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Program Announcements / Newton Physics SDK running in DBPro!

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walaber
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 13:32
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that's really strange... the only reason it would quit back is if "col" didn't exist, or you hadn't called NDB_NewtonCreate yet..

are you sure you didn't change the source in any way?

anyone else having problems compiling demo02 ?

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 16:45
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New system looks great . D/Ling...

Any feedback on my little game above ?

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 17:09
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By the way, have you told the official Newton site about your wrapper ? I'm fairly certain they'd link to your site...

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walaber
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 18:51
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Mouse - yeah cool demo! it would be fun to be able to add random forces to the objects after placing them as well.. I had a huge stack of boxes that I really wanted to topple over

are you using realistic values for the moment of inertia settings on the NDB_NewtonBodySetMatrix command? if not, try using the built-in commands in the new version, it will make your game even more realistic

yeah, the creators of Newton know about my wrapper, they asked me today if it was okay to make a link on their site

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ChipOne
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 18:52
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walaber,

although i've been watching DB since it's inception, i have been away from the scene for some time, i recognize only a handful of names here now.

i haven't been this excited about getting a game going since i got my hands on the first beta of DBPro. seriously.

i've already got some pretty cool things going on. i can't believe how easy this makes some of the more challenging aspects of what i had been trying to do in games.

many of you won't know me, but i'm hoping those who do will look forward to seeing what i'm putting together. i'm having tooooooo much fun with this.

i looked over a couple of the physics wrappers here in the last few days and had a chance to play around a bit; this seems the most promising because of quality of docs, examples, and the fact that the engine behind the wrapper is still in development.

i'll be providing feedback over the next few days and over the coming months.

thanks for getting me going again...it's been almost six months, i think, since i posted and probably a year since i've really worked on a game.

kudos to you.

-= i only do what my rice krispies tell me to do =-
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walaber
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 19:18
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ChipOne - thanks for the inspiring comment! I'm really glad you like the wrapper, it's been a really rewarding project so far. Newton is just a fantastic system, I can't really take any credit myself.

please feel free to post here, or send me e-mails with any questions / comments / bugs / suggestions / etc that you might have!!

I'm looking forward to see what you come up with!!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 19:26
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Quote: "are you using realistic values for the moment of inertia settings on the NDB_NewtonBodySetMatrix command? if not, try using the built-in commands in the new version, it will make your game even more realistic "


Oh, thanks! That very well may be the problem I'm having. I can get the objects in that particular demo to react well, but in the more advanced demo that I just put the last coat of polish on, which has things like planks and concrete slabs and larger crates, there's some serious weirdness and instability. Some of the problems--

--Crates seem to work fine at 5 weight, but a crate 3x as big, at the realistic weight value of 125, simply sunk through the floor (which is a mesh and thus is supposed to have infinite weight and mass)

--The heavier objects are, the more ridiculously elastic they get, even with 0 elasticity. Stacks of mega crates act ridiculously bouncy.

-Flat objects, even when not very heavy, also sink through the floor .

-Collision gets very, very iffy with large, heavy, or non square-or-spherical objects. Light and rather small planks clip through each other all the time, apparently just because their dimensions are 30,1,5, for example, and it's even worse with the heavy and large concrete slabs.

I don't know how much of it is Newton and how much of it is me screwing up . The 'new' demo is up at http://www.dbspot.com/darkmouse/NewTest.exe, smaller package this time 'cuz it's a 7zip self-extractor, and with better textures, more objects, etc. But the problems mentioned above are very much in existance. It uses the 0.7 version, I was going to upgrade to the new one but some of the Newton commands weren't recognized and I wasn't prepared to totally switch over. Some time soon I'll move the code to the new version of the wrapper and see how it works, but I've got another project I really need to finish first .

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 22:34
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Walaber,

How well are the physics for handling vehicles currently?

Ive heard that improved vehicles physics will be added later on, do you what types of things would be improved with the upgrade?

Amist the Blue Skies...
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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2004 22:51
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Walaber: I wish I had changed something so it would work but unfortunately I didnt
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walaber
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:58
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TheAbomb12 - there aren't any "vehicle physics" in the current version. You can fake a vehicle currently with hinge joints for axels, and spheres for wheels, but that has been discouraged by the creators of Newton, because it becomes unstable at high speeds. However in the future there will be a special "container" just for creating wheeled vehicles, that should be stable at high speeds, and should generally make creating vehicles easy. It's not in the SDK yet, but it should be one of the next things added. Newton is great because it's constantly being updated... in fact yesterday version 1.24 was released (minor bug fixes)!


Elemenop - that's really strange. that code is re-used in several demos, all of which compile fine for you... so I'm stumped. No one else seems to be having trouble with it either. it's a shame too,, because demo2 is really fun to play around with

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 04:22
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Quote: "However in the future there will be a special "container" just for creating wheeled vehicles"


I was looking for something more along the lines of a tracked vehicle (but wheels are great too )

how would you "fake" a tracked vehicle in newton? (Im not very familiar with it)

Amist the Blue Skies...
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walaber
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 04:53
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Mouse - nice improvement to your demo! please update it to version 1.23, it only takes a slight modification to the code.

I played around with it for a bit, and I'm convinced that the moment of inertia values are our problem. Please try with the new version, using the "NDB_CalculateMIBoxSolid" and "NDB_CalculateMISphereSolid" commands, you will see a BIG improvement in the way the planks and big crates react!!

you must remember that this is a simulation, so using realistic values for EVERY variable is vital for an accurate result.

please repost it when you fix it up, I'd like to make sure that fixes the problem!!

you could also add an explosion pretty easily, make it centered around your cursor, aplpying an impulse to all objects around it

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walaber
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 05:08
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TheAbomb12 - here's how I would make a simple tank...



you would setup the rigid bodies like this. then motorize the hinge joints to provide motion. you would have 2 motor variables, one for each side. so pressing up means left and right = +10 (for example)... turning clockwise, right = +10, left = -10, etc.

of course if you used a really cool looking model attached to the main body, it would be REALLY cool. if you try it out, let me know!

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:26
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Cheers walaber, I'll upgrade it and use those new commands . I appreciate you putting them in by the way. Thanks for taking the time to explain-- will post here as soon as it's fixed.

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walaber
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 05:02 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 18:09
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good news - the character FX creator mailed me again, and this time I think the solution worked! Character FX seems to be up and running again

so now it's really time to get that ragdoll system working

also two of my demos have been featured on the Newton SDK website http://www.physicsengine.com in the "downloads" section

[edit] - CharacterFX is working great... I'm sooooo close to having a ragdoll working... just a few kinks to iron out...

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Chenak
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 00:31
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ooo... nice good luck with the ragdolls

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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walaber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 04:17 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 16:13
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holy crap I think I got it working!! and the best part is it doesn't require TOO much work to get a model to be a ragdoll.. just a careful setup of the bones! the model in the pic below I downloaded off the net, and rigged myself.

I will try to have a demo out before I leave town on Tuesday, and hopefully when I get back I will have a tutorial on how to make ragdolls in Newton (it's a little complicated - mostly setting up the bones in CharacterFX)

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MikeS
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 07:17
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Wow, I'd really be interested in this rag-doll Walaber.



My eyes are really starting to grow bigger as I watch this post. I won't distract you any longer. Get that Rag-doll working and I'd be willing to pay you and the people at Newton $$$.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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walaber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 08:01 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 08:06
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ah, but that's the best part... Newton is free with no mention of ever becoming a commercial product. and of course the wrapper will always be free.

tomorrow I'll try to get a good, impressive demo working. the model I am using I got off the net, and it's somewhere around 8000 polygons, (mostly in the face), so I might switch to a lower-poly model, so people with slower systems don't experience slowdown.

the ragdoll functionality will be in the next release of the wrapper. I will be out of town from June 8th - 18th on business in San Francisco, but I'll be taking my laptop with me to do some updates to the wrapper, and write a tutorial on making ragdolls with Newton.

so the next release should be sometime around June 20th or so... and hopefully (if the Newton SDK update gets released) it will also have some new primitive shapes (cylinders, conics) as well as a ray-cast API.

also to those who have used the system a bit: I'm going to add a command to the next update called NDB_BuildMatrix that will take a position and rotation, and build a matrix out of those numbers. Currently you must do the following:
NDB_SetVector rx#,ry#,rz#
NDB_SetVectorToRadians
NDB_NewtonSetEulerAngle
NDB_SetVector px#.py#.pz#
NDB_SetMatrixPosRow

... I realized making my ragdoll example that this much typing gets old really quick. My 2 ragdolls take up about 600 lines just setting them up! so the new command will to all of the above, but in one simple command:

NDB_BuildMatrix rx#, ry#, rz#, px#, py#, pz#

and if you call it with no paramaters, it will use temp vector 1 for the rotation, and temp vector 2 for the position. For those who can't wait, you could make your own simple function to do this right now...

does anyone have any other ideas for commands like this that would make the system easer (and faster) to use? if so please post them here or email me!

of course all of the current commands will remain for backward-compatibility.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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walaber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 10:32 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 10:33
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exciting news - as I mentioned in the post above, the next update to the Newton SDK will feature more primitive shapes for creating rigid bodies. looking at the Newton website (http://www.physicsengine.com) today, I noticed the following:

Quote: "Features to come with next installment:
Special vehicle module.
General conics and convex hull collision primitive. "


I wasn't totally sure what "convec hull collision primitives" were, so I did a little research... and this is really cool stuff. basically you give it a bunch of points (vertices), and it makes the smallest possible convex shape out of those vertices. for example if you pass in the vertices of your shaceship model, it will generate a rigid body that is wrapped around your ship model as closely as possible. this means you no longer have to just use spheres and cubes (or even cylinders / cones) to define your objects.

have a look at this java applet that shows a convex hull algorithm in action.
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/java/3d/hull.html

once this is in place, the possibilites are endless!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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walaber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 14:57 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 16:12
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scroll down!

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 15:49
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looking slick

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walaber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 16:18
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RAGDOLL DEMO DOWNLOAD

Here it is, a simple ragdoll demo! the screenshots tell the story... you can make ragdolls from a mesh model, or primitives, at a variety of different spawn points in a lightmapped room.

http://walaber.dbspot.com/ndb/rag.exe - self extracting RAR file, approx. 1.4MB

note: the model used is ~8000 polys, so the framerate takes a dive when you use too many mesh models. sorry, I didn't have time to rig a whole new model. the primitive ragdolls run much smoother!

SCREENSHOTS




the functionality shown here will be in the next version of the Newton wrapper, along with a tutorial showing how to do it!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Juso
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 20:51
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This is great fun, I got three guys on same bar!

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 23:49
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it took a while, but i got 4 guys on the same bar!

and they were all completely stable aswell.
Great demo!!

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hmm
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Posted: 7th Jun 2004 01:15
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have no screen, but got a load onto the top right bar. Then threw some more on until they slowly slid off. Awesome!

coincidence? how about pure cosmic convergence!
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walaber
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Posted: 7th Jun 2004 02:50
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hahaha! cool screenshots!

glad it ran for your guys. I've noticed the mesh-version's feet don't seem to act right, perhaps I have the rotational settings wrong there... I'll have to look at it when I make the demo for the new wrapper version.

Juso and Red_Eye, those are nice framerates!! when I put in more than 2 mesh guys, my framerate drops into the mid 20's

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 7th Jun 2004 06:12
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Cool ragdoll demo, Im a little stuck with hinges, I dont know why but I can't seem to get a hinge on the edge of an object a rotate it such as a door or a pinball flipper, it always seems to be located near the middle so the rotation is funny.
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walaber
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Posted: 7th Jun 2004 06:23
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when you create a hinge, you have to set the position of the hinge, as well as its direction. the position is in GLOBAL coordinates. so if you have a flipper at (0,0,0) that is 10 units wide, that means it goes from (-5,0,0) to (5,0,0) ... so to put the hinge at the edge of the flipper, place the hinge at (-5,0,0) for the left-hand side.

if you look at demo 2 (the hinge chain), you should be able to figure it out! if you still have trouble, I'll post a simple example of a single hinged door.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 7th Jun 2004 07:27 Edited at: 7th Jun 2004 10:58
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Ok thanks, demo two was the one that doesn't work for me, I'll give it another go

Edit: Maybe a simple demo of a door may be helpful after all
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walaber
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Posted: 8th Jun 2004 03:24
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Elemenop - click the source button for a VERY simply demo, with a single hinge. I've made the hinge part very obvious in the source.


update - I'll be out of town until June 18th on business, so I won't be able to answer questions regarding the wrapper. However I'll be taking my laptop with me, to work on the ragdoll documentation (including a tutorial). I hope to have the next version of the wrapper released by the end of June, with many new features!

Okay, I'm off! see you all in about 10 days--

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 8th Jun 2004 05:18
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nice work walaber! looking forward to using this for my project-in-progress

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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jun 2004 16:14
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Quote: "hmm - you don't need to include the SDK with your .exe... right now you just need to include the Newton.dll file with your program. However I've gotten permission from the Newton team to include the .dll into my wrapper .dll, which means the next version of the wrapper should pack Newton directly into your DBPro program, so it will be completely transparent to the end-user. I just have to figure out how to pack the .dll into the wrapper (I'm still a little new to VC++)"


You can trick dbpro into including the dll. Add a string table to newton.dll and put a command in the string table in the same way you do for tpc dlls.
Then to get dbpro to include the dll put the command in the source where it won't get run. After END is a good place to do it.

There is a modified newton.dll and example here
http://winch.dbspot.com/temp/newton.rar

can i scream
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Everwhat Studios
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Posted: 9th Jun 2004 21:32
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Hi Walaber! I am back from hols and you've made great progress. The new demos are really cool (although the second one doesn't work for me?) and the ragdolls are pretty amazing, can't wait for that tutorial and putting them into death bed

Speaking of deathbed I put an update on my plans for it and a new project using your cool wrapper and newton in the WiP, I'm starting a mini project to teach myself Newton in DBPro

So, brilliant work mate, well done. And its being used, as you can see!

The forum user formerly known as Kangaroo2.
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X3N0Wolf
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Dude how can you say you can't take any credit for this?! You've worked your tail off for this! And we're all totally stoked about it! Gonna go have a play with the demos now, typical I finally get around to looking at this on a Sunday night with work the next day But from the posts here it sounds really promising, more versatile than Tokamak, so methinx me'll be incorporating this into something in due course Thanks again dude!

By the Great Wolf... it actually WORKS!!!
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Yyrd
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er, how do i use this damn thing???
im lost where do i start?
just anoufe to make a ball on a plane.
then go from there. simple to advanced. please help me.....

ive installed the wraaper i looked ta the examples, and i dont understand what to do.

ive done nice code, but i wanna do this newton stuff now..
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Eldar
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:39
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How many collision objects can you have? Whenever I hit anywhere from 700 to 800 the program crashes.

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Yyrd
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 04:02 Edited at: 15th Jun 2004 04:33
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ok i'm trying to learn this, i realy need help

i used the demo01
and i tryed to add ball2

and nothin worked
tell me what i did wrong
please

source code here

edit/// ok thanks jimmy

i had object ball1 and ball2 at the same place
and ball to was pointen at ball1

i got it fixed
works great
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Yyrd
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looks like this post is dead.
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Douglass
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 04:40
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hey walaber, ive been working with your system for the past few days and i think its pretty easy. if anyones having trouble getting started, i made these 2 simple funtions to make a box:


and sphere:


just put them at the end of your program,put this at the beginning:

and put this somewhere in your main loop:

and thats all you need to use the engine. now walaber, this is what i need help with, i need code that makes an object unable to move and code that makes an object unable to rotate which i can incorperate into my functions.

oh and im working on a pretty cool game using the engine which i should be done with fairly soon.


http://www.dougsworld.tk
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shado
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 07:14
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hehe i got seven on one pole
this is awesome
its almost a game
can i just edit the object to make more stuff for him to smash into?
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walaber
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 14:53
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well hello everyone, I'm back from being out of town for the past week and a half

sounds like people are making use of the wrapper, that's really exciting for me! I wrote a tutorial for making ragdolls while I was away, it will be released with the next version of the wrapper.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Yyrd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 15:44
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i set the linear damper to 0 and there was no effect.

the object still slows down for no reason at a very fast pace.

object moves at 3000mph (1 game unit = 3 feet) and once i remove the impulse it stops in about 15 seconds.
3000mph to 0 in 15 seconds wow! i think that will kill somebody..


i want to either control the damping effect or stop it. can anybody help me with this?
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walaber
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 02:40
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Yyrd - you need to explain your setup a little more... I don't fully understand what you're doing... perhaps post a screenshot?

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Douglass
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 06:01 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 06:01
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hey wal, did you read my post? i had 2 questions. thanks.


http://www.dougsworld.tk
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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 07:41
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Walaber, Ive been using you example to do a swining do, but Im having trouble setting hinge limits so that if I press space the door will open to a certain angle and return back to its original position when I close it, I dont want a swing door that swings open whenever a object hits it. Please advise me. Also Im having trouble with rotations of objects. I was trying to rotate the door and have the newton object rotate with it instead of how the DBpro object is the visible newton object when you get the newton object to rotate but I had no luck there too
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walaber
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 08:25
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Doug - to make an object that doesn't move/rotate, just set its mass to 0.0
however, if you want an object that moves but does not rotate, you will be in for a difficult project. The closest thing is using the UpVector joint, that will lock an object on 2 axis, allowing rotation on only 1 axis.

Elemenop - you shouldn't try to rotate the door manually, because this defeats the purpose of using the physics engine. When you move it manually, you are essentially giving the door an unlimited amount of force, which will be unrealistic. If something is in the way of the door, no matter how much mass it has, the door will knock it aside, most likely creating instability in the system. What you need to do is look into motorized/limited joints, and open/close the door that way. You can reset the limits in realtime to make the door stay open/shut as well.

let me know if you need further explanation.

project update
I've almost got my ragdoll tutorial complete, ready for the next release of the wrapper. Here`s a preview shot of my new monkey ragdolls


the tutorial explains step-by-step how to make this ragdoll, with Milkshape + CharacterFX + DBPro source included!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

Athlon XP 2400+ || DDR-SDRAM 1GB || Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 AGP 8x 128MB
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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 09:20
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New ragdoll screenshot looks great.

Trying out motorised hinges, Im having real trouble actually making it stop at the limits Ive set, it just keeps turning.
Also I am also having trouble getting the angle in degrees of the door. Ive been trying the NDB_SetVectortoDegrees command but strange stuff keeps happening
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walaber
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 12:40
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Elemenop you shouldn`t need to worry about that... with a hinge joint, the function NDB_NewtonHingeGetJointAngle command will return the angle around the pin (in degrees)

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

Athlon XP 2400+ || DDR-SDRAM 1GB || Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 AGP 8x 128MB
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Eldar
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 19:37
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Quote: "How many collision objects can you have? Whenever I hit anywhere from 700 to 800 the program crashes."


3.1 ghz Pentium 4
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