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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] Phoenix Game Protection (v1 Trial)

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DarkFact
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Posted: 1st Jul 2007 16:18
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@Games 2 Live: Thanks, we appreciate it.

~Dave
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xplosys
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Posted: 1st Jul 2007 16:47
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Quote: "You'll get a free copy of the final Pro version if you want it. (This goes for all that help out, by the way)."


Very generous of you. As I said earlier, it looks and works very professional. Of course I want it.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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DarkFact
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Posted: 1st Jul 2007 19:43
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You're welcome xplosys. I'm taking a break today and playing Stalker. Hope it's fun.

~Dave
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s4real
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Posted: 1st Jul 2007 20:16 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2007 00:00
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Looking good Darkfact works very well and looking very pro with the vishnu idea's.


Quote: "I didn't have to work very hard to gain access to the full file listing, in fact it took me under 5 mins."


At least you had to work at getting the files, nothing can be 100% crack proof but having to work at getting them takes away the normal use ways as much as poss.

Quote: "I can beat Vishnu with one button push because of the way it's designed and that's not using any 3rd party software. It's just something they've overlooked. I'm sure I've overlooked things as well, so please do email me with your results."


Yeah darkfact there are some issues thats been worked at all the time, New ways to break in come up all the time and new ways to fix these are worked out.

Anyway the product looks good

Best s4
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FastBurst
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 01:48
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Hello Everyone -

AS you can see DarkFact and I are working very hard to try and get this out to everyone with a great security messures in place. However with any protection out there today it doesn't matter how great it is. if there is a will there is a way.

Look at all the great protections ou there in use today from your Major producers. Adobe, EA Games, Microsoft, etc.

All of them great but can be broke, that is proof alone as you can see hacked versions of every software out today.

Like DarkFact and I have said, nothing is 100% and nothing out there ever will be. its for the protection of mind that the normal user will not be ablet o break into it.

What does that mean, if you are creating video games like everyone here is you are not a normal user, if you know how to program in any language you are not a normal user, etc.

Our goal is to make the normal or average user not be ablet o crack or hack into your game folders. 8 out of 10 people on computers are normal users. this is the audience we want to protect from.

As time goes on and we see new methods we will place them into PGP so that we can defeat those methods.

One thing you have to remeber when it comes to encyptions, there is always a way to decrypt them and thats where you find people taking advantage of.

"Not asking the question to begin with is the only stupid question..."
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alex 1337
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 02:47 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2007 02:49
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I do not want to be rude or anything, but why would a protection system be made to block normal users when it is the normal users who do not even want to hack the game in the first place. You are keeping people from stealing the models, movies, sounds and etc but what good would that do to a "normal user" who does not even know what a .x file or even a model is?

Again, I do not want to be rude but I just think that your focus on the "normal user" is unpractical. You should try and keep the protection level as powerful for even the most advanced user and not settle for less.

Good Luck on your project and I will still be purchasing this once it comes out as it is a great program.

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DarkFact
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 02:52
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@alex 1337: The "normal" user as I refer to them may or may not have a knowledge of/use for 3d models, textures, sounds, etc. They may be experts at using XP or Vista. But they don't have any knowledge of programming and hacking.

The bottom line is to try to protect your game media from being stolen and re-used.

~Dave
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incense
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 19:12
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Where can one get the demo of the game that is protected by PGP?
I really want to check it out.

The person that now knows the most started with many questions. Patients and tolorance are the keys to the passage of knowledge. http://gamedesigntech.byethost7.com/
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DarkFact
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 19:46
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@incense: I'm going to re-upload a demo tomorrow morning.

~Dave
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FastBurst
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 03:25
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Just to get everyonje a little wet on what it will look like.

Here is a live demo of the web app.

http://www.btt-scripts.com/PGP/
username: bttadmin
password: family

You will see the admin side of the web app, there is a userside as well. There are still alot of functions that may or may not work however you can at least guide yourself for now. As the project grows it will also allow for more functions as clients request them.

I have not included the import function as I do not want people trying to upload keys to the demo.

let me knowyour thoughts please.

Enjoy

"Not asking the question to begin with is the only stupid question..."
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 03:34
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@FastBurst: Looking nice, buddy!

~Dave
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alex 1337
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 04:56
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That is the most amazing program I have seen in a long time. I have been waiting for someone to make a program like this for a long time. Count me in as a customer. You won my money. If possible, can you also let us look at the user side of the website? Also, can we change the phoenix logo to our own game's logo?

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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 04:59
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Quote: "Also, can we change the phoenix logo to our own game's logo?"


FastBurst will answer your questions in detail, but I'm sure you'll be able to change the logo if you choose to host your own validation server. The web application will be hosted on our servers and you will have the option to get your own copy of the web software for your server.

~Dave
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 05:07 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 18:49
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Game Demo #2

Here's the second iteration of the Game Demo with some new protection methods added. If you are able access the game folder, there's a text file with instructions to claim your free Pro Edition.

I'll leave the demo up until someone claims their copy. Only one copy will be awarded per iteration. Thanks for playing.

LINK REMOVED
This iteration is over, no one claimed the software so if you already downloaded, you can still claim it. I will post the next iteration some time tomorrow with a slight enhancement to the protection methods.

Thanks for playing.

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 06:42 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 06:46
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I don't think there are any more holes for now, i am probably wrong though

also i loved the demo, really detailed
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 06:49
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Quote: "I don't think there are any more holes for now, i am probably wrong though"


There are still ways I know of. I can write a program to beat it. But that's beyond the scope of protection we're seeking.

Thanks for playing.

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 06:51
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i just cant find out how it reads all the files but the files are not any where that i know of

nice work on this program by the way
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dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 07:21
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Quote: "If you are able access the game folder, there's a text file with instructions to claim your free Pro Edition."


I was so looking forward to my free copy , however the said file says you must disclose the method of getting the file to claim it and we all know magicians never reveal their secrets .

Quote: "Look at all the great protections ou there in use today from your Major producers. Adobe, EA Games, Microsoft, etc.

All of them great but can be broke, that is proof alone as you can see hacked versions of every software out today."


This is true, however the protections they employ are not against users stealing the media, they are to stop or slow down the propagation for non paying customers. This issue with this software is that it disallows users to do common tasks, very often I tab out of my game(s) to look something up, run some app like Teamspeak, Vent etc no professional game to my knowledge bars users from these common tasks as they are not needed. The issue with FPSC is that all media has to be extracted to the user's HDD somewhere, this APP merely changes that location every compile and deletes it once terminated while the files remain in a secure encrypted state. The best form of protection would be for the game to load the media directly from the compressed state, but this is not possible using FPSC(without engine modification) so all this elaborate protection is useless in my option, and I find it quite humorous that so many users find the protection methods used here and in other applications to be so secure, when in fact it's just detracting from the usability for legitimate users.

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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 08:19
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umm DarkFact i found the videos for the game but thats it
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MartinS
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 10:01
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So if find any way to beat it (including writing software) we get a free copy?

G2L

I don't remember ever forgetting anything.
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PAS
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 16:10
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Quote: "This is true, however the protections they employ are not against users stealing the media, they are to stop or slow down the propagation for non paying customers. This issue with this software is that it disallows users to do common tasks, very often I tab out of my game(s) to look something up, run some app like Teamspeak, Vent etc no professional game to my knowledge bars users from these common tasks as they are not needed. The issue with FPSC is that all media has to be extracted to the user's HDD somewhere, this APP merely changes that location every compile and deletes it once terminated while the files remain in a secure encrypted state. The best form of protection would be for the game to load the media directly from the compressed state, but this is not possible using FPSC(without engine modification) so all this elaborate protection is useless in my option, and I find it quite humorous that so many users find the protection methods used here and in other applications to be so secure, when in fact it's just detracting from the usability for legitimate users."


OK I will be honest right here, right now. I am not even worried about people hacking into my game. I mean, honestly, if theres awill theres a way. I like PGP above anythign else because it looks cool and has a lot of cool festures to make a game stand out even more. DarkFact did not just make protection, but a game menu maker, icon maker, a loading scene etc. Thats cool for me. I would buy PGP just for that even if it did not have any protection. As far as major developers not having these degrees of protection, well I know thta Lucas Arts has a protection provider for their games that even has the risk of not being able to work on certain burners. I know because I have bought games like this and if you try to use any copying program the program on the game will lock you out. So how is that different? I like PGP features because you cna generate a key code, and all of the other stuff. So, protection or not, I do not think people are going to buy PGP just for protection. It offers a lot more then keeping your media secure. With that, on top of adding some type of resistence, it is worth the buck.

K.L. Phair
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 16:55
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@dark coder: Noted. Thanks for sharing your opinions. People who will buy PGP or any other protection software will buy it because they want to. If you don't want to, then don't. No one is trying to make you.

As you pointed out, the only way to truly protect FPSC media without limiting the user's abilities during game play is to change the source of the FPSC game engine itself. Until this happens, the choices are no protection at all or a 3rd party protection system like Phoenix or Vishnu. That's it.

@M Man: You found just video files?? That's odd.

@Games 2 Live: Yes, but you have to give me the source code and app you used, and I get to verify it works.

@PAS: Thanks for your continued support. We really appreciate it.

~Dave
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Silvester
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 17:08
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Ah,good to see you looking into protecting against users even more now

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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 17:19
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Quote: "Ah,good to see you looking into protecting against users even more now"


Yeah, but keep in mind that there's a difference between focus and intent. Our focus right now is to protect against Non-Software based attacks. Our intent is to protect against all types of attacks.

Phoenix will always be a work in progress. I learn something new every day and as long as people are willing to share their attack methods, we'll make it better for everyone.

~Dave
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dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:07
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Quote: "Lucas Arts has a protection provider for their games that even has the risk of not being able to work on certain burners"


Well virtually all games use some form of CD protection, however these too are rather futile protections.

Quote: "I know because I have bought games like this and if you try to use any copying program the program on the game will lock you out. So how is that different?"


Quite different, this protection applications disables many common operations as I stated above, it's not so much of an issue for me as I have two PCs but very often while in game I view forums, chat on MSN etc. This app disables things like this, I've never encountered such strict measures before. Even when forcing the game to minimize the protection detects the loss of focus and terminates, this is quite obviously due to the fact that any user could then browse to the folder which the media was extracted to.

While I agree that this provides a nice front-end from the rather pathetic one FPSC offers the one act of protecting the media which is good in theory just has far too many negatives in my opinion, as proven by my small effort to gain access to all the game's media anyone who wants the media will likely be able to get it, if not by themselves someone is bound to upload a torrent of it eventually. Let's assume that this game became widely used you are effectively inconveniencing every (legitimate)user due to a protection which can be defeated within minutes.

I also noticed if you do anything which prematurely terminates the protection app(change window focus, soft restart etc) the app won't fully cleanup and will leave the root directory with a folder, if this happened many times the user would end up with a lot of useless folders so you may want to revise the cleaning up of all media. Plus I haven't tested this but would a very easy way to gain access to the media be to do a hard reset / power cycle then the media shouldn't have been removed. How can you protect against this? even if you place on run events to delete the media anyone could start in safe-mode then delete these events then help themselves to the media.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:24
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Quote: "As you pointed out, the only way to truly protect FPSC media without limiting the user's abilities during game play is to change the source of the FPSC game engine itself."

On the contrary, it is possible to modify the executable to hook certain file loading routines and insert your own decryption routine. It's rather difficult though...

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:31
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Yea i found just the video files and the music and thats it and sometimes it comes in a zip file
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:47
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@Benjamin: When I said "change the source" I was implying that you'd be "modifying the executable". So we're saying the same thing. Unless you mean something entirely different.

@m man: That's still odd. A Zip file? like with the .zip extension?
can you email me a screen shot?

@dark coder: Okay, noted again. Thanks for your opinions. The clean up has never left partial files on my PC, but maybe it's just my PC. This is why I'm letting people test drive the demo games. It gives me valuable user feedback and gives everyone else something to do.

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:49
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sure
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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 18:53
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Quote: "When I said "change the source" I was implying that you'd be "modifying the executable". So we're saying the same thing. Unless you mean something entirely different."

I mean modifying the executable after it's been created, not modifying the FPSC source code.

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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 19:04 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 19:05
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sent message darkfact

first post on 8th page yes
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 19:08
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Quote: "sent message darkfact

first post on 8th page yes"


LOL...you're the m man, dude. Thanks for the help.

~Dave
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 19:09
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@Benjamin: Oh, okay. I see what you mean. Thanks.

~Dave
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incense
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 19:32
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@DarkFact: Maybe I am missing it but I still don't see any link to DL a demo game in this thread or on your site.

The person that now knows the most started with many questions. Patients and tolorance are the keys to the passage of knowledge. http://gamedesigntech.byethost7.com/
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 20:02
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your welcome darkfact
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 20:13 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 20:25
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I just got it , got gamecore files with guns but i didnt get all of it because my computer restarted so i only got the ak 47 and desert eagle and modern day stuff
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 20:20
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if you want darkfact i will email you about how to get this because i just figured out how i did it
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Scooby107
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I can be of help if you need.
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:05 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 21:09
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@m man: Yeah email me. Send the .txt file in the email, too. Thanks

Edit: Sorry, didn't read your post completely. Did you tell your computer to restart or what? There's no code that restarts your computer in PGP. Please email me with your results. Thanks.

~Dave
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:06
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@incense: The next one will go up in the morning. I guess you just keep missing it.

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:12
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darkfact only prob is that i dont have the txt file cause i only get some of the files not all and i said that wrong my computer didnt restart it went into sleep mode by accident i pressed the sleep button.
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DarkFact
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@m man: Okay, I understand. Please email me with the details when you get a chance. Thanks!

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:19
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ok i will now
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:40
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message sent with pics
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DarkFact
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Although m man didn't fully hack the system, he did manage to get to part of the game files. For this reason, I'm awarding him the free copy of the software. His method is easy to protect against, but I'll have to re-code a bit more.

Excellent work, m man!

I should have the next iteration up tomorrow if my wife leaves me alone for a bit.

~Dave
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m man
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 21:54
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Thanks for the free copy DarkFact
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MartinS
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 22:01
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So... how'd m man crack the system?

G2L

I don't remember ever forgetting anything.
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 22:13 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 22:55
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Quote: "So... how'd m man crack the system?"


Sorry, it's not a good practice to divulge that information publicly as other protection systems may suffer the same fate. I've already made the fix anyway.

EDIT: Without telling you too much, it was a poor coding arrangement. I've fixed the part of the code that allowed the hole plus added some padding to protect against similar attacks or my coding misjudgements.

~Dave
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MartinS
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 22:37 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2007 22:41
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@DarkFact: No problem, I was just curious. BTW The Pro edition - does it have the option to use Online Validation? The feature comparison list seems to have disappeared, or at least to me anyway.

G2L

edit: sig

Coming soon...
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DarkFact
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 22:52
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Quote: "The Pro edition - does it have the option to use Online Validation?"


Yes, the online validation option is in the Pro and higher editions.

~Dave
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