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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / TGC App Developers Group

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Battoad
AGK Developer
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2011 10:00
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Thanks baxslash, good feedback. I'll work through your points to see what I can improve although I have already fixed the last bit about pressing 1-3 in time for the above demo. But well spotted, ta.
You can turn the SFX on/off by pressing "S". These sounds give me an impression of a "clown" so glad u thought they were funny.
My 1st ever attempt at music so glad u liked it and also for comments on reducing quality, something i didnt think of.
Thanks again, its very difficult to get something right without feedback, hence the importance of this group.

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baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2011 10:03
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Glad to help! Post a new version and I'll test it. Still testing the current version though

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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Mar 2011 16:41
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Newsletter Request
For the next newsletter I have started a small article on the fundamentals of making games for AppUp. General approach stuff.

One of the main things I'm concentrating on is "Efficient Code".

Efficient Code
Do you have a great hint/tip for writing efficient code? Simple but specific stuff like reducing the number of iterations in for->next loops. If so post it here and I'll include the most useful ideas in the article.

Title your post in bold like I did here:
Hint/Tip Efficient Code

I'd also like to discuss making your game display size independant so that games can look good on any monitor (not just 1024x600 netbooks). This part will be more general but if you do have a specific way of achieving this or anything to say of interest then let me know too.

Title these posts:
Hint/Tip Flexible Display

I only want to add the post titles like this to make them easy to find in the future. I hope that makes sense, Thanks guys!

My general idea is that I'd like to start up a guide to developing DBP games for AppUp which is sent out in part via the newsletter and gets updated as we progress and as more information becomes available. I'll make this guide downloadable once started from the first post on the thread (I thought PDF format).

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Cor
AGK Developer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2011 05:11
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I downloaded The Last Stand from your first post and i like it. i lasted for 15 min and 30 sec on the first map (they only got me cause i ran out of ammo lol)
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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Mar 2011 09:56 Edited at: 5th Mar 2011 09:58
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Hint/Tip Flexible Display

As I have no AppUp games, here is some general tips for displays:

1. Establish the conditions under which your game can run:

Minimum and Maximum resolution for both width and height (example, your game may be impossible to display at anything less than 800x600, and the graphics may only be designed for a maximum width of 1600 pixels. These determine your limitations even though the user's screen has greater abilities)

Bit Depth (example if you are using transparent PNG graphics, then establish that 16-bit is not allowed)

Ratio. (example A game running at 1024x768 can be very different to 1024x600 if gameplay is constrained by the screen boundaries. Think Pong - The court would be elongated on a netbook compared to a standard monitor

2. Once established, enumerate all of the available displays that fit your criteria using perform checklist for display modes

width = checklist value a(listItem)
height = checklist value b(listItem)
depth = checklist value c(listItem)
name = checklist string$(listItem)

3. Use this list to present available display options to your user in your menu.

Feel free to use this as part of a more detailed guide

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baxslash
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Posted: 5th Mar 2011 18:32
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Hey thanks Cor! Glad you liked it.

Thanks too to Batvink, some great tips there

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Cor
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Posted: 5th Mar 2011 21:35
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Hey baxslash i have a question do you know if you can use smart packer to pack all the media then pack it into an msi using VS2008?
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DarkByNight
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 05:47
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Okay, we are home from the honeymoon and I am ready to resume work!
I have uploaded a new version, hopefully this one works because otherwise I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Tell me if it works and a playthrough to test playability and such would be nice!
Thank you!
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baxslash
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 07:30 Edited at: 6th Mar 2011 07:34
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Quote: "Hey baxslash i have a question do you know if you can use smart packer to pack all the media then pack it into an msi using VS2008?"

No, I'm fairly sure it makes a single executable file. The msi you need for AppUp has some fairly specific requirements, there may be other installer makers that work but the only ways I'm aware of that work are:
1-War Setup 3 and Orca (Free)
2-Visual Studio (Not sure if anyone has used the trial version to make an msi yet but I use the full version)

Quote: "Okay, we are home from the honeymoon and I am ready to resume work!
I have uploaded a new version, hopefully this one works because otherwise I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Tell me if it works and a playthrough to test playability and such would be nice!
Thank you! "

I'll check for an update on AppUp (forgot it was a full Beta!), hope you had a great honeymoon!

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Cor
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 07:45
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Ok thanks for the reply. I use visual studio 2008 (full version ) for my installers at the moment. I was just looking into different ways to pack the media.
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baxslash
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 07:55
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OK. VS2008 is the easy way.

Here is a link to a great guide for building the installer on VS2008. All of my games have passed validation using this setup:
http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/node/733

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 13:27
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Okay bugger it, this time I'm sure it works! (Almost. )
I tried the visual studio approach, and I will be your tester because I am using the trial, if it works I will purchase the liscense.
The installer should be uploaded shortly, when you get the time and the installer is completely uploaded (Do you get notification?) please test it, thank you so much for all your help!
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baxslash
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Posted: 6th Mar 2011 21:52
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I think I should get notified because when you start a new Beta session I think you'll have to re-invite me. Otherwise it might show as an update in the AppUp client.

It's a good chance to clarify that too!

I'll try to look tonight but it's been a long day

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 04:22
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Exciting! I just started work on Shadowcast 2!
It will be a free form, open worlded sandbox game.
It will be mainly text but with many more graphics and bling than Shadowcast 1.
I discovered the wonders of cloggy's d3d plugin so this opens a whole new world for me!
So far I've got the basic environment down, the text box with word wrap, an input box that updates in real time and caps at 40 characters, plus prints the command to the textbox after which it resets itself.
Might seem like nothing to code guru's like you but I'm truly excited about the posibilities!
In this game you get to play as a shadowcaster.

Or as one of many ordinary professions.
Depending on choices you could end up a legend greater than any shadowcaster, an entrepanour with holdings all over the world or even a highly respected (and perhaps highly corrupted) tradeprince.
Anyway, I don't want to spoil it too much but I've got a long, fun time ahead of me!
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baxslash
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 09:45
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Quote: "Ok thanks for the reply. I use visual studio 2008 (full version ) for my installers at the moment. I was just looking into different ways to pack the media."

Just re-read this and realised you might still be wanting to use it. Just be aware that your installation process must have no user interaction (silent) so if the user needs to unpack the media after the install that may cause the game to fail validation.

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baxslash
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 10:26
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DarkByNight, I got your invite. I'll test ASAP (tonight at the earliest).

Glad to see you've got the bug now too Shadowcast 2 sounds interesting!

Cloggy's dll has served me well for lots of different projects (nearly all of mine actually) from the 3D highscore text in my first game "Odd Blox" to the text, laser sights and motion detectors in "The Last Stand". It's probably the most useful plugin I have, right alongside the Matrix Utility plugin of course!

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 7th Mar 2011 17:19 Edited at: 8th Mar 2011 11:35
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Wow, one day down, many to go and this screen is what I have to show for it.
Basic framework is done and Character creation is about 70%!
Exciting day!

Proof of concept:



EDIT: I just stepped it up a notch: Character creation is at 95%, just one last step!


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DarkByNight
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 15:22
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Okay I couldn't wait, thank you for your offer bax but I need to put this project behind me for peace of mind and that can only happen when it is validated so I can 100% focus on the sequel.
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baxslash
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 15:32
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Quote: "Okay I couldn't wait, thank you for your offer bax but I need to put this project behind me for peace of mind and that can only happen when it is validated so I can 100% focus on the sequel."

Sorry to hear that. One more day waiting for me to do a quick Beta beats up to two weeks waiting for a failed validation surely! I can definitely test it tonight and I'd urge you to wait as I once tried to pull a game from validation and found it literally impossible. I had to wait nearly three weeks before I could upload a working version...

Up to you of course

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 03:58
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I agree now that it was a rash desiscion, unfortunately I am very impulsive.
However, I still have the demo for you to beta test, it's the same game, only with just the two first quests and 3 sets of monsters. Im just packaging it now and then sending it for beta.
If you will forgive me for being rash, please test it. Thank you so much.

PS: It was packaged just like the full game so if the demo works, chances are the full game will work too.
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baxslash
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 09:36
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Quote: "However, I still have the demo for you to beta test, it's the same game, only with just the two first quests and 3 sets of monsters. Im just packaging it now and then sending it for beta.
If you will forgive me for being rash, please test it. Thank you so much."

Hey not a problem for me I just wish you'd warned me for your own sake. I know the frustration of waiting for validation

I got your invite and will test tonight I promise!

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baxslash
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 17:51
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Anybody have any more advice they'd like to add for next month's newsletter regarding display/performance?

I know it's early but is the only person wanting to contribute really the guy who writes the newsletter anyway?

Come on guys! This is exactly what the group is about. I have enough to write an article but I'd happily replace some of my ideas with better advice if anyone has it?

Doesn't matter if you think it sounds stupid, at the very least it might spark some debate and I'd consider that very helpful at the moment.

Anyone?

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 19:19
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Thinking about netbook dev tips...

* Consider the maximum frame rate that your game needs. If it runs nicely at 30fps, then pass any leftover performance back to the processor. This saves battery life and helps ensure that your game will run on the lowest spec netbooks.

* Avoid using images that are over 1024x1024, some netbook graphics hardware will struggle, or might not support >1024x1024 resolutions.

* Remember that touch pads are not ideal for gaming. Make the most of them, and add in options to control sensitivity. One idea is to check for the mouse movements being 0 - it's quite easy to detect flicks that way. Perhaps adding some inertia to the mouse movement would be an idea.

* Although 1024x600 is the standard, that will only go up in time. If possible, allow your game to adapt to any resolution. Fix the aspect ration by adding solid borders - perhaps with 2 sprites so it can be adjusted easily. 3D plains tend to look a bit better when rotated, and slightly higher than required resolutions can help too.

* Consider that the next generation of netbooks will probably have touch screens, these are already available for the cheapest Aspire One netbooks. Also netbook tablets will get better and better. If you can add a touch mode then I think it's worth the effort, might just be a case of hiding the mouse.

* Try and avoid using any sounds that annoy people - netbooks are designed to be portable, so try and be subtle with music and sound effects. Make sure as well that the volume control keys work during the game, it might well save some family arguments.

* If your game is keyboard controlled, add in options to change keys - there are sticky, broken, missing, and abused keys on netbooks everywhere. Try and support control pads as well. The cursor keys on netbooks can be far too small for real gaming.

* Remember your target audience, spending a bit more time on polish, debugging, and presentation might make all the difference.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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baxslash
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Posted: 9th Mar 2011 21:37
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Excellent thanks a lot @VanB!



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The Slayer
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 00:53
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Here are some tips regarding choice of file formats for media. These tips are not only for netbooks, but should be used as much as possible for any platform development. Of course, you can do what you want.
We all know that netbooks have less memory and processing power than a regular PC or laptop, so we should keep the memory usage as low as possible to leave more memory available for anything else than media.

* Use the .jpg file format for any image that doesn't need transpareny. The resolution of a .jpg file is as good as a regular .bmp (bitmap). Just to prove my point, here are two identical images. One is a .bmp, and the other a .jpg file. The file size of the .jpg is three times lower than the bitmap. And, as you can see, there's no difference. If you can spot any difference, than let me know. That would mean I need glasses.
If you have a decent paint program, than you should be able to optimize the export settings for .jpg files. If you cant change the export settings for .jpg files, than a good alternative would be .png files.





* For images that require transparency, the best format (in my opinion) is .png. Or, also the .tga format.

* Keep the size of your images as low as possible, especially for textures. If you have textures of 512x512, scale them down to 256x256, or even to 128x128. You wont see the difference. But the filesize would be less.
For textures that only have one color, you can even scale 'em down to 32x32.

* 3D models for netbook games need special care in terms of polycount. The lower, the better.
Use the .DBO format if you can, and if not, the .x format.

* Clone or Instance your models wherever possible.

* For sounds and music, I would advise to use the .ogg format. The filesize is low, and the quality is as good as .mp3 files.
Keeping a lower frequency will also reduce the filesize of your sounds and music.

Cheers

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 05:26
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How'd the test go? Excited to hear.
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baxslash
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 09:44
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@The Slayer, thanks a lot fella! That's great. I think I have enough now unless anyone else wants to contribute. Great response guys!

Quote: "How'd the test go? Excited to hear."

I'm afraid I had to break my promise, sorry. My wife wanted the netbook last night for work and my desktop is Vista so it won't run AppUp...

I'll test tonight as she's at the pub 100% definite, if you can wait just 12 more hours till the kids are in bed and I've had a couple of hours to test it fully? I'll try to post whether it runs or not earlier than that though...

On another note I started a WIP thread for the sequel to "The Last Stand", working title "The Last Chance":
The Last Chance WIP

It's early days but I'm really pleased with my ideas (mostly top secret at the moment)...

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 09:46 Edited at: 10th Mar 2011 09:49
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I'm currently working on a temporary project that has pushed Shadowcast 2 aside for the moment, I want to see how far I can get with a roguelike before 7DRL challenge ends. If it turns out well I might have 2 exciting projects to work on.

EDIT: The last chance looks and sounds quite brilliant!

EDIT 2: If the DEMO runs, please try and get to level 10 (Even though it might be hard in the demo, have to grind on stage 3 monsters for a bit I think) At level ten you get to select a prestige class.
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baxslash
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 11:22
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Quote: "I'm currently working on a temporary project that has pushed Shadowcast 2 aside for the moment, I want to see how far I can get with a roguelike before 7DRL challenge ends. If it turns out well I might have 2 exciting projects to work on."

Great, good luck!

Quote: "The last chance looks and sounds quite brilliant!"

Thanks!

Quote: "If the DEMO runs, please try and get to level 10 (Even though it might be hard in the demo, have to grind on stage 3 monsters for a bit I think) At level ten you get to select a prestige class."

OK, I'll give it a shot. Will you be online around 9pm GMT (10pm in Denmark)? I'll be trying to post a message around then.

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 11:29
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Ohh I forgot to edit my location
I live in Thailand, That would be 3 am my time.
I'll have something to look forward to when I wake up!
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baxslash
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 11:33
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Quote: "Ohh I forgot to edit my location
I live in Thailand, That would be 3 am my time.
I'll have something to look forward to when I wake up! "

Ha, you get around don't you! OK, hopefully you'll wake up to good news then

I won't rush through it too much in that case.

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baxslash
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Posted: 10th Mar 2011 23:10
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@DarkByNight, the good news is the installer worked fine this time!

The only bad news so far is that it opens in windowed mode but when I maximise it the text is distorted and/or I can't see the bottom line of text (where I'm writing).

I would suggest compiling the game in "fulldesktop" mode. Other than that it seems fine. I would play for longer but the text is either too hard to read or too hard to write... I would consider the display setting to be the main bug at the moment.

I actually was quite excited to play this retro style text game but found it too frustrating, sorry! PLEASE change the display and re-post?!

I love the character stats on the right and the story is very well written. I would make some slight changes to the text but only because my wife is an English teacher and it has rubbed off on me! Maybe some more incidental music would be a nice addition too? There's loads to download royalty free.

Anyway Email me if you want any more help or advice or post here.

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 12th Mar 2011 08:01 Edited at: 12th Mar 2011 08:04
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Okay I added a function to set up the window, if you native res is 1024, 600 then it should go full screen (I hope. )
Give it a spin and tell me if it works! Thank you!
I am uploading again, hopefully this works!
The demo might get released before the full game (I'm pretty sure it will fail validation since it has the same problem as the old demo.) but that might be good, people might play the demo and like it enough to buy the full game.

EDIT: Thank you tons and tons for the feedback!

EDIT 2: What do you mean about incidental music?
What did you think of the main menu?
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baxslash
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Posted: 12th Mar 2011 09:55
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I'll try to test it ASAP, but it's my birthday this weekend

Could have sworn I heard some music when I was playing the game... maybe it was from another App or something

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 12th Mar 2011 10:12
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You heard music if you turned it on in options.
Happy birthday!
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DarkByNight
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Posted: 15th Mar 2011 03:51
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Ohh my freaking goodness!!!
I woke up to a very happy pm this morning! Shadowcast has been published!
Woohoo this is the most amazing feeling I've ever had (Aside from getting married. )
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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Mar 2011 11:54
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Quote: "Ohh my freaking goodness!!!
I woke up to a very happy pm this morning! Shadowcast has been published!
Woohoo this is the most amazing feeling I've ever had (Aside from getting married. )"

Congratulations!! I'd get that fixed version in as soon as you think it's ready though.

I tried re-downloading the Demo last night but it still windowed the same way. Might be the problem with Beta testing I've been having where the download doesn't get updated.

Anyway, now that we know the installer works you could just Email me the updated "exe" (renamed or it'll get binned)...

Well done anyway, I'll take a look on the store tonight! (updating your App as published on the first post too )

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 15th Mar 2011 12:23
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Hmm I can't email the file, gmail issues. o.O;
Here's the file.

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Mar 2011 14:56
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Got it thanks, I'll take a look.

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 11:28
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Have you had a chance to test it yet?
Excited to hear!
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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 11:35
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Quote: "Have you had a chance to test it yet?
Excited to hear!"

Not yet but tonight is a really good chance so I'll post a message as soon as I've tested it. I've had a really testing week, plus some truck driver just knocked the front bumper off my car

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 11:57
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w sorry to hear things are rough!
Life can sure knock you around a little.
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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 13:57
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Quote: "Life can sure knock you around a little."

Could be a lot worse! Anyway it was in a private car park and I wasn't even in the car so he'll have to pay up... maybe I'll park the other way around and get the back bumper replaced next time (it's a bit damaged anyway!)

Over time I could replace the whole car...

Anyone got any interesting news regarding AppUp?

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Battoad
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 17:41
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Quote: "Anyone got any interesting news regarding AppUp?"


Not really interesting but very frustrating, i.e problems with Warsetup.

I've simulated Lee's setup for his MyFreeInstaller/MyCoolgame, and it works well on my pc, but obviously has the shortcut [sq.brkts] problem.
I then put it through Orca and made the changes of removing the non-dt shortcut and replacing the target with the feature string. But results are disappointing and now i'm stuck.

The desktop icon has lost its texture and no longer points to the .exe, only points to the folder, so it just doesnt work.

Any suggestions anyone?

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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 17:46
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Quote: "Not really interesting but very frustrating, i.e problems with Warsetup."

Sorry to hear that Juney...

Quote: "The desktop icon has lost its texture and no longer points to the .exe, only points to the folder, so it just doesnt work."

Sounds odd. I haven't used Orca though yet... anyone else? Did you follow Lee's youtube video for Orca?

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DarkByNight
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 17:50
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I'd highly recommend the visual studio 2008 route, it is very easy and works great, even just the demo version. There's a tutorial on it somewhere.... Hmm but ofcourse after 90 days you'd need to buy the full version.
What does a liscence for that cost Bax?
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Battoad
AGK Developer
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Location: A Dark Place
Posted: 18th Mar 2011 18:12 Edited at: 18th Mar 2011 18:17
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Quote: " Did you follow Lee's youtube video for Orca?
"


To the letter. The installer works correctly with desktop icon before i change the msi with Orca. I then followed lee's instruction video but the desktop icon fails to work from the amended msi. No image and doesn't even point to the exe.

The target string which I replace is also listed under Files, which links to the exe, so deleting this string and replacing it with the Feature string appears to just point the dt icon to the Application Folder and not the exe in the program folder.

I think Lee might need to help a bit more with this one.


Quote: "I'd highly recommend the visual studio 2008 route"


I used this for my 1st Appup and it really does work well, but i only had a trial version. The cost to buy is too expensive and i feel would never be recovered from Appup sales, so the free version is my only option. I stopped writing Appups once my trial version expired but started again when Lee released a solution for Warsetup, but this is looking bad for me at the moment.

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baxslash
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Location: Duffield
Posted: 18th Mar 2011 18:17
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That's a real shame, I thought we had this one licked...

I'll send a request to Lee. I'm sure he's chin deep in AppGameKit at the moment though. Maybe you could post a reply/request to him (TGC) on the AppUp forum too?

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Battoad
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Posted: 18th Mar 2011 18:26
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Quote: "Maybe you could post a reply/request to him (TGC) on the AppUp forum too?
"


Sent. Lets hope he has time to re-visit this one.

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baxslash
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Location: Duffield
Posted: 18th Mar 2011 18:27
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Quote: "Sent. Lets hope he has time to re-visit this one."

You want me to build an installer for you in the mean time?

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