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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / TGC App Developers Group

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Battoad
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 14:05 Edited at: 19th Jun 2011 14:52
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Quote: "Regarding Code Signing if anyone else has any objections to this please post them here so I can get a petition filled with comments from developers here..."


Hi baxslash, I think the code signing is a good idea, well for those who use Vista or W7, but i strongly object to the annual fee for this. Although they are going to provide f.o.c for 1 year, sooner or later this and the $99 user fee make it unviable for me, and i guess many others. After all, they already take 30% of any sales so why punish the small programmer even more. The larger companies are uploading 30+ Appups at a time and although it is thought that removing the small individual programmers might have a big impact, it won't.
Without something more assuring from Intel for the long term future making it affordable to all, I cannot see any logic in investing more time in creating for their store. Clearly the AppGameKit is the obvious next step until a TGC web browser option becomes available.

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baxslash
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 15:14
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I was hoping for more support 'anti' the idea but thanks for your opinion anyway Juney

I can't see them wanting to pay for the code signing for us though can you? If they bring it in it'll be the small developers that are hit.

Whether it will make an impact or not is a matter of opinion, personally I think indie developers tend to have more imaginative ideas (because they don't have the resources) and that the store will be at a loss without them.

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Battoad
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 16:19 Edited at: 19th Jun 2011 16:41
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Quote: "I was hoping for more support 'anti' the idea "


From Intels point of view it is understandable that they don't really want the Appups W7 installer starting off by saying this Appup is from a non-trusted publisher. I also dislike this, but so far we have accepted it. It would be good if our software was classed as "trusted" but the high certificate costs mean that this just won't happen for me. So although the idea is good, the charging aspect is unacceptable, and its this part that makes me "anti" the idea, but as they are going to insist on it I don't see why they don't pay for it. Having a certificate doesn't really mean that you are a trusted publisher, it simply means that you have paid for a certificate that says you are. Put that to them as part of the anti - idea.
Lets face it, even TGC don't have one for DBPro and that must surely be down to simply cost.

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baxslash
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 18:50
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I see your point Juney, it's a good one. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just thought you were accepting it and deciding to move on rather than coming up with a reasonable argument against it which you have more than done here.

I agree that if Intel want to make the Apps they sell appear more trustworthy then they must be willing to at least suppliment the cost which (to a small indie developer) is an additional cost.

Making sure developers follow good coding practice is never a bad idea and ensuring that they are trustworthy is also good but it would be nice if Intel would help the little guys to achieve that goal!

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Battoad
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 21:26
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Thanks baxslash, I hope we can get some negotiation going with Intel to help all Indie Developers.
And no, I havent moved on as I am currently working on 3 more Appups, but Intel must be made to realise how insecure their intentions make us feel, and that by proceeding with an unaided additional annual costing can only have one outcome for a lot of us.

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 19th Jun 2011 23:52 Edited at: 19th Jun 2011 23:58
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Quote: "Will you be publishing "Colony Defender"? It's a great game"


Thanks! Yes, that's the game I'm about to publish. I'm quite excited about it, because that's my first full release ever

Quote: "I'm working on a simple guide more or less as published in the newsletter"


Do you refer to what Lee wrote in newsletter issue 86? He had some useful information there!

I'll have a closer look at the AppUp SDK as soon as I created my account.

Quote: "Paypal is the standard method of payment"


I have a usual Paypal account. Do I need to change anything about that to be able to receive payments?

While writing this I just had a look at the previous page and what was written about the validation thing:

Damn, that's bad news for me! Am I right in assuming that the whole publishing through AppUp will cost me at least 199$ a year? That's quite a lot! I mean my game will just be up there on page 123 with probably hundrets of other games. I'm not sure if I can gain enough out of a game to compensate the cost!
And I don't know if I have enough spare time to produce multiple games a year, that meet my own goals for quality.
I mean the other cheaper option in my eyes would be to open up my own website and sell it from there with some kind of self-made authentification process and just hand out individual product keys after receiving Paypal payments. Then do some kind of viral marketing or something, using trailers, social networks and the like...

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Matty H
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 00:29
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Is it correct that TGC will still publish any games we create if they are up to a certain standard? If so then this may be the best option if we are just planning on releasing one or two games.

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 00:47
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Oh your right, I didn't think about that! I may have to contact TGC about it.

And I checked out Steam and they have a service called Steamworks where it's about publishing games for free! But I imagine they have quite high standarts for accepting games to be published...
And I don't know what percentage of each sale they take, as they do not give this kind of information to the public.

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 11:45
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Quote: "I have a usual Paypal account. Do I need to change anything about that to be able to receive payments?"

No that's all I have...

Quote: "Damn, that's bad news for me! Am I right in assuming that the whole publishing through AppUp will cost me at least 199$ a year? That's quite a lot! I mean my game will just be up there on page 123 with probably hundrets of other games. I'm not sure if I can gain enough out of a game to compensate the cost!
And I don't know if I have enough spare time to produce multiple games a year, that meet my own goals for quality.
I mean the other cheaper option in my eyes would be to open up my own website and sell it from there with some kind of self-made authentification process and just hand out individual product keys after receiving Paypal payments. Then do some kind of viral marketing or something, using trailers, social networks and the like..."

I would do both. You might just have a hit game and you will have lost nothing as it is still going to be free for another year. Also you'll get a free code signing certificate... at this point there is still no additional cost.

Quote: "Is it correct that TGC will still publish any games we create if they are up to a certain standard? If so then this may be the best option if we are just planning on releasing one or two games."

Yes they will but I imagine they will want to make sure the games they publish are up to a certain standard. By that I just mean they may ask you to work on certain features or even help with your code to some extent.

I've always found TGC to be very helpful.

Quote: "And I checked out Steam and they have a service called Steamworks where it's about publishing games for free! But I imagine they have quite high standarts for accepting games to be published...
And I don't know what percentage of each sale they take, as they do not give this kind of information to the public."

It'll be worth looking into for sure. Just don't rule AppUp out yet as there are a LOT of people using it now.

Quote: "I hope we can get some negotiation going with Intel to help all Indie Developers.
And no, I havent moved on as I am currently working on 3 more Appups, but Intel must be made to realise how insecure their intentions make us feel, and that by proceeding with an unaided additional annual costing can only have one outcome for a lot of us."

I'm sure we can have some kind of impact but if not at least we can say we tried. Glad to hear you're still working on new games Juney!

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 12:04
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Quote: "it is still going to be free for another year"


So just to make it clear:
If I put a game up on AppUp right now, I don't have to pay anything for one year?

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 12:13
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Quote: "If I put a game up on AppUp right now, I don't have to pay anything for one year?"

As far as I am aware that is the case as far as Code Signing is concerned but they could introduce the yearly $99 fee at any time. That said I have heard no rumors that this is likely in the near future and they recently announced that the fees were being waived again which makes me think there's nearly another year (at least) before they'll take another look at introducing the fee...

Basically I would suggest to anyone that if they want to publish a game / app then AppUp is the cheapest and easiest way I am aware of to get a fairly decent amount of exposure on a new and upcoming platform.

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 13:34 Edited at: 20th Jun 2011 13:42
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Quote: "they could introduce the yearly $99 fee at any time"

...but as I read it, when you sign up you are signed up for 12 months. So even if it was introduced tomorrow, you would not need to pay anything until your current 12 months had come to an end. If you plan to release anything in the next 12 months, get signed up now!

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 13:50
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Quote: "...but as I read it, when you sign up you are signed up for 12 months. So even if it was introduced tomorrow, you would not need to pay anything until your current 12 months had come to an end. If you plan to release anything in the next 12 months, get signed up now!"

Right that does sound correct. It's been a while since I looked into it but I guess you only just signed up right?

Yes, if it's a yearly fee then they can't ask you to pay it until a year after you signed up. They are just waiving people having to pay it at the moment.

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mr_d
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 14:57 Edited at: 20th Jun 2011 14:58
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Hey Guys,

For all those people that said they couldn't try my MinimalMSIMaker (now re-badged as "MiniMSIMaker" as this is a bit easier on the tongue) as they had more than 1 level of sub-folders of their game; you now have no more excuses
Here is my latest uploaded version (v0.06) with the improvement of allowing multiple sub-folders to be part of your game packaged folders. i.e. if your game is in ..\MyGame_v1.0\ then you can have ..\MyGame_v1.0\Images, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Images\Textures, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Music, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Data, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Data\AI, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Data\AI\Enemy, ..\MyGame_v1.0\Data\AI\Ally, etc.

As always, feedback on any problems, requests for improvements, and reports of successful use, would be gladly accepted and appreciated. Enjoy!
Linky ---> http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=185508&b=8

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 15:15
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Nice work mr_d! I will definitely test ASAP. I'm still waiting to hear if "Football Factors passed validation, if it doesn't you'll be hearing from me

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mr_d
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 15:23
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Thanks baxslash, that's good to hear. Don't know whether to hope that Football Factors passes or not I'll be waiting patiently...

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 15:29
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My game is also submitted, but I'll definitely try it next time I have to create a package. It can be a pain when you create everything and run it through Orca...then realise you have to make a minor amendment. If your tool removes this pain then it's worth using

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mr_d
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 15:44
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Yep, that's the idea; the less pain the better

I know you and baxslash have already submitted your games, but I just had the thought and was wondering if you guys could sort of do a dry run (as you know what all the Orca fiddling business is all about) - maybe you can at least check to see that the the MSI installer that it builds looks ok at least theoretically?

no pressure and I accept that you have much better things to do with your time...I know I should

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 16:15
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Quote: "I know you and baxslash have already submitted your games, but I just had the thought and was wondering if you guys could sort of do a dry run (as you know what all the Orca fiddling business is all about) - maybe you can at least check to see that the the MSI installer that it builds looks ok at least theoretically?"

I haven't personally used Orca yet as I've been using VS2008 but the details of how to edit the MSI using Orca can be found here:
https://forumfiles.thegamecreators.com/download/2185582

Why not have a look yourself and you might spot something that you had missed before anyone even tries it out?

Just a suggestion

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mr_d
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 16:28
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yep - I've looked through that and compared the output of the installer created with my tool, and it all looks good from my eyes (well there is 1 difference about needing to delete a shortcut or something which I left in, but it looks like it's pointing correctly to the right files in my build).
I just wanted a second opinion; but that's ok; I'll wait it out. Thanks for your suggestion.

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Battoad
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 19:32
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@ mr_d
I'll try to get a look at yr MiniMSIImaker as well, I think i've got the hang of Orca now so hope to identify probs or suitability on a dry run as my Appups are not ready yet.

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Battoad
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 22:25
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I did a quick test, or tried to, but ran into trouble. Your program installed fine, looks good as well, but after running it and having selected the WIX folder and mygame.exe and clicking create installer, it came up with error "couldn't find candle.exe in wix".
Not the exact wording but hopefully points you in right direction.

I uninstalled your program using your included uninstall file and that works ok, although i havent tested whether Control Panel/programs/uninstall OR re-running the msi does the same.

I don't think copying candle.exe from elsewhere and pasting in the WIX folder is a suitable solution for everyone so hope you have some ideas.

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 22:29
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My game failed on launch from AppUp, maybe if I can get the client working properly I'll be in a possition to test too over the next week...

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 22:59
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The client seems to be very unstable right now. I did several uninstalls and reinstalls to get it working.

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baxslash
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Posted: 20th Jun 2011 23:10 Edited at: 20th Jun 2011 23:11
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Me too but to no avail...

Here's my box2D worms clone with grappling hooks in action (placeholder graphics for rope):


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DVader
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 00:35 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 00:42
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@Juney, "couldn't find candle.exe in wix", lol close, but it's in the wind! Joke Hope all is going well for everyone, seems a lot of activity for new projects at the min! My projects still plod on, but graphics are hindering progress at the min. I have this annoying problem of not being able to concentrate on both (graphics and programming), either I do graphics and like to watch the program unfold before me, or I want the graphics done so I can concentrate on coding. I really hate working on everything .

My lunar Lander project is fairly good code wise, just that I need to update my lander and main mother-ship graphics for starters and as said, I am not a fan of media creation. To spend several hours in a 3D package to get, say my main lander updated, keeps putting me off . I am sure I will get down to it eventually, just keep finding new projects to play with rather than getting current project graphics completed

Edit - Baxslash, I notice your screenshot has mode 7 listed Does that mean SNES zoomy, twistyness? Or just a mode you have listed without any ref to the snes at all Just wondering

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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mr_d
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 01:21
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@Juney
Quote: "I'll try to get a look at yr MiniMSIImaker as well, I think i've got the hang of Orca now so hope to identify probs or suitability on a dry run as my Appups are not ready yet."

Thanks, the more eyes the better
Quote: "I did a quick test, or tried to, but ran into trouble. Your program installed fine, looks good as well, but after running it and having selected the WIX folder and mygame.exe and clicking create installer, it came up with error "couldn't find candle.exe in wix"."

That is very strange indeed; if you were able to select your Wix folder successfully, all it should do is look for the candle.exe file in that folder...could you confirm that that file is there?
It could possibly be a case of case, so please try renaming the candle.exe file to all lower case to see if it finds it

@BatVink
Quote: "The client seems to be very unstable right now. I did several uninstalls and reinstalls to get it working."

That's another strange one...I'm using "Install Creator" from ClickTeam for my package at the moment as I've found that to be the best balance in terms of power and ease of use - maybe I'll have to start using my own installer to package my install maker

@baxslash
Quote: "Me too but to no avail..."

Sorry to hear that. Maybe it's because it's installing by default into Program Files and the security that is in place around that area. Could you try installing to another (less strict) location to see if that helps? It also seems to be a bit of a large package (coming in at 10Mb), so maybe it was corrupted in the download?

I know I'm grasping at straws, but just when I have some willing testers able to do said testing, all these issues are found - I know that that's the purpose of testing but still....

OT @ Anyone that is interested
BTW, Good news!!! (for me anyway and possibly for you too).
I have just been notified that my Online Scoreboard has been accepted onto the AppUp store as a Developer Component - Yay!
So now, people developing for AppUp will be able to use my app to include this functionality into their own apps. Yay again!
Check it out: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/b/devcatalog/p-5179-online-scoreboard.aspx
Oh, and it's currently FREE!!!

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Lucas Tiridath
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 01:40
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@BatVink
Sorry for the slow response but thanks for the tips! It's only been so long because I've been busy implementing the new directories in RADAR. That and setting up my netbook for testing.

@ mr_d
Congratulations on getting your component accepted! I had a play around with your Mini MSI Maker but - OK I know I'm going to look stupid here - where can I find the msi it creates? The creation of the installer seemed to go through fine but I couldn't find the msi anywhere.. As for the thing with candle.exe, I found that this problem stopped when I pointed to the bin folder in the main WiX folder. The executable was in there.

Right well I've finally submitted RADAR for validation having got it running on three different machines. Thanks everyone for all your help so far with testing and wish me luck

Oh and also, about this signing fee.. I expect I'm missing something here but what is this fee actually going to pay for? My Android account cost me $25 if I remember correctly and that's for lifetime membership and yet I have to sign my apps there too. However all it seems to involve is me running my compiled app through a couple of programs myself before I upload it. Where's the cost? I understand why AppUp will eventually need to charge more for membership as they are doing validation unlike Android Market and so have greater overheads but what's the difference with the signing? Or am I just getting confused and will this signing be something different?
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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 01:59
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Quote: "Quote: "The client seems to be very unstable right now. I did several uninstalls and reinstalls to get it working."
That's another strange one"


Sorry mr_d, I was talking about the AppUp client, not your program.

Congratulations on getting your Online Highscore component on the AppUp list. I know from making my own that it will save people a lot of time, especially if they don't have web/PHP experience, or their own site.

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DVader
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 03:40
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I would love to try some of these things out but for some reason I cannot download anything off appup as of yet , even when I can remember my login details, lol, I have them somewhere I am sure, just there amongst about 18000 other mails I have neglected to delete over time :p . I even have a receipt for 2 programs that failed to download when I did log in.. I haven't had much luck with appup since it began for some reason (downloading stuff from the site-wise, my lack of programs is my own problem lol).

Has anyone else had problems with getting downloads off the site?

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 10:16
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Quote: "Has anyone else had problems with getting downloads off the site?"


Yes there's a few of us experiencing problems at the moment. I would suggest uninstalling and reinstalling. BUT make sure you reboot after uninstall. It's tempting to miss this step, but I think this is what finally fixed it for me.

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baxslash
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 10:52
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Quote: "Sorry mr_d, I was talking about the AppUp client, not your program."

So was I

Quote: "Congratulations on getting your Online Highscore component on the AppUp list. I know from making my own that it will save people a lot of time, especially if they don't have web/PHP experience, or their own site."

Yes, well done mr_d! I'll be using it for my worms clone.

Quote: "Has anyone else had problems with getting downloads off the site?"

Yes!!! Update and reinstall as suggested by batvink. Make sure to reboot I'll be trying this again tonight if I get the time...

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baxslash
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 11:10 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 11:10
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I've gone through allowed list for code signing given out by Intel and only quickly but it looks like these are the best costs (in order):

Go Daddy - $30.87 / Year
Trust Centre - 69 Euro / Year
Comodo - $110.95 / Year
Globasign - £129 / Year
Chosen Security $199 / Year
Verisign $499 / Year
Thawte - $539 / 2 Years


Go Daddy seems the cheapest (and friendliest name )...

I guess if that price is correct it's not such a raw deal. What does everybody think?

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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 12:10 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 12:11
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Quote: "I guess if that price is correct it's not such a raw deal. What does everybody think?"


I would go by your previous advice in this thread Baxslash. Get your first app under your belt (Probably a brown belt once you've got an app released!) and use the funds to release future apps.

Someone once told me that buying your first house is the hardest part, after that you can keep on buying (He has 7 houses he rents out!). On that theory, releasing apps should be far easier a proposition

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Hodgey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 12:57
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@ Mr.d congratulations I might use it as well if/when I get around to making an online highscore board.

@ Baxslash, the Go Daddy one seemed like a really good deal so I went onto their website and it told me that it was $169/yr for 2 years or $188/yr for one year. I hope I'm looking at the wrong prices but I couldn't find $30/yr.

Quote: "I would go by your previous advice in this thread Baxslash. Get your first app under your belt (Probably a brown belt once you've got an app released!) and use the funds to release future apps."

I think this is the best method for now. The app just might pay for itself overtime.

I haven't been able to look at it in depth but there are revenue sacrificing deals for promotion aren't there? Has anyone tried it? It may be worth taking intel up on those deals.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 13:04
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Quote: "the Go Daddy one seemed like a really good deal so I went onto their website and it told me that it was $169/yr for 2 years or $188/yr for one year. I hope I'm looking at the wrong prices but I couldn't find $30/yr."

Could be I was looking in the wrong place. I'll take another look...

Quote: "I haven't been able to look at it in depth but there are revenue sacrificing deals for promotion aren't there? Has anyone tried it? It may be worth taking intel up on those deals."

I haven't heard of that. Do you have a link?

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Hodgey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 13:09 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 13:09
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Quote: "I haven't heard of that. Do you have a link?"

It is mentioned in the FAQ under Payment Questions - second dot point. This is the only place I've seen it and I have no idea what the rates are like.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 13:17
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Quote: "Developers can choose to use some of their revenue in exchange things like promotion"

I see. Probably worth it for us new developers. If it gets your App more widely shown on the client / website it might well be worth looking into.

Thanks for pointing that out Hodgey!

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mr_d
DBPro Tool Maker
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 13:24 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 13:25
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@All
Thanks everyone for the well wishes I know that this component isn't as spiffy as it could be (and I hope to be steadily improving it over time), but the thrill of getting it published is so cool

@Lucas
Quote: "...where can I find the msi it creates? The creation of the installer seemed to go through fine but I couldn't find the msi anywhere..."

If all went well, the msi should be located in the same folder as your game exe that you selected. If it's not there then something went wrong and you should check the Wix log files (the final popup should tell you where these will be located).
Strange about the location of the candle.exe file - on my inatll (of v3.5) it doesn't have a bin folder, and the files are just in the main wix folder...

@BatVink
Quote: "Sorry mr_d, I was talking about the AppUp client, not your program."

Whew! well that's one concern off my mind I got worried when everyone seemed to say it wasn't working for them. I thought I may have to go back and try installing VB6 back onto my (Win7) PC (which I wasn't looking forward to).

@baxslash
Quote: "So was I"

Again (as above), this is a concern lifted off my mind.
Quote: "Go Daddy - $30.87 / Year"

Quote: "I guess if that price is correct it's not such a raw deal. What does everybody think?"

If this is available and continues to be in this price range when Intel starts charging, then it shouldn't be that painful; compared to the others quoted, this seems to be a real bargain.
Although Hodgey said he couldn't find that on their website, so not sure whether to believe this or not. Anyway, we have some time before it will all start to really matter, so it may not be worth looking to much at the prices at this time.
Quote: ""Developers can choose to use some of their revenue in exchange things like promotion""

Quote: "Probably worth it for us new developers"

This would seem to imply that it is expected that the app is already making a fair amount of revenue/profit, so it doesn't really sound like it would be very useful for the new developer.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 13:41
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Quote: "Probably worth it for us new developers."

I think so. I found this in a small corner of the website, you can apply though email, I think, but you can probably do it via your developer's account.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 14:03 Edited at: 21st Jun 2011 14:04
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That's a good option Hodgey but someone would have to talk to mOcean to get an idea of costs. I may look into this at some point but I'm working on my game at the moment.

I've added grass now so I can start working on the basics of my level editor:


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Hodgey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2011 14:16
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Quote: "That's a good option Hodgey but someone would have to talk to mOcean to get an idea of costs."

I went onto their website and got lost so that was unsuccessful.

Your game looks better everytime you post a new screeny. I've hit a snag in the development of Radar Invaders, I need UDTs to support arrays. I'm working on a work around though so hopefully will have something new to show this weekend.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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DarkByNight
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 08:48
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Wow what an honour to be mentioned as an example of a well thought out game.
Thanks a bunch bax.
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baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 12:32 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2011 12:33
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Code Signing update
I'm just finishing putting my message to Intel together regarding this and I'll post it here when it's done and keep you all updated regarding the response.

In the meantime I took another look at the cost and the cheapest I can find is available via Tucows for just $75 for one year or as little as $65 per year if you pay for 3 years ($195):


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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 13:02
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looks good, although it doesn't explicitly state msi files as an option. I just checked and there is reference to it working for msi, with a slight tweak via a command line parameter.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 13:20
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I really hate being the one to find problems or raise doubts, someone else want to do it? Anyway is this CA allowed by Intel?

Quote: "I'm just finishing putting my message to Intel together regarding this and I'll post it here when it's done and keep you all updated regarding the response."

I think we all owe you one of these Baxslash , cheers.
I'm eager to hear intel's response.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 13:25
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Quote: "I really hate being the one to find problems or raise doubts, someone else want to do it?"

Raising doubts is always better before it becomes a problem don't stop now!

Quote: "Anyway is this CA allowed by Intel?"

They specify "Comodo" as an allowed provider but I guess the question is as batvink suggested, whether or not it will work on an msi... we have plenty of time to work out the bumps though!

Quote: "I think we all owe you one of these Baxslash , cheers."

Thanks Hodgey! I do have a large appetite for beer...

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Hodgey
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 13:57
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Quote: "Raising doubts is always better before it becomes a problem don't stop now!"

I suppose so, tough love I guess.

I went onto the Tucows website but couldn't be bothered to make an account but by the looks of it, it is the best deal we have seen so far.

Here are the others for your viewing pleasure
Comodo
Go Daddy
Chosen Security
Verisign
Global Sign
Thawte
Trust Center
Let me know if there is a broken link or if it leads to the wrong website.

A clever person solves a problem, a wise person avoids it - Albert Einstein
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baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 14:04 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2011 14:07
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Thanks Hodgey! The links seem fine.

Quote: "Baxslash, I notice your screenshot has mode 7 listed Does that mean SNES zoomy, twistyness? Or just a mode you have listed without any ref to the snes at all Just wondering"

Somehow missed this one DVader! No just an internal mode (swing mode)...

Code Signing Petition
Here is what I've written so far and about finished I think (no spell check):
Quote: "
I am the organiser of an informal group of indipendent developers on "The Game Creators" forums we call the "AppUp Dark Basic Professional Developers Group". As a group we have around 17-20 published titles and components on AppUp and around a dozen games in development. As you can see we are an active and self motivated group of developers that are committed almost exclusively to AppUp.

We have been trying to get ourselves established on the store before the yearly $99 fee is brought into effect at a currently undisclosed / undecided date in order to cover this fee with any money we make from our Apps.

We were extremely worried as a group to find the article (link below) by Bob Duffy regarding the introduction of "Code Signing" as a requirement for validation. We understand that it improves trust in the AppUp store when users do not get warnings about the validity of applications downloaded from the store but as small inipendent developers (normally individuals), many of us fealt that the extra cost (between $169 and $500 per year) signalled the end of our participation in AppUp.

It is our opinion that this additional cost will deter many small developers from joining the AppUp developer community and that this will be to the detriment of AppUp.

We urge you to either reconsider this addition to the validation process or to find some way to help independent developers such as ourselves until such time as they can afford the additional cost from their earnings on AppUp.

Perhaps you could provide a certificate for a further percentage of each sale until the developer's sales reach a certain target? This or any further assistance to developers such as ourselves would be greatly appreciated.

I would like to provide you with some comments from our community regarding this issue:

"I fear this has put me off Appup for a while. Until Appup gains a lot of publicity so the potential to actually make some money is there I probably won't be selling any games on Appup (not independently anyway)..."

"If Intel made some sort of revenue splitting deal to pay for the certificate I might be ok with that. Or if they let each app published get a free certificate for the first year and at the end of the year it is the developers choice whether to start paying for certificates or take their app off the store. This gives the app a chance to do well and if not you haven't spent $300 for nothing.

I'm not too worried about making money on the Appup store but I certainly don't want to lose money publishing an app."

"I seriously hope that they reconsider the $99 fee too. Or some other kind of arrangement that gives indie developers the chance to at least earn some profit out of their games.
If they (AppUp) wanna gain something out of the publishing of games (which is normal I think), they should also keep in mind that there are a lot more indie developers than big software companies, and they should encourage those indie devs and above all, try to keep them."

"this plan by Intel that will surely be the beginning of the decline of the Indie Developer on their App Store. It is a sad but common theme that Big Business always seem to loose sight of the people that helped them to establish their market. They always see to want to chase the delicious looking treats and forget about their bread and butter."

"For me personally it would be a great shame as the numbers being thrown around so far would simply be too high for me to be willing to pay, given the current returns the store is giving.

Such a policy would also seem to be very short sighted for AppUp as app stores, IMO, thrive from having an app for every occasion. That quantity of quality apps for niche markets that make app stores so universally useful are only possible through lots of indie developers. A few big companies will make a few quality apps but they won't ever replace the numerous indie developers who will be lost by large upfront fees."

"I think the code signing is a good idea, well for those who use Vista or W7, but i strongly object to the annual fee for this. Although they are going to provide f.o.c for 1 year, sooner or later this and the $99 user fee make it unviable for me, and i guess many others. After all, they already take 30% of any sales so why punish the small programmer even more. The larger companies are uploading 30+ Appups at a time... Without something more assuring from Intel for the long term future making it affordable to all, I cannot see any logic in investing more time in creating for their store."

"From Intels point of view it is understandable that they don't really want the Appups W7 installer starting off by saying this Appup is from a non-trusted publisher. I also dislike this, but so far we have accepted it. It would be good if our software was classed as "trusted" but the high certificate costs mean that this just won't happen for me. So although the idea is good, the charging aspect is unacceptable, and its this part that makes me "anti" the idea, but as they are going to insist on it I don't see why they don't pay for it. Having a certificate doesn't really mean that you are a trusted publisher, it simply means that you have paid for a certificate that says you are."

"publishing through AppUp will cost me at least 199$ a year? That's quite a lot! I mean my game will just be up there on page 123 with probably hundrets of other games. I'm not sure if I can gain enough out of a game to compensate the cost!
And I don't know if I have enough spare time to produce multiple games a year, that meet my own goals for quality.
I mean the other cheaper option in my eyes would be to open up my own website and sell it from there with some kind of self-made authentification process and just hand out individual product keys after receiving Paypal payments. Then do some kind of viral marketing or something, using trailers, social networks and the like..."

Link to the original article:
http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/blog/2011/06/04/application-signing-be-introduced-intel-appup-dev-program-starting-1st-july
"


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Battoad
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2011 14:22
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Nice article baxslash, but things may be even worse for us as Intel appear to be restricting issuers of the certificate which may mean we will not be able to shop around and find a lower cost version.

quote:

"Intel has a designated list of CAs that developers are required to get certificates from. They are: Chosen Security, Verisign, Globalsign, Thawte, Trust Center, Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority and Comodo".

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