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Geek Culture / Xbox One

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Matty H
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 15:11
Well, I was completely wrong.

I thought after the initial backlash Microsoft would cave and relax these restrictions. But it seems it may be too late, developers have probably already utilised the cloud stuff and the daily connection is needed for the software to function properly.

This may be the norm in the future and Microsoft will take the hit for being the first console to do it. I never liked the idea of paying to play online, but XBox360 did it and now it seems it's acceptable/inevitable for PS4 also, how did that happen? It's hard to believe that these consoles and the many games they sell are not profitable, but there you go.

I think the PS4 is the way to go, I have a PS3 but realise I probably chose the wrong console last time, this time the choice is much clearer I think.

Quik
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 15:53
matty H - having a GOOD internet service and keeping the service up at all times costs money - so that's indeed inevitable.



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budokaiman
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 16:10
Just posting this relevant comic.




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Matty H
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 16:49
Quote: "matty H - having a GOOD internet service and keeping the service up at all times costs money - so that's indeed inevitable."


I partly agree with this, but look at it from this point of view, these 'services' are also shops that want you to spend money in them, selling games online for the same as in real physical shops is surly profitable, could they not run the rest of the services with the profit.

Imagine having to pay to walk into HMV and have a loyalty card of some sort so they can track your purchases. How many people would do that?

Mobiius
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 17:21 Edited at: 12th Jun 2013 17:21
Quote: "Imagine having to pay to walk into HMV and have a loyalty card of some sort so they can track your purchases. How many people would do that?"

That's not a good analogy. It's more like paying to be a member of a country club. Regardless of whether or not you partake of their services, you still visit the club, which needs to be maintained.

And HMV does have loyalty card which track purchases..

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Quik
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 17:59
Mobiius - that's the best comparison yet - thanks that will be used ^^


And, needless to say - it's like mobiius says.



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Matty H
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 18:13 Edited at: 12th Jun 2013 18:14
Quote: "That's not a good analogy. It's more like paying to be a member of a country club. Regardless of whether or not you partake of their services, you still visit the club, which needs to be maintained."


This is how it is seen and is also the justification, and I am not completely disagreeing. Just interested in what has changed since psn was free.

What 'services' does psn offer me now?

Well I download a lot of free demos, so I do get a good service here, but I also do that on Android devices.
I also buy games if I enjoyed the demo, this 'service' should surly pay for itself.

I use Netflix on my playstation, but I pay monthly for that already.

I game online with my friends, this is the most important and most used service for me, but game developers must run their own servers and the cost of that is added on to the game I would think. Although they obviously hook the players up via psn.

My gut feeling is they may be subsidising the price of the console. But also, they are adding more features to psn which is costly, so fair enough. I personally would just like to be able to hook up with my friends in-game, everything else is not so important imo.



Quote: "And HMV does have loyalty card which track purchases.."


Sorry, I did not make myself clear on that point at all. Having peoples information over a network or through a loyalty card is worth something to the shop. They can track consumer habits and target their customers more efficiently and productively. Stores usually give discounts for using a card in this way, not charge you for being a loyal customer.

Mobiius
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 19:40
Quote: "Mobiius - that's the best comparison yet - thanks that will be used ^^"

Thanks, I was quite proud of it. lol

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ionstream
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 20:43
Quote: "I think for some people it's about principles. I personally don't want to be globally connected 24/7 when playing a single player game on a recreational device that simply doesn't need it, it'd feel strange. It's annoying enough having to be permanently connected on Steam."


That's true and I definitely understand that mentality, it can feel frustrating to not feel like you don't actually own something that you purchased. But I think it's important to try and allow yourself to go with what they are trying to do with the cloud system - it's sort of like buying books on my Nook, I don't need physical copies and I can download them at any time and am should have confidence that it won't just disappear, but I know I can't just sell the books I own and I need to log in to verify that I'm the guy who purchased the books. I like the system a lot, but if they were to ever just remove a book from me or I couldn't access my books, that would be a red flag. But I haven't encountered that so I'm happy. If Microsoft does the same then I'll be happy as well.

Mobiius
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Posted: 12th Jun 2013 23:41
Quote: "[...]if they were to ever just remove a book from me or I couldn't access my books, that would be a red flag"

Microsoft already do this removing of content.

I recently decided to play a copy of Forza 2. I couldn't use my saved game as I didn't have the DLC installed on my new console, but lo and behold, that content had been removed from the marketplace, so I was unable to re-download content I paid for.

It annoyed me greatly.

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ionstream
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Posted: 14th Jun 2013 19:02
I meant me personally, I've heard a lot of frustrating stories about cloud services like Nook and even Steam and Amazon but I haven't encountered them myself just yet.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jun 2013 19:19
Quote: "Microsoft already do this removing of content."


And Sony. They made a couple of downloadable games like Streets of Rage unavailable, so a friend who had bought them couldn't play them anymore.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Jun 2013 21:44 Edited at: 14th Jun 2013 21:45
The XBone will be region-locked to just 21 countries. Since XBox Live is required for the "always on" function, but unavailable in some countries (I don't know why this is), as a result the XBone will not work in those countries that do not support XBox Live. Most notably: Poland, Romania, Portugal, Singapore, Bulgaria and Czech Republic. That's a lot of console gamers left out in the cold.

Oh yeah... PS4 is not region locked and will be available everywhere.

I'm starting to dream up conspiracy theories to explain why MSoft are sabotaging their own console.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:08
Aye, the console is just... Bad...

The proverbial brown stuff sure has hit the fan at MS, apparently.:/
TheComet
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:16
More like XBonerKill


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:41
Comet, I discovered your tumblr:

Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:48
wasnt there a very old version of that but for another console.. operating system or whatever it was?



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bond1
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:52
Reading through some of the official policies on XB1, I keep thinking, "Jeez when did you have to become a lawyer to understand what you can and can't do with a freaking video game machine"?

And even those official policies are STILL vague as hell. Still so many unansered questions: What is an "official" reseller? Can I sell my games at a yardsale? Flea Market? Why in the world would anyone buy this thing?

I really hope the Amazon poll is correct and people boycott the XB1, it would be a major victory for consumers: https://www.facebook.com/AmazonVideoGames?v=app_153839431317646&rest=1

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TheComet
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 01:55
No one must know of my tumblr! Quick, stop flicking through it before it is too late and you are overwhelmed by foodporn and other delicious things!

TheComet


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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 02:01
I do quite not at all mind not being able to sell at a reseller - because the devs don't get shoes for it.

As long as I can sell / give to my friends, or other people, thats cool.



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bond1
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 02:36 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 02:40
Quote: "I do quite not at all mind not being able to sell at a reseller - because the devs don't get shoes for it."


If a guy working minimum wage wants to sell a couple games at Gamestop so that he can buy a NEW game, then that DOES support the devs. It's a new game sale that might not otherwise happen.

I don't buy used games anymore because I'm fortunate enough that I don't have to, but used game sales from mom and pop places have been around forever, before Gamestop.

I'd go to these mom and pop used game stores when I was a kid in the 80's and sell some games so that I could afford the NEW game I wanted. It didn't kill the industry back then, and it won't now, so I don't buy that argument.

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 02:50
Quote: "If a guy working minimum wage wants to sell a couple games at Gamestop so that he can buy a NEW game, then that DOES support the devs. It's a new game sale that might not otherwise happen. "



no. just no - if you are selling a game on gamestop - then the developers of THAT GAME is getting NO profit rfom that sale, or the next guy of it. and they are making a BUISNESS of it - which the developers get NO profit from.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 03:05
Quote: "no. just no - if you are selling a game on gamestop - then the developers of THAT GAME is getting NO profit rfom that sale, or the next guy of it. and they are making a BUISNESS of it - which the developers get NO profit from."


Agreed, I always think it's a shame when someone buys a used car, because the manufacturer isn't getting a profit from it.

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 03:10
but the used car will have worse quality - a used game won't, and if it stops working, you can pay 2$and have it remade basicly.



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wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 03:22 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 07:29
Quote: "Agreed, I always think it's a shame when someone buys a used car, because the manufacturer isn't getting a profit from it. "

This. This, so [MOD EDIT: Please don't swear with stars.] hard. If developers think they should get a cut of used game sales, then F them. I hope all those money grabbing wangs go under.

As a side note, here's my current logic behind digital content:
1. I can't resell it, that was decided in a court of law recently.
2. If somehow my digital downloads were stolen in a manner in which I couldn't get them back, insurance companies do not deal with non physical goods and would not cover the loss, which basically indicates there was no loss as nothing tangible was stolen.

Both of these suggest that as far as digital ownership goes, there is none. And if I can't own something, I can't exactly steal it, either. So piracy, beginning now, does not exist.

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 03:23 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 07:30
Quote: "This. This, so hard. If developers think they should get a cut of used game sales, then F them. I hope all those money grabbing wangs go under."



this is not the problem, the problem is when used games become a buisness in itself. Obviously i have no problems selling games to friends.



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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 05:00
Quote: "this is not the problem, the problem is when used games become a buisness in itself. "


Used car dealerships are a thing.

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 05:21
Quote: "this is not the problem, the problem is when used games become a buisness in itself. Obviously i have no problems selling games to friends."


What's the difference with you selling used games to friends or a business selling used games to anyone. The developer does not get a cut either way. How can one be right yet the other be wrong? If it is the amount sold by a business then what if everyone just sold their games to friends. Same volume, but the sellers are just spread out more.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 05:38
Quote: "but the used car will have worse quality"


So what?

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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 07:26
The game can't be "used", it's always new as it's a VIRTUAL thing. Damn, how can it be? Textures got scratched or what?

Second. Car is your very own property as it is sold as a piece of metal, games and movies are virtual "int. property", so legal base of
'em is other.

If the car is physically got used, movie and game really can't. It's the information and nothing more.

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 07:55
Quote: "What's the difference with you selling used games to friends or a business selling used games to anyone. The developer does not get a cut either way. How can one be right yet the other be wrong? If it is the amount sold by a business then what if everyone just sold their games to friends. Same volume, but the sellers are just spread out more."


It's a difference selling 1 game to a friend at a 50% proft, and having 50 games which i'm selling at a 100% profit. Most stores could just aswell stop selling retail games and still make a huge profit

a resold car will have significantly lower price and worse quality - a used game can be sold at rougly 50%, and people will PREFER that because it has the exact same quality, as a fresh one.



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bond1
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 08:24
If internet forums and polls are to be believed, something remarkable is unfolding right in front of us, that will be talked about in the business world for a long time I think.

With each passing day, the PS4 snowball is getting larger and larger. I see the XB1 very quickly turning into a laughing-stock, a meme, it's the console you don't want to get stuck with, or embarrassed to own.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 10:50
Quote: "If a guy working minimum wage wants to sell a couple games at Gamestop so that he can buy a NEW game, then that DOES support the devs. It's a new game sale that might not otherwise happen."

That doesn't exactly work, since shops buy used games at 1/3 the price you can sell them for on ebay and sell them on for twice that price.

Quote: "Agreed, I always think it's a shame when someone buys a used car, because the manufacturer isn't getting a profit from it."

That's a false analogy. A car is a physical item that degrades with use. Digital items do not degrade, a used game is identical to a new game.

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wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 10:53
Quote: "If the car is physically got used, movie and game really can't. It's the information and nothing more."

Now I'm confused, are we only talking about digital games?

I own plenty of cartridges that have seen better days, labels peeling off, of course games without the box and manual are worth less too. PS3 and 360 games without the box also sell for less.
Same thing with DVD's, Blu-rays and tapes for movies.
I hope it's understood that xbox one will have zero retro appeal, as once those servers are nixed no one will be able to check in every 24 hours, or register new games to their console. As someone who purchases retro games almost exclusively I don't care for this anti used game crap.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:01
Quote: "Now I'm confused, are we only talking about digital games?"

All video games are digital! They are just bits and bytes.

Quote: "I own plenty of cartridges that have seen better days, labels peeling off, of course games without the box and manual are worth less too. PS3 and 360 games without the box also sell for less."

That's equivalent to if cars did not degrade at all except for the cigarette lighter. The physical medium the game is stored on is not the game. With optical discs this is no longer an issue as they can be resurfaced. When I worked at Blockbuster we resurfaced scratched used discs before re-selling them.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:03 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 11:06
Quote: "I own plenty of cartridges that have seen better days,"

Does the pixels got rotten or what? Seriously.

You can copy any information with ease. There are plenty of soft and tools to help to make a copy. You can't copy the car without having the same second car (or exact amount of materials). You can copy any NES game, any dvd or any book. You can just make an "immortal" digital copy. And, of course, you can copy and materialize any information.

The information can't be "second hand" unless it is a commercial or government secret.

Have you even tried to sell a "second hand" pizza?

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bond1
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:08 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 11:13
Just the POSSIBILITY of a scenario like this is enough to keep me from XBox One:

-After a long day at work, I fire up a game on XBox One
-Message pops up, "Cannot Authenticate, Please Call 1-800-Microsoft"
-Waits on hold 15 minutes, "Hi, I can't play my game"
-Microsoft Support: "Make sure the internet connection cable is securely plugged into your XBox One
-Me: "It is, I've already checked that"
-Microsoft Support: "Please contact your internet service provider and make sure you have a working internet connection"
-Me: "My internet is working, I've already checked it"
-Microsoft Support: "Sorry for your inconvenience, let me elevate this to level 2 support, please hold"

No reason whatsoever to phone home to play a single player game. I'd rather just avoid the scenario altogether.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:17
@bond1

I think in that case, case of Xbox should be made of steel otherwise it would be demolished by anger.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:17
Quote: "Have you even tried to sell a "second hand" pizza?
"


Yes I once sold a half eaten pizza for $10 to a drunk man in the street who really wanted it. It was pure profit I only paid $5 for it and I'd eaten half of it.

wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:33
Quote: "When I worked at Blockbuster we resurfaced scratched used discs before re-selling them."

You can only resurface a limited number of times.. So yeah it sort of is an issue. A disc is a degradable medium.
OK, so the data isn't degradable. However, due to console DRM you can't exactly play the game without the disc (assuming once again that we're talking about physical games) so the game is still a physical, degradable product.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:34 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 11:51
Quote: "but the used car will have worse quality - a used game won't, and if it stops working, you can pay 2$and have it remade basicly."


A used game has less value than a new game. Also disks can get scratched or dirty, they can have some wear and tear, the packaging and booklets can sustain wear and tear as well. Yes, so long as the disk works you're getting the same gaming experience.

But if people wish to use the used car analogy, a second hand car can be in fantastic condition and can be 'like-new' and it would be as though the person bought the car new, except the manufacturer isn't benefitting from any profit and the person buying the car is paying less because it has mileage. You could argue a person is getting the same driving experience as somebody who bought the car new.

Another way of looking at it, look at the growth of the video game industry, there's a lot of money to be made from video games and it's why video game companies are able to put so much investment in it. People have been able to trade, lend and swap games for decades and heck, people have pirated for decades (though I would argue piracy has hurt the PC games market), even before the internet, which is why it amused me that the Final Fantasy VII PC rerelease had such a crippling DRM, like they were worried people were going to pirate it, when the original release of the game had no protection against piracy, so it was a bit too late.

I don't see how the video game industry is hurt by me buying second hand games, if the game is in a series and I enjoy it, I could end up buying the full priced sequel. Or it may reflect good on the developer and I may buy a game by the same studio (this is why I have so many Bioware titles on my shelf). It was a second hand copy that got my dad into COD and before he got bored of them, he was getting brand new copies, same for my mum and the Lego games. I bought Arkham Asylum second hand and Arkham City full price and will prolly get Arkham Origins for full price as well. If I like the game studio, I might look out for some of their other games, like I have been doing with Square for years and Square Enix have taken a lot of money from me over the years.

Then of course, consider what happens when a game goes out of production. For example Final Fantasy XI and Tales of Vesperia, the 360 versions of each are rare in the UK. I had a hard time finding Tales of Vesperia even second hand. The same for Final Fantasy XI and with FFXI, I paid a subscription for quite some time (heck, I still do), had I not had access to a second hand copy, I would have never played it and it wouldn't have me anywhere near as psyched about Final Fantasy XIV:ARR, I might have ended up getting hooked to a completely different MMO.

So from a personal perspective, I don't understand what they hope to achieve by restricting gamers. The current model for developing and playing games has already been shown to work and works for other media like DVDs, CDs, books and so on. With the current model the video games industry experienced a massive growth. I wouldn't say people trading games is a threat to it, the real threat to the games industry I would say is stagnation.

It would appear Sony realises this. Given the reaction to the XBox One's original rumours and then some of their statements, it's testament to how restriction affects the games and frustrates gamers. Before the PS4's announcements, I was beginning to think I wouldn't be interested in the next wave of consoles. Of course, XBox One has room to make a comeback, but I think for me to be personally interested, it needs to change some things. I am disappointed because I loved my 360 and I am actually still hopeful the Kinect could eventually be cool, it just needs the right people developing for it. However, sad to say, it is the restrictions that are preventing me.

Heck, it was restrictions in PC gaming that could have deterred me from coming back, but I would say Steam is its saviour. Yes, I can no longer trade PC games, but Steam sells them cheaply and you can get good deals on sales - in fact, the Steam sales raid my wallet. If XBox One games were like that, I think it would be more bearable. Though, with Steam digital downloads I permanently own the game, so the advantage is if a disk is scratched, lost or deteriorates, I don't have to buy the game again and not only that, I am legally able to back up my games on steam, in fact, I have a hard drive full of my backed up games. Even if XBox One were able to match that, they still have other problems deterring me from purchase.

Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:40 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 11:48
Quote: "Digital items do not degrade, a used game is identical to a new game."


I'm talking about games that are purely sold on disc, rather than downloadable games where your 'licence' is not tied to the disc (such as Steam and the like).

Quote: "a resold car will have significantly lower price and worse quality - a used game can be sold at rougly 50%, and people will PREFER that because it has the exact same quality, as a fresh one."


I disagree. While the game itself may be of the same quality, the MEDIA itself will degrade over time, and it's illegal to make a copy of the game. When you buy a physical disc your copy of the game is tied to that disc, so when it eventually degrades to the point of being unusable, you have to buy the game again. That's why people prefer to have an unused game (unless cost is a factor, of course).

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:41
Oh no! There was a fight at e3 between ps4 and xbone, somebody call an ambulance! Wii U Wii U Wii U


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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 11:54
Quote: "my dad into COD and before he got bored of them, he was getting brand new copies, same for my mum"

Your mum plays COD?! Creepy...

@Neuro Fuzzy
Nice joke but nintendo really needs a new console.

Quote: "I'm talking about games that are purely sold on disc"

The disc itself is a distribution item, license is tied to owner of the disc. Therefore, a fair copy of scratched disc would not cancel your licence.

Anyway I am not protecing DRM or M$, but when you buying a new game and a used one, there is no difference in game itself. Only a game reseller looses money. When you buying a "second hand" item, it is a not new item, like pizza, car or dress. You are using it with it's feel of used item.

I am only agree with reselling a book-movie-game only on case that you are really unable to get it, even as digital copy.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:03 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 12:04
Quote: "Your mum plays COD?! Creepy..."

No, she plays the lego games, it's my dad who plays COD.

Quote: "Therefore, a fair copy of scratched disc would not cancel your licence."


It wouldn't cancel the license, but it renders it useless. Your license extends to only that copy. It's different for digitally bought games because you can just redownload it, but isn't the case for games on disk, you can't just reacquire a new copy without paying for a new license.

Quote: " When you buying a "second hand" item, it is a not new item, like pizza, car or dress. You are using it with it's feel of used item."


Depends on the condition of the item. A disk is an item, the condition of the disk can came with a feeling being second hand and in some cases it can affect your gaming experience. I have bought second hand games where the disk has deteriorated enough to affect the game. Rarely happens, but whether something's "like-new" or feeling second hand depends entirely on the condition, which applies to all media, some deteriorate quicker, say for example, a pizza, whereas some less so, like a game, DVD or even a car.

Which might be why people tend to buy second hand games, DVDs, cars, clothes (I've been in charity shops, second hand clothes are often in great condition) and so on, but not second hand pizza.

mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:09
Quote: "Your license extends to only that copy."

Who said that?

Imagine if only one man bought a book, 1 book out of 10000 printed, and then gave the book to read all of his 1000 friends. Fair enough, right? And so does 9 other people. How many books were sold and how many people have read the book?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:12 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 12:13
Quote: "Who said that?"


The law apparently. From what I've been reading it seems in some cases you may be allowed to make a backup copy, but of course you aren't allowed to sell it (and it must be destroyed if the original is sold). Meaning the value does indeed depreciate over time like with any other physical item, and when the item degrades to the point of no use you have nothing to sell. In contrast, a broken car can be fixed. A car could probably be used indefinitely as long as it's always maintained and broken parts are replaced. Can't do that with a physical disc.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:28
@Wattywatts - If you intentionally destroy the disc then it wont work. I have DVDs and games that are over fifteen years old that still work perfectly fine. Stop splitting hairs. Your argument is invalid.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:33
Quote: "I have DVDs and games that are over fifteen years old that still work perfectly fine. "

But you may accidently damage it! And it will be unfixable.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:35
When you buy a game you buy a copy of the game its on a disk and you acquire a license to use that copy. The license is bound to the disk and any copies if the license allows you to copy it and as Benjamin says, if the original copy is traded you are required to destroy any copies of that disk. If damaged, your license is completely useless. Each disk is unique, just like each item is unique, like a console will have it's own unique serial number, heck, even the bios on something like a PS2 is only licensed to the owner of that PS2, meaning it's illegal to download a PS2 bios (say, if you're emulating, even if you legally own a PS2) or to distribute the bios yourself. It's also why if you torrent a game you already own it's still illegal, because you're using an unlicensed copy of the game.

It's how licenses work. Same applies to CDs & DVDs. Books on the other hand are different because they're not a digital media. Also, licenses on cars are different to licenses on digital media. You get different types of driver's licenses to apply to different types of vehicles rather than having a license bound to each vehicle. And in this case the purpose of the license is different, because with cars, it's not about using a car, it's about being qualified to drive one. With games, it's about protecting digital media from being copied and redistributed. So it's one license, one copy. If cars were capable of being copied in the same way a game can be, then it would probably be 1 car, 1 license.

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