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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / TGC App Developers Group

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 01:29
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Lucas, I couldn't download it from AppUp I got an error message but I've been having a few problems with the client. I think I'l re-install the client and try again when I get the chance. In the meantime email me a link and I'll try any other version you have available.

@Batvink, I was just building an installer for "Football Factors", uploading to AppUp as I type Yes it's much easier after you have a template. Did you use VS or Warsetup?

I'll try your Beta! Would you like to try mine? Or anyone else who has AppUp?

I'll send out Beta invites ASAP but anyone interested can send me an email with their AppUp login email address.

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mr_d
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 04:23
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no-one wants to try my MinimalMSIMaker tool?

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 10:37
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Quote: "no-one wants to try my MinimalMSIMaker tool?"

Sorry, I forgot, if this version of Football Factors needs any changes I'll try it for the next version. Will I need to use Orca afterwards? Oh and does it produce a silent install (one that requires no input from the user)?

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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 10:39
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@baxslash
Sounds strange about your client error. Hope you get that sorted soon. I've sent you over a link to the latest build of RADAR which you can download from Google Docs. I've sent the link to the email address linked to your forum account. Hope that's OK. Good luck with validation on your latest creation!

My netbook is currently dead (broken IDE controller or something) but once it's fixed, I'll be happy to help people with beta testing too.
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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 10:41
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Lucas, I got your mail but the link went to a "Sorry no document" page...

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mr_d
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 10:55 Edited at: 15th Jun 2011 10:56
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@baxslash
Quote: "Sorry, I forgot, if this version of Football Factors needs any changes I'll try it for the next version."

That's fine; thought it was something like that.
Quote: "Will I need to use Orca afterwards?"

The idea is no, but it wouldn't hurt the first couple of times to use Orca to check that it looks how it should without any manual modifications.
Quote: "Oh and does it produce a silent install (one that requires no input from the user)?"

Yes, it does.
I can't remember if the AppUp requirements need the install to have an uninstall icon (it can be done manually at the moment from the Add/Remove programs screen), if it does, I can add this in and upload a new version. Do you happen to know?

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 11:02
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Quote: "Yes, it does."
Great!

Quote: "I can't remember if the AppUp requirements need the install to have an uninstall icon (it can be done manually at the moment from the Add/Remove programs screen), if it does, I can add this in and upload a new version. Do you happen to know?"

No you don't need an uninstal icon. At least I haven't included one yet in any of my published Apps...

I'll definitely try it next installer I build.

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mr_d
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 11:09 Edited at: 15th Jun 2011 11:10
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Quote: "I'll definitely try it next installer I build."

Great! Thanks. And just to double check...could you please provide a summary list of what you have previously normally include in your installers?
i.e. do you include any DirectX9c files? If so, what format (i.e. merge modules or other? Any other dependency files either for DBP or plugins?) I am just trying to confirm that I haven't missed anything obvious... Cheers.

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 11:24
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The seperate dll's I need to include depend on the project but are normally dropped into the application folder if they aren't compiled in with the executable.

I use the merge module supplied by Lee in this example: My Cool Game

The relevant merge module is called "DBPGDKMergeModule.msm", I'm fairly sure it's in that download but I might put some useful links in the first post some time soon... round all this stuff up!

That's about it but as I said some games may need additional dll's in the application folder.

Has anyone seen Rick's video showing multiplayer on the AppGameKit, hosted on a netbook and joined by an iPad? Check it out:


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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 11:33
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Here is a link to the Beta for Football Factors if anyone is interested in trying it that doesn't have AppUp:
Football Factors Beta V1.0.0

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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 11:47
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Quote: "Did you use VS or Warsetup"


I went with Warsetup, I only have VS Express.

mr_d, I can't use your tool because I have multiple folder layers.

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mr_d
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 12:00
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@baxslash
Quote: "I use the merge module supplied by Lee in this example: My Cool Game
The relevant merge module is called "DBPGDKMergeModule.msm""

Thanks for the info, thought you might but wondered as it is a bit of a hefty addition weighing in at about 60Mb!

@BatVink
That's OK - you mentioned that before Too bad though as I wouldn't mind some more guinea pigs (oops...um...i mean) testers. You wouldn't want to think about flattening it out a bit, would you? I don't know why anyone would need more than 1 level of folders...

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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 15:15
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Quote: " I don't know why anyone would need more than 1 level of folders"


I program in a modular fashion, so I can swap one folder for another, and I get a newly branded game. If I have a simpler game structure anytime I'll try it out though

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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 17:34
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@mr d
I'm in agreement with BatVink here; please add support for multiple subdirectories. I've downloaded your installer maker and it looks really great but I've not got a project on the go at the moment that can use it. Seriously this would be a really excellent bit of software if you could support more subdirectories. At the moment, I'm having to make new installers several times a day and it could really save me time. If the issues continue, I may have to flatten out the project so that I can use your program but it would be even better if the software could handle the project as is.

@baxslash
Multiplayer in AppGameKit looks really great. I'm so glad they decided to include multiplayer support as it means that my next project, that I've been planning for a while, will be able to use it. Had there been no multiplayer, it would not have been practical for me to do so. I can't figure out what the issue with the download is for you. I can't even say it's because your not gmail as I've got someone downloading for a btinternet address. I'd be happy to test your game for you through AppUp on an old PC running XP SP3 if you send me an invite.

Well I've uploaded yet another build (0.7 now) of RADAR to both Google Docs and AppUp. My hope is that it should fix Hodgey's no start error although I'm by no means certain that it will work. Thanks for all your efforts testing.
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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 22:59 Edited at: 15th Jun 2011 23:02
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Latest news on AppUp Apps...

Quote: "The AppUp developer program will be introducing app signing starting July 18th, 2011. So what does this mean for you? It means that all apps starting July 18th will have to be signed before they are submitted to the program for validation. The apps will be validated based on validation guidelines as well as criteria for signing.

There is a cost associated with app signing but we are subsidizing the cost for the community for the first year. Both paid and free applications require a digital certificate. As of now, Windows*, Java* and Adobe AIR* applications will require signing. MeeGo apps do not require signing at this time. Also this does not apply to resubmission of apps with updated meta data, but will apply if you resubmit existing binaries as of July 18th. "


I checked the price, it's around $300 for 12 months

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 23:18 Edited at: 15th Jun 2011 23:29
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I hope they reconsider.

Further details here: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/blog/2011/06/04/application-signing-be-introduced-intel-appup-dev-program-starting-1st-july

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 23:43
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Would be fine if anyone ever made any money with AppUp - What are Intel doing to promote AppUp!

At $300 for 12 months, they'd have to guarantee people could make that back with a decent effort - there is no proof of that yet.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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The Slayer
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 23:53
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So, does this mean $300 for one year per app? If it is, then yeah, it's a lot. Our games would have to sell enough to compensate.
This isn't good news indeed.

RULES, MAN! YEAH, SLAYER!
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Hodgey
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 06:14
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@ Baxslash, awesome video, looks a lot like DBPro

@ Lucas, got some good news and some bad news.
Good news - IT RUNS!!!
Bad news - whilst on the loading screen I get an error message saying "Client Agent not running". Could this be Appup related?

I hope they reconsider as well, the cheapes I found was about $170/yr and even that's a lot.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 09:54
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I've probably made around $200 from sales in the last 8 months but remember they might introduce the $99 fee too.

It seems that now they have some serious developers involved they are prepared to let some indie developers slip. We'll have to see how much they will help with the cost to start with...

My guess is that TGC will get signed and we could still potentially publish through them.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 10:20
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Quote: "they might introduce the $99 fee too."

This did briefly cross my mind. I fear this has put me off Appup for a while. Until Appup gains a lot of publicity so the potential to actually make some money is there I probably won't be selling any games on Appup (not independently anyway) especially with AppGameKit around the corner. I will ofcourse still cheer you guys on.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 11:43
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I have some feedback from my contact at Intel regarding this:
Quote: "Yes I completely understand the concerns you talk of and I would appreciate it if you could spread the word through your forum that there will be a link on the IADP Developer site for registered developers to obtain a free certificate license for a year. The link to access this free license will not be listed on the IADP site until July 18th.
I would urge anyone considering AppUp to sign up if they have not done already in order to take advantage of this next year’s free publishing. As always if at the time Intel does require a membership fee or digital signatures, which may be economically unviable for indie developers, then there may be a sad loss of talented young developers. However Intel understands this and wants to hold on to this vital community by extending the license situation for one year. In the hope that a good enough financial model will exist for them to continue at that point.
Meego is a continued exception and there are no plans to require any digital signatures or any incurred cost other than development time.
"


...also he said:
Quote: "
This has been a major topic of discussion here and we learnt of the decision from above made in a distant American state. We generally disagree with it and If you want to collect feedback and pass it on to me then I will do my best to pass it on to the powers that be.
"

This sounds quite promising to me so if you have an oppinion on this matter post it here and I will collect as many of them as I can into a 'community petition' to forward to Intel. That's about the best we can do but for now at least development is still free ...but you must have an AppUp developer account before the new requirement comes to pass on 18th July!

Hope that cheers you all up as much as it did me!

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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 12:36
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Sounds promising Baxslash. I think I will feed back through my personal Intel contacts so that it comes through numerous channels, and I will mention it to Rick too.

On another note...my beta testgame won't download through AppUp, I get an error 210. Does anyone know anything about this issue? On a more up-to-dae Appup installation it just says "Downloading", then changes to "Get", but never arrives.

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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 12:48 Edited at: 16th Jun 2011 12:50
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Quote: "On another note...my beta testgame won't download through AppUp, I get an error 210. Does anyone know anything about this issue? On a more up-to-dae Appup installation it just says "Downloading", then changes to "Get", but never arrives."

That might be the same error I've been getting. The client seems a bit shaky...

I'll try again tonight.

EDIT: Are you running the latest version (with black background)? The SDK is on V1.1.2 as well, I'm working (still) on the new dll. Haven't got the Upgrade code working yet...

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Hodgey
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 12:49 Edited at: 16th Jun 2011 13:10
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This is good news and I hope they do get rid of it entirely but that probably won't happen. I like the idea of a free certificate for a year but what happens when that year is up?

If Intel made some sort of revenue splitting deal to pay for the certificate I might be ok with that. Or if they let each app published get a free certificate for the first year and at the end of the year it is the developers choice whether to start paying for certificates or take their app off the store. This gives the app a chance to do well and if not you haven't spent $300 for nothing.

I'm not too worried about making money on the Appup store but I certainly don't want to lose money publishing an app.

But that is very good news for now Baxslash

Tell your contact at Intel that he is "our only hope"

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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The Slayer
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 13:36
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Quote: "you must have an AppUp developer account before the new requirement comes to pass on 18th July!"

Well, I submitted my game Brixoid twice or three times, but it never got passed validation. So, basically, I have an AppUp developers account, right? Or, am I wrong?

I seriously hope that they reconsider the $99 fee too. Or some other kind of arrangement that gives indie developers the chance to at least earn some profit out of their games.
If they (AppUp) wanna gain something out of the publishing of games (which is normal I think), they should also keep in mind that there are a lot more indie developers than big software companies, and they should encourage those indie devs and above all, try to keep them.

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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 13:41
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Quote: "Well, I submitted my game Brixoid twice or three times, but it never got passed validation. So, basically, I have an AppUp developers account, right? Or, am I wrong?"

Yes you have an account. You need one to submit a game.

I'm sure the $99 fee is easily achievable (I made that much in the first four months more or less and could cover it in a lot less now). With a good game and a little luck you could do really well.

AppUp is still a viable outlet with a lot of possibilities. $200->$300 would be too much of a yearly fee though (despite the possible advantage of being certified)... I'd rather develop for iPhone.

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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 14:08
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@Hodgey
I think I've managed to replicate the errors your getting on a Vista machine. I'm a little hazy on the validation. It certainly sounds like the new error you're getting is because you're running it outside the client. However I'm puzzled by why it worked outside the client before and not now. Can anyone shed any light on what might be happening? The old error was a problem with my collision dll by the way; I was using the debug rather than the release version.

Certainly not liking the sound of these AppUp fees but what you say baxslash is hopeful. Does anyone know what happens if I get games up there whilst it's free and then refuse to pay the next year. Would that just stop me adding new games and updating or would it take down my games already there too?
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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 14:17
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Quote: "Does anyone know what happens if I get games up there whilst it's free and then refuse to pay the next year. Would that just stop me adding new games and updating or would it take down my games already there too?"

The impression I get is you would have to have a certificate to update the installer... which would leave you in the same boat as me if any bugs were found at a later date.

You could always ignore the cries for help or remove the game from the store... who knows. Give me more community voices on this issue and I'll forward as many comments on as I can.

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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 15:21
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Some further advice from Lee:
Quote: "It's free in the first year and the certificate you purchase for signing can also be used for all your software signing, not just AppUp. The idea is that the cost is met by sales of your product(s) during that year. If $199 is a bit steep for a particular indie, my recommendation is to squirrel away $199 sales from the first year (which is free) and then use that to pay for the certificate, and so on each year. Signing can be a pickle, but you can boil it down to running a single batch file on any executable you make an installer from.

I visited this link: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/article/how-do-i-get-code-signing-certificate-certifying-authority
"

Seems like if Intel won't change their mind this might be the only option. We have to remember that the games industry is pretty 'dog eat dog', that being the case I might have to try being a bit of a squirrel...

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mr_d
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 16:30
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baxslash,
thanks for running with this on our behalf and gathering all the useful information you've posted so far.
please add my voice/vote to the number of disapprovers of this plan by Intel that will surely be the beginning of the decline of the Indie Developer on their App Store. It is a sad but common theme that Big Business always seem to loose sight of the people that helped them to establish their market. They always see to want to chase the delicious looking treats and forget about their bread and butter.
Ho-hum. Please continue to keep us updated - it's really appreciated.

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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 16:47 Edited at: 16th Jun 2011 17:07
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Quote: "thanks for running with this on our behalf and gathering all the useful information you've posted so far."

My pleasure, and not entirely unselfishly done I have to be honest. I really want to continue developing for AppUp (at the very least)...

Quote: "please add my voice/vote to the number of disapprovers of this plan by Intel that will surely be the beginning of the decline of the Indie Developer on their App Store."

Thanks I will, your comments will be quoted exactly as you have put them here. I like the 'bread and butter' quote particularly

As a side note I have added a link to your msi builder in the first post along with several other links. If anyone has any ideas for other useful links to add in the first post please let me know.

I'm still working on a full guide to developing for AppUp but I've been sidetracked with multiple other tasks / problems...

I intend to get past these issues no matter what so stick with me folks

EDIT: I've also just added links to ALL of the games listed on the appup site...

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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 18:38
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Add my vote against the fee too. For me personally it would be a great shame as the numbers being thrown around so far would simply be too high for me to be willing to pay, given the current returns the store is giving.

Such a policy would also seem to be very short sighted for AppUp as app stores, IMO, thrive from having an app for every occasion. That quantity of quality apps for niche markets that make app stores so universally useful are only possible through lots of indie developers. A few big companies will make a few quality apps but they won't ever replace the numerous indie developers who will be lost by large upfront fees.
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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 18:50
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Thanks Lucas your comments are much appreciated!

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The Slayer
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 19:50
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Quote: "A few big companies will make a few quality apps but they won't ever replace the numerous indie developers who will be lost by large upfront fees."

Good point, Lucas! That's exactly whut I was saying.

@Lucas:
Any link for non-netbook owners to download your game and give it a testdrive?
Good luck with your game, btw.

RULES, MAN! YEAH, SLAYER!
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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 21:03
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@The Slayer
Ty
Depends what you mean by non-netbook owning. If you have any PC with the AppUp client installed, I can send you an invite as soon as you give me the email address of your account. If not, you can try downloading from my Google docs. To share, I'll again need an email address. A word of warning about this version; at least two testers have found that installing and running outside the client causes a validation failure. As I posted earlier, I'm a little confused about this. In a way, this sounds like the validation code is doing what it's meant to; blocking use of versions outside the client. However I'm aware that people used to be able to run it without the client and I've made no changes to the validation code. Don't know if anyone has any thoughts on this. That said, I'm happy to send the link as, for me at least, it runs fine outside the client.

Thanks again for all the testing. Once my netbook's recovered, I'll be happy to do some testing of people's apps too.
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baxslash
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 22:20
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Regarding 'None netbook owners' yes you can install AppUp on any PC (I even installed it on my Vista Machine using XP compatibility settings...)

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BatVink
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Posted: 17th Jun 2011 13:28
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I made a mistake with my AppUp email address . If anyone wants me to test, just add me as steve at devink . co . uk

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baxslash
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Posted: 17th Jun 2011 13:35
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Thanks Steve but impatience on my own part (plus a few beers last night) caused me to put my latest app in for validation after some minimal testing by myself and my nephew.

One day I'll stop drinking. That day will be a sad day... because I'll be either dead or seriously ill

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BatVink
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 02:09
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After multiple reinstalls of AppUp I can download my own app.

The silent install...it installs itself without questions, but it shows an "Installing" window and progress bar, is this acceptable?

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mr_d
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 04:27
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If memory serves, from what I ave read, that is perfectly fine.
As I understand it, what is not acceptable is anything that requires user intervention or action with the installer for it to complete.
Hopefully, baxslash (who is the reigning expert of all things AppUp on this board) will be able to confirm my recollection

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Cor
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 05:53
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@batvink yes the progress bar appeared on my app as well during the beta test (probably something with the appup client )and my app passed the validation. I think it is just user input they don't want on the install. Good luck with validation!
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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 08:15
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Yes batvink, that's normal as mr_d and Cor said it's just actual user intervention being required that would be a problem like having a button to click or something.

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Lucas Tiridath
AGK Developer
16
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Joined: 28th Sep 2008
Location: Kings Langley, UK
Posted: 18th Jun 2011 11:13
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I just had a thought about RADAR that I wanted your advice on. Since I ran into the problem early on that saving games under the root directory of the game led to the program only running in admin mode on 7, have been saving games in My Documents under TezcatlipocaSoftware\RADAR\. However I have a couple of concerns about this. Firstly, do you think users will mind that I'm writing to their My Documents? After all, if they've got everything all nice and organised, they might not like me cluttering it up. Also will this cause a problem in that the uninstaller will not remove the saved games and they are created programmatically and are not part of the install? If this might be a problem, what are my alternatives? Thanks for any advice on this.
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BatVink
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 12:17
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Quote: "do you think users will mind that I'm writing to their My Documents"

This is normal since Vista. You'll find a directory called My Games, you should use this.

Quote: "Also will this cause a problem in that the uninstaller will not remove the saved games"

Again, this is quite normal. AS long as your game data is not a huge amount, then it's quite good that if they reinstall, they can carry on with their saved games.

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The Slayer
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15
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Playing: (Hide and) Seek and Destroy on my guitar!
Posted: 18th Jun 2011 13:06
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Quote: "Also will this cause a problem in that the uninstaller will not remove the saved games and they are created programmatically and are not part of the install? If this might be a problem, what are my alternatives?"

Well, from what I read somewhere (I think it was the AppUp forum), it seems that every file that is installed or created programmatically after install, should be removed after de-installation to pass validation. I'm not entirely sure, though. Maybe baxslash or someone else could confirm this. I also created files programmaticaly after installation to the root directory of my game Brixoid, and it didn't pass validation. I would also like to know an alternative. Saving files to the My Documents folder would be the best option, but then how do we set this up in the .msi (Warsetup)?

Cheers

RULES, MAN! YEAH, SLAYER!
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Battoad
AGK Developer
17
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Location: A Dark Place
Posted: 18th Jun 2011 13:41 Edited at: 18th Jun 2011 15:47
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@ Lucas + Slayer
Quote: "Also will this cause a problem in that the uninstaller will not remove the saved games and they are created programmatically and are not part of the install"


This is perfectly acceptable. Intel decided to accept this as it is similar to how other programs work such as "Microsoft Office Word". If you uninstall "Word" you would not expect all your docs to be deleted as well.


@baxslash
Quote: "it's just actual user intervention being required that would be a problem like having a button to click or something"


There are some user interventions that are permitted.
They accept the following installer user intervention;
1) "I accept the terms in the Licence Agreement" requires a tick box.
2) The UAC intervention caused by W7, "Do you want to allow the following program to make changes to this computer" requires a "YES" click.
3) Any "Next" button clicks because of the above is also accepted.

Edit: My last one passed validation with all of the above so either they accept these or there is some inconsistency in their testing procedures.

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_Pauli_
AGK Developer
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Location: Germany
Posted: 18th Jun 2011 20:01 Edited at: 18th Jun 2011 23:02
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Hi guys!
A lot of good information about AppUp you have here in this group! I'd be glad to join the group

Just a few questions that I have (sorry if some have been answered before, but I really don't want to read 600+ posts):

1) Is the AppUp service still free?
2) If it is still free and I publish a game through this service, am I forced to continue my membership (and pay for it when it isn't free anymore) in order to keep my game on there?
3) Is there something like a definitve guide to publishing a DarkGDK game on the AppUp store (basically from not even having an account to having a game up for sale)?
4) How will I receive payments? Paypal?
5) If I publish a game through AppUp, am I still allowed to sell that game elsewhere (e.g. Steam, etc.)?

Thanks in advance!

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Hodgey
15
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Joined: 10th Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posted: 19th Jun 2011 01:25 Edited at: 19th Jun 2011 01:28
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Hi Pauli, welcome aboard. We just need Baxslash to enscribe your name on the first post to make it official.

1. Yes it is still free.
2. Most probably.
3. I'm not sure.
4. I'm pretty sure it's through paypal.
5. Should be able to considering the game is yours (angry birds is on appup).

You can also have a read through the FAQs if you have any other questions

Oh, you should probably read the previous page of posts as it discusses code signing, an extra cost for indie developers.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Location: Duffield
Posted: 19th Jun 2011 12:50
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Save files: You can use IanM's plugin to easily find standard system folders such as "My Documents" and "AppData" which are ideal for creating files at runtime. All of my games use this method and it works fine.

Juney thanks for the extra info on installers. Didn't realise they'd relaxed the rules there...

_Pauli_ glad to have you aboard! Will you be publishing "Colony Defender"? It's a great game

In answer to your questions:
1) Yes, but you would have to pay $99 per year to keep your game/s on the store if / when they introduce the fee. My advice is get in early to see if your game will cover the cost...
2) ...see 1
3) I'm working on a simple guide more or less as published in the newsletter. The main difference is the code you would need for using the AppUp SDK. I can give you some of this as I have the code for the dll we use in DBP so I guess I might be able to add some help for DGDK. If anyone out there already published using DGDK it would be nice if they could share their experience so that I can include some code in the guide / newsletter.
4) Paypal is the standard method of payment at this time but if it's a real problem you could try contacting the support team through the Developer forums.
5) Any games you sell on AppUp you still own all the rights to and you can sell elsewhere or even give it away. The only thing you can't do is advertise the other places you sell your game from from within your game on AppUp.

Regarding Code Signing if anyone else has any objections to this please post them here so I can get a petition filled with comments from developers here...

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