that I am working on it follow:

A screenshot showing some of the friendly (but lacking in AI) NPCs that try to follow you constantly.


A screenshot of a storage room in which the incedent will occur, leading to the storyline starting.



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Virtual Nomad
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18
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Joined: 14th Dec 2005
Location: SF Bay Area, USA
Posted: 21st Mar 2008 22:34
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amazing what a new character/npc and some props can do. definitely starting to give vision some depth now. good stuff, COwbox.

also, good to hear your priorities are right. being "distracted" with schoolwork will also help keep your energy up for when you can work on vision. ie, good vs programming "burn out".

Virtual Nomad
AMD XP 1800+ (~1.6 Ghz) / 1.5 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 8700LE 128 MB / Windows XP
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Insert Name Here
17
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Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 21st Mar 2008 23:32
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There's something entertaining about an adventure game starring a spunky little robot with oblong eyes.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
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