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Community Competition / Community Competition #1 Discussion

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AndrewT
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Posted: 6th Jun 2009 23:38
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Quote: "Can I make a FPSCX9 game?"


What? This compo is over, and if you mean for the next one, then no, you can't.

i like orange
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BMacZero
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Posted: 6th Jun 2009 23:54
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From the rules:

Quote: "
Entries must be created with DarkBASIC Classic, DarkBASIC Professional, or DarkGDK C++ or DarkGDK.Net
No entries made with FPS Creator, 3D Game Maker or any other third party language/ game making system is permitted.
"




Diggsey: I have a spine and memory, but one memorable guy says he hates me. What am I?
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flashing snall
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 01:00
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pwn't.

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Jammy
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 11:13
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Congratulations to Jeffhuys, dvader and Dragon Knight.

I, like most people, thought dark coder would win, however I don’t think it is fair to call the judges bias. There were 3 of them and I don’t think all 3 would be out to get him. I believe that they chose the games they felt were best.

Perhaps some sort of published scoring system for the winners would help people understand the judge’s process better. e.g. graphics 7/10, replay 5/10, instantly playable 3/10, sound 9/10. You get the idea. Then the entrants would understand better the results. I know that you don’t want to slate any entry and I would only score the top few.

Daniel has offered in a previous post
Quote: "If you wish to discuss the competition with me, how you think it's progressed, idea's for the future, etc. I'm currently avalible on The Game Creators teamspeak server.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=150575&b=2"


and I’m sure he means it.

I don’t think Community voting is the best way forward, I think overall the judges have done well with nearly 40 entries, giving each a fair bit of time to play and review the top 10. Most community voters would not spend anywhere near that amount of time.

Anyway congrats again to Jeffhuys, dvader and Dragon Knight. Don’t spend all your winnings in one shop.

I will see you all in CC#2 and in the great words of The Hooded Claw "Ill get you next time".

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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 7th Jun 2009 19:41
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Quote: "Also it would be good to have some predefined criteria to score in

(eg. graphics, gameplay, originality, etc.)"


I completely agree with that and personally I think mine would have placed if they had done something like that, but I could be wrong. I also agree that maybe the judges might have been a little unfair to dark coder because everyone said he was going to win(even if just subconsciously)

All in all though, this was the first competition; It was bound to have some problems and I don't think we should really be upset with the judges. I enjoyed making my game very much and that makes it worth it. If you didn't, maybe your in this for the wrong reason.


DBPro, limited by the programmer.
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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 09:22 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 11:17
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I'm sorry that some of you were not very happy with the judging. However I assure you I, nor anyone else subconsciously, or consciously removed Darkcoder from the running just because he was Darkcoder.

It is true that Labyrinth won on the basis that all three judges voted for it. Being as it was the only game all three of us enjoyed playing enough to put into the top three, it was the only game that received all three votes. How else can you run a three person judging team? We all agreed very easily that Labyrinth should receive first place.

Darkcoders graphics were, as usual great. However I've been playing shoot em up's for almost 21 years, and Darkcoders was simply too much of a culture shock. I found aiming with the mouse and manoeuvring with the keys confusing and annoying. I guess I'm just too used to the R-Type and Blood money style. The game further frustrated me because there where long periods in the game where I'd press Continue, and die instantly, epically when something firing missile barrages was very close to the centre of the screen where I always appeared. To avoid this most shoot em up designers add in a brief period of invulnerability when the player reappears. You can see it on most games, bubble bobble, blood money, etc. I remember counting at one time, 26 continues before I managed to pull myself out of the situation, only to end up in a similar one a minute or two later. Which is far from the relaxing fun experience I expect from a mini game. Both Thomas and Keith also had their own reasons for not liking it as much as the others.

Mechaniser didn't make it, yes, because it wouldn't run on Keiths machine. I pushed to get it into the top three. However I was overruled by the other two, who said, that every other game worked perfectly, it wasn't fair to let mechaniser through when it had a bug. Because Mechaniser, Retroids and Darts each had two votes each, this I had to concede was fair.

I did ask Steve to give it an honourable mention in the newsletter but I guess he forgot.

In regards to having the community competition judged by the community. That was the original intent, to have an official competition run by TGC community members for TGC community members with TGC sponsored prizes. I left the community competition in the hands of various people over at least a 4 or 5 month period without anything of substance coming from it. I'm afraid the only reason we've had the community competition is because Rick asked me to take charge and just get it out there. Furthermore there's the issue of getting a voting system setup, and avoiding users signing up for multiple profiles to get an unfair advantage. While not everyone will agree with the three vote judging team setup, you have to admit, that while some may dispute our three opinions the competition did go through, and did arrive at a result. I thank both Thomas, and Keith for giving up their free time for this, and I thank everyone who entered into the spirit, by joining in.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 11:56 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 12:14
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Quote: "it wasn't fair to let mechaniser through when it had a bug"


Technically, it was because KeithC's OS didn't support the 64x64x32 bit icon on the launcher, which is hardly a 'bug' in mechaniser, and could be fixed in an instant by running the game directly... Point me out one of the top 3 that didn't have a single REAL bug!

As I said, it's a shame you didn't email me or something (It's not as though you were short of time, and I would've replied within a day)


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Morcilla
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 12:38
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Well, I could agree that Dark coder's Evo.war didn't win the competition, but as he asks, not good enough to even place?

Evo.war is a very imaginative (a ship that mutates) and well executed project (high quality graphics etc.).
Wathcing the game at a glance, I'm sure that everyone would think when least, 'wow that one is going to the top'.

I think that the judging rules have been too way simple, and that those rules or criteria were not explained enough.
Leave a game out because it has a bug? Must be a big one, I bet I can find bugs in every entry.

And what about the richness of a project. If the source code is going to be available, then it should be evaluated, taking into account how much it contributes to the community, applying most useful or new techniques along with its quality, aren't we here after all to learn how to write games?

So, back to Evo.war, it seems that its playability is questioned, however it over exceeds, in my opinion, any other area. I'm sure that some playability aspects can be tuned easily just tweaking the source code a little bit, so it just makes appear 10 bad guys instead of 50, but no one says anything about the extraordinary performance of the coding, being able to handle all those enemies and countless bullets and effects with great success.
(And we spend hours in the forum searching how to improve the performance of our games.)

The game is a great show by itself, it could even go commercial with just little changes, and I thought it would be the one for TGC's choice, simply because it is the one that better shows TGC's products capabilities... What could I say? Perhaps that, at least, they have been honest with themselves, but the applied criteria has been just (or it seems to me, with my respects) hey what could I play while eating this morning donut?
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jeffhuys
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 15:58
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@daniel

Can I use my voucher more than once?



You're the 'th to view this signature!
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dark coder
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 16:29
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Quote: "It is true that Labyrinth won on the basis that all three judges voted for it. Being as it was the only game all three of us enjoyed playing enough to put into the top three, it was the only game that received all three votes. How else can you run a three person judging team?"


By using a judging system that doesn't suck? This kind of judging system would only really work if you had 1 judge or loads; 3 people submitting lists of their best games leaves too much room for clashes or drastic changes in rank for what a judge may consider to be only a marginally better game than another. Submitting percentages derived from some set judging criteria would make far more sense and would prevent any such issues.

Quote: "Darkcoders was simply too much of a culture shock."


I hope you're not implying I lost 'points' because my shoot-em-up strayed from the norms of the genre.

Quote: "The game further frustrated me because there where long periods in the game where I'd press Continue, and die instantly, epically when something firing missile barrages was very close to the centre of the screen where I always appeared."


Wait a few seconds for said something to move, then spawn?

Quote: "However I was overruled by the other two, who said, that every other game worked perfectly, it wasn't fair to let mechaniser through when it had a bug."


What a joke. If it works flawlessly on 2 judges' PCs do you not logically consider that the 3rd judge's software or hardware is at fault? As he said, E-Mailing him would have made sense as it's not like all software is flawless, nor can it be tested on every setup.

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Dragon Knight
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 16:54 Edited at: 8th Jun 2009 17:09
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AGH! Diggsey, you found my bug :S, i thought no one would reach that secret level that has chuck norris in it. I tried to get ridd of him but he went to round house kick me xD

I did realized there was one small bug in mine though, when the ufo shot it did at some point crash, i dunno if i fixed that in the released version or not >.>

Anyway a side point I want to make. I enjoyed the competition and learned a few things here and there, for example i had never used shaders before, and was trying to step up my game . I know monk learned a few things as well, and heck I know i've got some good competition for the next competition now that i know what potential most of you guys have!

I'd never even heard of dark coder or Diggsey before this competition and I know now they have some raw talent . Heck i've even went back and looked at previous projects from most of the competitors admiring their work. The whole point of a friendly competition in my eyes is to bring the community more together, and I believe it has. If i went onto the work in progress boards / finished wip then I'd have more chance looking at their work now when i recognize the name.

Thank you all you took part, along with the judges. It did in my eyes bring the community closer.


http://www.hybridwolves.co.uk
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Tom J
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 20:22
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How frequent are these things going to be Daniel?

If you see a thread of mine in GDT, please don't expect it to go anywhere.
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flashing snall
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Posted: 8th Jun 2009 21:41
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Dats what I want to know too.

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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 01:52 Edited at: 9th Jun 2009 01:53
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I'm not getting into an arguement Darkcoder. Sorry you didn't win. But judges decisions are final, and at the end of the day, it wasn't just me deciding this. You've won plenty of competitions in the past, I'm sure you'll win again in the future if you wish to continue entering.

Please everyone, be respectful to the winners. Even if you don't agree with the decision, I'm sure you don't want to muddy their wins. Imagine how you'd feel if you read alot of posts saying you didn't deserve it. I, and the judges stand by our decisions.

Quote: "@daniel

Can I use my voucher more than once?"


I'm afraid the code can only be used once, type it in to subtract $100 from any order you place.

Quote: "How frequent are these things going to be Daniel?"


I don't know yet, I've not discussed it with anyone so far.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 13:53 Edited at: 9th Jun 2009 14:03
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Quote: "You've won plenty of competitions in the past"

You seem rather focused on this point, I really hope it had nothing to do with why he didn't even place this time.

Multisync - TCP Server/Client Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
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dark coder
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 14:01
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Quote: "You've won plenty of competitions in the past"


Irrelevant?

Quote: "Imagine how you'd feel if you read alot of posts saying you didn't deserve it."


Quite bad, luckily no one in this thread has said any such thing.

So will the judging system be fixed in the next compo? There have been countless variations to the system throughout all the compos and you should easily see which ones worked(criteria lists with points in various categories that gets published at the end) and which didn't.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 18:20
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If we can't get a good judging system (meaning categories which we will be scored in individually), and a good theme, I don't think I'll be entering the next one


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AndrewT
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Posted: 9th Jun 2009 21:55
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Quote: "Quite bad, luckily no one in this thread has said any such thing."


You didn't deserve it!

Wait, you didn't win...

i like orange
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Herakles
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 02:42 Edited at: 10th Jun 2009 02:48
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Normally, I'd say "stop being a sore loser" to people who say the things that dark coder is saying, but in this case he's absolutely right. For the next competition, there should be a larger number of judges. While it is rude and impolite to say it directly to one of the judges, it is true that the judging (the way Daniel described it) seems very unfair. To take away points from Mechaniser just because of a problem that is clearly related to the judge's computer and not the game is completely unfair.

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http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 04:00
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I'm afraid Mechiniser didn't run on all the judges machines. While all the other entries did. You can put that down to a hardware problem if you like. But at the end of the day, every other entry ran just fine. I dare say, if Mechiniser won, and I had told you guys that I allowed him to submit a new version so long after the deadline had passed, I'd be getting flack for that as well.

With every one of these competitions someone is unhappy, whatever the reason. It's always easier to condemn something in hindsight. Than to make the decisions when the moment is upon you. None of our decisions we flippant, they where all discussed in depth. The mechiniser issue was umong the most discussed. Again, I'm sorry if you didn't like the results. But we'd never have pleased everyone no matter what we said.
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Super Nova
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 04:11
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I am happy with the results and support the judges all the way. I see no problem with the three judge system.

No one seemed to have a problem with the judging system before seeing the results...

"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion."
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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 04:33
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Thanks Super Nova.

In other news I've just received authorisation from Rick to announce another mini competition, it will be handled on a community voting basis. The discussion thread is HERE
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flashing snall
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 05:06
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HAPPY DAYS! So is this a little experiment to see how the community judging will work?

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dark coder
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 08:33
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Quote: "It's always easier to condemn something in hindsight. Than to make the decisions when the moment is upon you."


It's hard to complain about a judging system that we have almost no knowledge of; one would assume the judging system would be similar to previous competitions as you did organize some of them or were at least a judge in them. If it was stated that an issue on any of the judges' PCs relating to their OS and otherwise not being an issue on most PCs caused an entry from essentially being barred from winning then I too would have compiled then.

Quote: "No one seemed to have a problem with the judging system before seeing the results..."


because other than the number of judges no one had a clue what the judging system was?

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flashing snall
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 13:42
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time to let it die.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 13:49
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Quote: "No one seemed to have a problem with the judging system before seeing the results..."


Actually, there was some discussion on MSN about the (lack of) judging system, but we couldn't really complain because we thought it was going to be revealed somewhere along the line...


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KeithC
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Posted: 10th Jun 2009 21:35
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I'm currently in military training for a few weeks; but I'd like to discuss my point of view when I return.

I have a rather normal Dell XPS that runs Windows XP (SP2).

-Keith
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KeithC
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 14:53
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OK; I got back a couple of days ago, but had a few things to do...as well as rest up.

First off; it was hard to judge a few of the games in the manner that I did...as I was constrained by the theme of a "mini-game". Evo War had it's issues (such as bullets that didn't hit a target collecting up at the edge of the screen at times, a menu for selecting a ship that I thought needed more polish, larger ships that were too slow to handle the eventual hordes of enemies without being destroyed instantly...over and over, etc.), but I believe it would make a great commercial venture as a "Full Game". The graphical quality was/is certainly there. The idea itself is fresh as well.

Although Mechaniser wouldn't initially play on my machine (which, as I said, is a run of the mill Dell); with help from the creator, I was able to play it. I am a fan of "The Incredible Machine"-type games, so I did like this one. Even though the graphics could use some work, the game mechanics (no pun intended) were definitely there. Unfortunately, by the time I got it to work...the comp was over.

As far as the games that did win go: I really liked the dart game, because of it's simplicity and the ability to pick it up and "go". I really think it would make a great "I-Phone" game as well. The Maze game was great as well; with the rock/paper (no scissors?) concept adding to the puzzles all about...although the background could have use some more work. The Retroid game was classic fun as well.

As far as the judging criteria goes; it was more of a "which game do you like best", rather than a list of defined criteria to go off of.

I know when I was doing the FPSC Level Design Comps, I had different criteria with a point value assigned to each one. Therefore, someone with weak art skills might pick up more points in the scripting category (for example). Then the points were rounded up, and the highest score would win. This method often had some surprising results. But it seemed to work well.

So, I would say in conclusion, that the theme of the competition (unfortunately) cut out a few great titles. I also really liked the FPS game that was made (ignore the fact that I'm an FPSC Mod); it was great fun (and it wasn't even made in FPSC).

Sorry that there seems to be some hard feelings on this one; I know everyone worked hard on each of their games.

-Keith
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wickedly kick it
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Posted: 30th Jun 2009 09:21
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Cant wait

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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 30th Jun 2009 11:40
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you'll only need to wait until tomorrow.

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