Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Work in Progress / Vision

Author
Message
Joeeigel
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: A dark room...
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 15:07
Link
We used to have it goto the main menu when you reached the end of the game, sadly that wasn't implimented this time, maybe because it thought it wasn't deemed important or just got left out... No idea.

Also, were you asking for footsteps and music, or what?

Back to top
Profile PM Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 19:27 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 19:42
Link
@ Virtual Nomad
I feel I must address the following:

Quote: "but the sub-titles window never left the screen"

I have already made it aparent that the subtitles were a temporary fix just so you could see what was being said. - The minidate said that the next version (not that one) would have them disapear once they are over.

Quote: "i didn't find the easter egg"

I also said that this too would be in the next version, not this one.

Quote: "btw, the program did fine on alt-tab status ~ 15 minutes"

I don't really know what this is meant to mean, but if you're trying to be sarcastic because the alt tabbing actually took ages then it is hardly my fault - it is Dark BASIC Pro's. But bare in mind that it could be your computer because mine alt tabs instantly. Alternately if you are saying it did work fine then what was the reference to 15 minutes for?

Quote: "some footstep sound effects vs in-game music"

Footsteps will come eventually and music is coming in the next version.

Quote: "after falling ~ 20,000 units i figured it was "over"."

I apologise for any inconvinience that the end of my mapping has caused you. But yes, for anyone else who hasn't yet made the connection that I stop making the level at certain points and release new versions with the work I've done so far, the end of my mapping usually leaves you falling an infinate distance. - Just look for a large black void and if you jump into it, you have reached the end so far.

In light of the fact that you were getting confused between the actual update and the minidates I will reenforce what the difference is:
Updates are shown by putting a version number and a date at the top in bold. These will outline things that have changed and will provide a download link because the download has changed and can be redownloaded.
Minidates are something I've invented so I'm not randomly spewing information in a post everytime I do something good. They are simply so that I can sum up some of the recent advances in one post so you all know what to expect in the next version.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
White Fang 12
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Aug 2007
Location: In my office coding
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 19:33
Link
i wonder what amazing enemies this game will include other then the drone any hints Cowbox?

I'm a noob help will be accepted
Back to top
Profile PM Email
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 19:36
Link
@ White Fang 12
Sure, there'll be more interesting enemies and weapons.
Enemies I'm hoping to have will include the armed cleanup robots that will be effectively evil versions of the player's robot but will be automatically assigned to clear the facility so they can repair and reboot all the systems once everyone is out. There will also be a secret force that I'm not going to go into much detail about but are basically from the corporation that sabotaged the Vision complex.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
White Fang 12
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Aug 2007
Location: In my office coding
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 19:52
Link
Cool can't wait to see that!

I'm a noob help will be accepted
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 21:50
Link
Just a few things I noticed:

-The robot walks a bit slow, and falls a bit fast

-Quite a few models have normals that need fixing

-It (randomly?) crashes when I click New Game or Training Center, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. New Game fails more frequently.

-Please center the mouse every frame otherwise it gets a tad bit annoying when I try to fire and end up clicking outside the game

-The robot thingys get kind of screwed up, maybe make them always float a certain height above whatever they are over

-Camera control seems awkward (backwards, perhaps, from the way I would think it should be? not sure though)

-Whenever the camera is as low as possible, and the robot walks in front of something low, such as those control panel things, the camera zooms into the robot

-It is occasionally possible to see outside the level

looks interesting though

Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 22:12 Edited at: 28th Mar 2008 01:41
Link
@ Jeff032
Quote: "-The robot walks a bit slow, and falls a bit fast"

Well the walking slow is mainly due to the fact that when someone walks, they are quite slow. The falling fast is to do with the fact that if you jump off a ledge, you usually hit the bottom within a short amount of time (providing it isn't 3 miles high).

Quote: "-Quite a few models have normals that need fixing"

Explain what you mean when you say "a normal that requires fixing?" - E.G. How do you know they are incorrect?

Quote: "-It (randomly?) crashes when I click New Game or Training Center, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. New Game fails more frequently."

I haven't heard of it doing that for anyone else, so it must be your computer. (Make sure you aren't running any other 3D programs (games or modeling programs), these can screw Dark BASIC Pro applications up.

Quote: "-Please center the mouse every frame otherwise it gets a tad bit annoying when I try to fire and end up clicking outside the game"

The game is in fullscreen so I don't see how this is possible, but yeh I want to make it windowable later so I will add this in.

Quote: "-The robot thingys get kind of screwed up, maybe make them always float a certain height above whatever they are over"

The drones to my experience don't screw up. But if you are refering to the fact they maintain a constant height then that is to do with the fact that they can float and the fact that allowing them to hover above the floor requires yet more collision code and potential AI screw-ups.

Quote: "-Camera control seems awkward (backwards, perhaps, from the way I would think it should be? not sure though)"

Whichever way round I have the mouse movement would seem odd to anyone. This is dependant on whether you play it like an FPS, or a third person shooter. In the real thing there will be an option to invert the mouse axises(sp?).

Quote: "-Whenever the camera is as low as possible, and the robot walks in front of something low, such as those control panel things, the camera zooms into the robot"

I distinctly remember it saying in the training centre these words:
The camera drone will automatically recognise if there is a wall or an object between it and you. If this should occur, it will reajust its position so it can see you again.
This means that if a part of the map intersects your view of the player, it reajusts by moving infront of that part of the map so you can see yourself again.

Quote: "-It is occasionally possible to see outside the level"

Congratulations you are the first person to have commented on this. (I knew someone would notice eventually.)
This is basically because the camera's range is too large and there are no backfaces on walls.
This will be fixed for the final versions of the maps. (I've had that intention undisclosed for a while now.)

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 22:23 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 22:39
Link
Quote: "@Jess032"

It's Jeff, not Jess

Quote: "Explain what you mean when you say "a normal that requires fixing?" - E.G. How do you know they are incorrect?"

What I mean is things like the 'S' on the title screen would look better if their normals were fixed. You'd probably get around to it anyway, but just in case.

Quote: "I haven't heard of it doing that for anyone else, so it must be your computer. (Make sure you aren't running any other 3D programs (games or modeling programs), these can screw Dark BASIC Pro applications up."

I'm not running any other programs, it just stops working.

Quote: "The game is in fullscreen so I don't see how this is possible, but yeh I want to make it windowable later so I will add this in."

Dual monitors

Quote: "The drones to my experience don't screw up. But if you are refering to the fact they maintain a constant height then that is to do with the fact that they can float and the fact that allowing them to hover above the floor requires yet more collision code and potential AI screw-ups"

If they only go part way up a ramp, and then go off the side, they get at a height where they can hit you, but you really can't hit them.

Quote: "I distinctly remember it saying in the training centre these words:"

Well the camera robot thing being inside the robot thing is a tad bit annoying but whatever

Quote: "Congratulations you are the first person to have commented on this."

Do I get a prize?

Oh, and you could probably reduce the size a bit if you used .png instead of .bmp.

Back to top
Profile PM
Virtual Nomad
Moderator
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2005
Location: SF Bay Area, USA
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 22:24 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 22:32
Link
@C0wbox,

i'll say this once and then move on. your response to my last post is similar to some of your responses to others in the past (going back to the MTM thread). that being, you are sometimes quick to take offense and generally "feel the need to (categorically)address" comments from fans and supporters of your work in a defensive manner. i'd bitten my tongue on it in the past, but since "it" has now been directed to me, i'll say what's been on my mind.

forgive me for expecting your post prior to my last one to be an announcement of an actual update. i browse (many) catergories and hit "newest post" when i see there are some new ones on a thread i want to keep track of. (i expect others do the same?) that will make the newest posts sometimes out of context with some of the earlier ones. there, a thorough explanation of what i thought was obvious.

and, thanks for the thorough explanation of what your "minidates" are vs an update. i can't see how i could have confused the 2. it appears i should have taken notes... now, that's sarcasm.

btw, a) people sometimes have issues when alt-tabbing in and out of a dbpro applications. i was stating that yours has no issues. and, b) sometimes how long a user is tabbed out matters for things like memory leaks, timer issues, etc. hence, my including "15 minutes".

but, of course, you know all of this so i suppose i could have saved my breath here, and in my prior feedback/support posts. that is something i'll write down for future reference.

/sarcasm off.

best of luck to you. i'm sure Vision will live up to its name

edit:
jeff made his post while i was making mine. you see, when people want to help, they'll mention things like issues with the robots:

your response?

Quote: "The drones to my experience don't screw up."


now, step back and think about what you're saying... or not.

Virtual Nomad
AMD XP 1800+ (~1.6 Ghz) / 1.5 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 8700LE 128 MB / Windows XP
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 22:47
Link
The latest version is looking good, but I want to comment on your attitude too. You seem to always come across as rude or defensive, like you've been heavily offended because someone pointed out a bug or something that has already been mentioned, and you can't believe that someone would not have read through the entire thread and each post before posting. Stop being so defensive about everything, when people take the time to play and post they are trying to help you, not to tell you everything you did wrong. I don't understand why you act like that to your game's supporters, but it's quite annoying and happens often, so I know it's not just that you're having a "bad day". Calm down and stop being so defensive.


Back to top
Profile PM Website
Virtual Nomad
Moderator
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2005
Location: SF Bay Area, USA
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 22:52 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 22:57
Link
thanks, gil. now i know i'm not the only one who felt it.

C0wbox, we're trying to be active supporters of your work. our hope is to help your vision become a reality.

Virtual Nomad
AMD XP 1800+ (~1.6 Ghz) / 1.5 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 8700LE 128 MB / Windows XP
Back to top
Profile PM Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 23:01 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 23:18
Link
@ Jeff032
Quote: "It's Jeff, not Jess"

I apologise, I thought I'd copied it directly like I normally do, but oh well I guess not.

Quote: "What I mean is things like the 'S' on the title screen would look better if their normals were fixed. You'd probably get around to it anyway, but just in case."

I don't really get how to fix it though?

Quote: "I'm not running any other programs, it just stops working."

Hmm, that is odd. Maybe it is your duel screen? - Have you tried running it all on just the one screen?

Quote: "Dual monitors"

Don't worry I will definately make sure it resets the position every CPU cycle.

Quote: "If they only go part way up a ramp, and then go off the side, they get at a height where they can hit you, but you really can't hit them."

I know it's annoying, but I'm hoping to make it so you can aim the gun up and down later.

Quote: "Well the camera robot thing being inside the robot thing is a tad bit annoying but whatever"

I know it looks kinda bad when it does go inside the player but I don't really have much alternative when it comes to that situation. - Can you suggest where to put the camera if u back up to a wall?

Quote: "Do I get a prize?"

Absolutely, I'll E-mail you the way to get to the easter egg in the new version. (When it comes out.)

@ Virtual Nomad
When I started reading your post I started to agree with you. I do accept I am a little offensive in my posts and I guess I don't really take the time to concider that not everyone here is a consistant fan. So I'll apologise for that.

But then I read on and I found your post to be more offensive than mine:
Quote: "and, thanks for the thorough explanation of what your "minidates" are vs an update. i can't see how i could have confused the 2. it appears i should have taken notes... now, that's sarcasm."

I wasn't having a go at you for not knowing what they are - I was just telling you so you know for next time. (E.G. I'm not really that bothered, but just so you'd know.)

So then you carry on and explain what your alt tabbing comment meant. - Ok, I understand now. - End of story.

And I assume when you said:
Quote: "i'm sure Vision will live up to its name "

You were implying that it will be nothing more than a Vision. - I don't really see the need to imply the project will fail? So what if you all kick me out of the forums because I like to get straight to the point when dealing with bugs. The project will still go on.

@ Gil Galvanti
I don't deliberately get offensive. It just sounds like I do because I don't want to waste time. It also makes it seem that the more bugs that people point out, the more they are against the project. - If people just stuck to genuine bugs then I could actually improve on them instead of being held back because of the illusion of the game being full of them.

@ Virtual Nomad
Hasn't everyone felt some kind of offensive remark that wasn't supposed to be? - So you got one directed at you? - Big deal, ignore it. There is no reason to get so wound up over a slightly stressed reply to something.

You must apreciate the fact that not only do bad days frequently occur, but I am trying to satisfy the forumers and fans, as well as go to school. Now I know school isn't as hard as a job. But school has homework and coursework and annoying people that breathe down yer necks.

Now alright, I may have been a bit irrational, and I don't mind people point out bugs. But when was the nerd ever at peace? - I'm constantly trying to defend myself in real life, so it falls into this forum as the natural logical way.

In light of this, if it makes you all feel better, I will try and be a little more forgiving.

No hard feelings...

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 23:24
Link
Quote: "@ Gil Galvanti
I don't deliberately get offensive. It just sounds like I do because I don't want to waste time. It also makes it seem that the more bugs that people point out, the more they are against the project. - If people just stuck to genuine bugs then I could actually improve on them instead of being held back because of the illusion of the game being full of them."

But just because you want to get to the point doesn't mean you have to do it rudely . I'm not expecting you to fluff up and tie bows around all your posts to make them see all hippy and fuzzy, lol, but just your wording and the way you act defensive makes it seem like that.

Quote: "Now alright, I may have been a bit irrational, and I don't mind people point out bugs. But when was the nerd ever at peace? - I'm constantly trying to defend myself in real life, so it falls into this forum as the natural logical way.

In light of this, if it makes you all feel better, I will try and be a little more forgiving.

No hard feelings..."

The problem is you are trying to defend yourself when not attacked . Good to hear you'll try to lighten up, and no hard feelings.


Back to top
Profile PM Website
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 23:32 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 23:38
Link
Quote: "Hmm, that is odd. Maybe it is your duel screen? - Have you tried running it all on just the one screen?"

Nope, but I strongly believe that would not cause the problem.

Quote: "Don't worry I will definately make sure it resets the position every CPU cycle."

Thanks

Quote: "I know it's annoying, but I'm hoping to make it so you can aim the gun up and down later."

ok

Quote: "I know it looks kinda bad when it does go inside the player but I don't really have much alternative when it comes to that situation. - Can you suggest where to put the camera if u back up to a wall?"

I don't really know. You could move it above, or off to the side, but maybe its not worth the bother for now.

Quote: "Absolutely, I'll E-mail you the way to get to the easter egg in the new version. (When it comes out.)"

Yay



Quote: "I don't really get how to fix it though?"

I'm not really sure either. I usually don't model things. When I did, the programs I used always smoothed all the normals, which made everything I modeled ugly, because there were always 90 degree corners. After all, every vertex must be at a whole number position.

Anyway, since then, I've found a program called MeshView.exe (seems to be made by Microsoft) Which can calculate the normals so they are perpendicular to the faces. The thing is, you have to click each limb and say "Compute Normals", and sometimes it doesn't save right either)

When I did it on "vgram.x", this is what I got (before on right, after on left):


Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 23:34 Edited at: 27th Mar 2008 23:51
Link
Meshview.exe is attached

Maybe someone can suggest a better way though. Your maps seem to suffer from the same normals smoothing problem, as well.

[EDIT] I should whip out DBPro and start making something again. Too much tinkering in C# and not enough time spent actually making things. No need to worry about drawing transparent limbs last, or draw calls at all for that matter, or making sure the render states don't get screwed up when drawing 2D, or how everyone needs .net and the framework, and how the networking sucks. Now I just need an idea. And it shall involve a tank of some sort. And now I shall stop thinking with my keyboard.

Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM
Virtual Nomad
Moderator
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2005
Location: SF Bay Area, USA
Posted: 27th Mar 2008 23:53
Link
Quote: "i'm sure Vision will live up to its name"

was a solemn statement. anyone that wasn't as defensive as you would have noticed the "/sarcasm off" line above it. but, thanks for proving my point. and, so-called "bad days" are a straight cop-out excuses for your actions.

Quote: "I will try and be a little more forgiving"

noone wants your forgiveness. forgiveness for what? that's a pretty bold statement to make. that attitude will get you far in life.

/done

Virtual Nomad
AMD XP 1800+ (~1.6 Ghz) / 1.5 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 8700LE 128 MB / Windows XP
Back to top
Profile PM Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 00:44 Edited at: 28th Mar 2008 00:46
Link
@ Jeff032
I will have a look at that in a bit.

Quote: "A side note, ignore critics you don't care about.
- tha_rami"

<Ignores Virtual Nomad's comment because he is now prolonging/escalating the incedent.> - I said I'm sorry and have said I shall change my ways; I obviously do care about this thread so I will endevour to carry this out. The end.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 01:05
Link
Hey - You know that NORMALS thing you guys are posting about? Its a PAIN is the ARSE!

You can cheat on some models - using the SET OBJECT NORMALS command - but there a re a few ways to go about it. Basically a mesh at a time - meaning a limb at a time... You have to search around to see what they are about.. and how to do it... but I recommend searching both the DarkGDK forum and DBPRO - (I had a heck of a time with them - and doc'd it pretty well in DarkGDK forum - and the rules are the same)

There is more than one technique to. One - is flat shading - like you might want a CUT GEM like a diamond to reflect light, then there is soft shading - more like Gehroud (or whatever the spelling is) shading.

Meshes that SHARE VERTS - (welded verts) Can be even trickier - but it boild down to you figure out all the POLY FACE NORMALS surrounding the vert in question, then average them.. then set the normals of that vert to the result... and "taaa daaa" looks good.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 01:40
Link
@ jason p sage
That all sounds wonderful, but I don't know any more about normals than they are the angle of a face.

@ jason p sage & Jeff032
I haven't got the foggiest what "set object normals" does, or what "normalize" means. xD

Do you think you could explain what exactly it is I'm trying to do to my map to make it less ugly through fixing these normals? And then how to achieve it. (But better still, how it is achieved E.G. What exactly the commands just did.)

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 02:33
Link
@COwbox - Sure...

1: You're levels aren't UGLY! LOL

2: Set Object Normals Sets the Normals <evil grin> It does this trick FOR YOU auto-ja-majically - but it has problems with complex models and models with more than one limb.. in my tests anyways. (Always works on limb zero and limb one good though)

3: POLY FACE Normals are like you said - the ANGLE of the POLY's FACE. "NORMALS" are ... (WHOMEVER thought of the nomenclature should be SHOT BTW..confusing as all hell normalize normals ...WT...) ALSO the name for the X,Y,Z values stored in the VERT data that indicate HOW the HARDWARE ligths will effect the corner of the poly this vert is attached to.

4: I have already written extensively on this and I am also a student of this stuff still myself but I'm a veteran - in that I have fought many battles with it! So please forgive me feeling tired and needing to move on to other things this evening.... (Like fight a Sparky Bug in DarkGDK)

My Rant and quest for help with Normals
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=120164&p=0

Microsoft Explaination of Normals in directX http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb324491.aspx

More (buried in here) http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=124748&b=22&p=1

Check that out - and note the library I mention for download in the above thread have multiple normalization routines in jgc_meshj.cpp and jgc_meshv.cpp - but as you might have guessed - they are in C++.

I didn't mess with normals to much in DBPRO but in one of the newletters - Visigoth got mentioned for his work with USGS satellite information to make a terrain - (A staple for all my terrains now) and he has alot of Normalization code and vert welding and other tidbits worth having a good sit down with.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 02:41
Link
Forgive Double Post. Just demonstrating WHAT NORMALS can DO For You... your very logo - which I like and like Zotoaster said - Cool colors! ... Notice the letter "S" especially



No Normalization

Trying to write my own routine to Normalize the normals... at first...


Eventually I got it:


The normals effect how the polys react to the light.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 15:26 Edited at: 28th Mar 2008 15:33
Link
How are you modeling things like the letters? Because I think there may be a way to avoid having to fiddle with the normals in future. Are you using extrusion or primitives? I notice that if in blender I extrude a section from a model, the light reflects OK, where as if I add a new box part to the shape in the same place, it kills my shading. Of course, if you are using extrusion it's just DBP messing things up


Oh yeah, I made a weird twisted title screen... for fun

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer

Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 21:36
Link
@ jason p sage
I read what you said and understand, but I still don't really see what I should be doing to the normals on my map. (Nor how exactly to do it.) Should I have them on, off or recalculated or something?

But were you saying I should look at some 3rd party stuff to fix the lights?

@ Insert Name Here
Everything on the map is made up of primitives until it needs to be irregular. Then I'd inset or extrude parts of it.

The letters are made up of individual blocks that haven't had CSG (Constructive solid geometry) done to them. (Don't worry, this will be done for the very final version of any map to increase overall performance and memory usage, but they are all still in their early stages at the moment.)

Oh and for the fan film (or title screen) you'll need to bare in mind that he was never meant to have a black torso, he is meant to be a chrome/metalic tin-man.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 28th Mar 2008 22:49 Edited at: 29th Mar 2008 18:38
Link
@Jeff032 -
Quote: "After all, every vertex must be at a whole number position"
What are you talking about?

@Jeff032 also -
Quote: "Anyway, since then, I've found a program called MeshView.exe (seems to be made by Microsoft) Which can calculate the normals so they are perpendicular to the faces. The thing is, you have to click each limb and say "Compute Normals", and sometimes it doesn't save right either)"
This sounds correct - I mean that each limb is its own mesh - and it makes sense that this utility "meshview" allows you to normalize on limb at a time. You can of course normalize a whole model - but REALLY only one mesh at a time.. I mean - whatever - in DarkGDK and DBPro - you need to lock vertex data for limb at a time - thats why I say this.


@COwbox -
Quote: "read what you said and understand, but I still don't really see what I should be doing to the normals on my map."
Me either - at least not yet

Quote: "(Nor how exactly to do it.)"
if you can avoid it - all the easier your life will remain.

Quote: "Should I have them on, off or recalculated or something?"
Funny you should say on or off. There are different FVF formats - these are just "WAYS" to store a mesh - and some of the formats you can have don't "have a place" for storing this normal information at all... so - turning them off is TECHNICALLY possible - just trivia you should know - but it won't help your problem.

Quote: "But were you saying I should look at some 3rd party stuff to fix the lights?"
Not exactly. I plastered you with resources to learn from - and in short - modelling programs OFTEN do the normalization FOR YOU. So much so - that I never worried about them until I made my own mesh from a memblock the first time and I started learning about them like you are right now.

This brings me to the question... what are you using for modeling?

Seriously - consider some other way. Honestly - your normals kind of give your game its own look - I mean it seem cartoony sorta - its simple - symetrical - coupled with the colors - it has its OWN look - which might be fine. Its consistant... and I don't think many game players go... hmm.. those normals look weird.

Now if you're trying to do a game like Iron Infantry and the ground terrain is all FLAT SHADED - where there are NO shadow "looking" areas etc... then... that would be bogus.

Now - if you decide you REALLY want to know whats involved in calculating normals.... then I have to try and take this thread further but I hope you give a good research effort like i was forced to - there is a bit to it. That DarkGDK normals thread is good but I thought there was another one that someone - man I feel bad I forgot who - gave me osme code and then another did also - and I had two working samples to look at - the trick though is that you can fudge it - I have code for that and you can do it right also - but this can be a REAL toughy. I did it - but only after studying it, and then applying the things I learned and the code I was given for the maths and making them "work" on my mesh design (based on Visigoth Terrain USGS stuff). Though I'm thinking the way BatVink and (I did before) might be more than good enough - but I don't know enough about the vert welding to do it myself yet...


[edit]had wrong jeff [/edit]


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
DB PROgrammer
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Feb 2007
Location: Nowhere But Everywhere
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 09:43
Link
Well I don't really want to get anyone upset but I think the reason Virtual Nomad is offended is he has been helpfully commenting all along and when I read your post you sounded VERY ticked off at him for no apparent reason. Please ignore my post if it makes you angry at all thought

Anyway, a quick way to fix the normals would be to load them up into a 3d modeling program that can set the hardness of the edges(I use Wings3D) and make sure they're not set to soft(set them to hard)

@Jason
Quote: "and I don't think many game players go... hmm.. those normals look weird."


I'm not one of those many players then I guess, every time I see bad normals in a game I think "They go through all the trouble to make a game yet they can't even fix the normals on that model." Now in Cowbox's case it's not the same as he dosn't know how to fix his normals(but i'm sure he will if you help him jasin), so it's completely different. Besides, His game isn't finished and being sold.


I'm Pro grammer.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 14:00
Link
I just posted a bunch of my own reference material in this thread... helping someone else... the NORMALIZATION math is in there.... its from various posts in the forums I SNAGGED for future reference for myself:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=126743&b=1&p=0


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Joeeigel
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: A dark room...
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 14:29
Link
I cant talk for cowbox, but I believe the reason he's gtting annoyed is the fact that people are pointing out bugs he already knows about, falling off the edge of the map when he hasn't finished mapping there yet, or just posting stuff that isnt usefull.

I believe in Nomads case it was pointing out bugs we already know about.

Back to top
Profile PM Website
Dr Manette
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Jan 2006
Location: BioFox Games hq
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 14:54 Edited at: 29th Mar 2008 14:58
Link
Quote: "I cant talk for cowbox, but I believe the reason he's gtting annoyed is the fact that people are pointing out bugs he already knows about, falling off the edge of the map when he hasn't finished mapping there yet, or just posting stuff that isnt usefull.
"


But it's unnecessary to react like that, he can just ignore the unhelpful comments instead of answering every single question. In fact, to solve his problems, Cowbox could even post an FAQ at the front of this thread. Just a suggestion.

The game's getting better, although I do find myself lagging when looking forward, so I end up looking at the ground a lot to move faster.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 15:00 Edited at: 30th Mar 2008 02:12
Link
@ DB PROgrammer
I didn't really get Wings3D when I first looked at it, but that was quite a while ago, probably before I even started modeling in Deled LITE, so I'll have another look. Thanx

Also, what Joe said was true, just, it isn't any longer, because I've lightened up and I now understand that people post anything they find wrong, not necessarily new things to me.

@ Dr Manette
An FAQ, that is a good idea, although it will be constantly changing as I sort bugs out. xD

Also, the game's performance is impeaded because the levels are very high in polygons, for example I got onscreen at one time on sector B, 52,920 polygons. But performance for computers such as yours should improve once I get the timer based gameplay into it, and also perform CSG* on the maps.

*Manual Constructive Solid Geometry where I individually go through the levels with a toothcomb and take out any polygons you never see or are flat against another one.

Mini-update
(For new fans: mini-dates aren't updates, they are just showing recent progression on the project.)

I've recently been structuring the progression on Vision so that I'm not getting too far ahead of old problems.

So I put together a list of all the things I know have to be done but I just haven't given time to yet.

Out of this list I have done the following:
1. Allowing you to properly change weapon (in that it uses a keylock and not a wait 200) so that you can change weapons without slowing the game down.
2. Fixing the fact that the players left arm and left leg were about 0.025 of a world unit off. I know this seems like an insegnificant amount, but the whole game has been scaled down to 10% (to accomodate for the Sparky's DLL bug) so that is actually the equivelant of 0.25 world units, which is noticable.
3. Making the player ghosted when holding the gun so that you can see objects infront of the player better.
4. Reducing image sizes (and the overall game size eventually) by making images that require no transparent parts .PNGs instead of having them all .BMPs
5. Making the subtitles that only take up a few lines, not cover the whole screen, but just a little bit along the bottom.

But that's only what I've done so far...
As well as these, on the list were things like:
Faster walking.
Allowing the gun to be aimed up and down.
Making the game timer based.
Making it look like you actually press a button when you walk up to one.
Adding a crosshair for better aiming with the lazer and other guns later on that will include the forced plasma replicator.
Amplifying all the sounds by 200% so that you can actually hear them properly.
Stopping his head from going through objects and parts of the map.
Tidying my code a bit more. (But that won't actually make any noticable difference for you lot.)
Making empty storage crates float on water.
Option on the options menu to set sound volume level.
Option on the options menu to reverse the Y mouse axis, and the X one if that annoys people too.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 17:13
Link
@COwbox - You see the posts I made? I gave a good link for you. also you didn't say what you were using to model (I don't think you did anyway)... Just trying to make sure you have the tools you need to get normals under control if you choose to oand have time for such things.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 17:19 Edited at: 29th Mar 2008 17:24
Link
@jason p sage

I'm going to assume you mean Jeff032

Quote: "@JeffHuys -
Quote: "After all, every vertex must be at a whole number position"
What are you talking about?"

just a slightly exaggerated description of how I model things

Quote: "@JeffHuys also -
Quote: "Anyway, since then, I've found a program called MeshView.exe (seems to be made by Microsoft) Which can calculate the normals so they are perpendicular to the faces. The thing is, you have to click each limb and say "Compute Normals", and sometimes it doesn't save right either)"
This sounds correct - I mean that each limb is its own mesh - and it makes sense that this utility "meshview" allows you to normalize on limb at a time. You can of course normalize a whole model - but REALLY only one mesh at a time.. I mean - whatever - in DarkGDK and DBPro - you need to lock vertex data for limb at a time - thats why I say this."

I know, just saying that it wouldn't be good for fixing models that have a lot of limbs.

Quote: "@COwbox - You see the posts I made? I gave a good link for you"

I'm not sure that fixing the normals with code would be the best idea...wouldn't it be luck whether a polygon ended up facing the right way? You could turn culling off, but on models like the map that would probably be a bad idea.

Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 19:38
Link
Version 0.11 (29/03 build)

This update includes the following:
1. Allowing you to properly change weapon (in that it uses a keylock and not a wait 200) so that you can change weapons without slowing the game down.
2. Fixing the fact that the players left arm and left leg were about 0.025 of a world unit off. I know this seems like an insegnificant amount, but the whole game has been scaled down to 10% (to accomodate for the Sparky's DLL bug) so that is actually the equivelant of 0.25 world units, which is noticable.
3. Making the player ghosted when holding the gun so that you can see objects infront of the player better.
4. Reducing image sizes (and the overall game size eventually) by making images that require no transparent parts .PNGs instead of having them all .BMPs.
5. Making the subtitles that only take up a few lines, not cover the whole screen, but just a little bit along the bottom.
6. Faster walking.
7. Allowing the gun to be aimed up and down.
8. Holding the robot's arm out when pressing a button.
9. Fixing lighting and normals problems.
10. An Option on the options menu to reverse the Y mouse axis, and the X one if that annoys people too.
11. Saved option choices.
12. More of sector C, and the easter egg. (Jeff032, I will E-mail you directions on how to reach the amazing easter egg.)

As usual, Vision can be downloaded from here:
Vision 0.11.zip

Screenshots:

Some of the newer detail on sector C.


The redone main menu because the maps look better.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 19:44
Link
Quote: "As usual, Vision can be downloaded from here:"

http://www.soharix.homestead.com/Vision.zip

Um.... I don't think so... I tried


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 19:52
Link
@ jason p sage
If it said:
The process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process.
Then that's because you tried to download when I was still uploading it, but no worries, its finished now, you can try again.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
jason p sage
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jun 2007
Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 21:22
Link
Quote: "The process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process"
I think it was more vauge than that - more like Error 505 - server Error - if this problem persists contact yada yada blah blah... BUT... Like you said, it was probably still uploading because I'm DL'ing it now for later test (A first time for me - never played vision)

Based on the update - and the new main menu - It's safe to say you found enough information to get normals straightened out. I don't know what you had to do (more than one technique) but no matter how you pulled it off - Congratulations!

@Jeff - sorry about the name mix up.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 21:45
Link
@ jason p sage
Oh well, as long as you can download it now, thats what matters.

And also, solving the normals problem wasn't very hard, I just used "set object normals" on everything I wanted better shading on.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Dr Schnitzengruber
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Jul 2007
Location: C:/Projects/failed/ schnitzengruber
Posted: 29th Mar 2008 23:30
Link
I like this version alot better. The character speed is very good. The subtitles work perfectly and the lighting doesn't look messy. I also found the easter egg.

Back to top
Profile PM
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 00:13
Link
I... couldn't find... the egg...

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
Back to top
Profile PM
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 00:38
Link
I found the easter egg

Being able to invert the axis is nice too

Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 00:47 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 03:47
Link
@ Dr Schnitzengruber
Good, I'm GLaD to see you liked it as much as I did when I'd finished it.

@ Insert Name Here
Lol, well no one said easter eggs were easy to find.

@ Jeff032
Did you find the easter egg on your own or with the help of my E-mail?

Mini-update
(For new fans: mini-updates aren't updates, they are just showing recent progression on the project.)

I've already found and fixed some bugs for the next version, one was that you can get stuck between large storage crates on the second part of the game where you have to get over the fallen ones.

I've also made more of sector C.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
MonoCoder
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Dec 2005
Location: england
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 00:57 Edited at: 30th Mar 2008 00:57
Link
You know, "Mini-Update" is simpler, sounds better, and at only two additional letters, you can't go wrong.

Give me an ounce of Puyo, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 02:10 Edited at: 30th Mar 2008 02:15
Link
@ MonoCoder
Hmm, I see where you're coming from there, I'll change them at once.

EDIT:
All done.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 09:00
Link
Getting better and better each update, good job . And thanks for taking my (and others) advice and lightening up, I can tell a major difference now


Back to top
Profile PM Website
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 13:21
Link
@ Gil Galvanti
Thanks, and yeh, it made me feel better to lift my spirits anyway, I had been being taking everything to seriously.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 30th Mar 2008 14:47
Link
It all looks a lot more professional now. Good going.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
Back to top
Profile PM
Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 31st Mar 2008 23:54
Link
Quote: "@ Jeff032
Did you find the easter egg on your own or with the help of my E-mail? "


With the help of the email

Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 1st Apr 2008 01:44
Link
@ Insert Name Here
I'm GLaD you think so.

@ Jeff032 & other easter-egg finders
Hehe, no telling everyone else how to get there, it wouldn't be an easter egg if everyone knew. xD

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
DB PROgrammer
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Feb 2007
Location: Nowhere But Everywhere
Posted: 1st Apr 2008 07:28
Link
I found it without a E-Mail


I'm Pro grammer.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 1st Apr 2008 15:52
Link
Haha, I found it too. Was expecting a portal reference

C0wbox... you're weird.

Lee Bamber - Blame Beer
Back to top
Profile PM
C0wbox
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2006
Location: 0,50,-150
Posted: 1st Apr 2008 18:53
Link
@ DB PROgrammer
I should hope not. xD 'Cause I didn't send you one.

(I only sent Jeff032 an Email because he won the prize for spotting that you could see through walls.)

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-24 07:46:56
Your offset time is: 2024-11-24 07:46:56