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Geek Culture / Xbox One

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wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 12:39
Quote: "Your argument is invalid."

Interesting you should say that.
You actually believe that I'm splitting hairs by saying that discs are a degradable medium? The argument is invalid bit refers to “any attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.” which is exactly what you're doing.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 13:14
Quote: "You actually believe that I'm splitting hairs by saying that discs are a degradable medium?"

Yes, you are splitting hairs because the wear and tear of a physical disc pales in comparison to any other item that would be sold as "used".

Quote: "any attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise."

That's not true. I am not making any kind of personal attack on you.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 13:33
@Seppuku Arts
God bless I am living in country with sane licencing. I'll never set foot in such place.

Quote: "like a PS2 is only licensed to the owner of that PS2"

That is the most insane thing I ever heard in my entire life, dude.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:13
However, it's true, I wanted to do PS2 emulation on my PC because my PS2 is dead, I own all the games, but I can't legally play them unless I own the bios. It is possible to copy the bios over, but I don't have the tools. I may do it one day though, I'm sure it's not that expensive to do. To be honest, I doubt anybody would care if I downloaded the bios as it would do nobody any harm as I would be playing games legitimately from disk and I legitamately own a PS2, but it is still technically illegal. Unfortunately these laws are there because it's meant to help prevent people from abusing their ability to copy data.

Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:16
Quote: "wear and tear of a physical disc pales in comparison to any other item that would be sold as "used"."


I don't see how. Sure, a used disc in sufficiently good condition will work as good as a brand new one, in the same way a used car in sufficiently good condition will more or less perform its use just as well (getting from A to B), but eventually it will become unusable, even with careful use. It'll wear out, and the game will be gone.

Quote: "I have DVDs and games that are over fifteen years old that still work perfectly fine. Stop splitting hairs. Your argument is invalid."


So if I understand correct, you're denying the degradation of optical media purely based on your own experience with a few discs?

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:20
benjamin - a used disk will either work or not work - however, if it stops working you can have it fixed for 2€.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:22
Quote: "benjamin - a used disk will either work or not work - however, if it stops working you can have it fixed for 2€."


No, if it's mildly scratched you can have them 'polish' it to remove a layer, which may fix it, but an old degraded disc can't be fixed no matter how much you try.

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
Mobiius
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:23
Quote: "however, if it stops working you can have it fixed for 2€."

Only a small number of times, until it can no longer be repaired.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:38
Likewise, to carry on the car analogy, there are cars older than 15 years old in great condition, for example many classical cars you might find at car shows. These cars could be older than most members of this forum.

There's many factors that can speed up or slow down degredation, the fact remains they all degrade and I'm not sure how it factors whether or not things should be resold. Just because something is in immaculate condition people are unable to trade. I think if anything the quicker it degrades the less suitable it is to trade second hand, as already mentioned, pizza.

I guess I would have a problem if it meant people aren't suitably paid for their hardwork and as a result their business could well be at risk. The same reason I don't mourn for the losses of huge record labels earning millions in profit because somebody illegally downloaded a track or gave their best friend their favourite album to share awesome music. By all means I think piracy is wrong and if it were legal, it could potentially ruin the industry, at the same time if the content people made was good and people love it they've got nothing to worry about because enough people would buy it or even help support it via other means.

The media industry has been around longer than I've lived on this planet and people have always shared and heck some pirated and yet it hasn't hindered people from making millions, even people who start out small Piracy and sharing is only a recent obsession, I understand the internet makes piracy easier, hence we now have DRM. That I can understand, despite my dislike for it. But trading and sharing? It us too far, it seems people are just trying to follow the momentum of antipiracy to make the extra buck.

bond1
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 15:58
Quote: "The media industry has been around longer than I've lived on this planet and people have always shared and heck some pirated and yet it hasn't hindered people from making millions, even people who start out small Piracy and sharing is only a recent obsession, I understand the internet makes piracy easier, hence we now have DRM. That I can understand, despite my dislike for it. But trading and sharing? It us too far, it seems people are just trying to follow the momentum of antipiracy to make the extra buck."


This paragraph sums up my feelings exactly, very well put.

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Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 16:05
seppuku - i really dont mind sharing and trading, but i do mind it if it becomes a buisness - and goes so far as the retailer activly saying: "Oooh, oh no -dont buy a new game, buy this second hand one, half off - equal quality to the new one, oh and yeah the devs don't get anything for it - but you dont care do you, you just wanna play a game ehh? SO BUY THIS GAME."

"but i want to buy a new one"

"... BUY THE USED COPY."



Whose eyes are those eyes?
wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 17:02
The pricing model is flawed anyway. Look at how many people buy used vs new. Think about how many more copies they'd sell if the price was lower. Lower prices = more money for devs. I believe Seppuku mentioned steam sales, there's a good example of what I'm saying.

http://mattsmith.carbonmade.com/
Quik
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 17:13
oh yes - most certanly i do agree with that, however it seems more and more games seems to be moving towards 39,99 instead of 49,99 - which i'm very much on par with, 39,99 is much more reasonable tbh



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Mobiius
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 17:40 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 17:43
I believe that if games were digital downloads, they should be priced accordingly. I understand physical copies need to be produced, packaged, shipped, sold, and staff paid. But digital downloads do not have this overhead, therefore should be considerably cheaper.

People wouldn't buy second hand from shops if the price for games on the marketplace fell over time to a minimum value.

If I can buy a game from a shop for £5, 5 years after it was released, why is it still for sale on the marketplace as a digital download for £39.99? Surely it should be very much cheaper online to start with? At least this way the developers are getting the cash first hand, and consumers are not being robbed by high prices.


However, saying that, the developers have already made their money on a second hand game the first time it was sold. Many many more people buy new, rather than second hand so the developers are still making their profit. (We know this to be true as they're all still in business despite the booming second hand market!)


Personally, I generally hate most of the games that get released, but the ones I do like get bought new, on or close to it's day of release. I only buy second hand if it's an impulse purchase for an older game, or If I've damaged my original copy and need to replace it. (I've bought 3 copies of test drive unlimited for this very reason. Once on release day, and twice second hand.)

Hell, I've even been known to impulse buy new games I didn't even really like before. (cough cough Pro Evo 12 cough)

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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 19:24
I think it is true that all problems are caused by pricing policy. Developer and publisher spend a lots of money to make cool game and they want it back + profit, it is fair, but they trying to shake all possible money from players no matter what.

Also, did you ever though of how much EA spen on one game? Millions. They are covering wages, office rent etc etc. But honeslty, do you really feel that all that money spent with 100% efficiency? I am sure: if developers cut off 50%+ of employees, leaving only real workers, professionals, not lazy butts, they could make games cheaper and faster to produce. They spending too much money on "air" while producing, and we "should" pay for that "air".

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TheComet
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 22:20 Edited at: 15th Jun 2013 22:20
For anyone wondering where Nintendo is with all of this... The following image should explain why Nintendo doesn't even acknowledge Sony or Microsoft as their competitor.



TheComet


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mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 23:14
Heh, Nintendo is silently sits in the corner with cigar and grin, looking at "monster battle".

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Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 08:30 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 08:32
You have to take your hat off to Nintendo, they totally side-stepped the "console wars" and made a boat-load of cash while Sony and Microsoft fight over scraps.

I mean look at the N64, it was a great console but got whooped by the PSOne, did Nintendo get draw into a zero-sum arms race after that? Hell no!

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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 11:54
And it gets worse.



https://twitter.com/XboxSupport1/status/345774848653524992



TheComet


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Thraxas
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 13:04
Exactly like steam. And exactly as it already is in live with regards to your gold status and arcade purchases.

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 14:09
Quote: "Exactly like steam."


Are you sure about that? Getting VAC banned usually just means you can't join certain game servers.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 14:33
Vac bans are not being banned from steam. Your steam account can be banned and it has nothing to do with the cheat system. If your account is banned you lose all your purchases.

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 14:41
Oh right, yeah. I remember hearing of someone that had their account banned because Steam thought one of the non-Steam games they had installed was pirated.

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 14:56
http://www.p4rgaming.com/microsoft-confirms-xbox-one-will-only-work-in-21-states-in-the-us-at-launch/

I honestly, genuinely cannot tell if this is a parody article or not, the site seems reputable. It's farcical if it is true, seriously...

Quote: "Your mum plays COD?! Creepy..."


Women playing CoD is...creepy?

Quote: "@Wattywatts - If you intentionally destroy the disc then it wont work. I have DVDs and games that are over fifteen years old that still work perfectly fine. Stop splitting hairs. Your argument is invalid."


Play a game in a 360, and turn it on its side. It gouges a circle in the disc that can sometimes kill it outright.

MS didn't really make that common knowledge, like the RRoD, so I lost a copy of Halo 3 to that. Also I've had friends with younger siblings/pets that have knocked the 360 over, damaging the disc too.

One last point. Much like my irritation with the movie and music industry, the claim that games are running out of money does not stack up against the repeated year-on-year reports of "blockbuster takings on opening weekends," or "record-breaking first-week sales."

Somehow they are making more sales then ever, yet claim to be getting less money out of it. That's their inefficient finances at fault, not the consumer. They should stop attacking us for it.

I mean, there's a picture going round of Akon posting the bedroom on his private jet to his Twitter, with someone replying, "Y'know, I wouldn't feel so bad about downloading your music, you seem to have enough money."

I can't help but understand that view. I don't know about overseas, but here in Britain, the evil, baby-eating game reselling chains are all going bust. Gamestation shut down most of its stores, two independents in my town shut down, all that's left is a CEX and a GAME store, where there used to be loads more.

So if they aren't getting the money...who is?
TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 15:16
Quote: "I honestly, genuinely cannot tell if this is a parody article or not, the site seems reputable. It's farcical if it is true, seriously..."


I'm pretty sure it's true, yes. It's the way they handle game activation with the US law or some crap like that.

Xbox One games can only be played in 21 states.





Not sure how reliable that source is, as I can't find any official information from Microsoft directly.

On their website, they've listed which countries it will work in.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/pre-order-xbox-one/disclaimer


XBone is the biggest fail. They're handling us like children or something.

TheComet


Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery, but Today is a Gift. That is why it is called "present".
Quik
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 15:19
Quote: "Vac bans are not being banned from steam. Your steam account can be banned and it has nothing to do with the cheat system. If your account is banned you lose all your purchases.
"


just for the record - I can agree to this - Within certain circumstances. Not for cheating in a game of course, but for example, very bad behaviour in community - for example, bullying - should result in your account banned. Gold farming aswell


Quote: "Women playing CoD is...creepy?"


odd... My mom plays a lot of games x) Star craft, Counter strike, half life - recently she tried her hand at amnesia

Quote: "I mean, there's a picture going round of Akon posting the bedroom on his private jet to his Twitter, with someone replying, "Y'know, I wouldn't feel so bad about downloading your music, you seem to have enough money.""



That's still... no though - "he already has a lot of money, let's all stop buying his stuff - and get rid of his income."



Whose eyes are those eyes?
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 17:04
Quote: "odd... My mom plays a lot of games x) Star craft, Counter strike, half life - recently she tried her hand at amnesia "


It was Handy's quote, not mine.

Quote: "That's still... no though - "he already has a lot of money, let's all stop buying his stuff - and get rid of his income.""


I genuinely don't see how we can remove a multi-millionaire's income...I also don't really care if we do.

Guys like him thrive of the teenage girl demographic, a la Bieber and One Direction.
mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 18:14
Stop kicking xbone's corpse. It is dead. Deadly dead.

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Le Shorte
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 19:18
@TheComet
Quote: "We asked the representative why some states were chosen over others to which she replied, “Some factors Microsoft put into consideration included demand, the amount of complaints received from each state, internet quality, obesity rates, amount of Xbox Live users, quality of life and more. It was well thought out research and we stand by our decision to launch with only 21 states.”"

Yeah no. This is definitely satire. Good (and unfortunately believable at this point) satire, but definitely not true. If the author had left out complaints, obesity rate, and quality of life, I don't think I would have noticed it was fake though.

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xCept
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 20:17
Quote: "Vac bans are not being banned from steam. Your steam account can be banned and it has nothing to do with the cheat system. If your account is banned you lose all your purchases."


As someone who purchases games almost exclusively through Steam and have for years (with thousands of dollars in inventory) this is always concerning to me. Just the fear of being banned for something innocent like trying out a new mod that they may detect as cheating etc.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 20:19
Valve are pretty mod-friendly. If they haven't banned you yet, they're hardly going to do it any time soon.
Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 20:49
Quote: "Play a game in a 360, and turn it on its side. It gouges a circle in the disc that can sometimes kill it outright."

It sucks that you lost your copy of Halo 3 but that is not "wear and tear". Games either work or they don't, there is no diminishing level of quality; as handy said, "textures don't get rusty". If a game is defective it can be returned under warranty, whether it is a new or used copy. Shops that sell used games make a point of advertising their long warranties on used games so that people are not worried about getting a defective copy.
This does not mean defective copies do not exist or that discs don't suffer physical damage.

Game discs can, although very rarely, suffer defects that have a limited effect on the game without making it completely unplayable. I had a game that developed scratches that caused the audio in cut scenes to play out of sync or not load at all; the rest of the game was fine. In theory you could sell that copy of the game at a reduced price with the caveat that the cut-scenes are defective, but I've never heard of such a thing happening. Has anyone here seen a game for sale like that?

Quote: ""Y'know, I wouldn't feel so bad about downloading your music, you seem to have enough money.""

I empathize with the sentiment but it's not right to force their views onto others by pirating. People will use any excuse to justify piracy but it's not the consumer's prerogative to decide the price of a product or who deserves to get paid for their work.
If this guy thinks Akon has too much money then he should campaign for taxes to be increased, or simply refrain from buying or downloading his songs.

Quote: "So if they aren't getting the money...who is?"

Online retailers and digital distribution services.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 20:59 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 21:03
Quote: "Valve are pretty mod-friendly. If they haven't banned you yet, they're hardly going to do it any time soon."


You mean if they haven't 'detected' it yet, they won't do any time soon. As far as I can remember, when they detect cheating they don't enact the ban straight away (since that'd give the cheater an indication on what triggered the ban).

Quote: "If a game is defective it can be returned under warranty, whether it is a new or used copy."


Just like many physical goods. So what?

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 21:15
I spent months trying to find a good copy of Halo 2 on the XBox a while back, for nostalgia's sake. I went through a few copies that would simply stop working upon trying to load one level or another, mostly Delta Halo, it seemed. Used games do degrade, but mostly it's There or Isn't, as digital stuff often is.

Quote: "Online retailers and digital distribution services."


The latter pays the publisher, the former does a fair bit as well.

Also the Used Game industry is an interesting indicator of quality. Just look at the D section of any local vendor to see the stacks of Duke Nukem Forever left to rot...
Indicium
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 21:58
I really like Akon....


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 22:48 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 22:52
Quote: "And it gets worse."


Personally I think you should keep access to your games, but all online capability to your games should be denied. I can understnad them not refunding (you breached your agreement, so you can't exactly whine when you've agreed to those terms) but I think banning should at least leave your games playable.

Quote: "seppuku - i really dont mind sharing and trading, but i do mind it if it becomes a buisness - and goes so far as the retailer activly saying: "Oooh, oh no -dont buy a new game, buy this second hand one, half off - equal quality to the new one, oh and yeah the devs don't get anything for it - but you dont care do you, you just wanna play a game ehh? SO BUY THIS GAME."

"but i want to buy a new one"

"... BUY THE USED COPY."
"


I can understand that. I can understand why retailers like secondhand games, it helps them keep in profit. I know game retailers have struggled in the UK, it seems that GAME is the only surviving chain store and even they almost went under. I would suspect online stores have affected this as they have with other media stores (like HMV). I don't ever feel in GAME or Gamestation (which I think are all now GAME) stores I've been actively pushed to second hand copies, but there are at least good deals and frankly I do find them more attractive and yes I think people do tend to look in the second hand section more than 'new'. If the RRP were lower then I think I would buy more brand new games (I still buy games on release for full price, but I've got to be able to justify it). But it's difficult to take a punt when a game costs £49.99 or even £39.99, £15 on the other hand is a bit more preferable, but you're not going to see a new game going for that price. I did take a punt with Bulletstorm for example paying full price for it (secondhand copy was £5 less), however, I regretted it because it took me 2 days to complete and multiplayer wasn't substantial enough to keep playing. I was able to get a good price on trade in at least to rectify my mistake.

This is why I like Steam's approach because I don't feel like when I am paying full price that I'm paying too much and when there's a sale the developer still benefits AND I can make a punt. For example, I would never have bought Sonic Generations if it wasn't on offer because it has been a while since I've liked a Sonic release and I didn't regret the punt, despite the lame storyline and shoddy dialogue, the game was actually a lot of fun.

But it is a digital store, I don't think they could reflect the exact same system in a normal retailer, but perhaps if game developers and major game retailers started talking to one and another I am sure there could be a similar system developed that benefits the gamer, the retailer and the developer. Steam's model seems to work well, so I guess it would be a good idea to take inspiration from it.

Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:11 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 23:15
Quote: "Quote: "If a game is defective it can be returned under warranty, whether it is a new or used copy."

Just like many physical goods. So what?"

How much do we have to break this down for you guys before you will understand the difference?

@All - here's an interesting question: Is buying used games any more morally justifiable than piracy? Considering money does not go to the publisher/developer in either case.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:27 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 23:40
Quote: "How much do we have to break this down for you guys before you will understand the difference?"


All I'm seeing as a comparison is that games don't depreciate in value so much from being previously owned, which is a comparison one can make with many physical goods. But a used game is indeed worth less than brand new, especially if the quality of the physical media isn't so great (scuffs and scratches).

I know that the actual data itself doesn't degrade (apart from in more severe or unusual cases as you mention), but we're talking about games that are tied to physical media, rather than an account. And I do think the condition of the media is what matters, even with a long warranty.

Quote: "here's an interesting question: Is buying used games any more morally justifiable than piracy? Considering money does not go to the publisher/developer in either case."


That is indeed an interesting question. My response would be that by buying used games you are at least helping perpetuate the video game economy, even if the money does not go to the developers directly. I'd abstain from spending 70€ on a game that I can't re-sell, nor even lend to friends.

It means you'd be buying something that has no value beyond entertainment, which is sort of like renting a video game or going to the cinema (which brings me around to the point that a game that you don't really own physically shouldn't be so expensive).

At least now you can justify the high prices as a sort of investment, allowing you to sell the game on when you've played it, allowing you to afford another.

Quote: "But it is a digital store, I don't think they could reflect the exact same system in a normal retailer, but perhaps if game developers and major game retailers started talking to one and another I am sure there could be a similar system developed that benefits the gamer, the retailer and the developer. "


Perhaps, but remember that virtual (web) space costs a tiny fraction of real store space, and so traditional retailers have to sell the games at enough of a profit to cover costs. So I don't think we'll ever see the kind of deals we see with online retailers such as Steam.

If you ask me, we should do away with traditional retailers and do all purchases online; that way we can have both better deals, and the developers can earn more money. If we're going to talk about re-sale of used games hurts developers, why not also talk about how traditional retailers also hurt the developers?

[edited a billion times]

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:38
Used games are a valuable part of bricks-and-mortar shops, they keep them running due to the profit.

How much does MS stand to lose by p'ing these guys off? I suppose not all that much, but heck, now people will walk into a store and be actively sold a PS4, with the XBone being at best downlplayed, at worst demonised.

Because these people kinda depend on used games to remain in a job, to keep money flowing through the company.
TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:43
Quote: "How much does MS stand to lose by p'ing these guys off?"


Err, everything? "These guys" are what drive the game industry.

TheComet


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 00:27 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 00:30
Quote: "Is buying used games any more morally justifiable than piracy? Considering money does not go to the publisher/developer in either case."
When the game is pirated, no money goes the the developer whatsoever. When a game is traded, we assume one of the persons involved in the trading of the game paid for the game at one point or another, thereby the developer did get money. It also allows the customer to still have a monetary value over the game (license, rather) that they own. When the customer can't trade the game, buying the game causes them to lose whatever monetary value they owned that they spent on the game. That's fine but it's not the way purchases generally work in a conventional capitalist system. Maybe it's time for a change and we have things like this? Maybe!

While I agree with the rights of companies to do things like this (customers only own the license to use the game, not the game itself), I still don't think it's the right way to go about doing business.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 00:39 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 00:50
Quote: "@All - here's an interesting question: Is buying used games any more morally justifiable than piracy? Considering money does not go to the publisher/developer in either case."


I would say so.

Trading used games involves transferring a license from one individual to another. The person 'giving' the game ceases use of the product based on their license agreement whilst the person receiving it, will acquire the use of the product and the license alongside it. Licenses are what legally protect digital media when being transferred to an end-user. Some licenses may prevent that user transferring a license, usually it is the case with digitally bought media (like my copy of Silo 2).

With piracy, a license is not transferred, data is replicated. There is only one license related to that data, but many gain the use of it at one time and the person copying the data doesn't necessarily stop using the product too, so nobody here is being deprived of anything, except the manufacturer. Essentially it's 1 paid product suddenly becoming a million free products. When it comes to trading, the mathematics is completely different, it's always that 1 paid product, but it's transferring to another. It may mean somebody doesn't pay the manufacturer, it happens with everything that is second hand, regardless of quality or how much something has degraded or lack of manufacturer's warranty (even games have a warranty).

So when it comes to used games, transactions work exactly like any other used item. Yes, the developer doesn't get my money and doesn't necessarily feel the benefit of my purchase, but it isn't any different in that regard from any other second hand purchase, a manufacturer isn't necessarily going to receive payment. Manufacturers can even end up with an excess of stock that may either have to be sold cheaply or scrapped. This isn't necessarily due to second hand purchases, but them making more stock than sales. It could be due to over estimating the popularity of their product or simply having a large stock to accommodate for any demand. If they've got good business skills, they're not going to make a loss.

Heck, it's something even supermarkets suffer from and deal with, hence they have the 'reduced bin' (generally they produce an excess to make sure an item is always on the shelf). They need to shift old stock, so they can shift it cheaply, if it goes passed a date or they don't have the space for it, they have to bin it. Is it suddenly immoral for you to pay you friend 50p for his bag of crisps because you're hungry? It's a much more smaller example of second hand purchases, but it's 1 less bag of crisps a supermarket has to throw away. The example is seemingly insignificant, yet the same principles apply.

You can't really compare piracy to anything in the non-digital world, not unless we were capable of working miracles, if you could create 1000 Kitkats from a single Kitkat and distribute them freely you may get a cease & desist. Trading on the other hand, you can, because you aren't bound by physical restraints to trade digital media and to trade physical media (particularly as digital media can be distributed physically). So giving a Kitkat to a friend or selling it for 40p to the guy who didn't bring enough for lunch at work/school isn't exactly going to be considered immoral. Nor's the guy selling his pricey Jaguar to a bargain hunter because his wife wants something suitable for carpooling and he can't afford to 2 run cars.

Why should it matter if a game no longer played on my shelf isn't sold to somebody wanting to give it ago without forking out £40 to play it or having to go without because the game is no longer manufactured? It seems at the moment the game industry feels they're the one deserving special treatment or at least, are trying to see how much they can get away with.

Slow Programmer
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 01:15 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 01:16
Another strike against Microsoft. They don't want to do indie games unless you go through an approved publisher and of course share your profits with them.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-indies-to-self-publish-games

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 01:40
Saw this nonsensical view of the Microsoft future posted to Facebook. Might get a giggle out of some people. Hopefully this doesn't actually become the future, though.



Quote: "You can't really compare piracy to anything in the non-digital world, not unless we were capable of working miracles, if you could create 1000 Kitkats from a single Kitkat and distribute them freely you may get a cease & desist."


Bet you the fisherman and bakery conglomerates were onto Jesus darned quick after that stunt he pulled in Galilee.

A lot of fish and bread vendors lost business there I've heard.
bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 07:15 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 07:16
Quote: "Imagine if only one man bought a book, 1 book out of 10000 printed, and then gave the book to read all of his 1000 friends. Fair enough, right? And so does 9 other people. How many books were sold and how many people have read the book?"


That's exactly the point. We should immediately ban all libraries (and/or turn them into bookstores) and require anybody who reads to buy a new copy and be surveilled the entire time they are reading so we can make sure they are allowed to read that copy.

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TheComet
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 09:08
Quote: "That's exactly the point. We should immediately ban all libraries (and/or turn them into bookstores) and require anybody who reads to buy a new copy and be surveilled the entire time they are reading so we can make sure they are allowed to read that copy."


I hope that was sarcasm.

TheComet


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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 09:56 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 10:09
Quote: "I'd abstain from spending 70€ on a game that I can't re-sell, nor even lend to friends."

Your argument is invalid. You'd better say 'I low on money, my friends too'. We are talking about buying fresh games, right? So they are not rarity.

All games that I buy are mine, MINE, I can't understand why should I sell something that I bought, if it's good of course. And all I've bought is good. I just put it on the shelf for my children.

It looks like you all here are profiteers, willing to buy games to resell them, not to own. And to play them a little between the deals.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 10:24
Quote: "<Translation> mr Handy: I disagree, thus your argument is invalid"


I'm sorry, but you can't say my argument is invalid just because you have a different opinion. That's just not how it works.

Sure your parents may be willing to buy you whatever you want, but in the real world where you have to pay for things yourself you'll find that 70€ is actually quite a lot of money.

I know quite a number of people that aren't willing to spend that kind of money on a video game unless they know they can re-sell it or trade it in for their next purchase.

Quote: "I can't understand"


Exactly: you don't understand.

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Quik
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 11:03
Quote: "@All - here's an interesting question: Is buying used games any more morally justifiable than piracy? Considering money does not go to the publisher/developer in either case."


This is basicly what I was getting at. As i've said eariler - i dont mind trading between friends and whatnot - but selling it to someone who is making a buinsess out of it... I dont like the idea of that - nobody benefits from it, except from the retailer.. It feels wrong - and, to me feels even worse than piracy - because the people buying it get the legit copy of the game - so there's no reason to buy it from somewhere the devs get credit from it - it doesnt feel good to me anyway.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 11:15 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 11:17
I haven't followed the thread in much detail, but I really don't see why trading games is wrong because it doesn't give the developers money when you trade it, when the trading of any other thing you can buy like a car similarly does not give the manufacturer money. I understand there is the argument that the quality of a game remains perfect to a degree which is not so with a car. So, say there is a statue or something, if that statue is kept in perfect quality for a long time and then sold to another person, is it wrong that the sculptor didn't get any money from that? I don't think so.

Quote: "It feels wrong - and, to me feels even worse than piracy"
How? For example, when two people pirate a game, they both illegally obtain a copy of the game and don't give the company any money at all. When instead one of those two legally buy the game, and then trade it, they give the company money, they allow the trading retailer to make money, and they allow the second person to get it at a discounted price. And somehow piracy is better than doing stuff legally and trading?

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