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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / TGC App Developers Group

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DVader
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Posted: 25th Nov 2010 17:21 Edited at: 25th Nov 2010 17:32
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I would say I'm in too, but as I haven't actually published, but only thought about (and tested a few ideas), so far, would feel like a bit of a fraud. I don't mind testing peoples demos though, although not on a netbook as I don't own one Makes it frustrating to try to code for one when you can't test it every 5 mins on the appropriate device lol.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 25th Nov 2010 20:12
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Quote: "I would say I'm in too, but as I haven't actually published, but only thought about (and tested a few ideas), so far, would feel like a bit of a fraud. I don't mind testing peoples demos though, although not on a netbook as I don't own one Makes it frustrating to try to code for one when you can't test it every 5 mins on the appropriate device lol."

It's not some kind of exclusive club. If you want to help and learn then you're in.

You can test my stuff next time I have something ready.

With regard to making games for a platform you can't test it on I published four games on AppUp before I got mine! Granted there were a few issues/bugs I only just discovered now I have it but that's kind of the point of this group. I'd be happy to test any games you produce for AppUp to iron those bugs out first.

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Alfa x
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Posted: 25th Nov 2010 23:37
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Hi Baxlash.

Haven't read it all. If VanB and Darkcoder are in this mini-community put me in. I'm Interested.

Cheers.
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MMM
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 09:36 Edited at: 26th Nov 2010 09:47
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Vsync doesn't work on my 2008 model (1002HA WinXP) netbook. No idea why, didn't really seem like a big enough problem to bother solving. Caping the framerate is more obvious though.


Also some notes on sales...

One download a day for free programs with absolutely no marketing whatsoever is pretty standard, I'm finding. My non-marketed free games do better with downloads than my marketed 'paid' games. I'm not sure how big a difference the file-size factor makes on a download/purchase decision but it appears to be minimal among my own games - the number of downloads far outweighs the number of '24hr refunds' I'm happy to say. I haven't seen any statistics that suggest free demos drive better paid sales of full versions. I also haven't seen anything which suggests games on AppUp will generate their own 'buzz' outside that community without marketing - however I have concluded that marketing 'buzz' outside of AppUp will not drive sales/downloads within AppUp. None of this is proper research but could be useful for cross-referencing your own experiences.

Trillion Ball Demo | Trillion Art
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baxslash
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 09:47
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Quote: "Haven't read it all. If VanB and Darkcoder are in this mini-community put me in. I'm Interested."

Done! It's just an expression of interest and so people get an idea of who is interested or actively participating on AppUp really at the moment but glad to have you on board!

Quote: "Vsync doesn't work on my 2008 model (1002HA WinXP) netbook. No idea why, didn't really seem like a big enough problem to bother solving. Caping the framerate is more obvious though."

Worth knowing thanks MMM! I normally cap the framerate by decoupling the display loop and use TBM these days but it's a problem people may not have been aware of.

I'm thinking a decent DBP AppUp list of things to remember/tutorial might be in order. Maybe if we keep it open source so anyone can add their knowledge into it but keep one version with the best edit available to all? How about I put together a basic set of headings and people can add their own experience and do's/don'ts that they could return to me for editing?

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MMM
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 09:48
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Gah! Too quick for me. See edited post above...

Trillion Ball Demo | Trillion Art
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baxslash
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 10:07
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Thanks MMM, well worth knowing. I guess we'll get a better idea over time. I'm enjoying the experience.

Have you seen the latest competition for AppUp? The Dixons, Currys and PC World one? I think I'll enter. I have a couple of ideas but one in particular that might be fun anyway (even if I don't win). Here's a link anyway:
http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/dixons-challenge?cid=sw:IADPnews_Nov_Eng_019

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MMM
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 11:05
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On account of those entities not existing in my part of the world, I'm left a bit in the lurch. But I'd be happy to help you out if you have a cool idea.

Trillion Ball Demo | Trillion Art
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baxslash
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 12:01
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Thanks for the offer MMM! I'll let you know, however is the competition not open worldwide? I don't think you have to be from the UK to enter...

As for my cool idea I still need to do some speed tests first.

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Matty H
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 13:24 Edited at: 26th Nov 2010 13:26
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I have been looking at this comp too, I have a couple of ideas.

The obvious one is a virtual entertainment system designer, tell the app your room size/colours etc, window here or there and then place different entertainment systems of different makes and sizes and see which you like best.

The other idea is to point your webcam at an empty wall from a given distance and test out what different sized/model tv's look like in the room, I like this idea but its a pity webcams face toward you, should still work though.

I'll keep thinking but if I had a mega super idea I probably would not share ha ha

fulcrum physics - free collision/physics plug-in for DarkGDK
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Zeus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 02:20
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If I am building a game right now on the regular PC can it be easily integrated for the netbook?
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The Slayer
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 02:31 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 02:40
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Quote: "If I am building a game right now on the regular PC can it be easily integrated for the netbook? "

What you should do, is start of with 1024x600 as resolution, so that your images don't get stretched. If you start with a 'normal' resolution (i.e. 1024x768, 800x600, etc...), you'll get into trouble afterwards.
Also keep in mind that notebooks are less powerfull. And, keep the size of the images and models as low as possible.

Cheers

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!
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DVader
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 02:52 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 02:58
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Yes, most netbooks native res is 1024x600 but it depends on how you code your game, and the type of game you are making. The easy way is to simply make a game run at 1024x600 as you say, but ultimately you would want to include alternate options I would think, dependent on the style of game. I prefer to think of future upgrade ability rather than just the current netbook specs. Couldn't say for sure, but I bet there are some netbooks capable of higher res now, or if not, it won't take long before it changes. Sure, set the default res to 1024x600, but give the user options to improve if possible or degrade if they need a better frame rate.
Nothing special is needed to get a program to run on a Netbook. It is just a PC when it comes down to the crunch. The only problem I have had in getting them running is speed . Obviously I do not mean getting a program to work with the appup program, just on a netbook.

Obviously if you are making a 2D scroller or such, then setting the res in stone is probably a good idea, but if it's a 3D affair, optional resolutions are a must for me.

So in answer, yes, it will probably run as of now if the res is supported.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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Zeus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 06:48
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Thanks for the answers everyone. The game is in 3d, I will make the PC version first I believe and then worry about making the images and changing the screen res for the netbook.
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baxslash
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 12:16
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Quote: "I have been looking at this comp too, I have a couple of ideas.

The obvious one is a virtual entertainment system designer, tell the app your room size/colours etc, window here or there and then place different entertainment systems of different makes and sizes and see which you like best.

The other idea is to point your webcam at an empty wall from a given distance and test out what different sized/model tv's look like in the room, I like this idea but its a pity webcams face toward you, should still work though."

Some good ideas there matty!

Look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm playing with diggsey's Box2D plugin at the moment. It works really well on my netbook and I'm having loads of ideas!! Exciting stuff. I'll keep you all posted on performance.

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Zeus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 22:29
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The Box2D plugin is a Zeus-send huh?
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DVader
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 18:19 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 18:23
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I have a little demo I would like tested if possible. Just to see what sort of performance you get on netbooks and normal computers as well. I have been working on this for a week or so now and although there is a long way to go, I would like to see if performance is already an issue. I have put in every option I can think of to allow the user to configure it for their spec to get semi decent performance (I hope). It seems fairly stable on my 2 systems I can test it on, apart from the target display which on my lower spec system has a box instead of the four corner edges that should display. Some graphics card issue or screen setup issue but so far unable to solve that. I can get round it if I don't find a way to create in game without the bug.



I'll pop the demo up shortly. lol weird if you look at that pic long enoug it seems as if the planets are moving slightly

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081

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thenerd
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 18:23
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download?

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Zeus
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 18:51
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Nice graphics!
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baxslash
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 18:55
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Happy to test on my netbook but... where's the download?

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DVader
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 19:54 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 22:06
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Sorry lol had visitors, will pop it up now.

Edit - Forgot to give instructions.
If you have any issues with illegal screen size delete init.dat from the main directory, and it should reset to your desktop res.

Standard wasd controls for the space station demo.
Arrow keys control your ship in the space demo.
Z and x are accelerate and decelerate. Holding ctrl at same time increases thrust or brakes.
Tab key cycles targets.
O and P key to alter the screen size in game on both demos. Still messy as I haven't hid the edges yet.
To change either screen resolution or vysnc you will need to exit and restart the demo for the changes to take effect.

I am sure everyone here will know this, but to get max frame rate you will need to disable vsync(default anyway) and set the frame rate to 0. The other settings are there to hopefully let users configure it to run at a rate they find acceptable. I might even do a test and try to auto configure this stuff before I am finished. obviously leaving the settings to be changed if wanted.

Let me know how it runs and what sort of settings you need to use to get it running best. I am guessing 30 fps at best for notebooks (with bloom).
Oh I apologize for the fairly crappy midi tune and the volume, but couldn't change it any lower
Demo updated with new exe for any future uploads (hopefully this works).

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081

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baxslash
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 21:27
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Doesn't run. The display size needs to be under 1024x600 in your IDE before you set the display size manually in-game.

Display size is un-supported...

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DVader
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 21:34 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 21:41
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Even if you delete the init.dat file? The res should run at whatever the desktop is to start with. The options are set so the higher res ones won't work on a netbook. Mine defaults to 1920x1200 as it is my desktop. But if you delete the init.dat file and then set the res to 1024x600 it should work...
The only problem I can think of you could have is if you have a res I haven't thought of, the init file may save oddly. Will test out an odd res myself.
Works ok for me even with an unsupported res, just means you can never get it back after changing it, without deleting the array at the min. Still rough around the edges as yet I suppose.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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The Slayer
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 21:42
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Quote: "But if you delete the init.dat file and then set the res to 1024x600 it should work..."

No, it probably won't. You need to set the resolution in the editor to 800x600 or lower in order for it to run on a netbook. Not by setting the resolution with the command, but by setting it in the editor.

Cheers

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!
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DVader
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 21:46 Edited at: 29th Nov 2010 20:52
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It's set to full desktop 1280x1024 so that may be stopping it running maybe. Will update it. Just shows the little things that can stop a game running on a system.
Here is an update of the exe using full desktop 800x600 initially.

Anyone had a chance to check the new update out? I'm working on the layout of the space station at the moment as the one included is a basic test to start, also a little better size for downloading, as the proper map is a fair bit bigger. I would appreciate knowing if it at least works on a netbook now Forgot about the editor overriding the set display commands res, obviously not noticing on either of my test rigs as they both run hi resolutions.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081

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baxslash
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 21:49
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I get between 8 and 15 fps on the space-station and around 25 fps in space.

Looks great though!

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DVader
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 22:54 Edited at: 29th Nov 2010 22:57
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Eek! I thought the fps bit would struggle, although not that much Was that with the bloom effect on or off? Did it improve if you shrink the screen down using o and p in game also?
Thanks for the test, least I know it runs now The fps bit is gonna be a struggle on the netbook I think. If knocking the settings down to basics, disabling vsync and capping the fps to 25 doesn't work can't think of anything else, and that is only a test level The full one will be way more complex in all plus extra code for the game play lol.
If that is what you got at higher settings but with default 1024x600 res and bloom then it is doing ok I suppose.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 23:57
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Quote: "Was that with the bloom effect on or off?"

Off

Quote: "Did it improve if you shrink the screen down using o and p in game also?"

Not really, sorry!

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MMM
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Posted: 30th Nov 2010 09:24
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Sorry to change the subject but I have some more general news about the AppUp outsource process. As you know, Intel outsources all its AppUp stuff now; between the IADP dashboard, AppUp.com and the AppUp client, it can be hard to know just exactly how well our programs are doing.

My news is this:
I have run some tests and confirmed that the AppUp client will update game statistics before the IADP dashboard.

This was always implied by Intel, but I've never seen any evidence of the fact until now. I basically hooked up a bunch of netbooks running friends' accounts and downloaded one of my free games multiple times simultaneously. The client updated within 24 hours. The IADP dashboard took almost two days. For reference, the numbers displayed on my dashboard have always been lower than the numbers displayed in the client - I guess this is why.

Trillion Ball Demo | Trillion Art
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baxslash
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Posted: 30th Nov 2010 10:30 Edited at: 30th Nov 2010 10:31
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Yeah, I noticed that too MMM. Well done on checking it though!

Trillion Ball looks like fun, I'll download it tonight!!

EDIT: How about I post a list of free and paid games by DBP/DGDK developers in the first post?

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DVader
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Posted: 30th Nov 2010 14:56
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That's a good idea

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 30th Nov 2010 18:39
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Anyone want to test my next AppUp project (attached)?

The first part is a level editor:
right click to add the object shown
"1" to change the object
click and drag to move objects

The second part is a test for a "time bomb" weapon:
Click and drag to throw the bomb and start it ticking
Aim is to hit the target

It's a bit like "Angry Birds"...

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MMM
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 09:21
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Oh wow - as per the latest newsletter, this is about to get heavy.



Also, Baxslash, I'll try out your game when I get home from work.

Trillion Ball Demo | Trillion Art
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baxslash
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 10:03
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Quote: "Oh wow - as per the latest newsletter, this is about to get heavy."

The ADK looks pretty darned good! I hope it won't cost too much...

The only other thing is there is no mention of a new forum area.

Quote: "I'll try out your game when I get home from work"

Thanks. Not really a game yet as it's not got any goals and the bomb doesn't disapear after 'exploding' but I wanted a little feedback on how it performs as there seem to be varying performance issues.

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The Slayer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 14:22
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Quote: "Oh wow - as per the latest newsletter, this is about to get heavy."

Hum yeah, I just read it too. Interesting!

Quote: "The ADK looks pretty darned good! I hope it won't cost too much..."

Indeed, let's hope so.

Quote: "Anyone want to test my next AppUp project (attached)?"

I had a play with it. Didn't get any trouble running it on my PC. Can't say how good it runs on a netbook, since I don't have one. But, the physics are really great! Must be the Box 2D plugin, right?

Cheers

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baxslash
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 14:31
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Quote: "Must be the Box 2D plugin, right?"

Yep. I'm just getting to grips with it as a large part of the reason for this project...

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DVader
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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 15:46 Edited at: 5th Dec 2010 14:56
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This ADK sounds nice. Very similar to unity by the sounds. Wonder what the price will be?

Edit tried your demo baxslash, very nice, runs well on my PC. Probably better suited to a netbook than my project at the min. I'll have to have a look at that add on your using, could be nice for a platformer or quite a few arcade style games.
If anyone else has tried my Spacetrader demo on the prior page, I'd still appreciate any performance reports both netbook or pc Basic specs and settings you found best performance at would be very interesting. Thanks!

Edit - Just wondering if anyone owns a Asus 1015PN here? Are they much faster than the more standard netbooks? Apparently they are better at 3D than most netbooks as they have nvidia gpu and an improved dual core proccessor, 1.5 ghz. Just wondering how far and fast the netbooks are advancing, they seem to have been fairly samey for a long time. Hopefully AMD might get the ball rolling a bit next year.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 13th Dec 2010 11:17 Edited at: 15th Dec 2010 13:21
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Lee has posted a couple of videos on setting up MeeGo. For anyone currently developing on AppUp this means you can develop for the platform which is used on phones, smart TVs, tablet PCs and netbooks.

Check out part one of two videos here:


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DVader
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Posted: 13th Dec 2010 18:14 Edited at: 13th Dec 2010 19:58
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No idea I'm afraid I have tried it myself before with no luck. I have to get one of these new Netbuke's Looks interesting, watched the os install bit, which is standard stuff, not sure about how DB works with this though? Is it for another dev system? Sounds like linux from what I have seen.
I have another demo I wouldn't mind testing as my spacetrader game looks like a PC only title for now . Not done too much just like to know if it runs well, and how many objects you can plonk down before it becomes unplayable.
Keys:-
Arrowkeys move around the map.
+/- keys zoom in out.
[ ] keys change view angle.
1,2,3 changes current object.
Z,x moves enemy object left right.
Shift, control moves enemy object up down.
Left click mouse to place current object.

The test enemy is just a block sitting on the map atm. You can move it around to test turret movement.
I can get 1000 objects before it begins to slow slightly on my system. Not a lot, but it falls below 60 fps at that point. I have made it as low poly as possible for now to see what I am working with (Netbook wise).

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081

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baxslash
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Posted: 13th Dec 2010 19:46
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Actually I don't know if DBP works on MeeGo. Haven't tried it yet...

Couldn't try the game I'm afraid as the display settings are too high for my netbook (1024x786 I assume).

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DVader
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Posted: 13th Dec 2010 19:56 Edited at: 14th Dec 2010 20:49
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Doubt it, as it looks linux based. Seems to be Qt creator they are using on the vid. Some c++ cross platform app for linux, I beleive.
Dang it lol, made sure it was set low in the editor beforehand but forgot to alter the res in the game lmao, oh dear, the perils of not having one to play with lol. Will update it good job it small
Edit - Above demo now at the correct res. Sorry about that.
Another Edit - If DB does work on meego then I defo will be investing in a cheap linux £100 or so netbook! It is supposed to be cross platform, whatever native os it is actually using Certainly interesting.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Dec 2010 10:09
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I thought I'd give a quick update regarding sales, just to give people an idea of my experience so far (about 2 months) on AppUp.

I have 7 Apps available on AppUp of which 3 are free Demos. The demos are regularly downloaded and numbers of downloads are increasing (on all fronts). My two most successful games so far are:

The Last Stand
Demo downloads - 72
Game downloads - 5

Search-Lite
Demo downloads - 60
Game downloads - 0 (only just published due to some kind of admin error by Intel)

I only have three other downloads from my other games but with favorable reviews for all the games.

Taking TLS as an example of a fully published game that has been available for a while I'm getting roughly 1 download per day of which about 8-10% are sales but this appears to be increasing.

I think the right game could make a lot of sales in the long run and I can tell for sure that after a few initial sales and good reviews sales of the paid game increased.

Doesn't sound like a lot but I'm optimistic that if I can get a good 'bank' of the right kind of game on AppUp it could pay dividends.

On an aside does anyone want to add their games to the list I started on the first post? I thought it might be nice to show what was available from TGC products. Also I might by a copy of them to try and review as and when I can afford them...

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DVader
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Posted: 18th Dec 2010 19:16
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You got the youtube embed working then? How did you manage it in the end? The couple of ways I have tried never seem to work.
Quick question for anyone here who has used dark physics on a netbook. I have been playing with ode for awhile, but got annoyed at it's limits and thought I'd use my dark physics instead, seeing as I have yet to make a complete game using it. The reason I avoided it so far mainly is the extra drivers required, thinking ode would be more compact. So having made a small demo with dark physics, I have tried to run it on my brothers netbook. I couldn't get it to run the physics engine at all. Even after installing the physx drivers. Does physx even run on an intel onboard video card? Do I have to go back to older drivers for non nvidia support? It would be nice to know why it would not get past the basic menu screen. Defo a driver prob, but as I installed physx and checked the netbooks video driver (up to date) I thought it would work. I can only think it needs an older driver, or, will not work at all, and I am pretty sure that would not be the case. Next chance I get I will find an older driver and try but probably won't get to test it on a netbook for a week or more now.
If anyone has got dark Physics working on a non nvidia based netbook, let me know. I would like to actually get it running next time I go over to try it.
The menu screen looked nice and fast though lol.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Dec 2010 21:43
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Quote: "You got the youtube embed working then? How did you manage it in the end? The couple of ways I have tried never seem to work."

[.youtube]IWEI77U8FHE[./youtube] (take out fullstops and put just the text part at the end of the link in the middle.

Quote: "Does physx even run on an intel onboard video card? Do I have to go back to older drivers for non nvidia support? It would be nice to know why it would not get past the basic menu screen. Defo a driver prob, but as I installed physx and checked the netbooks video driver (up to date) I thought it would work. I can only think it needs an older driver, or, will not work at all, and I am pretty sure that would not be the case. Next chance I get I will find an older driver and try but probably won't get to test it on a netbook for a week or more now.
If anyone has got dark Physics working on a non nvidia based netbook, let me know. I would like to actually get it running next time I go over to try it."

I have a game I can test using PhysX. I'll let you know ASAP...

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DVader
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Posted: 19th Dec 2010 14:32 Edited at: 19th Dec 2010 14:37
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Ah nice one. Will be interested to see if you have any problems or not. It must be possible as phys x used to work on non phys x based machines (no phys x card just software). I think an old phyx driver from before nvidia took over should work, but as my netbook tests are limited to when I can physically drive over to my brothers to test it, can't test that idea for awhile, and didn't think of it while over there yesterday .

Just testing. Seeing if the You tube thing works. Not a lot to do with appup though.


Just a demo I did about 6 months back. As it is a little too big to post the actual demo, thought I'd show a vid.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Dec 2010 10:30
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I think I just laughed up a hairball!! Nice 'test' video

I'll get a chance to test PhysX this week I hope but I'm trying to get the working version of Backlash out this week too. I finally got it working.

Turns out I get double the framerate by going fullscreen exclusive rather than fulldesktop. Actually I start in fulldesktop then use "set window off" and hey presto my framerate goes from 15-20 fps to 30-40fps...

I knew it would help but it's actually saved the game from oblivion. Full and Demo versions ready for Beta testing this week!

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DVader
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Posted: 20th Dec 2010 13:35 Edited at: 20th Dec 2010 13:39
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Full screen exclusive has always been faster for me. Only problem there is the media issue if you task swap. I know it's supposed to be possible to reload everything when this happens, but haven't had much luck in the past trying it. Regarding Physx still not got a definate answer as I have no access to a netbook, but have checked with someone I know who has an ATI system. He has the nvidia physx drivers on and it works ok. It is (hopefully) just a matter of getting older windows xp compatible physx drivers I think.... Of course that means if I were to make a physx app I need to have drivers not only for modern win 7 systems, but also older o/s's like xp and vista! The potential problems of plugins lol. Just a pity it is so much better than ode in the main.

Glad you liked my vid

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Dec 2010 13:40
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For me the main problem using PhysX is checking whether it is already installed. I've been trying to get a reliable check for the drivers... any luck with that?

These are the drivers I've been using:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/physx_9.09.0814.html

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DVader
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Posted: 20th Dec 2010 15:11
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Ah mine are slightly newer ones by the looks. I'll try these on a netbook when I get chance. Not even though about checking for if it is already installed as yet. I would imagine there is a standard registry key you can check for it. It lists physx in add remove programs or programs and features for win 7 users, so must be possible. I haven't played with registry stuff in DB as yet though. I am sure it should be possible to check the registry for the physx details, I've seen others do it for other things. You could possibly even just simply check for the .dll files it installs on the system. If they are there, it is more than likely installed

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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The Slayer
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Posted: 20th Dec 2010 15:24
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Quote: "Of course that means if I were to make a physx app I need to have drivers not only for modern win 7 systems, but also older o/s's like xp and vista!"

If you're designing for the netbook, then you can skip the Vista drivers issue. Vista isn't supported on netbooks, as far as I know.

Cheers

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!
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